WEBVTT 00:00.340 --> 00:08.380 All right, some very recent news Donald Trump talking about potentially ending what he calls double taxation of US expats 00:08.380 --> 00:13.880 This could potentially mean an end to the US is very unique policy of 00:13.880 --> 00:19.220 You can check out, but you can't leave the tax system. We're gonna talk about that 00:19.220 --> 00:22.320 I'm gonna share with you an article from the Wall Street Journal came out a couple days ago 00:22.320 --> 00:26.860 And we took the time to do our own research and analysis on that 00:26.860 --> 00:29.200 We're gonna share comments from our own in-house 00:29.200 --> 00:34.440 What Michelle McCurry dubbed him at nomad countless live the tax terminator 00:34.440 --> 00:40.120 We got together and put our analysis together what this could mean for expats. It's just you me and my 00:40.120 --> 00:44.980 Barry Goldwater mug today. So let's start with the Wall Street Journal article 00:45.600 --> 00:50.440 October 9th Trump pledges to end double taxation of Americans abroad 00:50.440 --> 00:56.680 The idea is the latest from the GOP nominee that goes beyond extending the 2017 tax law now 00:57.280 --> 00:59.940 The 2017 tax law 01:01.260 --> 01:06.620 You could have read the Wall Street Journal in 2018 and I think 2019 there were articles about how that hurt 01:07.320 --> 01:08.880 certain expats living overseas 01:09.820 --> 01:10.380 so 01:11.160 --> 01:17.920 2017 tax law was not as great and Doug Casey and I talked about this at nomad capitalist live as you might think 01:18.560 --> 01:24.860 Dateline Washington Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump says he supports lowering taxes on US citizens who live abroad 01:24.860 --> 01:30.700 Marking a new attempt for the former president to win support from an often overlooked group of supporters now 01:30.700 --> 01:34.500 I get hit from both sides. He's become full maga 01:34.500 --> 01:37.520 I liked it when he was a real libertarian and on the other side 01:37.520 --> 01:40.840 I'm a crazy communist because I don't go all in with Trump on everything 01:40.840 --> 01:45.260 It does feel to me a month before less than a month before the election 01:47.000 --> 01:53.520 Really you just thought of this policy now. This is a citizenship pastakes citizenship based taxation has been going on 01:54.300 --> 01:59.300 Since the Civil War and by the what else what else came out of that was 02:00.280 --> 02:07.320 Birthright citizenship. You're born on US soil. You are an American. That's how I was an American when I gave up US citizenship 02:07.320 --> 02:08.520 It says it right in the form 02:09.580 --> 02:14.120 US citizenship was obtained by birth in the United States not that both of my parents are American 02:14.580 --> 02:18.780 and so, you know Trump was talking about that nine years ago and so hey 02:18.780 --> 02:21.420 You want to free Ross d'Albrecht? He said hey 02:21.420 --> 02:26.240 You want to do stuff? That's pro-Bitcoin that our team heard him talking about it Bitcoin 2024 02:26.240 --> 02:30.060 And now you want to end citizenship based taxation. Hey, this all sounds great 02:30.620 --> 02:35.340 You know where you've been happy to have converts not trying to be one of those guys who says, you know, you know 02:35.340 --> 02:36.200 Too little too late 02:36.800 --> 02:41.340 Does you know does a little bit feel like no taxes on tips? 02:42.140 --> 02:47.160 Now it's this. It's you know, hey, who can we get into the tent? Hey, listen, I'll take it 02:47.160 --> 02:49.380 The US has an unusual system 02:49.380 --> 02:55.880 That's right Wall Street Journal for taxing its citizens on their total income regardless of where they earned it and where they live making the United States alone 02:56.540 --> 02:59.360 among all major countries with such a rule and 02:59.940 --> 03:05.780 There was a rumor that Bernie Sanders had talked about ending this because it would fall under his we're the only country 03:05.780 --> 03:10.900 Country in the developed world that's still taxing citizens no matter where they live 03:10.900 --> 03:14.800 They're not using the roads and the bridges and so the US does have this now 03:14.800 --> 03:19.840 If you have active income and particularly if you're an entrepreneur, you can use the foreigner an income exclusion 03:20.560 --> 03:24.800 If you're living in another high-tax country, you can potentially use a tax treaty 03:24.800 --> 03:27.980 There's different things you can do to reduce your 03:28.820 --> 03:35.120 Income for folks like myself who did not want to move from one frying pan to another who wanted to go to a lower-tax jurisdiction 03:35.760 --> 03:39.860 Being an entrepreneur using the foreigner an income exclusion did that 03:40.500 --> 03:43.400 I could have I think continued to pay zero tax 03:43.920 --> 03:50.300 But in recent years not everybody can pay zero tax if you make over that for an earned income exclusion even in the business 03:50.300 --> 03:54.180 So active income you're gonna pay something, but it's a lot less if you move overseas 03:54.780 --> 03:56.240 Passive income is a different story 03:57.100 --> 04:02.720 Passive income, you know, they don't really exempt that so much so people who are in Bitcoin for example 04:03.280 --> 04:07.740 You know, that's why many of them give up their citizenship. It is pure unlike in my case 04:07.740 --> 04:11.200 It was you know, their case is pretty much. Hey, I just don't want to pay all this tax 04:12.300 --> 04:16.940 Other countries use systems that base taxation on where people live. So we talk about becoming 04:17.560 --> 04:19.140 What we call a tax non-resident 04:20.080 --> 04:24.420 Canadians Australians Germans they are making it more difficult. They're putting more tests 04:24.420 --> 04:28.060 They're being a bit more strict on what the rules are and how they're enforced 04:28.060 --> 04:31.820 But you can leave their tax systems while keeping your citizenship 04:31.820 --> 04:35.620 And then you if you want to move back to the country in the future as a citizen you can 04:35.620 --> 04:37.440 I think they will make it more difficult 04:38.000 --> 04:42.520 I don't know that they'll go full-scale us but they'll do something like that eventually some of them 04:42.520 --> 04:47.920 So essentially the article says an American living in Paris would have tax obligations to both france and the u.s 04:47.920 --> 04:50.720 Now they're not going to be paying you know 90 percent 04:50.720 --> 04:52.960 But they're going to have the tax obligations 04:52.960 --> 04:59.260 Though the u.s tax could already contains features meant to mitigate double taxation or french citizenry not residing in new york typically wouldn't pay 04:59.800 --> 05:02.140 Wouldn't oh france any taxes on u.s income 05:02.140 --> 05:03.340 Yes, that's correct 05:03.340 --> 05:06.640 And there are times when if you are an american and you pay a certain amount somewhere 05:06.640 --> 05:12.480 You need to top it up to the irs to the u.s. Which seems unfair, you know, you didn't you know again 05:12.480 --> 05:18.800 We help people move to pay zero percent tax five percent tax. We have some people now. Hey, I'll pay 10 or 15 05:18.800 --> 05:22.480 That's fine. I'm happy to pay something some still want to pay zero 05:22.480 --> 05:27.020 Those the places where it's harder to go but to tell kind of the average american expat 05:27.020 --> 05:29.040 You don't pay anything or sorry. You're paying 05:29.660 --> 05:30.900 25 30 percent 05:30.900 --> 05:33.900 Hey, you got to top it up a little bit to to be even with us 05:33.900 --> 05:37.780 That's one thing and that's bad enough, but you've got to file a return 05:37.780 --> 05:41.360 You've got to file reports for your foreign bank accounts if you've got a foreign corporation 05:41.360 --> 05:47.060 You've got to file all that paperwork with the u.s. Government. So it's not just the obligation to pay 05:47.060 --> 05:52.200 It's the obligation to file. It's the obligation to go through all the paperwork. We had one guy once 05:52.960 --> 05:54.520 Uh client many years ago 05:55.080 --> 05:57.860 With the structure he had it's like hey if he's going to make this move 05:58.600 --> 06:00.000 As an americans, you know overseas 06:00.520 --> 06:04.020 I think somebody quoted as $50,000 a year to do his taxes 06:04.020 --> 06:06.680 It was going to be that complicated for the kind of business he had 06:06.680 --> 06:10.640 And he wasn't you know, the guy wasn't making a hundred million dollars a year. I think he was making 06:11.280 --> 06:16.920 Three or four million dollars a year. So that's insane for a country. He literally didn't want to live in a single day 06:17.460 --> 06:20.920 So trump says according to a statement he sent to the wall street journal 06:20.920 --> 06:24.140 Quote unquote. I support ending the double taxation of americans 06:24.800 --> 06:26.300 Overseas or overseas americans 06:26.300 --> 06:31.780 I'm going to come back to how we may interpret that in a minute like his prior campaign 06:32.300 --> 06:36.080 Ideas to eliminate taxes on tips social security benefits and overtime pay 06:36.620 --> 06:41.980 Trump's latest tax policy promise goes beyond extension of his expiring 2017 tax cuts 06:41.980 --> 06:47.100 And the ideas he pushed during his first term as president and it's aimed at targeting a demographic 06:47.100 --> 06:50.160 My opinion and I know that most people 06:50.160 --> 06:56.200 Uh, maybe won't see why I'm saying this but again talk to Doug go watch my interview with Doug Casey 06:56.200 --> 07:00.500 I think we touched on this a little bit and then go back and watch my interview with Doug Casey in 2021 07:00.500 --> 07:02.660 Both done at nomad capitals live 07:03.620 --> 07:07.120 Um, and and we kind of talked about the fact that you know the right wing 07:07.700 --> 07:09.700 It's a little bit jingoistic these days 07:09.700 --> 07:12.500 And do we entirely trust the right wing 07:13.040 --> 07:17.740 To not want to go after expats because hey if the u.s. Is the best country in the world 07:18.400 --> 07:22.500 Who would want to leave only a no good rotten trader, of course 07:23.060 --> 07:27.380 All right, uh, I've been on fox business before I don't remember if I've been on fox news 07:27.780 --> 07:31.840 But you know, we get a few comments people send in like oh, you know, you're trying people to leave 07:31.840 --> 07:35.960 You're you know, you don't want to stay and fight. It's like, well, I don't want to live there to begin with 07:35.960 --> 07:38.040 No, I don't want to fight the the 07:38.840 --> 07:43.240 The goliath I know I don't um, I don't be happy something that these people 07:43.940 --> 07:51.040 Um, some of these political animals I worked in talk radio and and I saw people in their 70s never been happy a day in their life 07:51.680 --> 07:55.720 Uh, yeah, I do not want to end up like that if that's what stay and fight looks like 07:57.240 --> 08:00.880 Um, but I I I do fear 08:01.400 --> 08:08.140 Uh, that at some point that's what a right wing administration somewhere does now there are this is where culture comes into play 08:08.720 --> 08:14.600 Is if a country's culture is emigration in its history, I think there's a great there's a lot more understanding 08:15.540 --> 08:22.080 And so you have countries like ireland which are smaller and they have to be more responsive to their citizens in some ways 08:22.540 --> 08:28.240 And people did emigrate and so there's an understanding. Hey, these people aren't bad people. They're just emigrating for their own reasons 08:28.780 --> 08:33.360 Or I think cultures against smaller countries where people, uh, you know, where they had 08:33.360 --> 08:37.180 You know, like a portugal where they were trading all over the world. There's a greater understanding 08:37.180 --> 08:41.260 Not everyone's going to live here. The u.s. Is a rather isolated country. I think 08:41.800 --> 08:47.480 Canada and australia, which are you know are in that basket, which is why I've said I could see them implementing some form of 08:48.000 --> 08:52.180 Citizenship based taxation first because there's not an awareness of all these other places 08:52.180 --> 08:55.060 Perhaps the way you have in europe where you're a lot closer together 08:56.020 --> 09:01.080 So I I don't that that's my opinion. I'm not saying I I you know, I'm a capitalist 09:01.740 --> 09:05.280 I generally voted for right wing candidates unless I was protesting 09:05.900 --> 09:10.480 How bad those right wing candidates are when I was in the u.s. But eventually I realized the right wing is not going to 09:10.480 --> 09:14.020 Save you either and as I was talking to some folks in my family the other day 09:14.020 --> 09:18.180 They're like the country's too far gone for anyone to save it no matter how hard they try 09:18.760 --> 09:21.360 So that's my uh belief on this 09:21.960 --> 09:28.480 The article goes on and on uh one thing says a more expansive revision the tax code could open opportunities for wealthy 09:28.480 --> 09:35.360 Americans to move overseas retain their citizenship and escape some u.s. Taxes. Yes the same way that people in every other country 09:36.000 --> 09:36.920 uh get to do 09:38.340 --> 09:41.880 Again, I I think that a couple other countries are creeping into 09:42.480 --> 09:50.100 Making it harder to leave but the u.s. Is alone and you know, what's one way to test whether your country or your 09:50.980 --> 09:55.820 Any relationship you have if it's one versus a hundred and ninety five 09:55.820 --> 10:00.300 Or I guess in this case two Eritrea versus a hundred and ninety four 10:00.940 --> 10:01.520 You know 10:02.140 --> 10:04.780 Maybe you ought to listen to the other 99 percent 10:05.420 --> 10:09.840 And when you don't that says something about your culture. It's a culture of arrogance 10:11.300 --> 10:11.780 Um 10:12.500 --> 10:15.160 And so here's the main point. I'm gonna get into that 10:15.160 --> 10:21.120 What trump means by double taxation remains uncertain and the campaign officials offered no additional details 10:21.120 --> 10:24.020 About exactly what policy change you would try to push through congress 10:24.700 --> 10:28.660 I don't really care who wins. I don't have a dog in this fight 10:29.280 --> 10:31.340 um, again, I I've 10:31.340 --> 10:32.480 part of my 10:32.980 --> 10:38.300 Leaving the u.s. And eventually giving up citizenship. I am politically homeless and Americans have a really hard time 10:38.300 --> 10:41.760 Understanding that these days. I mean to go back to my days and talk radio 10:41.760 --> 10:47.000 You couldn't even back then and you certainly couldn't today have anything where you know, if you had a radio station 10:47.000 --> 10:52.360 It's not just trump trump trump trump trump or anti trump all day long the anti trump stuff never works on talk radio 10:52.360 --> 10:57.520 But uh, you know, if you if you're if you're not in lockstep anymore people are like you're a communist 10:58.540 --> 11:04.060 And I just look at this and I say this just feels a little bit like pandering. Oh, the democrats do it too 11:04.060 --> 11:05.720 Okay. Well, great that everybody sucks 11:06.320 --> 11:08.660 But here's the analysis from our own in-house 11:09.240 --> 11:12.520 What michelle McCurry called the tax terminator? 11:13.440 --> 11:13.880 um 11:14.440 --> 11:18.240 Donald trump has come out and stated he wants to end double taxation for americans 11:18.240 --> 11:24.320 What does our preliminary research indicate the statement can be a broad spectrum of things and as of now 11:24.320 --> 11:27.360 We don't have any specifics available as the wall street wall street journal says 11:27.900 --> 11:30.300 Trump's comments could lead to any of these 11:30.300 --> 11:33.420 Uh scenarios a through f 11:34.140 --> 11:38.460 Option a the end of citizenship based taxation all together 11:38.460 --> 11:40.760 So this is the policy where no matter where you live 11:41.280 --> 11:45.840 You at least have to file a tax return report all your bank accounts report your corporations report your trust 11:45.840 --> 11:46.660 It's laborious 11:47.200 --> 11:51.060 Maybe you don't owe anything due to any number of reasons we help people again 11:51.060 --> 11:53.820 We help americans lower their taxes a lot all the time 11:53.820 --> 11:59.360 But there's still the obligation to be on the hook even if you're getting lots of exemptions exclusions. What have you? 12:00.300 --> 12:02.460 So option a is they just give her the whole thing 12:03.040 --> 12:08.340 Given the wording of the comment trump made double taxation for americans living abroad emphasis on double taxation 12:08.960 --> 12:11.120 We believe this option is the least likely 12:11.120 --> 12:17.760 And do not believe the u.s. Will leave expats in tax havens like dubai or the cayman islands alone so easily why well 12:17.760 --> 12:22.760 I haven't lived in the u.s. For a long time, but you know back then you'd watch the political attack ads 12:22.760 --> 12:25.340 You know so and so is in favor of you know 12:25.340 --> 12:28.900 Giving more money to companies that ship jobs overseas 12:29.480 --> 12:32.800 And when you get into the offshore tax game, you kind of realized okay 12:33.400 --> 12:38.300 I kind of understand what they're saying, but they're overly simplifying it to make the average person not like that person 12:38.300 --> 12:39.600 Not not like that candidate 12:40.460 --> 12:46.700 And so I think it would be pretty pretty politically expedient to you pretty politically expedient 12:46.700 --> 12:51.600 Of either party to say you know what yeah those those those people in france 12:51.600 --> 12:56.720 We're going to leave them alone, but if you move to somewhere like dubai all bets are off or the cayman islands 12:56.720 --> 13:03.900 We're not letting we're not letting as the article the wall street journal says wealthy americans could be able to live overseas and not have to pay tax anymore 13:05.120 --> 13:12.760 Right again like everybody else does and in in in going along with you have to pay taxes for the roads and the bridges 13:12.760 --> 13:17.040 Even though they have roads and bridges in the cayman islands, and it's still zero percent 13:17.040 --> 13:22.120 But yeah, you got to pay for the schools. Well, you're not using any of those things anymore. So why would you pay? 13:23.600 --> 13:28.140 So option a we think is the least likely from our own research from the tax terminator 13:28.140 --> 13:36.000 Option b a sharp increase of the foreign earned income exclusion. This is how much you can earn in active income earned income, right? 13:36.700 --> 13:38.080 Are you doing the work? 13:39.260 --> 13:43.980 Basically they could raise that up and therefore, you know if you're a business owner or 13:43.980 --> 13:49.980 If a salary more money tax-free and this would be a good thing if they did it because 13:50.720 --> 13:57.080 If you live what a lot of our clients do in contrast with the average expat does you might be living a tax-free life 13:57.080 --> 14:00.120 And so therefore the more money that you're also not paying to the u.s 14:00.120 --> 14:05.740 That's zero on one side zero on the other side. That would be good now. How high are they going to raise it? 14:06.540 --> 14:08.300 Uh, you know probably not into the millions 14:09.360 --> 14:12.320 Um, but perhaps the system stays the same 14:12.320 --> 14:17.560 But the fve has increased substantially to provide much greater relief to upper middle class american professionals lawyers doctors 14:17.560 --> 14:22.260 accounts, etc some of them by the way don't qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion because 14:23.060 --> 14:23.500 um 14:24.120 --> 14:29.560 Their businesses are not truly businesses. They don't they don't fully qualify for the fve and high level workers 14:30.000 --> 14:32.860 Living abroad. Yeah, I had a friend who um 14:32.860 --> 14:36.460 Lived in Abu Dhabi made a million dollars a year was a u.s citizen 14:36.460 --> 14:41.260 He did not run that through a company because he was an employee. He couldn't they just pay him. Here's your money 14:42.640 --> 14:46.880 Um, and he was paying tax on 90 percent of that money as if he lived in the u.s 14:46.880 --> 14:48.780 Despite living in Abu Dhabi big disadvantage 14:48.780 --> 14:55.360 Uh, so option b is they exclude more money if you're a seven or eight figure entrepreneur. I doubt that's ever going to keep pace 14:56.140 --> 14:57.840 Um, but it could be more relief 14:58.360 --> 15:03.480 and quite frankly the restrictions on what you make above the fve and it's it's um 15:03.480 --> 15:05.680 You know, there are some restrictions there for sure 15:06.200 --> 15:12.920 Option c we might potentially see an exemption from cfc rules controlled foreign corporation rules for americans living abroad providing 15:12.920 --> 15:18.360 They meet certain conditions for example a u.s citizen entrepreneur becomes a bona fide resident of a nice country 15:18.360 --> 15:21.080 And this is what i've told you i've suggested this a few times over the years 15:21.720 --> 15:26.700 Uh, i.e a country with it which the ua e uh us. Hey the usa is a tax treaty 15:26.700 --> 15:32.800 So i've suggested. Hey some countries might kind of do like a back door of what the us is doing 15:32.800 --> 15:37.620 But they'll carve out countries they like so let's say, you know in france 15:37.620 --> 15:41.020 We talked about recently one of the candidates for was a president or prime minister 15:41.600 --> 15:47.360 Wanted to implement citizenship based taxation did not get in so fine. We will live to see another day 15:48.560 --> 15:51.440 But my thought was always that maybe a country in europe 15:52.180 --> 15:56.900 Would say okay if you moved with if you moved to other e u countries. We can't or won't bother you 15:56.900 --> 16:03.400 So therefore you could move to ireland or malta or cyprus and be a nondom if they included the um the broader 16:03.400 --> 16:08.720 You know ea countries you can move to switzerland do a lump sum you can move to poland for the lump sum 16:09.220 --> 16:12.560 Um, you can move to idly for the lump sum grace for the lump sum 16:13.120 --> 16:15.740 uh spain for you know their program 16:15.740 --> 16:18.140 Um and so theoretically 16:18.780 --> 16:22.900 You know somebody who has a european passport is afraid of this happening 16:22.900 --> 16:25.540 But their place to move would be within the european union 16:26.040 --> 16:28.740 Maybe that'd be more likely to stay an option and so now 16:29.340 --> 16:32.780 Uh our team is suggesting. Hey the us might exempt you 16:32.780 --> 16:36.040 Uh entrepreneurs and business owners from rules 16:36.040 --> 16:42.180 That include your companies in the equation if you move to a country with which they like and so that may be exempted 16:42.180 --> 16:43.160 from guilty 16:43.160 --> 16:48.860 Um, which is a whole new formula under the tax law on um, you know, low and intense, you know 16:48.860 --> 16:53.640 Low tax and intangibles and all that kind of stuff as well as sub part f which became broader 16:54.280 --> 16:58.220 Uh under the last tax law provided their businesses also incorporated there 16:58.220 --> 17:05.160 So it could be something where uh again, let's take those nondom countries ireland cyprus cyprus and malta 17:05.160 --> 17:08.580 Have relatively favorable corporate tax regimes 17:09.240 --> 17:10.900 Now depending on how it works 17:10.900 --> 17:14.260 You might be you might still have some of the same restrictions on how you use the money 17:14.860 --> 17:16.580 um because of their mitten spaces 17:17.280 --> 17:17.680 but 17:18.760 --> 17:19.160 um 17:19.640 --> 17:22.220 That could be one way that the us could say all right fine 17:22.220 --> 17:25.180 If you go to another country and you incorporate there like, you know 17:25.180 --> 17:29.360 Don't be shopping around would be option c you can't put your company 17:30.000 --> 17:34.020 In the cayman islands and then go and live in a nondom country and then never remit the money 17:34.020 --> 17:37.560 And you're essentially living on you know very very very low taxes 17:38.220 --> 17:40.400 But if you incorporate into place where there's, you know 17:40.940 --> 17:46.160 Five or ten or twelve and a half percent tax on your business and they're on our nice list 17:46.160 --> 17:47.740 All right, we'll leave you alone 17:49.380 --> 17:52.160 Now the challenge would come and play with some of the lump sum countries 17:52.160 --> 17:55.320 Maybe switzerland could work although it's a lot of work for certain people 17:56.120 --> 17:56.560 um 17:56.560 --> 18:00.160 Italy wouldn't work because italian corporations are a mess 18:00.160 --> 18:01.980 But the lump sum is a good deal 18:01.980 --> 18:04.820 So if you had to incorporate in the same place that wouldn't be ideal 18:04.820 --> 18:06.260 So you'd still be paying something 18:06.260 --> 18:08.760 But you'd have more places to live in 18:09.500 --> 18:14.600 And if you are the person whose wife will only move to spain, I guess that would well it wouldn't work for you because spain 18:15.400 --> 18:17.480 I don't know if they include the canary islands or something 18:17.480 --> 18:23.060 Anyway, the option c is you get an exemption on some of the taxes on your business to where you just run the business 18:23.060 --> 18:25.760 If it's incorporated there and the us could leave that alone 18:26.120 --> 18:31.780 Option d we could potentially see capital gains tax exemptions on investments made in the country of bona fide residents of 18:31.780 --> 18:34.980 US citizens abroad for instance a full capital gains tax exemption 18:34.980 --> 18:39.260 Drive from the sale of properties or certain types of businesses provided certain criteria are met 18:39.260 --> 18:42.780 By the way, do you know who did renounce his us citizenship? 18:43.620 --> 18:45.060 purportedly for tax purposes 18:45.060 --> 18:48.780 former uk prime minister boris johnson who sold 18:48.780 --> 18:54.340 Uh a property in london, but he was born in new york and he therefore had a us passport 18:54.900 --> 19:01.000 The uk exempted his sales his primary residence and the us said well, uh, no one else is taxing that you're our citizens 19:01.000 --> 19:04.680 So please, uh, please send us the money and he said how ridiculous that was 19:05.320 --> 19:11.200 I think eventually it was surmised. He paid and then he renounced his citizenship. That's my understanding of the situation 19:11.700 --> 19:17.940 Uh, and so could the us say if you live in a country as a bona fide resident? That's a that's a term that's 19:17.940 --> 19:21.900 You know part of some of these equations. Uh, we're not going to tax you on that 19:22.440 --> 19:25.720 But would they say hey, you're a bona fide resident in 19:26.250 --> 19:27.640 uh tax friendly malta 19:28.700 --> 19:29.160 but 19:29.720 --> 19:33.260 Um, we're not going to exempt those dividend free stocks 19:33.940 --> 19:34.900 in singapore 19:35.540 --> 19:41.180 Uh, that's option d would be where you live. You might get some exemptions with that exempt capital gains on bitcoin 19:41.780 --> 19:47.300 Would seem perhaps not now. Maybe if you hold it in an exchange in that country, I don't know how that would work 19:47.300 --> 19:52.040 Uh, but option d could be some capital gains tax exemptions. That doesn't sound too good 19:52.040 --> 19:56.100 Option e might be us citizens who moved in nice countries again 19:56.100 --> 19:59.820 i.e with a tax treaty so countries that aren't taxing zero 20:00.300 --> 20:05.500 fully exempt from us taxation or at least to a large extent and then option f was a combination of 20:06.020 --> 20:07.620 Uh, the previous four options 20:07.620 --> 20:13.580 So it could be you get more foreign and or nicom exclusion and they exempt capital gains where you live on certain assets 20:14.100 --> 20:16.480 Maybe you sell a business in the country of residence 20:16.480 --> 20:20.760 And you pay some tax there and the us doesn't make you top it up or you sell your house 20:20.760 --> 20:25.000 And there's no capital gains tax after x years and so the us leaves you alone 20:25.700 --> 20:25.960 uh 20:26.640 --> 20:28.000 Some version of that 20:28.700 --> 20:29.740 in conclusion 20:30.420 --> 20:35.960 Our team and this is our opinion just from what we've read and kind of dug a little deeper. Um 20:36.680 --> 20:37.580 You know, we have 20:38.420 --> 20:42.680 You know a couple people in house who are you know trained in this area 20:42.680 --> 20:45.120 And of course we have a network of experts we work with 20:45.120 --> 20:51.000 But in conclusion, it is unlikely in our view they say that even under donald trump 20:51.000 --> 20:56.340 The us will completely abandon citizenship based taxation. However, we could see increased exemptions 20:56.340 --> 21:01.120 And opportunities to utilize tax treaties proper tax planning may be needed 21:01.120 --> 21:06.320 Probably will not mean things are as simple as just moving to another country. And again, even if you're leaving canada 21:06.320 --> 21:09.820 It's not just as simple as just move to another country. There's still planning involved 21:09.820 --> 21:12.640 Even when there isn't citizenship based taxation 21:13.200 --> 21:17.700 Uh one thing to point out here is the us may potentially reconfigure the exit tax 21:17.700 --> 21:20.840 So that is triggering people to part the us as opposed to when they 21:20.840 --> 21:28.580 Uh renounce us citizenship i.e. again, how canada does it? So be careful what you wish for to some extent because if you are able to get out 21:29.260 --> 21:34.300 It's going to be interesting to see how good are they going to make any of these restrict any of these 21:34.660 --> 21:36.460 You know improvements to double taxation 21:37.280 --> 21:41.760 To where maybe they say, okay, listen, you can leave and we're going to give you more exemptions 21:41.760 --> 21:44.560 And we're going to give you certain exclusions if you move to the right place 21:45.060 --> 21:50.340 Uh, but hey, when you leave you have to pay the exit tax then because we're going to have a new category of taxed on residents 21:50.340 --> 21:54.760 So the idea that you should just sit around in the us waiting forever 21:55.940 --> 21:58.740 Um is wrong and what I would suggest is 21:59.480 --> 22:01.300 That might move americans 22:01.300 --> 22:04.320 Into more of a plan a camp than a plan b camp 22:04.320 --> 22:08.000 We've had a lot of americans who say get me the second passport get me the third passport 22:08.000 --> 22:11.320 Get me a house that I can move to i'm going to start getting comfortable with that 22:11.320 --> 22:13.460 And if things ever get squirrely enough 22:13.980 --> 22:17.000 I might just have to push the exit button on the whole place 22:17.960 --> 22:20.080 Whereas if you're saying hey, I can move overseas 22:21.140 --> 22:26.900 Um, and I can get you know, I can reduce my taxes more easily as an american under this law 22:27.440 --> 22:29.520 Uh, the goal would be to move as soon as possible now 22:29.520 --> 22:33.800 The goal is always to move as soon as possible if you're trying to reduce tax because the longer you stay in 22:33.800 --> 22:38.960 The bigger the exit tax will be but if it's not based on expatriation and giving up your citizenship 22:38.960 --> 22:42.480 Based on simply moving abroad under one of these options or something else 22:43.040 --> 22:46.740 Um that potentially brings the obligation to pay an exit tax forward 22:46.740 --> 22:50.360 In which case you'd want to get out sooner than later to minimize that exit tax obligation 22:50.360 --> 22:54.860 So there's a couple good things quote-unquote about us citizenship based taxation 22:54.860 --> 22:59.280 One is you don't really need a tax resident somewhere else everyone views you as an american taxpayer 22:59.760 --> 23:00.960 Uh, and the other one is 23:01.480 --> 23:05.240 You know, you have a little bit more flexibility because of that about how you you know 23:05.240 --> 23:08.240 What you've what you've got to do to exit the us tax system 23:08.240 --> 23:11.960 And so some of those benefits may go away if the us allowed you to get out 23:12.480 --> 23:15.400 Our view we'll see what happens. We'll see if Trump gets elected 23:16.060 --> 23:20.540 Our view is that citizenship based taxation will in some form continue 23:21.120 --> 23:24.660 And for me, I mean, that's just again part of the culture. We own you 23:25.820 --> 23:31.500 And I I I pushed back more on the culture than the taxes because I I said this repeatedly 23:31.500 --> 23:37.720 I paid zero most years. I think I paid eight or nine thousand dollars one year and other years 23:37.720 --> 23:43.120 I was out. I paid zero. Um, I didn't have quite as unrestricted use of my money 23:43.960 --> 23:45.700 But didn't bother me at the time 23:46.260 --> 23:49.920 Because I was able to do things and I look back and say, you know 23:49.920 --> 23:54.500 I look back in retrospect and say it was a little bit messy compared to how I do it now 23:54.500 --> 23:57.680 But back then it's like whatever. It's messy. It's the price of being a u.s. citizen 23:57.680 --> 23:58.680 I wasn't paying 23:59.440 --> 23:59.840 um 23:59.840 --> 24:04.160 For me to think it's kind of offensive really offensive actually is 24:04.600 --> 24:08.000 Even if you leave our country, we're going to punish you because hey, why would you leave? 24:08.140 --> 24:09.060 Is it the best place on earth? 24:09.780 --> 24:15.020 So we're gonna, you know, so even if even if they even if they 10x the foreign earned income exclusion to over a million dollars 24:16.140 --> 24:17.920 Number one if you make more than a million dollars 24:19.420 --> 24:20.140 Okay, cool 24:21.100 --> 24:21.820 number two 24:22.480 --> 24:25.020 Is it about the numbers or it's about the principle 24:25.460 --> 24:29.160 I happen to think life's about principles. So that's our view on this 24:29.160 --> 24:33.440 We always like to take a couple days and actually do some research rather than just talking about it 24:33.960 --> 24:37.200 That's our view. I think Americans, you know, want to continue to have a second passport 24:37.680 --> 24:40.960 But I think that the equation is if you think there's any chance that this happening 24:42.300 --> 24:45.520 Where are you at financially now and where are you going to be at financially five years from now? 24:45.600 --> 24:50.320 It may be better to have some kind of plan a ready, which means you're going to be not living in the u.s. now 24:51.240 --> 24:52.240 Or in the near future 24:53.460 --> 24:54.820 To to take advantage of this