Manero being under attack unite as a community of digital cash believers and
They can't just be on Twitter all day
We actually have to have to come out of our caves a little bit not everybody now recommending that you know
Though it depends on your threat model, but I do think it's important that we come out of our caves a little bit
real meet each other realize how amazing this community is how it's all all very
ethically
Aligned people that are just looking to use money freely and to remind ourselves that we are the good guys
Manero talk is sponsored by cake wallet a trustless open source wallet that gives you the keys to your crypto
invoice donate and trade your manero with peace of mind peace of cake and
By stealthy X an instant exchange where privacy is a top concern
Go to stealthy X that IO to instantly exchange between manero and
450 plus assets without having to create an account or register and with no limits
Making stealthy X a simple way to purchase manero with crypto anonymously
Manero talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you and
Supporting us is easier than ever by typing in manero talk crypto in your manero calm or cake wallet send address field
to send us a tip
This week on manero talk in
This episode Douglas human host a Twitter spaces session with the community concerning manero its current challenges and the upcoming
Manerotopia 24 conference in Mexico City
Doug emphasizes the importance of digital cash the manerotopia event and the need for the manero community to unite in response to an
Adversarial environment notably referencing maneros delisting from Kraken in Europe
Vlad Castea an early Bitcoin or discusses maneros importance in preserving privacy and draws parallels with other privacy
Technologies while Aaron Day talks about his experiences promoting manero and privacy coins in workshops across the US
We also had Tatiana singer songwriter who was a peace and liberty activists join us in addition to many more guests
Various privacy tech projects and philosophical concerns about privacy regulation and technology are explored throughout the spaces
Manero talk starts now. All right. Yeah, it looks like you guys can hear me. Okay. I'm gonna break start bringing up the speakers
Vlad I think I just added you as a co-host. All right. I think we got some people glad what's going on, man
Hi, it's good to be here. Thanks for jumping on appreciate it get a let's see if we get a couple other people to jump up on stage with us
I just wanted to
You know, basically get people excited about manerotopia
We're just literally a well little little more than a month away
It's gonna come really fast
Sunita and I are working our asses off over here trying to finalize things
While juggling our other manero projects
all very fun stuff slightly stressful not gonna lie but
enjoying the ride
And it's it's all that all that good stuff juxtaposed to
Manero being under attack Manero was recently delisted from Kraken in Europe
So I guess I wanted to focus this space around
Number one talking about the environment maneros currently in this adversarial environment
Kind of tying that into why things like manerotopia conference are so important this idea of
You know freedom of assembly getting people together to
Share ideas and to build out a digital cash economy. I think it's very important that we
You know you unite as a community of digital cash believers and
We can't just be on Twitter all day
We actually have to have to come out of our caves a little bit not everybody now
Recommending that you know though it depends on your threat model
But I do think it's important that we come out of our caves a little bit real up meet each other realize how amazing
This community is how it's all all very
ethically
Align people that are just looking to use money freely and to remind ourselves that we are the good guys
So I wanted to get everybody together today to talk about that and to get people psyched about the manerotopia conference
So hopefully maybe spread the word a little further. I do think manero is also under attack in that way in that regard as well
It's not it's not so easy to get the word out about things
I do think there there's some silencing that's going on where you it's it's it's up to us as a community to
Organically promote and spread the word because nobody's gonna be nobody is going to do a force of anything
They're going to try to
The wart our abilities to spread the word about manero so
trying to cover those those base of concept concepts and
Anybody that would like to speak we could bring you up
I'd like to get as many of the speakers as I can up will be put a we invited a few people today
I invited flat and Vlad invited
He will be actually hosting manerotopia invited Aaron
I've put a couple of other invites out there seeing if you get a couple of speakers from the conference to jump up
But yeah, Vlad I guess I'll start with you
What's going on man? What do you what do you think about kind of the the state of manero this adversarial
Adversarial environment are you are you shocked? So are you enjoying the fight?
What's what's your take on the current climate in manero lands? I?
Don't know man. It's nothing that I did not expect. I
met Phil Zimmerman for the second time and I listened to his story and I'm very much aware of what happened to him and
When she launched PGP into the wilds, he published that on the internet. He open sourced it
People were expressing then by people. I mean feds mostly
But they're expressing concern that it's gonna be used by Russians and the enemies from the Cold War and
I think it's pretty much the same scenario that's being played out right now
Except that there isn't only one guy who is gonna be putting up the fight
There's an entire community and there's nothing wrong with privacy. Think about it. Like it's so absurd to expect
The norm to be
Transparent it's I think Phil Zimmerman uses this metaphor of writing your letters as postcards
Instead of putting everything in an envelope and sealing it so that there is some privacy to your message
You just write it on postcards. So everyone who's gonna pass that message along until the receiver is gonna be able to read what you said
So it's ridiculous. I think in modern terms. It's like
Publishing all of your private emails as tweets to people so that everyone can make fun of your
Potentially judge you for whatever it is that you're expressing
Privacy is just part of
What makes a civilization successful and thriving and
We just have to get used to the fact that we can
Create currency by mining get with our computers by respecting some consensus rules
And then we can send it to anyone else around the world and spend it. However, we please
Of course, there's always the risk of the end point
That's going to be spending it physically in the meat space and that's where governments can intervene
Like there's no way you can stop someone from sending money
But if they want to spend their money on something, I mean people say, you know, people use whenever to buy
Guns or whatever in places where it's illegal. I'm like, you know for that gun to get delivered
You need trucks. You need some logistics in place
So why doesn't the government take care of these instead of trying to look at the means? It's very
shallow it's
Sort of the low-hanging fruit that they're trying to hunt by trying to shut down privacy
But it's a fun fight and it's something that I wish to see in Bitcoin
And I'm gonna keep pushing for that and I'm also working on this magazine about privacy
Which will get launched next month at Monerotopia. Hopefully
It's a it's in a pretty good state. I think I'm
Working actively to get everything done on time about five or six articles are ready
I've received about 24 if I'm not mistaken and
They're on the topics of privacy in general some philosophical considerations about how we can build our own country. There's also
Something about Monerot that was written by don't trace me bro. I think he might be here or he might be listening
There's an article about Zeno. There are a couple of articles about Z cash
There's even something about cash fusion on Bitcoin cash. I think it's very diverse and interesting and I'm very
humbled to be in the middle of this operation and be able to
project and
Basically give these messages the larger audience. That's gonna enjoy and hopefully learn something new from everything
That's happening because honestly, it's a
Nice open-source space where everyone is building and everyone is working towards the same goal
but with different means and different tools and
It's always interesting to discover how others are trying to achieve it. Oh
Man you brought up so many amazing things that I want that I would like to get into or respond to
First off Phil Zimmerman, we had him at the first Monerotopia conference in Miami. Well, he was there
He was there virtually. I don't know if you're aware of that, but it was it was it was epic and we had a great
It was basically a Q&A
So everybody was able to everybody was able to ask him questions and you know a lot of the questions that were asked
We're kind of around
What do you think about Monerot and how it's gonna have to handle essentially what you handle the PGP?
What I was unfortunately surprised to hear from Phil Zimmerman at that time was that he had some concerns
With the untraceability of Monerot not in terms of that
It's you know could be traced in any way just this concept of quote-unquote privacy coins that can't be traced
You would think the creator of PGP and our cypher punk would
Would be perfectly alive of narrow not that he wasn't obviously I think he's he loves the concept of digital cash
But for things, you know this idea that it can be used for quote-unquote nefarious purposes like
Avoiding taxes or money laundering or things like that. He had some concerns
He gave it gave us some status status vibes, which was a little a little disheartening coming from
The you know someone that we all look up to so much and I do very much look up to him
You know even even in spite of his viewpoints there is very genuine person and
He singlies and in it for all the right reasons. I see we got Tatiana that just joined us guys
Just you know a reminder. This is this space is all about
Getting people excited for the Monerotopia conference. So we're having some speakers check in
We have Vlad who is gonna be hosting the Monerotopia conference super excited to have Vlad by the way
I think he's the perfect perfect person to be a Monerotopia host
Monerotopia is all about digital cash and building out a digital cash opt-out community and
being open to different technologies that are in this space and I think Vlad has done a great job of
kind of sticking with those principles and exuding those principles and
and
kind of always approaching things from a
Technological and ideological standpoint and isn't any is it isn't religious about any of this stuff. So
Monerotopia is from what I'm told is kind of like what Bitcoin conferences used to be and that's what we that's the theme we
We try to go with
Vlad you had me thinking a bunch of other stuff. So yeah, the Phil Zimmerman thing and you know what maybe maybe maybe I
Will try to reach out to him. Maybe it would be cool to have him remotely again
He he charges he charges quite a bit the first time and I got him to accept Monerot, which is pretty cool
But we actually became quite friendly. So maybe he'd be maybe he'd be down to do it
For a cheap price so we could you know, get him get him back involved
Let me back
Was that what I?
Sent good luck with that because I happen to know I'm not gonna say it publicly
But I know how much the people in Frankfurt paid and it's not
Cheap but it's worth it. I guess because people get to interact with him and he's a very nice person
He doesn't just go and do his keynote and then go back to his hotel
He actually spends time in the hallways and speaks with everyone as the questions
It's just that I know I don't want to get too much in this
Eleanor Roosevelt sort of
Talking about people
Conversation it's just that she gives me the impression that she already fought the fight and maybe that it took a toll on him and
The fact that he is asking us
Basically, what a fed would ask us is just some sort of practice. He's helping us spar
He's a sparring partner. You know, she is trying to make us think a bit about the problems
so that we're able to come up with
actual good answers when
Or if we actually have to defend this that's actually a great way of looking at it and I
Tend to agree with you. I think that's probably probably what his
Where he's coming from on that
I'm super excited about the magazine that you're putting together and that you're launching it at Monero topia
That's really cool. Are you gonna have physical copies that you'll be handing out or selling or?
That we could put in the swag bags. How's that? How's that up working out?
If you can help me with the logistics and you can print some of them then we can definitely have them in the swag bags
I can get it. Yes, we'll definitely not actually travel with them. It's very difficult. They're heavy and
I looked at you make that part of the part of the swag
You know, we could so we can make the part of our swag budget
so helping you with printing those out and
Giving them out because they sound like they'll be an amazing resource. Is there anyone anyone from?
That you know from the magazine that that's written an article or
Topics that you think we should try to get involved last minute here in Monero topia anything but I know okay
I know I asked you this in DM and I'm putting on the spot now, but I actually quite curious what your thoughts are there. I
Have like 24 articles right now and
I'm still waiting for a couple of them. I'm your talk
He said she was gonna send the piece also and Ellie Ben Sasson was one of the people who brought
Zero knowledge proofs into the mainstream. She was part of the Zcash team and now he's working on
something that's called Stark wear and
She also said she was gonna write something. I do have articles from
The electric coin company. I have something from Zeno. It's very hard for me to pick favorites because I went through all of them
I have to say that they're all pretty well written
To help you because I know that your podcast is sponsored by cake wallet
There's also something about cake wallet and their philosophy of bringing privacy in places where it does not exist by default
And the fact that they support silent payments for Bitcoin and M web for like coin and it's pretty cool
It almost yeah
I guess basically what I'm asking is like so obviously we have Zano involved the Zano team will be there
We have dark five so mirror will be there. We have
You know a bunch of other privacy tech projects about but do you think from the out of your articles?
Do you think there's anybody else we should try to get perhaps as a speaker?
Even if remotely to kind of cover cover a hot topic in the privacy tech sector that we might be missing
All there are a couple of articles I really like but I'm not sure of these people want to reveal themselves
Okay, I received some submissions under pseudonyms
And they're fine with it. They don't even know so I proposed to them as a way of
Compensation I guess that they should put a donation address at the end of the article most of them did not and they're not really interested
No, but it it is interesting to see how they benevolently and
They contributed to this project without any expectations other than just getting published
Yeah, so they want to be heard they don't care about money, which I think is a good way to present a project like Monero
They're they're true sector punks are crypto-anarchists, right? They do it for for the love of the game
The love of disruption
Yeah, no, well, we could definitely have you know anonymous remote speakers as well actually have at least one this year that will be
Anonymous remotely
Let me let me spread it around. Let's let's start to get some other people up here as well Aaron. How's it going, man?
It's going well, can you hear me? Yeah, we hear you we hear you
Thanks, thanks for jumping on just trying to do a little little spaces here to help promote copper
It's only a month away and we're talking about
You know, they kind of clerk current climate that Monero is dealing with which is the one that we've all been obviously
effecting and dealing with the ready for some time
But it seems to be getting warmer and warmer in terms of the heat that's being put on on the Monero project and Monero users
So, yeah, what's what's your take man? How are you viewing things right now?
So my take is I mean I've been traveling for the last four weeks doing
Workshop, so I've been in I did one in New Hampshire. I was in Connecticut
I was in DC not for a workshop and then was just in New Jersey
And when I do these workshops the whole purpose is to explain to people what the threat of CBDCs is and
Then to onboard them to privacy coins as a solution
So when I do these workshops, everybody gets a Zeno wallet and some Zeno and a cake cake wallet and some Monero
And then I show them how I live on crypto
Golden silver which I've been doing since
2019 and the thing is my audience is and this is something that I'd love to talk about
Adminaritopia we really need to cross the chasm here. There are categories
Groups whether it's health freedom people food freedom people second amendment people people that were radicalized by COVID people that were
are now radicalized by
Inflation and starting to ask what the Federal Reserve is who are open to the idea that
We need an alternative that we're not going to vote our way out. We're not going to fix the Federal Reserve
and which is part of my presentation that is that
eight-based money never works it has a zero percent success rate and
There are a couple of things
that are interesting and shocking to
The audience one is the fact that
Bitcoin is not anonymous and that it can be trapped and has been trapped and that people like
Ross Olberg Ian Freeman and Roger veer and others are
kind of on the other side of this and so
Bitcoin is not the answer to CBCC's and then obviously I am now only
promoting privacy coins and
There's an interesting dynamic going on which is that older people
Understand the value of privacy
They understand I mean that you know some of the readings familiar with the fourth amendment
Some of them are aware of you know the idea that privacy is an inherent right
But then you look at these statistics feel like this
Cato poll that shows that 35 I believe of gen z
Are okay with the federal government installing security cameras in the home to monitor for domestic violence
So we have this
problem of younger people that are more facile with tech
Don't value privacy and older people who understand privacy
Are less sophisticated with the tech and so that's kind of the state of where we're at
Unfortunately cake pay or excuse me cake while it is is easy enough. So we really are on boarding people and I'm
I'm grateful for that people are actually really excited about that, but we need to figure out how to market
the fact that
Privacy is for everyone and
And these groups food freedom and all of the groups and merchant categories that were targeted by operation choke point
And all of the people who have already been debanked these people are are right for us
And we should be focusing on aggregating them
and building easy to use point of sale systems and
wallets because there really is demand and it's not the demand that might have been there
Say seven years ago, but we also need to figure out how to sell
Privacy because basically, you know, the government likes to
Portray that if you're using a privacy coin, you must be involved in money wandering
Or terrorism and of course we all know that it's governments and state actors using fiat currency
That are actually engaged in these activities
But I think that there's something to be said about letting people know that
What's the dark market today? What they're doing today will be the dark market tomorrow because that is
Clearly the direction
Technocracy is going it either whether it's banning gas stoves
Banning your ability to buy meat banning your ability to buy raw milk
Things that people take advantage of today that are legal will very soon be illegal
And so people should really get on board and we should try to work together on messaging because there's a
A real wide audience out there that I think will be receptive to it
All amazing points man, uh, totally agree with you there
Very exciting that you've been hitting the streets with this and traveling around and talking to different groups
Um, we'll give give some give us some more details about that like where is that where are you going?
I mean are you rolling into town and uh,
You know what what groups are you even tapping into when you when you're rolling to these different places?
So I was at chris, uh, chris martinson if you're familiar with him peak prosperity
I was actually at his
His event that he had 300 people at he actually gave me it was the only person to have two
Block so I had two and a half hours to speak to his audience of his audience
These are diehard people that are already
Looking for alternative currencies already looking at buying farmland. I mean this is actually
A great demographic of people but they trend older
And so like I so the weirdest experience that I had
Was trying to onboard somebody that was probably in their late 60s early 70s
That did have a de-googled phone
Which was interesting but struggled with just the basic setup of a wallet
And going through and understanding what seed praises are and and even how to like
paste an address into a
Web form to receive, you know
Zato or mineral kind of on an automatic basis like that was that that was a little bit of a
A loop for me and so
but that actual
Event went well and in fact i'm going to do an extended online course
For all of the thousands of people that are part of the peak
prosperity community so this so
We're going to be expanding from
That workshop so i'm excited about this because this is going to give us the ability to reach
Thousands of people with longer form content and to go through all of the explanations
You know the the Connecticut the Connecticut event was a was a brownstone event the dc event
Which I think you shared my speech there was no workshop there. That was just me basically
Telling people to ditch that you know it was an anti-war
Rage against the war machine event and my whole pitch was
You know don't don't tell me you're against war and then use the dollar on a daily basis
And so my whole pitch was ditch the dollar and I promoted
Zeno and minero as being the solution to that and then last week weekend
I was in New Jersey
And this was one of my workshops so I so sometimes I do a workshop within a larger event
And then other times we actually put together the event ourselves and so we have
20 volunteers all around the country that are helping us find local groups
So like when we're in New Jersey, we had probably a dozen groups
Sponsoring that so we had health freedom groups libertarian groups
And other kind of related groups gun groups
Uh, it's like we had a uh gold and silver
Uh merchants we had just sponsoring and basically all of their members did a discounted coupon to the event
So that's how we're aggregating people
for my events
and uh, and you know, it went
It went incredibly well
I mean some of the feedback that I got was you know, even there was a libertarian guy who's a boomer who who actually
Went to the libertarian party national meeting on sunday and said they should stop focusing on getting candidates elected and start focusing on
pushing people to
do these workshops
Across the country and adopting private sound money. So
And and I think it was the fact that the workshops demystify crypto
And on board people using cake wallet, which actually is something that's easy
For everybody to understand. So that's that's basically how this is going and we're scheduling
I'm only going to do about one of these a month
Just because there's a lot of my own events and so I'm actually going to wait until probably the beginning of the year
To pick back up and start doing these
Uh, because I want to have you know, some of the integrations that I know that are happening with cake wall
I want to be able to basically
Not only sign up individuals to begin using crypto
But also be able to onboard merchants in another breakout session
To be able to receive crypto and my goal would be at the end of the workshop to have people that have been newly
Onboarded to crypto
Buying things from merchants who have been newly onboarded to crypto is a way to really accelerate this because we want to get to
Direct peer-to-peer transactions and the biggest bottleneck right now
Is point-of-sale system hand out hands down
So, uh, yeah, I love I love that that did the um the hackathon at monarotopia
will be
Uh focused on that
Trying to improve basically a point of sales
um
Particularly looking or specifically looking at btc pay server and trying to improve its in a mineral implementation
um
But yeah, I think you're you're dead on man. You get you got a you got a good, uh
I don't know you got a a good eye for these things a good
Understanding of what's going on and your your boots on the ground. I think uh, you're an impressive individual man
um
What what it's like some of the the feedback I mean you kind of said in one way or the other but
What is some of the feedback you're getting like what are people's concerns about when you tell them about manero and zado
These people that are a little bit older
Obviously, you're seeing they kind of fumble around and not really being able to use the tech too well
But what are there? What are the concerns that they're voicing?
Or that has it well, I mean
Well, so part of the issue is that I mean there's a four hour workshop the full one that I do and I tell people
Why I'm doing this and how I got here and you know, I tell people I have friends that are in prison
Uh for doing this and a lot of people's you know responses won't see that's that's scary
Do I want to get involved in this and you know to which my answer is you know, I lead in with what cbdc's are
by the way, we already have a cbdc and I'm trying to
reframe
How we even look at and define cbdc's I mean the dollar today
The government issues in iou to the federal reserve the federal reserve it creates money in an oracle database
And that is a central bank digital currency. Yes, we also have commercial banks
That have their own microsoft and oracle databases
But at the end of the day
We have a central bank digital currency and it's now just a measure of
The level of tyranny and so the way that I frame privacy coins is this and by the way, we already have programmable money
We already have surveillable money. There are i've identified 13 different ways
In the united states that our money is being surveilled and I'll just give you three quickly
One is nsa bulk data collection
Another is irs
collection of information working directly with banks using ai
And the third is this concept of a national security letter where they can go in
Seize your bank account and you can't talk to anybody about it including a lawyer
So this is this is the state of the world
Today with our digital money
It can get worse. We have this project hamilton thing that was
a development between mit and
um
The federal reserve bank of york with some bitcoin core developers involved and and it does get worse
From there and so I've put together this little tyranny index
And part of as you escalate on the tyranny index
The ultimate end goal of this is a global digital currency single global digital currency backed by energy credits
where cash is banned and crypto is banned and
I explained to people in the context of this just as there's a tyranny index
There's a freedom index while we would love to get to
everybody using peer-to-peer privacy coins
Directly without any third party intermediaries. We're not going to get there directly even me
I mean, you know, I live on crypto, but if I'm in new hampshire
Oftentimes I can buy things directly from merchants using crypto, but a lot of times I have to use gift cards or I have to use
Demet cards, which is not a true peer-to-peer solution. It's kind of a continuum
So we're kind of working up on the freedom continuum trying to get the peer-to-peer
And they're working on this tyranny index
Trying to get to the single thing tied to social credit scores and this complete dystopian kind of loss of free will
and so framed in that way
they understand why
privacy is important
and also why governments are
uh, tackling and I do address very head-on because it frustrates me
On this like because I think this whole election
There are a lot of people like oh, yeah trump said a lot of great things on crypto
There's nothing good about the legislation
That has been drafted by the republicans in the house from the perspectives of privacy
Or self-custody all of the bills, especially these loomis bills
They do things like bad algorithmic stable coins. They basically put in criteria
That will make it so that tether and usdc kind of
Go away hand stable coins to the largest banks. It gives more custody and control to banks. It adds more
Reporting and democrats and republicans alike are both
cheerleading on this whole money laundering
and drug trafficking
Angle so lucia lumis the republican from wyoming has stated flat out. She doesn't like privacy coins
She only likes transparent ledgers. So there is no
Solution in front of us whatsoever regardless of who wins
That promotes privacy coins or that promotes any alternatives to cvdc
And republicans and democrats have different ways of going about doing it. The democrats want to give more control
To the central bank, but you still have commercial banks
Whereas the republicans want to get the banks
more control over stable coins, but in the end
and you know
JP Morgan issuing a programmable stable coin is the same as the cvdc from all practical
Intent given
What it means for the user in terms of freedom? So
So I lay all that out in the workshops and so that kind of gives them an understanding now that word becomes challenging
Is we get to the practical
Aspect of this which is I sent people up with these wallets and then the next question is well, where do I buy more?
How do I get more and that's that so there's I actually spend a lot of time
Walking people through it. I don't want to dominate all this, but I'll say there's another part to this which is
Part of why I'm so interested in in zato in addition to manero, which is you have you know
So cvdcs are basically tokenized money
But they are working to tokenize all non-monetary assets
As well. So the same people that are pushing this
centralization agenda want to
tokenize stocks bonds
real estate and everything else
And put it on a common ledger tied to cvdcs and interestingly enough that the guy who's the head of the platform
Development so that is my perg
bitcoin court of early bitcoin core
Developer, but they basically want to be able to have complete centralized control
over all
global assets and so
So zeno allows you to tokenize
assets non-monetary assets
In addition to having
A privacy currency that is a a solution to the great reset of a great taking or whatever it is
Then you want to call it so I frame all of this in these workshops and and
I see this because they're particularly with older people going back to this issue of so boomers have all the money
But they don't have the technical prowess the younger people have
the technical experience but not the understanding or the interest in privacy
but if you understand that
Through this concept called the great taking
They the financial giants have basically changed all the contractual relationships
So that we don't really own our stocks or our bonds or our 401ks
So in the event of a large financial collapse and there's a bankruptcy
We won't actually own those shares. They will go to the secured creditors, which are essentially the four largest banks
in the us and so
Once you explain that there are a lot of people that are like, okay
They're I feel especially if they're over 59 and a half
They want to sell some of their 401k and maybe buy some privacy
Is it breaking up for for other people or is that just me right now?
It's just you I hear i'm okay
Okay, so
So anyway, they say they initiate the process
They want to sell some of their 401k and buy privacy coins and so in essence here's essentially the obstacles and what's going on
You sell part of your 401k. It takes three weeks to get a check from fidelity or black rock or vanguard
whoever it is then you have to deposit that check then you have to
Send that to a you have to set it out with an exchange you go through all of that set up move those funds
So it takes a month from the time somebody says
Yes, I want to sell some of my 401k and get into privacy coins
For that transaction to actually be able to take place and it involves at least three probably four steps
And so and none of that is going easier from perspective
So i'm just i'm saying this just in the sense of there are actually now a lot of people
looking at privacy coins as kind of a
A store of value to start
But with the understanding it's something that you know eventually they'll need to use
As as cash
All right, I actually had a switch to the minaretopia account. I don't know for some reason I hear you start cutting out
Uh, but yeah, you cover kind kind of stuff there all all amazing thing
Um, let me try to get some other people up here. I see tatiana
Uh, hey guys tatiana. What's going on? I'm good. Thanks. How are you good topics in here?
I feel like everybody's uh a little bit more in the weeds than I am
I'm just here to sing a siren song and lure people into privacy
Well, that's that's important too. Um, I guess I guess while we have the upper first question are
Are you attending minaretopia? Is it is it happening? Are we gonna have you down there?
I'm not just attending. I'm gonna rock for you guys. I already found a guitar
I didn't want to travel with a guitar because I've got to come in from Buenos Aires
And um, when you do like a bunch of flights, they charge you each time for the guitar
So I found one locally
Uh from a dear friend of mine. And so yeah, I'm gonna be performing and hopefully learning some stuff
Um excited to see vlad. I haven't seen him since prog I think and and some of the other folks
Um, Aaron, I just saw a couple weeks ago. But um, there's a lot of cool people coming for sure
I'm a big fan of emir toky. I always have been especially since I saw him
You know when I when I saw the opening of the film deep web
And he's like the darkness. It's like the best spookiest opening speech thing in the world. So
Um, always good to hear him speak and um, yeah, I don't know
Like this is a super important thing that we're going to be facing in the future
I love bitcoin, but obviously there's a lot of challenges around that right now in terms of privacy
Um, I didn't know about some of those concerns regarding
Um, uh senator lumens
um
I mean do you guys ever have like a
Kind of an outreach to those?
Uh government kind of like for example, um digital chamber parianse organization, right? They're going and lobbying
Um, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of going to government and asking for permission
but
If they're making rules, I do like to have people from our industry
Representing um the community's perspective. Do you feel like there's been an effort to
Explain the value of privacy to government people?
I mean like it's sort of silly because no, they don't want that's like asking you like
Oh, have you told the slave master that slavery sucks? You know, um, but like how's that been a thing?
Well, as it has a coin center has done some good work in that area
um
You know often when they do it though, they avoid using the m word manero. I don't I don't know why
Um, but point center has done some great work. They put out a great paper
essentially as to why digital cash matters
You know why why people should have the
To essentially transact privately here to peer
So they they have done some good work in that area, but I would say like manero as a community
Uh, isn't made really doing the best job and maybe because I think uh, a lot of
You know a lot of people a lot of people are so cypherpunk or crypto Atticus and point where they don't really see a
You know a point in trying to deal with the powers that be through
The you know established system, but rather all goal being build something that's unstoppable. So I think
That aspect of the manero culture has kind of kept people, you know
prevented or kept people away from
Uh, trying to trying to lobby
I mean, I hear that I don't want to beg for permission either. So I'm not faulting that I was more curious
There's there's value there in that approach. I mean, I read I had mentioned to you that I read for congress here in New York in 2020
So I'm not completely opposed to trying to go down those roads
Although I learned a lot doing it that you know, saw how the sausage got made so to speak again, probably
Uh less enthusiastic about that approach. That's when I first attempted to run
Uh, I think I think it's you know, we could get we could get so much out of just simply
Simply just ignore completely ignoring them
Uh and building out our own economy, right? We have all the tools
We have the ability to come together digitally through all these different platforms
And then we have manero, which works beautifully as untraceable digital cash like all everything is there
we just need to
Ignore the powers that be not comply
And just build out our own economy and start using it among each other obviously
But I do totally agree with you that out, you know, trying to lobby would be nice
Uh before all the reasons uh Aaron is saying it's like what are you even lobbying to right? Yeah, it's coke and Pepsi
um
You know, whether whether we get trump or we get kamala or it's this senator or that congressman or a few outliers
There's like a few super principled people in congress
Uh, that would that would probably be you know, I'll very much align with what we're doing
Yeah, they skip the diddy parties those people
Meaning I'm I'm in I'm saying that they probably have like blackmail on the others
Yeah, yeah, so you know what I'm saying. I mean, it's just like is it even worth attempting to
You know to lobby to these people and get them to I mean
I guess in some ways the best way to do it is to do it in a way where they feel like they're they're gaining some
advantage by dealing with us and kind of using them
Rather than allowing them to use us
Maybe there's some things that can be done in that respect. I mean, that's not my approach
I just think that somebody else doing him is not necessarily a bad thing when I found very off putting this year
Was seeing how many people are so interested in the political process like
Look, although for trump, whatever. I don't believe voting's real. I think it's all a joke. Um,
And you know, I mean it's like a joke to me completely
However, I'll pull my little lever to get ross. I'll brick free and I know it's all bs
But you know, I was at um an anti-war rally. I think it was last weekend or the weekend before and we were in dc
and
It was jordan peterson rustle bran rfk tulsi gabard
Jimmy door all the rock stars of
You know alternative media. I mean they're they're all statists, right? But at the end of the day
They were expecting a hundred thousand people and they had maybe two thousand
On the other hand when you see people and the anti-war rally, I mean
I was very proud to be a part of that. I admire the people who put it together
But in terms of the audience, I mean it was like a hundred people there
I think that people are still totally drinking the kool-aid
And it's very annoying because we have to kind of live in a world with people who are still begging for masters
And I think that that's really kind of you know part of the challenge probably the biggest part of the challenge
Building these other ecosystems while everybody is you know
Up kamala and trumps took us like okay. Well, that's that's you know, we have to do in the meantime
And I think that we are
I don't know. I feel like we're heading for something really kind of disastrous. So I'm all about
setting these kinds of
Kind of communities up in advance
Um, I saw a headline and I didn't get a chance to follow it and maybe somebody here can tell me
I saw that chain analysis has broken the Monero privacy. Is that true or did anybody hear that?
Well, I did I read that so you definitely heard that
Um, we did we did a whole show
What's the TLDR the the TLDR is that Monero has always had
Um, you know attack vectors, right? So Monero prevents mass surveillance
Uh, it's it's no no no, there's no there's no easy way to mass mass surveil Monero transactions
And it does that very effectively
Uh, there are ways to pinpoint attack individuals and if you have enough resources
You could take advantages of some of the weaknesses of Monero
And really use data outside of Monero to try to figure out who's sending what to whom similar to like what you can do with
Cash, right?
Um, there's things you could do on the outside
Uh, so yeah TLDR is chain analysis has
uh taken advantage of
Moneros the weaknesses in Monero's ring signatures, which have always been well known
It's openly spoke about in the Monero community
Which is why Monero actually is upgrading to full chain membership proofs
That'll be a big topic of the Monero conference. We have Luke Parker
Who is the genius developer behind that we'll be
Presenting a Monero topi on that
But yeah ring signatures, which is only once which is one small aspect of Monero
does have you know, there there is a way to
Probabilistically using data outside of Monero to kind of make guesses as to who out the true sender
of Monero may be
And chain analysis was is attempting to use those flaws to its advantage
But ultimately there really is not much of anything they can do and the the weaknesses that they claim to be using are very much
Known in the Monero community have been known
And uh, we'll actually completely disappear soon. And I don't know how those guys sleep at night
I really don't have anistic way to trace Monero
Well, that's a that's a good education for me too because I was I saw that and I was like, I don't look at this because that didn't sound right
Yeah, a lot a lot of fun a lot of fun. And uh, you know chain analysis company is trying to make money selling selling their selling their tools
Um, but actually if you listen to the presentation that that leaked
It's a major endorsement from Monero actually given by the person who's giving the presentation from chain analysis
And he's just talking about how amazing Monero functions as a technology paired to bitcoin in terms of its untraceability
Um, and it's you know, it is the best known tool for digital cash purposes
Yet here are some things we may be able to do given enough resources
If we want to do a pinpoint attack on trying to uh, trace people's transactions
That's that's the the long and short of it
Um, I do want to say uh, you know Tatiana, I'm very excited that you'll be coming down to Monero topi
I think it's like a a strong indication that we you know
The Monero conference itself is is doing something right and that the Monero project itself is doing something right because it's attracting
Uh principal people libertarians like yourself that have been in this game a very long time for all the right reasons
I say that because I
You know followed you throughout the years. I know you're not just some slide by the night
You know, I don't know basically basically basically some scammer, right? There's a there's a lot of
Well, I do have a shit coin according to some people
So I could be an original shit coin or with Tatiana coin, but I don't think of it that way
I'm just joking. I think that was the og meme coin honestly. Yeah. Yeah the first art is coin
So that was built on counterparty. So it's kind of uh, interesting to see all the people meaning now and stuff like that, but
Either way or two like that the the liberty grifters, right? There's a lot of liberty grifters out there these days people that
Take an advantage of the fact that there is kind of this mass awakening
And they're they're all of a sudden
People out there that are acting like they're they're all pro liberty this that I think you you name some of the names
that were speakers at the event that you're at
And you are definitely not one of them. So it's super excited
I think it's it's great signal to see that you're interested in manero and the manero topea powers
Well, I I found manero for a while not like a lot
But in general that was one of the coins that I have always respected and I remember
I don't even remember who it was that I met from the team
But when I was in dc
I think for the libertarian national convention
There was somebody from manero there and I was like, oh, I gotta hang out with those guys
And uh, you know, it's super important. I mean, I'm getting ready for the apocalypse. So
You know, I need as many alternative currencies as possible and I haven't read the roger veer book
I don't have an opinion on bitcoin cash particularly
But you know, I I do want like I didn't get into bitcoin so I could be tracked and give my money to the government
That's for sure and that was kind of what was promised. So
A lot of people in general like to rag on projects other than bitcoin
I think that's pretty pointless like why, you know, we need experimentation and sometimes people make mistakes
So people have to learn some personal responsibility when they're making their investments
But they don't want to this is why everybody likes meme coins because they just want to ape in and be wild and just gamble like crazy people
So that's that's human nature. So between that and then all the trumpies and the kamala mama
Mama lovers, I mean, I don't know we've got a long way to go
But I do think that there's a change and I think that, you know, even a platform like x
Is pretty censored. I don't know if you guys feel similarly, but like I'm not really buying this whole
elan is the grand lord of
of
you know
No censorship. I I just hear lots of people still being censored. So, you know, we need we need new options for sure
And um, especially on the money side. So I'm really happy to be there and um, I'll be playing some songs for you guys
Uh from my albums and yeah, I've got a lot of different like freedom stuff
So I know that the manero people like freedom and that's that's where the real crossover is
I'm not as strong on my privacy game, but you know, I could learn and that's where I'm going to be doing
Fantastic fantastic
Well, why is it? Why do you think, uh, you know, some of these quote-unquote freedom fighters
are
You know avoiding things like manero talking about manero. I mean it's for obvious reasons that they
Dude, everybody is like a baby. They all want likes. That's all they care about
It's like kind of sad to me and I I have a theory about this
I think it's because we have so many people from divorced and unstable homes
And so they need to validate themselves by like likes on twitter or on facebook or whatever stupid thing it is
So they just go where it's popular and it's sickening. It's it's actually very hard
Like I've been in you know, I was doing a tour with ron paul like in 2012
So I've seen a lot of different things change
and
It's very frustrating seeing
Kind of attention-seeking behavior get a reward
And then also what I noticed was um right after ron paul lost
All of the famous podcasters became replaced by these kind of republican-y kind of podcasters
And I don't know where they all came from but they all had a ton of views
So I feel like our even our mainstream like there's like an expression. I think david eyck uses it
mainstream alternative media
I think that it's um, it's pretty contrived. I mean, I really like tucker carlson
I really like his his stuff, but I do feel like it's a bit of a controlled hangout
And we are dealing with extraordinarily evil forces. So what do I know?
Right? Maybe they know something that I don't know and that's making them a little bit more obedient
Um, but you know at the end of the day people want their likes
They want their $22 for a week of like shitposting and you know, that's literally all people care about
And you know, it's it's an unfortunate kind of thing because it's very discouraging
Um, when I first joined uh, the liberty movement
I had some really good friends just walk away and I couldn't understand then
Why they would do that and it's the egos and the attention-seeking nonsense and also
The inability for people to adhere to their principles that I think is a really big turnoff
You know, I mean, how much time can you put into activism if some of the people
Don't even live up to the principles that they espouse, right? So
You know, it's easy to get a little bit burnt out
and
That's another reason why I was like, oh, I well manero people
First of all, like I said, I am a narrow right and I like privacy
But you know, they're thinking about the right things whereas they think the bitcoin audience has become
Very keen on acceptance. You know, everybody was so happy to give Trump a cassatious coin. Like why?
Why does he need a cassatious coin?
Like the dude's got a ton of money give that to somebody who actually needs it like I'm
And they're like, oh my god, he bought a burger. Like who cares?
I don't care and apparently 45 minutes for the transaction to settle
So like
I'm not that impressed
custodial lightning
Yeah, and look, I mean, I think that there's some things to admire about trump that fight fight fight thing
I mean, that was super rock star level stuff
But at the end of the day, these people are all controlled as far as I can tell in some way or another
And he had a lot of opportunities to let out
Um
Snowden or to pardon snowden to pardon assange
And instead as assange had to just sit there and miss the first few years of his children's lives
And trump, you know, did the whole pro-vax nonsense
Um, and I just don't see that much contrition
And I think that, you know, whatever the I'm just not that impressed with the whole political process. Sure
I'm voting for trump. He's better than the other guy
But I don't even think voting is really a thing like
People shouldn't be voting who's going to be the master of their neighbor in the first place
I mean, I have to live in reality and uh, an arca, you know, an archetypa is not here yet. Um,
So, you know and also incidentally like even even in those groups like I was involved in
um, a project called gold sculpt in
2014, uh, which was jeff brooks project
And there was another guy ken johnson and what I saw there was
A bunch of scammers. I tried to like raise the alarm everybody was like, oh, you're being a bitch
Excuse my language, but like that's what they thought they thought I was just being annoying
And they just wanted to help him and it's just human nature
People like have to get smacked in the face in order to wake up and even then I don't think it really has any kind of effect
So, you know, we just have to focus on finding the people that are
In alignment with our values and truly are right and not just kind of like making money and grifting because you know
There are those people that are just grifting and uh,
And yeah, I mean that's that's just very challenging and um, and it's human nature
And so that's I like I I actually canceled my event next week
I was doing an event called the counterparty here in Miami, but obviously we're getting blown up with a stupid storm
Oh, yeah
Yeah, so we moved into january 25th and 26, but one of the yeah, so now
Yeah, exactly that was my thought but you know the point is is that
Like part of our programming that we wanted to do was add in a spiritual element because I think that you know
If we're only thinking about the fight gotta fight fight fight like that's not healthy
It's not good for us and we're not going to be good husbands and wives and parents and all the other roles that we have
Like our role is not only to fight the state 24 7
I mean, maybe that's okay for some people, but I don't think that that's a really sustainable model
so like things like homeschooling and um, you know permaculture
And nutrition and wellness like I think that those are all components of freedom that
People should give a little bit of balanced attention to because it's just not sustainable the way that it is right now
Um, and I think that some people learn that lesson, you know, and and there's an awakening on that front
but I do think it's important for people to kind of like
You know get right with god or whatever they think is the the higher power and make sure that they're in alignment because I think that
you know, there's a lot of disappointment in trying to fight the man
And uh, sometimes it's just like new new boss same as the old boss
I do think that we're at a turning point in history where things could go, you know
Age of Aquarius style and that could be really awesome
But I'm just waiting
To see what happens and I'm trying to do my best to build up community around me and
And help others kind of wake up as best I can but you know, people want to keep hitting snooze
That's on them. I mean look all these people they didn't go to the anti-war rally
Well, guess what losers you're all going to get drafted. So let me know how that goes for you
You know what I mean? Like uh, you guys don't want to show up. That's fine
I'm just gonna like, you know get prepared for things going south. Hopefully they don't but I mean, I don't see how they could
Turn out any other way considering how far down we've gone. Um, these dangerous paths that we're on, right?
So everybody's got to kind of be responsible for themselves and and hopefully
You know think a little bit ahead instead of just I mean look, it's exciting
It's great to doom scroll and find out about all the bad things that are going to happen
But is that really healthy? I don't know. I don't think it is personally
I love it
Where do you uh, where do you get this this this drive from and you have you have you always been like this? I know
Yeah, I'm animal style. My mom is from Poland
No, my mom is from Poland. So I grew up learning that communism sucks
You know, I learned that real quick and I knew because when I would go to Poland
There was the remnants of communism and I couldn't get a freaking toy. They didn't have any Barbies
They didn't have anything you had to go on like a like a line and hold a little ticket
And then they would give you like a imitation Barbie and you know, even as a kid
I was like, all right. Well the land and the people are nice, but you know, it wasn't like America where you've had everything
So
Interestingly enough now Poland has a really booming economy and we're in the toilet
Um, I have a friend who's like Poland is now the place to be my my daughter comes there every summer
Oh, really?
Try to make her bring her down to the conference. I think you guys would hit it off. She's only 10 years old
That's awesome. Well, you got to start them young and like, you know
My mom she would play for me a lot of the 60s and 70s singer-songwriters growing up
And you know, like cat Stevens doing peace train had a huge impact on me
You know, like I saw that music could be used to convey an idea
And reading dystopian novels woke me up to all the different things that could go wrong
And so this is like why I made tatiana coin. It was because
I know how important those voices are and how they can like if I didn't hear a peace train
I might be a totally different person right now just run one single song
And then, you know, all these other books that woke all these other people up
I mean the arts are a great way to get a message across
The first song that I made about bitcoin was not a song. It was a jingle because I said, okay
We got to sell this thing, right? So
I think that the arts are a great way to wake people up that maybe are not necessarily technically inclined or
politically inclined
Um people around the world are definitely waking up generally to this stuff, right?
But it's a it's a little bit of a slow slog. So, you know having artists be able to express themselves
Um is really important to make sure that we can uh
I don't know like we just we just need different ways to wake people up and meet them where they're at
And I'll be really happy when these elections are over
Because then maybe we could actually talk about some real stuff because every year all the most important
election
I mean, I'll give it that like I think it is that this time sure
But like at the end of the day, are we gonna stop the war in uh, like the middle east? I don't think so
We're just gonna amp that up. I don't see that going down
I really hope that they end the one at least in russia and in ukraine, but I don't see that happening
I mean look these guys are all getting paid off
So anybody with the illusion that trump is their daddy is like retarded. Excuse my language
But like that's basically the deal right like come on
You know, he's better than than kamala and maybe there'll be some hope there
I don't mean to be like miss blackpill
But I mean, I've been doing this for a long time. Like ara was saying, uh, they seem to be
Are pristine pristine for the head with the totalitarian, you know technocratic totalitarian
You know progress whether it's a kamala win or trump when we're gonna get it one way or the other
Yeah, and the problem with trump is that everybody's gonna go back to sleep. They're gonna say oh
Trumps and fire usher in these things, right? Absolutely
And so it happens what it happens when you have the the the groups that should be most opposed to these ideas
Is what when they usher in these ideas and get them passed
Right before everybody's eyes
That's what I'm seeing is a concern because
Well, the the thing is exactly actually it's a very good example
But I think that that's just one of the many examples that we're gonna see coming up
And that's what I think is frightening because people will say oh, it's okay
If you know, we're we're taking away this freedom because daddy trump said it's okay
And it's like no guys. It's not okay. Get where your principal's at
So that's again
This goes back to like how you're gonna win when if you're ain't right within sorry to butcher the lauren hill
Cool, but I mean that's pretty much it right people are
You know all over the place and uh, each person's got to find their personal journey to like a purpose and to
Really tell if what they're doing has some kind of effect or if they're actually
You know the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
And that that is a that is a factor that people need to consider when they think that they're doing the right thing
Do you love coffee and minera as much as we do
Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup pay with minera for premium fresh beans
And if you like what you taste send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible
Proceeds help us grow this channel gratuitous and minero
All right, dropping dropping a lot of based points of views there
Thanks, there's there's more where that came from
Listen to my songs like go to tatiana morose or like who is this wild woman?
They could find out they could go to Spotify. I'll get I'll get one tenth of a penny each time they play my song
So i'm gonna retire on that
Um, you gotta you gotta sell your your music on xmr bizarre.com
I think that that's true. Maybe I'll I think somebody there can teach me how to do that, right?
Yeah, oh, yeah, super easy. Yeah, very easy
Perfect. Very easy to do very easy to do. Actually, I do want to uh, Aaron
Let let let let's jump back to the topic really quickly though with the you know
Kamala versus trump you were making some good points there and tatiana was kind of bringing them up again from her from her perspective
What do you practically see as the outcome of a trump win versus a kamala win in terms of how
Things may look differently from the minero perspective
So so this is an app before that I want to add that, you know, I wasted 15 years on this
political thing and and actually I ran for president
As a republican this time just to raise the cbdc issue. I wasn't trying to win or have any expectations
So I talked to Cynthia Lewis. I talked to the vac. I gave him my book. He actually read it
I've talked to him about it several times. I gave it to Ted Cruz all of this
There's no hope politically zero. There is no lobbying
That is going to work and I'll put it as simply as possible
The power of congress is the power of the purse. They have no interest
whatsoever in competition
So it's antithetical and it's illogical to think that we can work with exam in any kind of constructive way
to
coexist alongside it and I'll just say
Every fiat currency in human history has failed and the state even screws up
Met precious metals by debasing them
so
You know, I I won't go on but if my stepmother was involved in politics
She was the co-chair of the rnc. She was trumps ambassador to Costa Rica. I've seen politics
Up close at the highest level abandon all hope you who enter politics now as it relates to minero
again
Look at the language of the lumus
Gillibrand bill and I'm convinced that if you put the blockchain
Usa patriot freedom act and the bill text said
We're going to round up everybody who has self-custody crypto and shoot them in from a firing squad
74 percent of the people would probably cheer because they wouldn't read the bill
No one's read this lumus. Gillibrand bill
And if you look at the bill itself again
It adds algorithmic stable coins. It gives more control to the banks
He has multiple quotes that I've shared
As means she is completely anti privacy coins
So trump says to in the first 100 days and this is the big anytime somebody says common-sense rules of the road
Run
So trump has said in his first hundred days. He's going to lay out a regulatory framework
Well, I mean the basis of it is going to be lumus because she's the farthest along furthermore
The democrats once harris decided to get in and realize she might need
Some of these bit coiner votes and now all of a sudden mark cuban is involved in everything else and even chuck schumer came in
And said well, we might pass something before the election, which by the way
We should all be worried about whatever that is and we need to understand
That the starting point is jillibrand lumus and it only gets worse from there
So, um, there's nothing that's being proposed that
Is pro-privacy in any circumstance and there is language in the lumus jillibrand bill
I believe
Or for and some of the other bills that it's about
KYC AML and money laundering and terrorism and this is just the catch-all that they always throw in
And and it always works. I mean, unfortunately the thing that worries me the most about all of this is
You know, I mean at any point in time and we've had
The social security database go down
I mean, there are there's literally trillions of dollars of lost
uh economic
activity every year because centralized databases are hacked and basically every
Every market of the economy runs on centralized data means so
Uh, so it's and we just saw the water supply was hacked yesterday
Covering, I believe 14 million people
So that's an easy pretext to
Try to clamp down on this stuff to try to implement a centralized tokenized system for all assets
And to remove, you know privacy coins. So the answer to this is
We have to move as quickly as possible to get easy to use tools as possible and get people using them
And but I want to stress this because my background is in serial entrepreneur, but even
In looking at whether it's tech companies or even ideas
Um, I was at G. Edward Griffin's red pill expo and chatted with him a bit
Even the united states itself it wasn't you know, we didn't defeat the british with 50 plus one at the ballot box
It was half of a percent
It then influenced one percent that influenced three percent and it was really only 15 percent total that won the american revolution
So we don't need to focus on mainstream yet. We just need to cobble together
All of the people in these disparate categories from health freedom to food freedom
To permaculture to all of these different areas and build easy to use
Point of sale systems and wallets and if it becomes easy enough to use
Others will adopt it because it is a superior alternative
To what they're putting out with cbdcs, but right now unfortunately when I first used bitcoin in 2012
It was better faster cheaper money, but since then
zell venmo
apple pay google pay
And all of the others have actually leapfrogged and it's a better easier to use experience. We have to focus on making
privacy coins
Simple for merchants and simple for the end user and if we do that well enough then when that emergency hits
And you know using the typical problem reaction solution that when people are in this fearful state
We can offer them something better
Instead of them having to take the
charity approach by default
I love that man all great points and I you keep stressing the fact that
We got to bridge these communities
There's already there are already people that are very much aligned with using digital cash and minaret
They just don't really know it yet these you know these communities that already exist out there that are freedom
communities that are perhaps into
Other specific topics, but not realizing that they they would they would like to utilize a tool like minaret
And that perhaps enough people already exist out there for us to kind of opt out
I have a question for erin. Oh go ahead. Sorry go ahead
Well, I was just going to say one quick thing
I see I see rafael. I'm here as well and I actually just did an AMA with syro today
I also think that there's some value in well, look let's look at it like this
The cbdc's and they've developed can do 1.8 million transactions per second
If we need to onboard a bunch of people minaret alone is not going to be enough
We need multiple we're going to need multiple cryptocurrencies. I think it would be great to see if we could
break through some of the
You know the dynamics between crypto privacy crypto projects
And you know and get minaret and zeno and fire and pirate chain and zcash and everybody to kind of
You know be willing to kind of play play well together understanding that we're facing an existential threat
Well, they'll all they'll all be in minaretopia
Although zcash won't be there if you get zcash involved by all means they're more than welcome
I don't know. Vlad if you if you have a way of getting zcash involved
Please do
We had somebody from zcash who wasn't really directly part of
The the project give a presentation last year
He was a part of the project but not when he gave his presentation and it was it was good
It was good, but it would be nice to have some of the
Uh, you know zcash team
common present
Um, I had a question as a follow-up to erin if that's all right. Um, erin you mentioned that
Vivek read your book. That's kind of cool. Uh, well very cool. Actually
He does seem like one of the less annoying ones
Why do you maintain that it is just a total loss trying to pursue it from the government?
Was he just like sorry, but I just love
Spying on people like what was the outcome not necessarily violate his confidence or
In what he told you but i'm just curious like why you were why you jumped from the point that oh, you read it
And now you're just like no way. Jose. Nothing's gonna happen
Is it that he just wants attention or what is it that makes you say like well this is a this is a deal breaker
All right, so here's a little bit of the background of this so
So I was running for president. This was the context and I'd run for office in new hampshire and gotten 17 000 votes in the statewide
race and so
I could have been somewhat annoying in in new hampshire
And when vivek exited the iowa caucas
Trump was actually facing a contested primer. So haley was still
In it. So vivek told trump to go come out against cvc's and when you watch that
Press conference. It's very clear. Trump doesn't know even to this day what cvc's are however the
Vivek did read my book and I know this because we talked about some of the specifics of it
He liked the first half of my book where I lay out the threat of cvc's
He didn't like the last half of my book which was
Basically i'm promoting ditching the dollar and moving into
Alternative assets like he believes that which by the way it is completely ridiculous
Like there's no way for us to go back on the gold standard
There is no I've analyzed his policies
And I mean it's kind of like that scene from goodwill hunting when
When matt daemon's character is talking to that guy at the bar. He basically says well, yeah
First you read this book then you read this book. There's no way that even technically we don't have a form of government
Where you can go in and do what vivek is talking about
I I think it's basically setting everybody up for a massive disappointment eon is not going to go in and cut the budget by 80%
It's not even actually possible
But to be clear
Vivek believes in state-based modern and he believes
in uh, that somehow we can
Move to a gold standard and
um
So so there's that aspect of it and then you can actually look at what trump has proposed first of all
Let's just say this idea of using a strategic
Bitcoin reserve
Based on civil asset forfeiture
That's a bit of a problem
Right to our friends people like ross people like eon freeman and some of these other things
So now every time you get pulled over in a traffic light make sure the cop doesn't take your wallet
And confiscate all of your crypto to put it in the strategic reserve
If you look at what's being proposed what trump has said
What linus has said there's nothing
That indicates any movement towards anything other that has more reporting requirements and is anti privacy
So read all of the bills
And read the words that that that trump has said so
And I know vivek is not
Vivek does not believe in
the idea of crypto as being
A currency
That can be used as an alternative
So he's been co-opted as has trump by this
digital gold narrative
Right, so okay, and what is lumas proposed and by the way, I want to say this
Yeah, good if anti policy came in and said
They had a press conference that said hey everybody
We're going to use taxpayer dollars to buy a trillion dollars worth of my portfolio and hold it for 20 years
While she holds 500 000 dollars of that portfolio. That's exactly what lumas did with bitcoin
So I I would argue that this strategic reserve is kind of a peak
iron rand zillion
plot at this point
So that's that's why I say that
um
Yeah, I'm just see everybody cheering for it because yeah, I was I was adding that up too
I'm like so you're just gonna keep all the money that you see is from everybody and that's your like I can't even understand why
All these bitcoiners are so excited about that
That's why it makes me kind of sick to be around them in a lot of ways because it's like
They care about is the fiat number go up, baby. Yeah, and it's it's really sad
I mean they've been co-opted to the point where yeah like like aron is basically explaining that big bitcoin is the thing
That is even co-opting
These quote-unquote freedom fighters and the politicians that should be aligned with digital cash and the idea
Transacting people transacting freely
Even people like rfk jr. I mean I remember being very excited hearing him kind of talk about
the importance of cash as a tool for people to be able to
Uh, you know communicate value peter peer without censorship
And then I see that he's kind of I don't know drinking the bitcoin kool-aid when he gave that speech
He kind of sounded quite religious and I'm just wondering
Did we lose rfk jr. Two or does he still believe I'll give you a break with that guy
He likes his he's a gun grabber fm. Sorry not interested
Ignoring that though. I mean I've heard him make some you know inspiring points about the poor everybody
That's inspiring points when they're running
I can make lots of inspiring points and then when it comes down to it like who actually keeps their word once they get in there
Nobody it's a bunch of players
You know a believer in cash for the principles of you know why why we all think it would make sense
I'm just yeah, so I I know tatiata
Sorry i'm a hater
No, I think you you you sniffed him out from from the get go
But uh, aren't I mean what what do you think man? Do you think?
rfk jr. Is is just like the rest of them or could he potentially believe in using these things as actual an actual tool for
Transacting peer-to-peer without censorship. I mean I've argued with a lot of people about this
And so when you follow the track the track record on this
Clearly if you look at who's influencing. I mean it's his running mate's
Uh boyfriend who is runs a lightning network company
The where he's gotten his information is very similar to where trump has got trump has gotten his information from the winkle-eyed twins
Who donated a bunch of money to his campaign?
But here's my issue with rfk
At my issue with rfk is this he still thinks government can solve problems on a very fundamental basis even when you read his
Fauci book he he waxes poetic about fdr
You can't I like and so even this make america healthy again
Like this whole concept as well if you just had the right people in government you could fix it and it's the corporations that are bad
That's naive and absurd
And and by the way, he was gonna be lost me he lost me at reparations when he was ready to start having our reparations
I was you know, that's kind of big government that's worse right there
Well, but but but on top of that to show you how naive he is first of all
Well, he shocked that he didn't get a shot in the democrat primary
Was he not there in 2016 when birdie got shoved out?
Then he was shocked that he wasn't getting double digits as an independent this like does he is he that discount?
We're not the 1960s anymore. He is completely disconnected from how the political process works. So no matter how
Uh optimistic he may sound
Government can't fix any of the problems that he claims it can solve at a very basic level
so uh, but he's been completely co-opted and how he can sit there and talk about cronyism
while
He admitted that he put a huge percentage of his net worth in bitcoin and he proposed an even bigger bitcoin
Uh
Strategic reserve than Cynthia Loomis like this is truly
peak cronyism on both sides if anybody else if democrats were doing this
Under any other circumstance pro liberty people would be calling this cronyism
But since it's their coin now all of a sudden it's strategic
Which which is absurd
Very very good points. I just want to remind everybody we're doing this space to also just help provoke the minaretopia conference
That's why I have some of the
Speakers that will be at the conference and entertainers tatiata will be down there playing her music. Vlad will be hosting
Aaron will be a speaker
There might be some other speakers in the audience. Sorry if I didn't bring you up
You could you could jump up if you'd like
I'm hoping I'm hoping we could get some new eyes on minaretopia through having the space
Uh, some people have you know followings beyond just minaret. That's why I invited these people in particular
So it's just not the normal minaret crowd
So I'm hoping we could uh attract some of some of the followers beyond minaret. So guys, please
Like and retweet and spread this space. Let's see if we get some new eyes on minaret and minaretopia
Uh, the goal with minaretopia conference is to obviously discuss minaret
And really first and foremost
Build out a digital cash economy
So we have all all sorts of projects down there presenting on privacy tech
We have the minaret devs who go into detail presenting on upcoming minaret tech
and then we have talk from
You know people like Aaron and and liberty fighters that are talking about the you know
kind of the importance of digital cash in the first place
And uh, essentially why why all this matters. So, um, please please do
consider joining us down at the conference in mexico city
It's a month away in november
We keep tickets super cheap to get as many people involved as we can if you want to participate in any way you could email me minaretopia
at protonmail.com
And uh should also mention a big part of the conference is
That we hope people come down there and spend and use their minaret if we use it
We win is the tag line of the conference and I think it's it's actually just a great line in general for minaret
If we use it we win
I do honestly think it's as simple as that and that's what the minaretopia conference is all about
We have vendors you can basically live off the minaret for the four days you're there
And the hope is that once you leave minaretopia, you continue to attempt to live off of it using tools like xmr bizarre
And so that's what this stuff is all about guys
Please like and share let's get some people up here that have had hands raised or like to talk
Uh, I see ruben with your hand raised go ahead man
You got a good hey team
uh quick disclaimer, uh all school crypto bitcoin since about 2009 minarro since
I remember floating around 2012 2013 ish
um
Shout out to the minaret community for giving the middle finger to the markets after getting kicked out of the big
The that massive exchange
Uh, which is what I can predicted by the way like if there's anybody in the world
Who was salivating at the idea of getting kicked off at exchange and be the minaret kids picking tinfoil hat motherfuckers
Anyways point is uh, the reason I came up is I there's a new piece of technology that's come out in the last
Four or five months, uh known as graph rag
Um grasp being um graph data architecture. This is gonna get a little technical, but I won't be long
Um and rag being retrieval or went to generation, right? So it's it's a it's a useful way for the fancy ai
to look into
not just buckets of data
but to look across multiple buckets
and then
Reshaped that information in a way where it can draw things
From a broad array of complexity and distill that information in a way that we haven't been able to do thus far with traditional
um retrieval mechanisms or rag mechanisms
The reason why I bring it up here is it occurs to me
And I haven't found a lot of other people to who knows enough about both the crypto side of things and the llm side of things
To actually sort of sanity check this so it could be a squirrel
um, but it occurs that if one were to
uh
Jiggle a blockchain
Uh in terms like that the actual data architecture and treat it like if
well
For an lm to
respond to queries to
There's a non-zero likelihood that it could unpack mixers
And the biggest mixer I know is minero
I don't know what the implications of that is. I don't know how much of a tinfoil hat I'm wearing
But I bring it up because I think it's concerning
And if anybody in the room
Is that's very deep sort of protocol level. Yeah, that that that's a luke parker question
Especially with the implementation of full chain membership proof
um, I mean minero uses three basic technologies, right it's um
Uses stealth addresses for hiding who the receiver is he uses ring signatures for obfuscating the sender
And it uses confidential transactions for obfuscating the amounts
You know stealth addresses and confidential
Transactions are are true encryption. So
Um, you know, I don't I don't think using the tools that you're talking about would have make any headway there
um
But potentially there could be you know, like we were talking about the weaknesses with ring signatures
Uh could be a problem with something like what you're talking about
Um, but I would I would assume that full chain membership proofs would
Essentially eliminate concern there
I do, uh, it sounds like what you're talking about is
A way for chain, you know chain analysis on steroids. Uh, basically using ai to
essentially
Uh perfectly track and trace things if they have the data but
Uh, narrow the difference is quite a black hole and with full chain membership proofs
Um, even being quantum resistant for looking potentially in some ways according to luke
I do think we we might might be slightly ahead of ahead of the enemies with what you're talking about
But I could be wrong and it would be a great question topic to bring up at minarotopia
Uh to luke and maybe even when we have the minaro panel
Do you know to thank you for the time and attention if anybody wants uh to nerd out on the side
They're listening to this conversation. Yeah, and I would I would encourage you to uh, if you're not attending in person
Um, obviously would be great if you did and you can ask that question
But even if not I would encourage you to try to participate virtually with the conference
And uh ask that question during q&a for either luke or for when we have the minaro panel
I think it would be great
And you're always welcome to you know, join anything that i'm doing the minarotopia shows or anything
And if uh, I ever have it be on that you think is you know
Could answer that question to jump in and ask it if I don't
You know what I do have a question for you specifically dolus
I don't I don't see a lot of community builders the minaro like I do
In many I I personally identify as chain agnostic
Um, I like a lot of the theses, but I'm not a I'm not a big bag holder any particular
Um, and as a side effect of that, you know, I might check on the minaro kids
I say I use the term affectionately, maybe like twice or three times per year, right?
Same with another, you know, a few dozen chains
Um, one thing I noticed in particular about minaro community
Uh, is that you don't see a lot of community builders
Comparatively and I'm wondering how your experience is
Um, whether there's any sort of peculiarities in building community, uh, you know structured around
A technology which is fundamentally, um, sort of strives for true anonymity and uh, data privacy
Yeah, you know, it's not easy being uh, the guy who's out there trying to
Um, I don't want to see it be the face of minaro because I definitely don't want to be
Be considered the face of minaro, but a guy who's out there being the public facing portion of minaro
Um, I think there are not a lot of community builders for you know, the reasons you're talking about right
So minaro is very crypto anarchist cypher punk aligned people like maintaining their anonymity
It's why they're into minaro for the first place and in their privacy
So it just doesn't really jive to you know build community publicly with when you have those values
I I'm of the argument that you know, we need to you know
There needs to be some people like me that go out and try to spread minaro beyond those that already know it
Because that's the only way we're going to grow. That's why I ran for congress in 2020. I don't know
I guess I just fit that particular niche honestly. It doesn't come naturally to me either
Believe it or not. I'm quite the introvert. I'm quite the actually kind of natural minaro minded type of person
Uh, I want to just be left alone. I want my privacy
My dream is that one day I could walk away from all this and kind of ride off into the sunset
And you know, it not have to not have to be out there talking about it
But actually living the life that I'm preaching that we I hope we all can live with the tool like minaro, but
Uh, I also see it as a blessing that I'm here at the right place at the right time
And I'm able to use the skills that I have to help grow this community
I'm not a developer. I'm not a programmer. I'm not a crypto, you know, a cryptologist, but a cryptographer
But I think understands the tech quite well and uh, and and personally
Very excited about its potential and in principled in a way where I completely aligned with what it stands for so
The little the part that I can do is is what I am doing and uh, but I don't I don't think there's too many of me out there
There's most of them are way too smart to be doing what I'm doing and to be out here
publicly trying to promote minaro
Aaron I think falls into that falls into that category not saying he he's not intelligent
He certainly he certainly, uh, you know beats me in that area as well, but he seems to also be of this type
Um that is out there on the front lines looking to talk about it
There there needs to be people like us doing these things
Otherwise we'll all be in our little our little tiny community here and never grow beyond it
So do you guys think that there's a way as
Um these people kind of on the front line to protect ourselves
I mean, I don't know how you guys feel about like the tornado cash guy, but that to me is really scary
Well, right what happened to him and I think that there's going to be more heads on the spike
My mom always said oh the first people that you're rid of is the dissidents and the artists and the
Intelligenceia right and so we're all at the forefront. Is there a way to kind of protect ourselves from this?
I think I think one of the ways and I'll I'll sorry. I'll let you jump in room
But I'll just come I think one of the ways to protect ourselves
Obviously, it's important to have a large subset of the community ring remain and not us right
Especially the devs the large section of the devs right so they can't even be approached the for you know
They basically don't even exist. There is nobody no door to knock on right? I think that's extremely important
But I think the users those of us that are just users
Depending on what your attack vector is
I mean if you're doing things that you shouldn't be doing with it then sure, you know stay out of the line left
But if you're somebody like myself who is uh, not doing it, you know, I who doesn't have anything to hide, right?
Um, you know be out there use it and use it proudly and to talk about how it aligns with the values of america
And if enough of us start to talk about it openly
We change the framing of it to the point where if a government were to attack somebody like me
Hopefully there would be uproar not just among the you know
The thousands of us that are already believers, but among general society you're saying wait a minute
Don't human just seems like a guy who believes in free speech
A guy who believes that we should have the freedom to
Transact a guy who's just using some open source tool. I don't really see what's wrong with that
That's kind of like, you know putting somebody in jail for I don't know being behind craigslist or something, right?
so I do think there's that it's a potential approach is by
Uh, you know
Changing the framing and getting enough of us publicly talking about it in in the true positive way
It should be discussed so that it doesn't have this pejorative. Um, you know
Well, I have to push back on that just a little because here's the thing
Where I was in DC and I interviewed some guy and he was one of the january six people
He didn't do anything. He literally didn't do anything and you've got a ton of different people
I mean he had scurvy. They let him out after 34 months
I don't remember what he did like went in there and like he like was talking to the cops and like he didn't
You know, obviously insurrect. I mean the whole thing is preposterous to begin with
But he spent 34 months in prison. He got beaten up by the guards. He was treated differently
He got scurvy for price sake
and
I mean more people way more people care about january six people than they care about us
So i'm not so sure that that's enough of a protection. I mean everybody knew that what was happening to asanj was a horror
And it was a disgrace and it took 10 years for him, essentially
To be let out and he's still seeking a pardon because basically by letting him out
They were uh, he was admitting his guilt and and so now that
Um
precedent has been set that they're able to do that
So i'm just not so hopeful about the people like the masses of people being like, no, don't do that
That's not fair has any impact on the overlords at all. Yeah, I don't disagree with you
I don't disagree with you. Um, that's you know, that's what justified
That's what I used to justify my existence as I could say to bring some
Rational, I mean, maybe maybe what i'm doing is just purely irrational
Well, I mean somebody's got to have balls
So i'm glad that you're doing it like people can't be wooses and only be driven by you know fear at the end of the day
We're all gonna die
So if we have to die for something it might as well be something worthwhile
But prefer not to die would prefer not to end up like ross olbrich
You know or or any of these other poor
My daughter my daughter would be quite upset
Besides if I had to forward to get thrown in jail because of the narrow but
Yeah, I don't know some of us some of us just have to you know one life to live Tatiana one one life
I hear you. I mean, I'm not like I remember many years ago
I went to jordan page another musician like liberty musician and I said jordan
What's gonna happen? I don't want to go to the fema camps. He's like, oh honey, don't worry
We won't go to the fema camps. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, I was all happy
He's like, yeah, they're gonna kill us and I'm like, oh
Oh, so like I think that that's kind of what we're looking at. Everybody thinks we live in this modern society and things are so cozy
But I mean it looks like uh, you know, like the soviet union or something here in the united states right now
So I don't know again me with the black pills, but I'm just concerned. I would prefer not to suffer
I would prefer for us to all have like nice and happy lives
But I don't know what that tipping point is gonna be but without the risk
Of people like the people in this group and you know the some of the liberty people like we won't have any kind of
Choice right there has to be a tipping point where enough people
Care and you you start with smaller numbers and it grows from there
But I was really horrified hearing that guy's story about what happened to him
And uh, yeah, it was just really scary, you know, and it's it's happening to tons of different people
It is it is it is it is very scary and yeah, basically
You know, it's it's a choice that people have to make right if they you know
If if if if if they're
If they feel the passion enough to where they're willing to fight the fight and they're okay dealing with the consequences
Then they should go for it
But um, if they don't they feel like they would regret if something happened to them
They shouldn't do it. I have myself. Um, you know, I'm looking to fight the fight
Ruben
Can I just add something there real quick? I of course I would
I would just say this so the default is that we're all going to be we're going to lose our rights
We've been losing our rights
I mean after covet and then all the surveillance infrastructure put in there
And then what's going on with our financial transactions already being surveilled of what's going on with cvdc's the way that I look at this
And I guess the way I rationalize what I'm doing is the default position is slavery
The default position is not that we're never going back to before
Code that's not even available to us. There is no reforming of the existing political system
So I look at it this way
The risky thing is not doing what we're doing
Because if we don't do what we're doing right now
There isn't any alternative as they push cvdc's and they push all this other tyranny. So we we're providing the only possibility
There is
Of having a shot to not get into this complete digital tyranny. But with that said I was deeply
impacted in doing all of this by
Sitting in on Ian freeman's sensing hearing where he got eight months for selling bitcoin without a license and I'd actually
Uh messaged roger veer and I asked him if he'd help
Promote and reshare my tweet so we could get turnout and then seven and a half months later
He's arrested in spain. I'm going to be launching something before
Mineratopia at kind of a free roger campaign as well in a petition because
What's going on with him is horrendous?
Nobody knows anything about it and it literally impacts all of us because if they're able to
Fully prosecute roger based on what they're doing it will affect every single person that holds cryptocurrency and every single person that holds bitcoin
Do you think you could actually give us like an update as to what's going on with roger?
Somebody asked me about him yesterday or a couple days ago and I honestly had no answer
I was like, I don't even know what's going on with that case
I don't know if other people are in the same boat, but uh other than their arrest
I haven't really heard very much
Which are you enlightening us a little bit if everybody's interested
Hey, hey tatiana before we go on that. Do you want to hear an alternative take on your earlier?
Sure, definitely, but I yeah, let's come back to roger thing, but I'd love to hear it. Absolutely
Sweet um
In my personal opinion the reason that all cryptos of all kinds have gotten as large as they have
um
Is not because they sought the
assistance or alignment of any particular government organization or even any organization
Uh in the world so far, right the reason that they've thrived despite material and
Adversarial efforts
Is because uh in order for laws or terms or preferences
To mean something they need to be enforceable and so far
All laws or preferences that any government has seen fit to declare
Um have proven unenforceable, right?
Um, and you know, like it's not a coincidence that pirate bay is still crushing it after 20 years
um
You know with every major government that's trying to push them
um
The the best way to to protect yourself and to protect the broader initiative
Um from a technological aspect from a security aspect from a
Um a political aspect from a cultural aspect is to use it
Just just use it. That's the best thing you can do
If we use it, we're wet man. If we use it, we wet, right?
Yeah, I mean it's like gondi y'all know the story about gondi with the salt how
Britain was like you can't make salt because we sell it to you
And then gondi had this big old, you know
Train and they walked out and he made some salt and suddenly it was making salt. What are you gonna do?
Stop everyone jaywalking just use it
I mean, I think that would be great
I just want everybody to wake up because everybody so far like
I like the point about it doesn't need to be so many people
But i'm just saying like god if you look at how many people are at that stupid trump rally
It's like jesus christ showed up himself. I mean it's really kind of embarrassing
And so that's why i'm kind of disheartened with where the populace is at like they're waking up but not fully
And uh, and I just worry that a lot of these kind of new lords and saviors are not really on our side
And they're just kind of like controlling the narrative saying we'll just make government better like look at uh
Look at this whole like make america healthy again. I'm like, I don't know sounds kind of communist to me
Like I don't know. I mean people are like, oh, well, then they'll ban the red seven and the blue 14
I guess that could work
But I don't know that that does seem to be a little bit sketchy too
But I hear you I think that there's a lot of power and just simple disobedience
And it's like yeah come and take it suckers
So, you know, we we definitely are building a bunch of people out in in this uh group here and through other kind of groups
That are also passionate about these same subjects. I get discouraged with censorship
Which I still find is prevalent on a lot of different platforms
I guess x is better than in other places
But then I feel like seeing some censorship
It kind of makes people think that they're in a free place
But they're not because it's just less censored than other places. So they become complacent
But I think that there's a lot of good solutions that you guys are talking about and uh,
You know, there's some hope there but overall
I'm just grumpy
I'm just like I'm tired of people just being like looking for like a solution with government
And it's just sickening and annoying and I'm just over it
Yeah, like let them have let them have any opinion that they could possibly want
Show me one time where any initiative by any government official in any country
Um has materially impacted
I mean
Any like meaningful aspect of crypto
You know what actually I have a caveat to that
Isolating certain cryptocurrencies as assets versus, uh, you know
Means of exchange or like there's been like a couple of things but like nothing's really moved the needle
Uh, I just don't understand why
Well, people are inclined to obey. That's the other problem, right? Like you don't like
Like one of the annoying things that I found is that like the judges and courts and pops all both
Oh and Stolf, I'm gonna
Good luck with that loser because that's the whole thing like you tell the cops. Oh, somebody stole my car. Here's their picture
They don't do anything
So I think that we're kind of under this illusion
In general, like the people are under this spell like they watch tv and they think that they know what's going on
They watch their, you know, law and order. Oh, yeah
I mean and then they think that oh, well now I'm going to tell the police if something's wrong and they're going to do something
About it. So I think there's there's definitely an awakening and as the system falls apart
Like even seeing what's happening in north carolina and how useless fema is
I think that's really good for people in terms of like the larger group of people learning that. Oh, wow
Maybe we can't depend on these people. So, um, you know, I think as things fall apart
We might have some some more people coming over to our team
So like no one's is going to change in my opinion. I think
Everyone that is smart is already here
And yeah, there may be some stragglers that are need to arrive
but overall
The the only choice we have left
Is to sigh up people the masses
The npcs the people you just um describe tatiana
You got to sigh up them into
using good technology
That's that's really that has been my conclusion and
And the way to do that is by embracing
The stupidity that everyone else is embracing within crypto
so you can't
um
Express or talk or market
crypto that you love
In a way that targets the people that are already here because you're not going to expand your your reach
You're you're just going to keep talking to the same
People but if you embrace the stupidity of the masses
You'll be able to sigh up people because now you're dealing with a world that is
that is um
You're in a in a in a war of sigh ups
So you have to counter sigh up
By and it's really simple. It's just by having fun
Just think of like the craze with meme coins
so if you start
For example, if the monero community starts embracing meme coins and treats
Monero as a meme coin and does an excellent job at it
Then the
network can expand
Easily double in size in my opinion, but you have to be great. He's making like a pump dot fun for monero that I don't know about
But you'll have to have a sigh up for your consideration
Uh mean coins maybe but what if what if we just had things
And then refuse to sell them for anything but monero. I like that
I love that
Dude, that is awesome. Maybe I'm gonna talk about that. Maybe with the team
Just force people to buy with monero. That's not bad. Um, that's not a bad idea
Um, the thing is is that it depends. Look, this is the the real issue here guys is the following
Is that there is a different understanding between what digital cash is for?
and the monero community the privacy coin community in general
is still
Caught on within the idea that a digital currency is to be used in real life
In with real world assets
And what we are learning right now is is that
people are so desperate
for you know as you know people are
As time goes on and and people are more desperate economically
They're going to be seeking outlets to the real world economy to make profit. They're seeking
asymmetrical bets in the market
And we have the emergence of these of the imagination economy that people are calling like tatiana said pump dot fun
I know that sounds retarded to a lot of you because it is
but in order to
Where human creativity is going you have to be willing to go there
Lord of the Rings was just an idea in Tolkien's mind
Now there is a tourist
um attraction where you can go and visit
uh, we're Frodo journeyed in where the film was was was was taken in new zealand to mount doom, right?
A tourist attraction came out of someone's imagination and what we have to realize is is that
our creative potential as human beings is to be expressed
On chain or in the on the internet
Digital assets allow us to create these economies that then later on will manifest themselves in physical space
We've learned over and over again that it does not work the other way
Using real world assets to have a counter
existence
in in digital space
The origin the origination of of ingenuity does it doesn't come from
The physical boomer space anymore
And and I think that the if you guys really want to grow and expand
um, you there you have to understand that there is a
Meta counter culture now that has happened in crypto
So you us right here speaking we're talking from a generation of first users
Where we still have this anonymous ambiance about what happened, right?
there is the reality of fiat which is like
This this is negative but serious
It has a seriousness to it and we we have a counter culture to that which is the cypher punk counter culture
That is best manifested in monero
Where's that there's a new level of seeing that I want to that I really want you guys to consider
Which is to make fun of the whole thing
That is what the the kids now are doing
They saw what happened with us
They saw that there was a dollar. They saw that there was a big coin
They saw that there was monero and they saw that the dollar could be opposed
But they understood that what they didn't like and what they that the young generation doesn't like is
The seriousness by which we talk about this by which we engage this
So they're taking this to the next level conceptually
which is
Money could be just a token of fun. It doesn't have to have this allure of seriousness every anymore
So
We have to break out of that shell and and and really
and
join with the fun
And I and that's kind of like what I really want
People to to really explore, you know, at least we open to it
Because if if we're still talking within this dichotomy that involves
seriousness
And we're never going to break out of that shell. We're never going to inspire anyone else
Especially the young generation the young generation of of crypto
Entrepreneurs and adopters don't care for this vibe anymore
Those that care for this vibe are us that are here
That understand the gravitas of what we're talking about
But in order to reach a wider audience and to onboard people to awesome tech
You don't need to have that conversation anymore. You can put that conversation on the mental nursery home
Okay, that was like a conversation to be had 10 years ago
We know it exists
But what I'm I'm imploring you guys and everyone listening is like guys
We don't have to be so serious about this anymore
Like the smarter way to approach this
Is by making fun and having fun
Like really embrace mean coins and start seeing Monero as just another mean coin and have fun with it
I mean, I guess I guess I
Disagree with this. Okay. So rat Rafael will be at the conference
We had a actually a good conversation about this a couple weeks ago. People want to listen to you tell
It's an interesting take
But ultimately, you know, I think you know the young kids. They also might be cool with dystopia
And technocracy. So they got to be woken up. They can't they can't be just we can't we can't we can't be dragged down
There road just because everybody else is getting, you know
Going down this dopamine rush tech technocratic dystopia doesn't mean we should all you know go along with it too
I think we got to be the adults in the room and teach people why privacy matters
Why technocracy is so real and remind people why this stuff is so utterly important
I mean, we could have fun while we're doing it
But I don't think there's anything more fun than teaching people about the need to preserve our liberty and the digital age and
The real use case is just using this stuff. I mean meme coins also. Yeah, it's great
It's great. You know if there's ways that
Monero can be more memafied for sure
But uh, I don't think we should let the you know, let the masses distract us
from the mission
Well, and I would just add to that that you know
The young people don't have any money
And they don't value privacy
So boomers are actually because I've traveled the 24 states and most of these workshops that I do
Are boomers and nothing tells you about
Where we stand and actually trying to onboard 100 or 200 boomers at one time
We need to have so we haven't tapped out all the market at all
We haven't even begun to tap out the market because kovat happened
And then the dollars lost 25 of its value
Purchasing power in the last four years
So boomers now understand and especially boomers who are small business owners
They're looking for alternative payment systems. We have nothing to offer
As far as a point of sale system is concerned
So what we need to focus on is actually having easy to use tools and going to the people that actually have money
And understand privacy. That is a wide open market. There are tens of millions of those people in the united states
I meet them all of the time. These are these are what my
Workshops revolve around but on the mean coinage job would say this. Here's the problem that I have with this
We're doing mean coins, which are zero
Stumb propositions. They're all Ponzi's. They're all rug pulls. There's no economics
I mean, I think we have a whole generation of people that don't understand
Voluntary exchange where both parties actually benefit and I don't blame them
They've been indoctrinated and they've had to deal with the consequences of the federal reserve
But while they've been promoting mean coins
Regulated liability network and cbdc's are going on real world assets are being tokenized
And they're being tokenized in a way that is completely
dystopian that have all of the programmability
And censorship that we all don't like about cbdc's
They're doing this with all of the other asset classes and they're investing hundreds of millions of dollars
To build this and and all people are doing on our side are are flipping
It's a lot of mean coins and so we're going to end up in a situation where
Again, everybody's going to get crushed
And regulated out of business and all of the assets are going to be on this common global framework
Well, if the vibe was fun, you would have tons of thousands of people listening to this post right now
You wouldn't have to host
A conference in physical space. You we would be a lot more efficient and a lot more viral
So make fun, man. I mean make it make it fun to our area
Definitely, I thought I'm filling this little bit. The amount of water is just it's just changing the mindset of like how you approach and how you
Embrace the market, you know, it's it's uh
No one is saying I'm not saying to do away with what really matters or not teach what really matters
But rather understand what Tatiana was saying
That most people have been conditioned to be stupid
So meet them where they're at meet them at that stupidity at that level
I I guess I would say go with the typical adoption curve where
Innovators represent the first two and a half percent. Then you have early adopters that are 13 and a half percent
Then you have early majority, which is 34 percent late majority, which is 34 percent and then ligers all ideas follow an adoption curve
Let's focus on galvanizing the two and a half percent
Rather than try to sigh up the mass market because that's not how any any technology or idea progresses anyway
What should we do? Well narrow hasn't really grained much
Since it last hit all the time I so what always been done has not been working
Beyond what has it's like repeating the same thing over and over again, right?
Repeating the same arguments repeating the same two market strategies
So you sooner or later
You know and I commend you for doing what you're doing
But sooner or later you got to figure out, you know ask yourself. Well, okay, how about we try another strategy, right?
That's all I'm proposing here
Well, I disagree to the extent that I think that the strategy employed by Monero promoters is if anything ahead of its time
Because up to this point there wasn't much demand for the kind of privacy that Monero provides
And for a long time it's been fine to just be on this public ledger because nobody taught that blockchain analysis will catch up
Well, it did catch up and I think at this point in history
there
I I don't think that there was ever a moment when demand for privacy was this high
From the situation in brazil to what's happening in the middle east
I think it's only a matter of time until demand catches on and
I'm pretty sure that there is some suppression coming from nation states or
Private actors that don't want Monero to succeed
So I'm pretty sure that they are shorting it on certain markets
And they're making sure that the price doesn't hit all time high specifically because they're afraid of it
Yeah, all of that is true. Everything you guys are saying is is very true
But you guys are very much
Have you guys seen the bell curve me?
We have the jedi the guy frustrated in the middle and then there's like the retard
You know the grok on the left side of the curve. Well, the vast majority of people on the left side of the curve
That's just the truth
So by all means try to get more people that are already on the right side of the curve
Then understand what's going on
But if you want to go viral
Just remember sequoia capital
Went after, you know, they're famous for what they put out, you know that they go after things, you know tech
They reinvest in tech that promotes
Bites is right seven capital sins, right for a purpose for a reason, right because that is what the masses
Are attracted to the conditioned psi off masses are attracted to I'm not saying to go degen
I'm not saying to to throw away your morals or not teach
No, it's it's a lure
How do you
Get this
How do you get this as an introduction to people that have never heard of this before?
And in order to do that, you have to
Be okay to embrace your inner retard
And the problem with the monero community is that it's so smart that just me talking about this will trigger some like
No, no, no, no, we have to be pure. We have to be very concrete. We have to talk about what matters, but
I'm just letting you know that a lure of seriousness
Drives people away
Especially the conditioned the masses most people in the monero community would just say
um, you know if you if you have
Something some idea that you think would
Uh, I'll help monero grow in adoption and just you know start running with that idea
And if if it does in fact do that
Um, I don't think there'd be more people behind you than uh, and you would it's you know than otherwise, right?
So it's like what what is the idea right so like anybody could say let's make let's make monero more fun and attractive like so like
Obviously, yeah, like let's grow monero adoption, but how
What is the how there's also the monero tan meme with the anime girls who are wearing monero costumes
And it's fun to a degree. I think it does appeal to the fortune sort of audience
But it's also a need to it and a need
You
Rafael do you have do you have specific thoughts on what what the what this
How this can be implemented, you know, how how do you envision making it more meme side?
I mean i'll just off the cuff imagine an nft series that had um, monero
So randomly thrown into various different nfts
Say something like that could be fun
And then you could start trading wrapped monero
On these blockchains one thing you guys I know in the monero community. I haven't heard anyone talk about this
but
Trading see the where the where the whole space is moving is that the space is moving away from centralized exchanges
We're turning blockchains into exchanges
so
The bitcoin itself could be seen as an exchange
with a greater market cap than
Anything binance would ever have because there's more people that control their private keys than there is
Of bitcoin held in custody in binance
So if you treat bitcoin or solana as exchanges then why aren't you guys why aren't there people?
You you know trading wrapped monero on those exchanges and maybe having fun by having like games with through
Monero pegged
nfts for example
so as you know all of this it comes down to just
thinking outside the box and realize that
It's it's in
It's by gamifying these these uh this experience that you go viral
It's not by buying or coffee with monero
That's that that doesn't go viral. I'm sorry that doesn't go by
that
That's not something that goes viral anymore
But if goes viral to what end I mean who cares I mean the reality is we're facing an actual crisis where
Currency itself is becoming more centralized
More tracked and the government is trying to shut down on everything else
If you have something that goes viral and people are doing nfts. How does that stop?
The fundamental issue and the fact that our currency is turning into a dystopian nightmare just because something goes viral doesn't mean that
You're going to go from oh, this is an nft now. I'm going to start using it as peer-to-peer digital cash
Well, you can keep doing what you're then doing
Or you guys can try to approach it
We can try both
I mean people can probably give you a whole suggestion
This is just a conversation that i'm throwing out there since you know, you guys that we're talking
Tatiana brought the notion that
People won't change then she's these people being conditioned like that
She really wants people to wake up, right?
Because if everyone woke up and understood the reality as you so well articulate erin
Then we wouldn't have to have this conversation. But the truth is is that we have a bunch of
Zombie zombified addicted
masses
So I guess like addiction you have to make dopamine addiction your friend is what i'm telling you
Monero with some sort of dopamine addiction
Whoever unlocks that whoever tries different things of that
That's a way to make this whole network more viral
I think it's great that they're here on this app because of your own dopamine addiction
Everyone is being styop
And if you don't counter styop if you don't use these technologies if you don't use
Degeneracy and this dopamine addiction to lead people to more wholesome networks
Then you're gonna you're gonna have the same zombified people
Move towards more of a dystopia of using
Centralized networks with high surveillance. So it's our choice
do we
Do we remain rigid and just talk about digital cash and that you should just spend monero whenever you buy coffee
Or do you embrace the world as is?
Factor the stupidity of the masses into your equation of how to promote this
Or you don't and I think it's wise
The factor in
The dopamine addiction of the men
Yeah, I don't think buddy would disagree with you if you have some invention some way of
Implementing dopamine a dopamine inducing apps that utilizes monero. I mean build it
Build it. I don't think yeah. I don't think anybody disagrees there or would want it would not want to build that
I mean in terms of like, you know
Focusing by coffee with monero. I mean it's it's much larger than that, right?
It's people living off the monero, right? So we started with coffee
And now we have xmr bizarre where it's it's not maybe quote-unquote going viral
In terms of what we're normally used to being what's viral these days, but it is
Growing in a very healthy way more listings and more users every day
And every new listing and every new user
Um is somebody that's opting out of the system. So they're not only
Growing monero, but they're killing the current system by leaving it
And so that's that's the real that's the real goal
If there's ways to memify that if there's apps to build that get people to do that in
Faster by all means or if there's any any way to just create a fun viral app that you know ties into what monero does best
Which is cheap
private transactions
Yeah, and I don't think anybody would be opposed to that and it's an open source tool that anybody can build with to build upon
Um, yeah, people are listening to what rafael has to say is down and is an enthused by it and has ideas
Go build
Well, let me give you then
The framework on how to cook
first and foremost
You cook things that are on chain. So you marry another blockchain that is more capable like btc or solana
Um to do whatever you want it on chain open source
And let it be interoperable
So people can wrap monero into these blockchains and use these blockchains as exchanges
What isn't that you cook you cook things that are simple to cook
That are new things I have not been seen before as new as possible and you seek liquidity
You seek an asymmetric bet not just for the creators
The first users are folders, but also for the users on day one
The funding and the co-creative ethos that we are seeing happening with on chain endeavors is is is um
It's just a breeding ground for these ideas
So I would be very wise if anyone is interested in this to go learn from the solana community go learn from the
Bitcoin on chain community really go embrace that
you'll learn a lot of things
and um
So you want to cook things on chain open source interoperable
You want to be you want you want these what you cook needs to be simple new and liquid
and
Yeah, you just want you want this to be an whatever you build has to be
An experience where everyone has a potential to win so it's not you know if you create a game
It's not it shouldn't be a 50 50 odds of winning everyone should be winning from day one
And you're inviting everyone to co-create this together on chain
All right
If any if there's any devs out there that are that are hearing this
Build build away. I don't yeah, I don't think anybody would disagree with
you roughly all on on the need for
perhaps
Somebody to find the killer app the Monero based killer app is it is the Monero based killer app just using it for
Digital cash purposes for buying and selling things. I don't know maybe not
But I think that's that's its primary use case as a as of today and it's something to tap into
But yeah, there's if there's other things that are that are more sexy more dopamine inducing
But love to see them get built
Anybody else want to jump up and ask questions? I see some people got booted as speakers. So I'll bring them back up
Um, if there's
Anybody else that wants to come up
Now's the time raise your hand and we'll bring you up
Hey guys, I actually just wanted to to say goodbye because I have to go right now
but um, this was a great conversation old friends and
uh, make some new ones and uh, I encourage everybody to come and join us
I think it's going to be rocking and uh, I'll try and have some
I actually have a new cover song that I'll I'll be playing that I think you guys will be familiar with
That will be on on brand. So we'll stay in you know, we'll stay in touch online
And then I'll get to see you guys all in mexico city
So thank you very much for inviting me on the spaces and down to mexico and i'm looking forward to
Uh, getting my stuff onto that marketplace you've got too. So that'll be fun
Thank you. That's yada. Thank you for stopping by today giving us your time
It's super excited to chill with you down in mexico in aerotopia
Um
Thanks, everyone. Yes, very excited to see you soon. Thank you so much. Tatiana. Thank you. Yep
Um, yeah, anybody else want to jump up? Um
Please do now is the time now is the time we have just to you know, just to give everybody an idea here
So we have just a few of the speakers from the aerotopia here
But there are many many more that will be at monarotopia. We have
Francisco Cabanas, Luke Parker, Justin Bierman, Jeff Rowe
Those are all monaro devs that will be there speaking and we'll be doing panels as well
We have a mere toky will be representing dark thigh and just you know
A true cypher punk has been in the game from very early days one of the first
You know, monaro, uh bitcoin devs actually we have rocktonium who's a monaro, uh lab researcher
We have pavel looptech. We have who's a
Libertarian and
Cypher punk crypto anarchists old school. We have Rachel rose from dark thigh. We have Ralph von
Wegberg. He's he's a pretty cool dude. He's been doing studying how monaro is used on a dark markets
He's done some great presentation on that in the past
Uh, so he'll be giving us some amazing insights. We have Liam Egan
Who's a researcher and cryptographer at alpin labs?
We have val crypto soul from zano and actually the the whole zano team will be there. We have lola elites
Independent journalists. She's done a great job at writing about the
Recent court cases like tornado cash and samurai wallet. They're very base takes
She will be presenting. We have michael hazard and tor eaklin from the
firm tor eaklin law
Super awesome guys. They'll be there talking from a legal standpoint. We have sterlin luhann
Uh, which probably a lot of you have come across now recently. He's doing a great job
It's spreading kind of the the crypto anarchists and just the anarchist vibe and generally have derrick bros and john bush
Founders of the freedom cell network
Uh, and among among many other things that they're doing as as freedom fighters our day, of course
Who's here with us today set for privacy?
Uh, john murphy from wild narrow ruben yap from fero rafael. Who's here? Obviously jeff burrick
Hopefully we'll be joining him. We have con grayho
He's the communication speakers from basic swap basic swap is a dex that's uh growing in popularity
It's based on atomic swaps people are using it to obtain venero anonymously
We have wood sir. Who's the lead developer of the veno? Veno is uh, kind of is basically it's venero based
exchange
Decentralized, you know, everybody running their own soft software their own instance of veno. It's unstoppable something that can't be shut down
Uh, it's not it's not uh atomic swap base, but um, it is it is unstoppable and it's in its own right
and it's it's being used and growing for purposes of
Trading venero into other cryptos peer-to-peer. So it puts buyers and sellers together peer-to-peer kind of kind of like
Local venero, but in a decentralized way where there's no centralized company running it
Uh, so that's very exciting. We have andres and a swale of bitcoin who will be running the spanish component of the conference
So we'll have a bunch of talks in spanish as well for locals and all of this guys
I got to mention is uh sponsored our main stage sponsor
Is cake wallet, uh, definitely have to mention that but for them
We wouldn't be able to take these risks and put on these amazing conferences
We have a bunch of other amazing sponsors on board
But kind of call a cake while because they are the main space main stage sponsor
And bit main actually is uh our other main stage sponsor. They haven't they haven't paid their their bill yet
But they uh, they said they're in they said they're the main stage sponsors. So super excited to have them
Uh, especially given that venero is built to be acic resistant
So very curious and interesting that they're uh and interested as to as to why they're they want to be a part of
Monero topia, but uh, we welcome them and are excited to hear from them
And hopefully we'll I'll have them on a monero talk or monero topia to get there get their point
But just wanted to get all that info out there
That's why we're here today trying to spread the conference
Uh, I see some people that requested. I'll let you guys do some chatting and uh, we'll close it down in a little bit
But let's let's keep it going out things are pretty hot
We've got a bunch of people in the room guys like and share
We're gonna let let people come up ask some questions to vlad and our new still here
And rafael and whoever else wants to jump up
Go ahead guys whoever wants to
jump in
Maybe, uh, I see john as a speaker I brought up john
I see the laser eyes
So I don't know we might we might be getting a bitcoin take here, which is fine
Bitcoiners are welcome john. What's going on man?
Oh looks like you got booted i'll try again
John are you there?
John with the laser eyes and the lightning
Oh
What's up guys are you listening to me? I'm having some problems with vpn here. No worries. No worries
Yeah, uh
Twitter is banned from Brazil
In fact, the day he started today. I think you're not be
Not need vpn again
So, uh
I just came up to say
Because the other guy was talking about
Dopamine and uh, I think a cool way to have a dopamine on another
For monero is integration with noster because noster is I don't know because vlad's there
mostly is
used for
with lightning tips, but there is there are instances of
Uh
There are an app called
Garnet that has uh
monero tips and a linked uh
Website called mostard. That's a noster clients with modern integration too
So I think building
centralized noster applications clients with monero is a great way to have a dopamine and
We don't need to use
X so much
So that's just it
All right, very cool. Great idea is crypt of vigilati ever response to that. I don't know. I mean noster is obviously, uh
Very very ideal in terms of uh, you know, decentralized privacy perspective, but does it does it
Does it tickle the fancy in terms of being easy to use?
For these dopamine-seaning kids that just want
you know
I gotta correct you there because it's not very good for privacy
In the sense that anyone can see who sent you tips and who sent you dms
But they cannot see the content of the dms. So in some regards, it's worse than twitter
It's just good for censorship resistance. And that's what it was built for. Good point. Good point
But also, I guess the point I'm trying to make though is is so is it does it also get the usability aspect?
correct
There are a couple of apps that you can install on pretty much every OS and it I think it's gotten better
It's more reliable than it was before
It just so the reason why I don't like it
I mean, I like it for what it is, but I don't use it as much
For the simple reason that the people I hate or the people with whom I argue on twitter
Are not there. So it's just a friendly safe space where people get around and they have fun and giggles
And they post memes and it's just an echo chamber. And I would like the people like
the president of dcb or
The politicians or web right troll on twitter. I would like to see them on noster, but we're not there yet
Right
The tabs are there. We can't control them
But another thing is at the Scott's app called amethyst
It's integrating a lot of privacy features. For example, these dms
They do not are not seeing if you're using amethyst or another app called 0x chat
Or there is a nip that doesn't make it visible
Amethyst also integrated tor inside the app. So
It does not leak rfe
It's just a question of
Bringing more
developer of privacy should make it noster better for privacy too
Right. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I don't know if rafael has any response to that
Ruben I see your request to speak to headman
Yeah, so
I like manero. I like I I've always loved manero. I think I might like manero more than any other want actually
Which is weird for agnostic to say
But there's something just so pure and hardcore and middle finger about it. Like it really I you know what it is
It's the cypher punk. It's the cypher punk that vibes with the
We'll do it live
So
And so there's that part but like
Then I bring it up because like it when thinking about
products goods and services
Or sort of economic pods or incentive pads and so on and so forth
That one might
You know historically use in a traditional software perspective from a different software perspective or like social media technology or you know at the crypto
You know projects and center out on different chains
Fundamentally structured for different purposes, right
Without mentioning any names
It's there's a lot of like mechanical stuff
Where the kinds of features and functionality that you that you might seek on other platforms may not necessarily vibe
With the underlying principles of what manero was structured around right so
You know basically any any additional information that you're adding to a transaction
To an extent that it can be sort of verifiable on chain
um, and
It could reduce the relative security of any particular transaction might be perfect
It has unique characteristics. So, you know, even if it's something as simple as
You know, if I if I put my name in the the tx transaction, then you'll know it's me
It's in it, but you know at the same time it will stop being an honest, right?
Um still it makes me wonder whether or not some of the
Some of the properties around the the mixing element in terms of like, um ring signatures
Could it be possible to leverage the ring signature mechanism
to create a kind of, um
noise generator
for multiple parties who seek to
interact with various pieces of software on the internet
But who don't want those pieces of software to know specifically who's accessing them
and so they create a ring
a ring
mechanism so that the it's kind of like a weird sort of shared VPN almost
where
The piece of software so it's a lot around here
The software in question, whether it's, you know, a social media site or something else
Can't exactly interpret who which part of this particular ring is interacting with it at any particular time
Because much of the same way that it uses ring signatures to sort of distribute
The
The nature of the transaction
Almost like an onion router sort of spreads spreads the the attack surface across multiple nodes
I wonder whether something could be done
To allow for individuals to interact with systems that very much seek your personal information
But in this case couldn't get access to it
Um, because you're using kind of the same account, but not really does that make any sense?
Yeah, I think I'm following you but uh, yeah once again, man, you need to come down
I'm gonna ask ask the devs which are much much more much more intelligent than I am
And I will say also remember we are getting full chain membership proofs. So
Um, I don't I don't think while it's an interesting idea
I think hopefully we won't have to really think about ways to make ring signatures work better soon because it's
The you know with full chain membership proofs. They basically get deprecated
But interesting concepts that you're bringing up for sure
Yeah, I certainly think they're like
You know anytime somebody asks something around
A particular currency like well, why haven't you done this? Why haven't you done that?
Um, I try to do two things one is I try to listen
First to heart
As much as I don't want to
Because I'm old and and crotchety
And I know better, but I actually
You're sorry, um, uh, well, I like to feel that like I know better
Um, uh, but I also look I try to ask the same questions of more popular currencies like the dollar, right like
What did they try to do with the dollar was going viral?
Um, you know, if we go back to currencies earlier than that, right? Um, there's a there's this old book
Uh called debt the first 5000 years
It's written by an economist and it's bad. It's a it's a boring book. I don't recommend it read
I I got passed that got like two-thirds
Into debt the first 5000 years this this very boring book. Um, but it talks about how
Um
Many moons ago
Some of the earliest coinage stories
Um detailed a scenario where a king
Um had a big old army and he turned up and uh, he said hey everybody. I'm the new
Dude in town with the big old army
And we're gonna protect all of you
Mostly from us
But I tell you what, um, I I kind of need to you know, feel all these
These soldiers. So I tell you what um part of the deal with my uh, you know protection
Is uh, is that you're gonna have to you're gonna have to pay these things. We're gonna call in taxes
And the only way you can pay taxes
Is with these tiny little pieces of metal with my face on them
And uh, if you don't know how to get them, I mean, I guess that's on you
But I will tell you that I'm giving one of them
To every soldier and my army every month
So if you want to get one
Um, I guess you should probably feed clothes and you know look after them, right?
And this was sort of the the means
Uh by which to you know pressure the local population and becoming a fiefdom and ultimately a nation presumably
Um, I don't know if that's the vibe that we want to take with Manero per se
But it does say something about, um, I I think
View
We can try to sort of woo people into Manero
Um, and that's possibly one one way to do it
You know, we've been working on a new dance move recently. We can give I'll I'll bring it along to the conference
Make catch on right
um
But um, but it also occurs that like
Were the Manero community to come up with
If not products goods and services
Right or oil or rice or something
That is real world assets, which um, I believe daylight was talking about earlier
Um, which was my personal approach, right? I think I think hard economics is the appropriate path for this particular thing
Um
Um, then perhaps by other means right and I'm I'm thinking in particular
What are the features and functions that?
You know people appear to want but no traditional organization
Um has been doing a good job or every time they
Do a good job, you know, they sell out to
The businesses and then they sell out the businesses to their shareholders
And across is uh, what corey doctoro would call in-suitification
uh, I'm talking in particular of
companies like facebook and
More recently x and so on where they provide this wonderful service up front
And then over time it dilutes
Uh, the way it dilutes is they stop showing you the things that you came there for and instead
So you add and then at some point
Um, they have enough ads that they start, you know making the ads more expensive
And service of their shareholders and so on and so forth like it's there's there's a conflict of incentives here
um, that uh seems to reliably correlate to the degree of concentration of power
and in particular the um
The failure to delineate the first party discovery experience
From a third party curation experience, right?
um, I don't know about you but the last time I I searched google for
um, I think it was t-shirt
I had to scroll for 27 screens on my phone
Before I got something that wasn't an ad and I believe it was the wikipedia page for t-shirt technology
Um, and I don't I don't remember that was the the google that I grew up with. Um, why do I bring that up?
uh
Because I wonder whether
There are other features and functions which do not require
um, personally identifiable information to be input into a system
But that would be materially valuable
To an individual particularly an individual who wanted to say uh anonymous or private
uh presumably um
That if the only way to get this thing was to get manara to pay for it
uh
Right like
I mean, it does feel a little
Corporationaly does feel like a little part of the part of the beauty of manara to be is that it's so simple
You know, I think I think complexity kills and try to over complicate stuff and
all of a sudden you're
you know, we're in a uniform or something but um
It I feel as though there are a number of
technical challenges
uh, and not not not just technical challenges like economic challenges and cultural challenges
uh in in recent years
That anybody could say but step up to the plate to um, but
You know to the extent that there was an organization that was able to solve them structurally by protocol
As opposed to on the application layer with a powerful proprietary platform
Um, then I I imagined that that protocol would um
Be well received by perhaps it perhaps even virally received. You know sam
I do I do some some good thoughts there
Ruben, let me ask you man. You said you you've been in batik. You said you were in bitcoin since 2009
That's that's pretty pretty one. That's the case
Um, what so what's kind of your overall thing?
You said like manero is one of your favorite about your favorite because of the the cypher punk vibes
Um, but overall kind of what's your crypto to like your your manero take right you've been here from the beginning
Um, manero, we're seeing it getting delisted from exchanges. I imagine you expected that to happen
But give us give us your waiting waiting for it. Absolutely. I predicted that give us your wisdom man
Give us your wisdom. You've been around for a long time
You have perspective that none of us here have I mean maybe some get close, but 2009
Is this is pretty fucking early man. So give give us your perspective
Your full full full global view if I was an astronomer, so I would have hodled
Uh, but I have been around for a while. I'd say what um, I've seen a lot of cycles
I saw the the first cycle which was you know number go up. I saw mount gox
Um, I was you know mount gox was handling 40 of all crypto transactions
Uh, which at the time was just one change with bitcoin
Uh, I was I was around for the mount gox collapse. I was I was cheering that because that's when I was really kind of get really
You know falling in love with bitcoin at the time and cheering on cheap
Potentially cheap bitcoin. Uh, uh history repeats, doesn't it? Um, well, I mean it rhymes
um
Yeah, and and so I think I think sovereign
sovereign ownership
Um, is a is a is a theme here
um, and it's really
The power of digital technology
The the power of electrons as opposed to the power of molecules
Um, is that you can do
A lot through automation that you can't very very quickly that you that would take a a lot of humans and a lot of labor
to be able to achieve otherwise
And it's it's given rise to business models that
um in particular have a theme of
Instead of doing one really hard thing
They make it easier for other people to do things and they just they just take a little bit of the pie
Do a lot of things and they just have a very small part of the thing, right?
and and
Overall in the macro it tends to lead to rent seeking type behavior
um and
You know, we have a lot to be thankful for in terms of communication technologies
And applications like voice over IP
Or derivatives they were out of like like x which allows us to speak to all sorts of interesting people on the other side of the world at any given moment
Um, but the strings that come along with that
um
To the extent that they are held by specific
persons with specific stakeholders
whose uh interests may not align
With all stakeholders as much as they do shareholders, right?
um
That that can create tensions and conflict which I truly believe
um
Sovereignty is the only rule solved for right?
um a good example of that that of something that's happening right now is in the world of
LLMs and AI
Where the only ones who have enough compute
Um enough money and to pay for the energy bills
Are a very small subset of companies
And so did we have this really powerful technology coming down the pipeline that
It really isn't
I mean beyond llama like there isn't there isn't a lot of strong open source alternatives for
Um, which creates a degree of asymmetry in this ecosystem. You have some rates natural sort of disparity
Um in the broader ecosystem, right?
And so I don't know how long it's going to take before we have
sovereign LLMs or sovereign AI
I certainly would like it to be able to do a google search without the ads
Right the the final head blocker
um
But the theme here I guess is to wrap it all up together and tie it together
Um is sovereignty, right?
um
What a lot of people don't understand about sovereignty certainly in the early days is that
with
Sovereign power comes out for the responsibility, right? Um, it's you know
Yes, yes, it's not your keys. It's not your wallet
But also, you know, actually your keys and you lose your key
There's no customer service fam like there's like that's that's you know comes with the
Comes the territory. So, um, I think that we're
You know to the extent that
There's that old phrase which is the future is already here
But it's just not even I'm not even redistributed
I think that's true of old technologies, but I think in particular with um data sovereignty
when um monetary subsidy sovereignty
um
Private interact private private transactions so on and so forth. Um
They're not
Sexy, but I don't really think they need to be
To matter there's a lot that matters that isn't sexy, right taxes aren't sexy
Rent isn't sexy
Bricks and and
Oil isn't sexy, but you can be damn sure that people, you know
Seek them, right?
And so I think you know
I'm I don't say this to suggest that we shouldn't
Try any particular novel approach
Um, I certainly think we should and in fact the more the better
um
To the extent
That we do
Uh, I I hope that it doesn't dilute
The core ethos, um, and I have confidence
in the manara community who have been
10 foil hat levels of solid like prepper levels of solid
For the last what two decades now
uh, just about
uh
That you know if anybody's gonna sort of you know stick the grind whether it's this generation of the next man
Honestly, like I I I am surprised to see
The wallet count the aggregate wallet count across all chains to be in the hundreds of millions. I would have thought
maybe millions
But within it within the first 10 years
Um, but it's it's you know tour does magnitude above that
So, you know if it doesn't get to eight billion, you know by next quarter
That is eight pillar end humans on you know
on a
One or multiple chains. That's fine. Um, good things take time, but uh, I would say, uh
I would encourage folks to zoom out
um
and um
You know focus on what matters and if you really want to get excited
If you sell things raise the prices 10%
And then give people a 10% discount if they buy them in there
I
Love it, man. I love it. Thank you Ruben. Uh, thanks for popping in any chance. We see you down at minaretopia
Yes, non-zero
All right
Fantastic fantastic
I think well if you haven't gotten your ticket already make sure you use code blad24 for a discount. Yes
Yes, please use blad 24
That that also that will help help blad pay his bills
As well. So, please please do consider using blad 24 as your promo code
When you purchase your minaretopia ticket whether in person or virtue buying it at minaret
A virtual conference ticket as well much rather people tend to person
But we did add that as well for people that want to participate virtually. I'm sorry Ruben go ahead
This is a buying at a minaret right like you guys except solana kidding. I'm kidding
Uh
Minero obviously preferred we accept minaret
We do accept there are ways to pay with other cryptos and then it gets
Instantly swapped into minaret and sent that along to us. We accept minaret only minaret only
Which currency are you least proud to accept?
Uh, whatever the instant exchanger is excited. I don't even know man. I'm sure there's some major shit coins out there
Some major shit coins
But you could pay natively with minaret using the minaret gateway that we have built into
Our e-commerce website minaretopia.com and then we use
Uh, I believe now payments is our the instant exchanger that we're using where you could use any other crypto
You possibly couldn't thank us to buy your ticket and just get swapped into minaret
Um blad any anything else you want to you want to say as we close out?
No, not really I've been planning so while you're talking I did some planning on a calendar as in which article
I want to work on for which day and I estimate that by friday the first of
November I will be done working on this and maybe I'll have
A demo or something to show to people to get them excited about the project
And I'll also send you a file that you can print so that it can be ready on time for you
Minerotopia
Yeah, I was also looking at the peter todd meme coin because I bought like 10 dollars of it during this
Conversation and I'm getting wrecked right now because people estimated that
Or predicted that peter todd was gonna be named satoshi during the documentary and people started trading
And then it's just funny. I put 10 dollars on it and I seem to have one see the one name
You know peter todd was that minarotopia last year? I don't know if you're aware of that
Wasn't that two years ago if I'm not mistaken because after he came to minarotopia she
proposed the tail emission proposal
on bitcoin
Yeah, it was uh, it was last year that he was there, but it was in the spring
So it was like a year and a half ago that he was at minarotopia. Yeah
Uh, but was he the one named as satoshi in that documentary? Are you serious?
That's that's the reveal that it was peter todd. Is that what they're saying? That's that's kind of that's kind of
Yeah, there's a clip that got leaked according to which
He was asked point blank if he made up that whole story with the fed who told him to do rbf
and this
Plain that he satoshi is based on a reply that he posted back in 2010
And he replied to satoshi something about rbf
And he didn't get involved until a couple of years later with his real name account
So it's almost as if he disappeared for a couple of years that you didn't talk from the forums and then came back
and
I guess speaking to how finny and adam back about solving the double spending problem when you're 14
can add up to this credibility, but
I don't know. I've met peter. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy
He was he definitely likes minaro, man. He's actually the first person I heard talking about minaro in like
2014 I heard him on a podcast minaro was like less than a dollar at the time and he was talking about how it
You know, basically solved bitcoins fundability problems
And he got me very excited about minaro very early
So much respect to peter todd and who knows man. Maybe he could be satoshi. He was definitely there from the super super early days
Uh, you know, he was among amongst satoshi at the time
Um, and he's you know, obviously, you know, he he kind of he's the ultimate skeptic
Which I also actually really liked that about him. He's always skeptical like super pessimistic and skeptical about everything
um, so yeah, you know, he kind of
Throws throw shade on minaro, but he also there's a lot of things he says that are very minaro related
Like you said the talent he's looking, you know, he's proposed to
Uh add a tail admission to bitcoin. Obviously minaro has a tail admission. He's obviously very concerned about
you know, the privacy of bitcoin and minaro has
Allegedly solved uh, bitcoins privacy problems
um
But yeah, he's he's I don't know. I think he's I think he's a cool dude. A lot of people give him a lot of
A lot of I don't know
They think he's like a fed or something. I don't know what they think
I hear a lot of conspiracies with with peter todd
I doubt I don't think he's satoshi if I had a guess
But he was definitely there from the fucking early days. So who knows who knows I don't know ruben
What's your take man? You're 2009. You're probably am I am I the only one?
Am I the only one here who is curious?
Why the alleged satoshi doesn't just use their keys to make a transaction of literally any kind?
Yeah, I mean that's always right the easiest way to prove who satoshi is but I guess I guess
Peter doesn't want like like he doesn't okay
Who knows man, but would you discount peter todd as potentially being satoshi? I wouldn't I would just got anybody
Who says that they are for a start and if somebody else claimed that they were
Yes, yes the answer is yes, I would I would dispute anybody
Look the only way that I will say this person might be satoshi
Is if they use the private keys and even then even then I'm inclined to think that somebody found a hack
That seems more likely
Silence silence for a decade and then suddenly
Come on man
I don't know man if you're satoshi and you're you're smart enough to pull
I don't know. I think people I think I think the the real satoshi would have the ability to
To to not spend not spend the doc
Why would you ruin? Why would you ruin like the best the best legacy play like like like
Ah show me a founder of a thing
That will have quite the legacy as the anonymous founder of new money
Yeah, no, it's somebody it's one of the greatest
It's the it's the ultimate play
Yeah, yeah
Um, but shit. I don't know. I don't know. I just I do know I do know that peter was the first one to talk about
Manera one of the first people to kind of talk about manara publicly and that's how I heard about it
Uh, I mean if we find satoshi, I'll be disappointed
Yeah
Yeah, I would read this so I mean because you know, it's he's a mythical character at this point, obviously
Um, all right guys, I think this is this is a good place to close it out
Uh, thank you everybody for joining us. Super excited about manaritopia
Thanks for helping me promote it today. Please. Please spread the word manaritopia dot com
We got a we got a decent decent crowd coming down amazing amazing amount of projects and speakers participating and sponsors
And now I just want to kind of give it a final push. Let's make it
Bigger and better than ever. It's four days instead of three
Like I said, we have the marketplace built into the conference. So bring your manara
For spending for living off of you could you know, live off of it down there for the four days
We're there you can buy your christmas gifts to bring back home
The theme is if we use it, we win guys. Uh, that's what manaritopia is all about. That's what we're promoting
Um, rafael man rafael will be down there and he could he could pitch his uh, let's let's make the
The dopamine manero app. Uh, we're all for it, you know, uh, but yeah, I'm focusing on
opting out
Uh, using manero as a digital cash tool. That's what I'm most passionate about that. That's that's what I'll try
I'm trying to memify. Yeah, maybe it's not that sexy, but I really don't give a fuck
I'm here to disrupt and break up over here
What's that?
So I'm sort of bricked up over here
It certainly gives me a dopamine rush, man
Anytime I use manero and I know nobody can fucking see what I'm doing with my money
Anytime I see a new listing on xmr bizarre
It seriously gives me, you know, the greatest feeling in the world. Uh much much better feeling than any
than any, uh time I've scrolled on instagram or
Played or played around with any other tech and I'm being serious about that
Dopamine coming from knowing how freaking disruptive it is
And can I just say something that you can economic observation for manero given us where it's at in this current year
Um by delisting by delisting manero from the largest exchange
Not only have they
Reduced its relative harm on a market right or reduce the relative on ramps and off ramps
For exposure to predict the people who are
From these crazy crypto scam they've insulated it
They've insulated manero so that it is more of a cryptocurrency. They've protected it. Yes
And so the market value on manero is is actually in my personal opinion
um
More of a real market than it is this diluted
Mishmash of every other person who's diversifying into an asset class because they can't diversify into this asset class
Without actually taking skin of the game and doing so
Because the on ramp off ramp friction
Um, which is to say if I were trading everything else I would be looking to manero for signal
Does that make any sense it makes sense to me, man, and anybody who's smart enough to hear what rubin saying he's been
There's been coins in 2009. So maybe maybe he's uh,
Maybe he knows the thing or two, but yeah, no, it don't totally make sense
I mean, they're forcing people to use
Manero in the most idealistic way possible and to get into it in the most idealistic way where
They're anonymously purchasing it with other cryptos or with cash
Uh, it's like thank you. Thank you for steering everybody in the right direction. And thank you for forcing us
To do what we eventually want to achieve which is to opt out and live peer to peer
And they're just forcing us to do it sooner. They're forcing us to to build the tools we need
Shout out to ginslet. Yeah. Thank you, sir
Um, all right guys, I'm gonna kill it right here. We'll we'll be doing a manero
Topia this week saturday at 11 a.m. Anybody wants to join us then
Please please get the word out on manerotopia.com. Buy your tickets today use vlad 24, right?
I think that's that's the promo code vlad 24
To buy your tickets. Oh and yeah email me at manerotopia at protomail.com if you want to participate in any way
We collaborate with anybody as long as you you know, you're you're into it for the right reasons
We'll get you involved
Uh, no matter who you are manerotopia at proton mail.com. Thank you guys. Ciao
Hi maneroland, thank you for joining us on this week's episode
We release new episodes every week
You can find and subscribe to our show on youtube odyssey itunes spotify or wherever you listen to podcast
Go to manerotalk.live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen
If you want to interact with us guests or other podcast listeners
You can follow us on twitter mastodon or any of our social media platforms
Manerotalk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you and supporting us as easier than ever
By typing in manerotalk.crypto in your manerot.com or cake wall at send address field to send us a tip
Once again, thanks so much for listening and we look forward to being back next week