You're paying there when you go and fill up your tank is the israel premium
You're paying the israel premium there. You're paying for this war
Uh directly
Welcome to the last american vagabond. I have robert in lekes joining me to discuss
Pretty much just what's going on with the iran war the legalities from the united states perspective and the world
And one particular document released on the second by the white house
that goes through the history of
Particularly in particular iranian they claim attacks on americans or really just the terrorist attacks of iran on
Americans around the world and i thought it was important to go through this
Like you know detailed oriented and discuss whether this was true
Whether there's nuance to the conversation and of course whether this is being used dishonestly to try to drive support for
In illegal war. So robert, how are you today? It's always a pleasure to have you in the show
It's been a while since we've had you know talked and you've been writing a lot
You know articles for t-lab, but we we haven't done the usual interviews
We have in the past so it's good to have you on because we got to get back to it because as you know
I mean for those listening as well if you haven't watched watch this work
robert has some insight in these conversations that i feel most people just either are afraid to point out or
Just don't have in general. So how are you today brother?
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me back and uh, yeah, it's good to be in conversation
Rather than just the articles
Yeah, yeah, looks like we got a little bit of a
Feed issue there. So just compare that in mind for the time difference simply a little delay on a on the on the video there
Um, so basically the point today in general was you know to get into the the the specifics the specifics of
Whether or not the claims they're making are actually true. But in general, let's just start out with you know
You know, I what points jump out at you right in regard to the iran war in this part of it
I guess you know
Where is there anything that jumps out at you that you think is important to discuss before we get into that?
That that people may want to hear that you've been following, you know
Because there's so many angles to this the illegality of the war the the you know, whether or not the appropriate measures were used
I mean declaration of war war powers act whether or not there was an eminent threat
Whether or not this is justified based on previous actions, you know
So is there anything else that jumps into your mind that you want to start with before we get into that?
Well, I think the international order as we've known it for some time
Or at least the image that was presented to us has completely collapsed
in on itself
Not only because of the genocide in Gaza for two years and the inability of the so-called international community the united nations and
all of the legal
bodies
That are supposed to safeguard the world from genocide and these sorts of horrific war crimes that we saw
were of course
Not capable of stopping what we saw in Gaza, but then as well with the trump administration
advancing its
so-called border peace through
its UN Security Council resolution in
November, I believe of last year
that passed
through the Security Council
and this
so-called board of peace was an attempt to
replace the United Nations altogether
As well as a nation building extra for size in the Gaza Strip
so
That being said and then combining that with the fact that the us-israeli attack on Iran was clearly a violation of the UN Charter
And yet the UN
secretary general
Was not even capable of calling it out for what it was
And I think there's a lot of parallels in terms of the illegality of this attack
when it comes to the illegal invasion of Iraq, but
What we've seen is that the United States didn't even bother trying to go to the UN Security Council for a resolution this time like they did
For the Iraq war they tried to get
Authorization and they did get a resolution passed against Iraq
They didn't try this this time. They didn't even care. They've just swept aside the United Nations and international law. So I think the whole
argument and the framing
International law I think has become irrelevant in many ways. We just look at the battlefield and we've
Now entered the era of the lore of the jungle
So I think that's important to note as we're looking at everything that's going on and the us has made a terrible mistake for itself
This is a war for Israel very very clearly
And there's nothing that the United States gains at all. I mean it
degrades
It's power projection
The power projection of the u.s. Military
It degrades it in terms of its soft power
It degrades it in terms of it not only its gulf relations, but its international relations as a whole
Um, and and ultimately the United States military is sort of getting embarrassed right now
By a country that everybody was saying was a regime that's on its last legs and is about to collapse and its people hate it and
You know, it's so
Incapable of doing anything
Against the great power of the united states and yet it's taking on the us and the israelis and throwing punches in every single direction
And willing to take on anyone else who wants to join in on that coalition
And it's holding its own and as I've as you've often pointed out over the years
That if it were to come to this point that this is what we would be now
Not necessarily over the years that you knew that they would be able to succeed in fighting it off
But that this would be the outcome that it wouldn't be some over and done thing and a lot of other people who are not
Partisan or you know blinded by the expertise of the state department's perspective of iran
Right that they just understand the reality that this is clear
I think you know and I mean I really appreciate your work over the years for that very reason because it
Opens your eyes to a different perspective because what else do we have to look to because it's also not
I don't think why is to trust what the iranian government says about itself, right?
It's about understanding the the middle ground and i'll point out by the way what you said there
Which is a very important for people to hear from that you meant, you know
I believe you're talking about the government and the military which is what you highlighted
Hurting itself, but as most americans may take that as one thing like americans don't benefit from this, right?
This is not america first, but as he's highlighting the u.s. Government doesn't benefit from this
So you can argue a world you can see a world in which the government might take action that it benefits from
At our expense. Oh, I what I really won't be able to hear in that is that they're taking action at its expense
And our expense for a foreign power
I don't I don't know how and I mean I don't even need to say that next part seeing
Is how it seems the main conversation and even the mainstream level is starting to
Grapple with whether is real controls us policy kind of crazy that we're here just on a side note
You know that that's actually being discussed for how long this has been
Broken down with backs, you know any thoughts on that?
No, I completely agree with you
To have these sort of conversations that we're having right now
Uh, you know, we were, you know labeled as uh, you know
conspiracy theorists and crazy people for discussing all of these ideas
But now this is the mainstream discourse because everybody's been exposed to it. Uh, and that's one, um
I wouldn't say amazing thing
Um, trying to search for the word here, but I find amazing and baffled that it happened
Even though the facts
I would say that the fact that this all came from Gaza and the suffering of Gaza this tiny little strip of land
Right with a population just over two million that
It was Gaza that collapsed
This entire deck of cards and exposed the whole system
I think that is
something that
Should be noted in the history books and and and everyone should
Recognize that that the struggle of the people of Gaza their steadfastness
Enduring the genocide that they have
Uh has opened everyone's eyes if it wasn't for Gaza
We wouldn't be here in terms of the way that people are now viewing the world and everyone is now looking at
Uh, the israeli is looking at the u.s. Government for what they are
And and they're calling them out and and this is happening on a scale that we quite frankly could not have predicted and people are saying things
quite frankly that surprised me that shocked me people who are
Let's say accepted in the mainstream
Discourse in in the corporate media now even some people are coming out and saying things even the conversations that
We're having now have dramatically shifted
And that is because of Gaza and the sacrifice of Gaza and the steadfastness of its people
Uh, so I would say that it all originates from that tiny little strip of land
and that population there of just over two million
have changed the the
entire planet's perception
on global politics on the way their governments function
And open people's eyes and I do think it's uh
It's it's a major shift. It's a an insane shift
And and now the fact that there's a lot more people open to
Listening to the conversations like we're having now
Yeah, exactly. Then you know the Palestinian people right the the the suffering and the strife and the you know the decades
You know, I mean if you can go beyond even just the israel
But you know the long-term suffering and the strife of fighting this and having the arguments always be
You know like like even even recently there aren't just you know
Somehow to capitulate as opposed to stand up for what's yours, you know to just get out of the way instead of stand in your land
Well, they're you know while they're bombing you it's like why don't you just flee to egypt because this is our land
You know like and the fact that that's been going on for so much longer than post october 7th
You're right and I hope that that really does end up being not just a a footnote
But the story that the palestinians and what they put themselves through are why we're here
You know and and there's other parts to be pointed to but that is it's a powerful point and and to show the determination
you know the steadfast like the
Choice to fight that in the midst of an insurmountable force
You know, I think that's kind of a good point of where the world is at right now
You know and it's even though it can feel that way and even maybe it's still important to stand up and fight back
And before we move on to the the document. I wanted to point one more thing out
You mentioned about the un I made this point just the other day that I might have been yesterday
It's so obvious this and this actually good point before we frame the kind of long term lie about what iran is and that's not to say
Good guy bad guy
It's just a highlight that they've been misrepresented for what they've been doing and that ultimately iran has consistently gone to the un
In multiple examples including I believe it was february of of of this year saying if they bomb
We will bomb these locations. It's on it. It's a un document. It's it's on the record
I'm sure you've seen it and so the point is one that means that they clearly knew that they would bomb these locations
They're now trying to claim or the rational response even though it's a legal response to their attack
But also that it shows you they weren't planning attack because clearly they're going look if you attack us
We're going to respond which clearly is not what you would do if you're planning a surprise attack
You know, but the point is they went to the un is that what a terrorist organization does
Went to as you pointed out to the us or israel go to the un before they know
You just it's only so what you can truly ignore, you know, it's just it's it's incredible and that larger point
I'm so glad people are starting to see this
So I have a post that I saw actually I originally saw sacri fosters share this
Here's what he was sharing and he did a little side-by-side breakdown of the comparison and you'll see why that's relevant
The second it's like basically an identical document to what was originally posted in june 19th 2025 by the
foundation
For demands excuse me for defense of democracies which as they highlight both is essentially a cutout of israeli intelligence
You can decide for yourself
I happen to agree with the
Overwhelming influence on most of these think tanks this one in particular
And so what steven here says the most definitive white house statement purporting to justify the us
Israel us war on ron which was from march 2nd 2026 statement entitled the iran's regime decades of terrorism against american citizens
Here's the document from the white house
He says a after a brief editorial opening the article list 44 incidents with a total of 992 us deaths
Which we should address that in general before we get into this about the comparison to like
Like beastings in a year
You know me like the amount we're talking about also the fact that everyone these people now
Casually said thousands of americans seeing and what that's you know
We'll just talk about that before we get going the source of the data wasn't given where did it come from?
He points out that it's this document now
Let's what and it's actually prepared by a former apac member
Which all that may mean nothing to you the point for me
And I think it does matter is whether these things are accurate right so before we get into the document and going down the list
They have it's an interesting point
Right the the the information about what we've been hearing and how often we hear from all of them thousands
Trump even casually said maybe even millions in a press conference just the other day
Thousands of americans so before we get into that can get can you break down for
People listening what that number comes from like the general sentiment of where those thousands were supposedly killed in the bulk they reference in the
You know iraq conversation
Well first of all to address the foundation for defensive democracies
They along with the washington institute for neary's policy
Which are both ultra zionist think tanks and if you look on the quincy institute for responsible statecraft they have
um a project that tracks the transparency
Of the think tanks in washington dc and both of them rank
The lowest of the low because they take dark money
And it's recognized that they are essentially cutouts connected to the apac lobby
And they were the cheerleaders for the iraq war
So again yet again
Going into another regime change war another forever war
You know continuing the
war on terror
As it was called
We're seeing that the white house again is citing these exact same think tanks
As its justification and their data and so to go through them
I mean we could pull them up and and go through each and every single one of them
But in essence what they're arguing is all of iran's allies and and groups that are roughly connected to them and every single death since
1979
Is somehow the responsibility of the iranian government?
Of you know us deaths
um
And just not
You know caring to add any context into anything at all
And blaming them from for everything from you know roadside bombs in iraq to hamas
Um attacks in occupied palestine to hezbollah and a variety of other
attacks
It's it's not really ridiculous and you'll hear by the way
It's
Importantly pointed out just like what 996 they're saying and
point to them for the events of tomorrow
So, you know, you'll hear that talking point that these you know
Israel first pro-trump people are putting thousands of americans and what they've done there is
They're lazy and they've just said well every single roadside bomb and every single u.s
Soldier that was killed in iraq during the iraq war was iran's fault
Which is ridiculous the face of it
And that's that's kind of what I was getting at in that opening
So we'll go through in a second is it not every single one because a lot of them kind of can be grouped together
But the general kind of a long list of what they're claiming
But what what the the bulk as far as I understand and correct me if i'm wrong
As you just highlighted comes from
Like the the illegal invasion of iraq and specifically the the being like thought off by the iran elements
Which are some elements of just like we can get into like the pmu and and what that really is whether proxy
Ally whatever but then specifically iran elements that were there with salamani and fighting off that illegal invasion
And so for anyone to frame
Which I mean is anybody out there listening actually of the mind that that wasn't an illegal invasion
Do we pretend there were weapons of mass destruction?
Like it's obvious we know that was illegal and yet at the same time people could acknowledge that somehow
Still want to make the case that them fighting off that illegal invasion was now a terrorist act
And I think that's what it largely stems to stems back to and then we can get into like the you know
Three killed here from a hamas whatever
But would you agree that that's the bulk of it and then the the roadside bombing point too
Is that like the general sentiment?
It's it like from what I've seen on that list
It's just oh like groups that iran either has a relationship with or some of the cases don't have a relationship
never had a relationship with
Or possibly could have been involved in funding or or open allies with and as part of its
access of resistances is called
everything that was ever done by any of those groups was
Automatically iran's fault and as if it was ordered by iran
Uh, I mean, it's just ridiculous. We can get into the list and we can go through everything and and I can address every single point
They're gonna bring up, you know
so the point the the
What I was just trying to get at is the interesting point that it's something that they continue to cycle through
Even though it's more scattered than what they're really trying to suggest as you're highlighting and then back to the the um
Post about 992 really just what he framed it as and we'll get into the actual list itself
You know, it's important to think about that that it's it may seem a small thing to some people
You know that you can casually just refer to thousands of americans
But one thing it shows you is that they're being fast and loose with the number of people that they claim is sacred to defend
You know that we have to honor their sacrifice
But then you kind of just blithely just you know thousands even though that's not the reality based on the numbers they provide
That's 992 so you don't even reach a thousand and then and that's not to diminish the fact that they were killed
And we can get into the reality of what they thought they were fighting for
But then you can compare it to just about anything like very benign things that take place in the country or over the
Let's take the same time frame from 79 forward
And the amount of things that you know like like I've jokingly said beastings wildly outnumber what they're pointing to
So it just it's it's it's meant to make you feel like we're under attack and these people are targeting you
But by any sure any metric it in fact shows the opposite. I just think that's really important to think about
So let's go through their list
For nearly a half century the islamic republic of iran the world's okay
Let's just start with that because I just
It's amazing to me that with even what they show you they can still make this argument the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism
So do you find that to be an accurate framing and if not why?
I mean it's it's ridiculous like
They're
the leading state sponsor of terrorism. I mean did they
fund
al-Qaeda and all of the splinter groups across the region and in
Africa and across the world, you know, like a dash isis. Did they find that these are the most well known
Right. Well, just in case people don't know the answers. No unequivocally. So that's what he was getting at
They are not and we'll get into that part in a second as well the ideological overlap the
You know the isis point
I think is the most insulting even as we can see isis attack around when israel starts criticizing them
But then somehow and they're the group we're told is the leading group the big terrorism
But then they fight each other, but they're still the state leading sponsor. It just it's it's it doesn't make any sense
You know, I recently saw rubio and others try to kind of or eggs out as well
Try to kind of broaden this out to well, they're a state sponsor of terrorism
Why well the leading because they take the money they make from their oil resources that by the way the u.s
Has been sanctioning to then build tunnels and weapons and like what do you think about that claim that first of all that
They are using the resources that are being suppressed by the u.s
Government to build what other countries seem to use but the why that would make them the state sponsored terrorism
Like just I don't know it just seems like it's on its face ridiculous
But i'm trying to engage with it like it makes like it's a real argument. So we're not just dismissing it
But you know, what do you think
Well, who does iran back iran backs? Hasbollah
In lebanon it backs the palace all of the palestinian resistance groups whether they're islamic groups marxist groups
nationalist groups they back them all they all they provide them all with
Funding logistical support, etc. And they also back on sarullah in yemen and they back
the hashid ashabi or the pmu
In iraq
These are all legitimate allies that have their own grievances within their own borders or either
In yemen's case in sanah. They have a government that this is the government of yemen
two-thirds of the military
Are were decided with them immediately when they took over in 2015. So that that's a government there
It's not internationally recognized, but the so-called internationally recognized government in yemen is a bunch of saudi
Stooges that literally put together a new government in exile out of the ritz carlton hotel in
In in saudi arabia and have no legitimacy whatsoever. They're a bunch of gangsters
They've allied themselves historically with forces fought on the side of al qaeda and daesh isis inside of
Yemen, so let's let's look at that. Oh, well iran
Has backed hezbollah. Well, hezbollah is an organic resistance movement which grew out of lebanon after the israeli invasion in
1982 when israel killed around
20,000 lebanese and palestinians and then when the palestinian resistance by the way were pushed out
They agreed to leave lebanon israel then used its fascist militia allies which were proxies
And they're these were hardened killers to massacre thousands and thousands of palestinian refugees
In refugee camps when they didn't have anyone to protect them
And they also killed the shia in south lebanon as well and israel then occupied south lebanon
And by the way that when we're talking about the shia in south lebanon
Prior to this during the era in the 70s and and before the israeli invasion the shia were not actually
Always hostile to the israelis per se
This is the poorest population inside of lebanon
And it's also a population that they for a long time
And this is goes into the history of lebanon now that population a lot of them historically didn't really like that
The pilo was inside of lebanon they viewed it as a state within a state
And and they had some grievances against them. And so they weren't actually
They definitely weren't combative
Towards the israelis at that point, but then the israelis occupied them the israelis murdered them
The israelis brutalized them they destroyed their homes
They took their their fathers and their sons as political prisoners and they tortured them
And so then you had hezbollah which formed out of the occupation of south lebanon and out of the invasion
and the mass murder of tens of thousands of people and yes, uh
Iran did back them the irgc did back them and they have an affinity towards them because they're of the same religious group
But hezbollah are an organic resistance movement inside of lebanon. They're the biggest political party inside of lebanon
They have social movements and a political wing and also a military wing
And they're the only people capable of defending the country quite frankly. The lebanese army is is a glorified security force
This all being said that's who iran backs and that's why they back them
Because even for iran strategically when it's backing all of these allies
And that's just looking at hezbollah alone when it's backing these allies to fight against occupation and to expel
And and it's arming them and and it's providing them with support
It's doing that for a variety of reasons. You can say it's ideological. You can say it's a moral reason
You can make those arguments
But even if you're just looking at it from an iranian defense point of view
Since nine uh since 1979 the iranian government has been under sanctions
It has been constantly threatened by the united states
And so it needs to develop these allies as a protective shield for itself in the region
That's just the reality
They have military bases surrounding them and they have threats coming from every single direction
They've been placed under sanctions for their entire existence of this government
And then not even two years into the new government after the people of iran
Overfrewed their dictator at the shah
It was a us installed puppet installed by the cia
Not even two years into that government. They couldn't even settle down
Then the united states backs saddam hassein to launch a war of aggression and invasion
Which lasted for around eight years and killed around 500,000 iranians
that this is
The none nobody gets told this nobody knows this nobody knows about the
Overfrew of the first democrat practically elected leader in 1953 by the mi6 and the cia
Who by the way, it's important to note when we talk about a coup
The way that they did it is they funded and fueled through the cia and mi6
They fueled protests against hamed mozaduk
They fueled these like we saw in uh earlier this year with these riots
And these attacks again that they were doing the same thing now as they did back in 1953
because
The country had a democratically elected leader and he wanted to nationalize the oil
He wanted to take that the oil for himself
And he didn't want to align himself
So they installed this shah the people overflowed the shah and then immediately
Under sanctioned invasion of their country hundreds of thousands of people dead and at the very end
Of the iran iraq war after we've seen this was the last year of the iran iraq war
The united states
navy
Shoot down a civilian airliner and kill over 270 iranian civilians in
In the gulf upon moz right and so they never apologized for that either, right?
And ragan famously says i'll never apologize for the american for for america. I think he said the way he framed it
Yeah, and this is this is the the problem is when you're like, whoa
Iran backs this group and it backs hamas and it backs islamic shahad and it backs the pflp
And the the other groups in palestine. Yeah, they're fighting within the borders of occupied palestine to liberate their country
Hesbullah is fighting to liberate lebanese territory and to protect lebanon
The pmu when it started backing the pmu and helped found them it did it
In response to an isis invasion
Which had taken over large swaths of iraq people don't know this because they have this weird fantasy
depiction of what happened with the defeat of isis in iraq the united states did not defeat isis in iraq the iraqis defeated
Uh the isis occupation. It was a brutal bloody battle and and no one should have any
Uh illusions about it. There were many many bloody
Events which took place and i'm not saying that there weren't bad things that happened during this time
That would be incorrect to say there were horrible things that happened in iraq
During this time, but those the pmu were formed and by the way, they had
christian groups involved sunni groups involved obviously the majority were
shia
But not all of them were uh, you know technically on the iranian payroll and stuff
They were fighting to defend their country
So iran threw its weight behind them and they were the ground force whereas the us came in with the air force later
Um, and obviously did some special forces operation
It's had some ground operations
But the majority of the ground fight against isis was done by the pmu and again just from a defensive point of view for the
Iranians they're looking at this and going well if isis takes over iraq
We're in big trouble and they don't want that so again it makes sense from a defensive
point of view for the iranians to do this
And again, it's it's a force which in iraq protects the country from being taken over by these hostile forces
In yemen, we just went through what happened in yemen again another us backed
dictator in the country and the people in yemen
Underwent an uprising
And they overthrew the government
The regime there the ansarullah, they came in later popularly known in the western power
Me here as the hoothies the hoothie rebels to delegitimize them
But they came in and it they took over sanat
and there was a revolution
before this
And there were massive protests on the streets and people including many
The majority of the armed forces sited with ansarullah when they took over
And again, it was about sovereignty. I'm not here to advocate and say hey everything about ansarullah is perfect
And the people of yemen should choose them as their government. No, that's not for me to decide
That's the people of yemen and all of these other countries. It's up to them
It's their countries they should decide however to simply say well iran backs all these terrorist
groups and regimes and the pmu are part of their
A part of the iraqi security apparatus
Like it's just all of this is just so incredibly ridiculous
And and if you look at each case by case on a case by case basis and you look into it
Every single time you can make sense of it. You don't need to agree with it
But you can make sense of it, but do all the backs has the law on it like
Like I mean, it's just stupid like it's it's it's ridiculous quite frankly
It is and it comes down to the point that it's like you like from the origin point pmu
For example, which again, I made this point like up until not that long ago
The u.s. Government was funding iraq which was then funding the pmu or arming and then acting like that's an
It just doesn't this your point. It's a logical when you look at the actual information
That's not being surface level put out
But the point is from the from and that's not the origin point but from ultimately the point from, you know
Just when they start calling them terrorist forward
You can highlight that the only real argument is that they are back by like aran proxy
Which is why they're terrorists and then any kind of action they're used like when the pmu responds against the u.s
Government for illegal actions in iraq they call it a terrorist act
My point is that there's a lot of things they point to that you can there's no like it like you said with
Hezbollah defending
Domestically, they're not lashing out and trying to overtake countries
They're responding to attacks to on southern lebanon, for example
Which we're seeing with with israel or any number of these points we could make
You know, I think it's so obvious to see the one-sided arguments there
But as you rightly pointed out, this is not about good guy bad guy
We're trying to show the facts the truth and if you
Can understand that they're misrepresenting these groups and maybe you still think they're doing bad things
In fact, I think any power structure could eventually or maybe doing exactly the same thing
But that they are misrepresenting it and what does that mean if they are this evil terrorist organization
Why would they have to lie about what they're doing, you know
And so I want to get into the point about the proxy thing before we go further on the list
And I know we actually do have limited time today. So I want to make sure we get into it
But this is I just I always enjoyed talking with you about this stuff, Robert
And and so real quickly last point on this
It's I think this is kind of cut to the to the cuts of the quick and what we're getting at
Proxies so what you highlighted there you your quick point there
I forget what the group name was but you said israel was basically using their proxy
In that in that discussion, but then we had then you highlighted the allies of hezbollah
You know any number of the group we're talking about that are allied and even gain support and weapons
And and funding from their allies just like the u.s. Government does to other countries in the world
We don't call them proxies, right?
So what's the difference in your mind?
Why would hezbollah not be considered a proxy of iran and then any number of groups we can point to that we could
You know the elements the israel and us are using would be called proxies. What's what's your mind the difference?
Go ahead. Why does someone that
immigrates from
Let's say, Nigeria to the united states called an immigrant
But someone that would
immigrate from the united states to nigeria called an expat
It's like again. This is just it's propagandistic framing
And and it's it's honestly it's uh american exceptionalism to an extent
and and this is
When you want to frame the world in terms of goodies and baddies, which is trumps
Uh trumps rhetoric
In essence, this is
The way that he presents the world in goodies and baddies, right in the most basic
Way of presenting international politics and this is what you do, you know, the the bad guys they're regimes
They're not countries. They're not governments. They're regimes iran can't be viewed as a government that you know
For instance
Lately there was an interview. I forget how long ago with uh professor. Muhammad morandi. He was on
Uh pierce morgan and pierce morgan asked him. Can you condemn your regime?
and it's like
You want someone to just get on there and just condemn a random fact about their government
It's like it's a country people have problems with the policies of their government
The reality is here that as much as i'm opposed to the american government
The canadian government the british government whatever right and i have so many criticisms of them if suddenly
A foreign power was invading and bombing my damn neighborhood and killing children
Right and then talking about all of these stupid excuses
Right as to why it's doing that and pushing propaganda
I'm gonna stand there and go no if they were backing terrorist groups to run through the streets and to burn down
businesses and attack churches
And and just run amok would i be in support of that?
Absolutely not that's not something i would back and this is as somebody who is a you know a dissident
I don't like the policies of these governments. I have so many criticisms like you do but again, would you back your country being
You know plagued with these crazy religious fundamentalists that are given all this money by i don't know russian intelligence or chinese intelligence or whatever
It would be like you wouldn't it's just obvious, but we have to present our enemies
There are chosen enemies as being not human their governments are are uniquely
Evil their systems are evil their religions are evil their culture is evil everything about them is different to us
And they're not they're just not and a lot of people see through this nonsense. They do
unfortunately
Most people don't have the knowledge
specifically about west asia
To be able to elaborate so when they're asked to condemn hezbollah and hamas
And uh on sarah law in yemen as terrorists. They just call them terrorists. Oh, yeah
Yeah, the terrorists or they just called you condemn the iranian regime. Oh, yeah, I hate the iranian regime
It's like can you tell me anything about it? Do you know anything about the way that the government functions?
Do you know about the different political camps? Do you know about the history?
Do you have any idea about you don't but people are pressured into
accepting
the
The framing of the conversation
And that's what they do is they they want to create a certain framing in a box
And if you're outside of that, you're crazy. You're a conspiracy theorist. You're an anti-semite. You're whatever it is
and
This box is just propagandistic nonsense. It's and in and of itself it is inherently racist
crap orientalist crap
Which is there and i'm not using those words a lot of people throw these words racist and orientalist around a lot
Right, like anti-semitism is thrown around a lot. I use them with purpose here because these
This framing specifically is there and that box is there
In order to trick you and dup you into hating people that you would never hate if you met them
And you would never hate their culture if you went over there
And you would probably think it's beautiful if you went and visited iran if you went to
Palestine and and and you were to walk the streets and see the hospitality of the people
And the beauty of the land and what they thought you wouldn't hate the palestinians
You wouldn't hate the iranians. You wouldn't hate the iraqis or anyone else
You wouldn't but you're supposed to view them as this unique evil
And I suppose this is a bit of a rant here, but again, it's just forward manufacturing consent. That's all it is
And you the pierce morgan example, you know and like you're saying and if you don't
Give them that concession right where yes, yes, they're bad. Don't explain why they're not what you think
Well, maybe we maybe not everyone agrees that they're as evil as you're saying and the point is you're not allowed inside that
Inner conversation, you don't get that upper echelon, you know pierce morgan
You know that that's the whole point and and maybe some of them do have that opinion
You know, yes, hamas is terrorist organization
But this is why this is not true about this but it's not accurate and you're right to frame it that way
Because that's just not the truth about the nuance reality of the groups
But you could like you said we we could both point out things that we argue are crimes
Even rightly point out things that happen on october 7th, which should be criticized
But it's not the same thing and I think it's important to see how that kind of you know
Same thing with politicians, you know where you have to kind of give them that to be able to get inside the circle
And so you compromise yourself, you know
Now to the back to the proxy point and one more thing before we get into the list
You know, I think it's really important to see that you highlighted from the iranian perspective
You know like it's a really important point there and we're glad you outlined that
That so from iran, you know, yes, they're protesting. There are real protests
There have been plenty of times that they end up co-opting and it's very clear as the unions even pointed out once it turned into these
Armed mass people that they told you they were arming
But the point is that iranians do want that, you know, as you often point out and do have influence on government action
That has changed because of it
But then when you have actually people come in and start bombing hospitals and schools
They even if it's in the interest of what they claim they want
That's not what they the way they want it or how they want this to go
And so they speak up and criticize it the analogy I make is if republicans are trying to
Let's say they're the insurgent force trying to take over the democrat led government and all of a sudden
Their republican leader starts bombing their republican locations to get that done. Why would they be like? Yeah
You know, it doesn't make sense and that's what it's only in the world from the dehumanized outside perspective
Where that even and that's not what's real on the ground and you can easily prove this, you know
And to back to the proxy point what I was simply saying and I
What you were saying I think is really important
Is that it comes down to whether they're controlled or not?
And I think that's what a proxy means if they're literally like an extension of the government
So the u.s. Government literally manufactures a group of fake people or a fake
Organization that are you know packed with cia for example, that's a proxy
It's not really the organization
Whereas you have organizations that are simply allies of other groups now
It's for everybody out there to decide whether you think that line is crossed or not
But the important thing is to realize that a lot of these groups are in my mind not proxies
But simply allies versus something else and that's really important where we're going to get into next
So on this
One thing is first I think as you already mentioned
Let's not forget and I you'll be surprised. I think at least I'd like to hope how well informed my audience is about operation
Ajax and 53 forward and now what the 79 revolution really was and as you highlighted
We're talking about an illegal revel an illegal coup d'etat
Very well documented at this point mazadek was as you pointed out
I mean, I often point this out when I talk about it
I can't speak to what his mind was but the the discussion of him
Argued that he was very pro-democracy had pictures of himself nefs the liberty bell was all about trying to emulate these different cultures
But I understand he just didn't want to bow to the interests of the foreign powers at the expense of iranians
So they got rid of him and put someone in place that was willing to bow to the elitist oligarch kind of upper
echelon, you know
And so I think whether people agree with that framing or not
It's an illegal coup d'etat that I think went against to what the iranian people want and even grok will tell you that
Dramatically bad for the vast majority of iranians other than that upper circle. So then we come to 1979
So you have the revolution now as you often pointed out
That's doesn't mean it all went in the direction of what even all the iranian people wanted or whether it was more
Kind of an overreaction in a religious sense to what americans brought in right
But ultimately regardless it was the will of the people to push this away and ultimately then went in the direction of more
You know, like you've talked about the hijab point and how a lot of people saw it more of a response to what the west was doing
all that aside
79 forward in the midst of this aftermath
Iranian students and this is from the white house post back to the regime back by the regime
And you can speak to whether you think that's even the case seize the u.s. Embassy in tehran taking 66 american hostages in a
444 day standoff
This is one of the most frequently cited points to why
Iran's a terrorist organization apparently or why they're killing americans or just frothing at the mouth to get it done
So what's your understanding of that basic situation?
Well, the people like this is a the revolution was fresh at this point
And so it was students that did this and there's a fact by the regime and it's like the the government ended up
taking control of the situation and of course
endorsed their actions eventually but
um, this was an organic reaction because the people
Wanted the Shah to be returned back to Iran. They wanted him to be punished for all of his crimes
And he was a bloody and brutal dictator
And this is something that everyone misses. They they shared these stupid black and white photos of oh, look
There were women in bikinis and everything
Besides, do you do you really know what the majority of iranians were living like?
Do you know what it was like that they had literally americans as like settlers in their own gated communities there
Inside of the country next to slums
The population were poor
The population and all women and women's rights. Yeah. Did you know what happened when the islamic revolution came along?
Yeah, women became
Overwhelmingly educated. They finally could have access to an education and higher education and they excelled in every field
you can imagine and by every single metric
they
life or the conditions of life, uh, the quality and the indicators
Of life improved for them. Now you can argue about certain islamic rulings how they're
Implemented many iranians have problems with this
And they have had problems with this and back in 2022
After the messa amini protests, which of course
Foreign forces hijacked them and you had the women life freedom
You know a banner put up which of course was promoted by Saudi Arabia women life freedom
Women's rights and feminism brought to you by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Which just gave the women the right to drive cars, but regardless
Um when it comes to the system there there has been many changes since 2022
And and that reflects the fact that the government does respond to people
It does now that takes a lot of struggle and the iranian people have struggled for those changes
And they've bled for those changes and it's their right to do that
And the and it's their country and they should have that right to say hey
We want this or we don't want this because again, it is their country
Not ours. We have no business telling them what they should do
but back then
With the uh the hostage crisis
They went into that embassy and that's how we found out about 1953 because the students went in they took over that embassy
They were shredding all those documents. They brought them
Uh, right, they took these shredded documents put them together and they found out wow
They found out so many different things because it was the head of the cia operations
um for the region uh, so
So they found out a lot and if you you look at the way that the iranian government dealt with that situation
They released all of the black hostages and they released all of the women hostages
um on humanitarian grounds
Uh because they said the african americans have struggled and been oppressed and women of course like it's humanitarian
We're not gonna go and we're not gonna keep women right and they kept the rest of them and and the us ordered
a a botched
Special forces raid
Which was a catastrophe inside of the country to retrieve them and again
It's like the countries placed under sanctions the united states is harboring the shah
Eventually, where did the shah died the shah died in exile in egypt and then like these cultists these weirdos
Uh that you know a lot of them live in in the west who are iranian and iranian diaspora people
They go over to the the shrine of uh the shah and and you know, I don't know
Say prayers for him or whatever. I guess not prayers because they hate muslims so much and they hate islam
And they deny the reality of their country
Um and their history as well, but the funny thing is the shah was actually a practicing muslim
Right, right. They hate is not so much
It's ridiculously inconsistent and you know, but i'm even to the point of them
Why does it even make sense that these people would go and pray and I guess praise the shah at his altar
It wasn't I mean
Unless you were in this upper elitist inner circle, which would then mean you weren't representative of the iranian people
Then you know, you wouldn't feel that way
So as I my mind is either people who do very much represent that that illegitimate position
Or just doing it because they're being influenced today like marina. Uh, what is it?
Um arena job and you know, all these u.s. State department funded people claiming it was iranian activism
And you could look that up as well. It's documented on their own websites that they get funding from the u.s. Department of State
They don't want to even admit that the revolution was popular
They don't want to admit that and the reality was it was millions and millions of people
It was a process that took years
You know people suffered greatly people were disappeared by the internal security
forces
And tortured to death
Um start the nest. What was it called again?
I'm the
Savak, I think yes. All right. There it is. Yeah
um and and other
As well like of course, there were other ways of
Taking them and and seizing them and killing them and executing them and they followed them
in some cases
Overseas to to murder them. There is people
uh
Uh, there are significant in the history of the iranian revolution and the lead up to it
Uh, like ali shariati, um who
We won't get into right now
But uh, there's a lot of speculation that he was assassinated in the united kingdom
Um, some people say that he died due to health complications
But he was tortured uh by the uh shah's forces
Uh and and later fled but uh, what we should know
Is that there were millions and millions of people and this was a very long drawn out process inside of iran
Which involved all elements of the society who went on general strikes
Who did everything in their power to collapse?
The shah's pro-us pro-israeli regime
and so
When that happened there were forces like for instance the communist forces
and islamic marxist forces
Uh, and you know, many of them were not happy about the direction that the revolution went in
Uh, and there were different groups that splintered off and then you have like these terrorist cults like the mek
Which splintered off and even sided with sedan casane during the iran war
Which currently the iran government broadly supports and is in fact one of the groups that many of the current u.s
Administration wants to be in power when this might change just that's important to think about
And they were designated as terrorist organization until taken off by was it clinton i think but i forget
And i mean this is a deeply unpopular organization like look, there are these psychopaths who are very vocal in the iranian diaspora
Who they're mentally ill. They're just mentally ill people. They they they are not coherent
They have no grasp of the history at all and they are subscribed to cultist ideology
Where they basically worship
Uh, whether it's the mek or or the shah
Uh worship of uh, reza pahlavi now who's just an israeli stooge. I mean this this is i honestly believe this if
Reza pahlavi if his father was around
The shah was around and and he saw the way he was behaving. He would execute his own son
And at that i i'm i honestly think that's what he would do. He'd probably execute him
It's just the reality that that's honestly knowing i know about the history. That's probably what he would do
But this
But just to to finish on this point
These people do not represent the bulk of the iranian public and if you speak to a lot of iranians
And i know many many many iranians inside and outside
You have people who are more on the side of opposing very critical
But sort of see themselves in the middle
Well, they don't like the way the system is they have so many criticisms of it, right?
And they can tell you, you know
They can be talking to you all night about how much they hate this that and the other inside of their country
And that probably is like a very big portion of the iranian population. They're like that very
Just like an united exactly exactly like the united like every other country you can imagine
um
And most countries are like this and then there is a loyal base of supporters
We're talking about a population that is over 92 million people
There is probably around 20 to 30 million. It's estimated who are like loyal, right?
And this is a large part because that government is a religious government
And so it has a religious leadership
And so for them, this is like a
Something that is spiritual, you know, it's like catholics with the pope and the way that they owe allegiance to the pope
It's the same thing what Trump's trying to create in this country
And I think it's an extension of like basically the idea and I think that this again
It comes down to what people's want for their country
And I think that always has to be acknowledged and it's up for them to decide same with americans
Same with same with israelis
But it's worth noting that in any one of them including with iran, which is some of the criticisms
It can be used to manipulate the population
And I think that's what zionism is doing to his population
I think that's what trump is trying to create and the reason I'm saying that is because I I see it as a dishonest use
Now the same
I'm sure people have the same criticism
But what matters to me is whether people who not just iranians
But rather people who practice the same religion believe what they're doing is in line with that religion
I don't believe that's an even remotely close
I mean, how can we look at a genocide or any act of war or bombing a school full of children and pretend like that in lines with
What they're remotely practice now say again same criticism if we apply to iran
But again, if you come down to like the nuclear war argument, they lie about these things
They are if you look at the evidence it does back up. There's a fought one. They have not done it
You know it's again
It's I want everyone to look into these things for themselves and come to their own conclusions
But I think that's a good way to look at the difference of how it's applied
And how it's I mean even the point about zionism again
It doesn't have to get into this part of it, but it is a misrepresentation of it
It's a bastardization of it versus another framing of you know, we're thinking about that
And I think it's like a weaponization of it if you get what I'm saying
Yeah, no, I
the conversation when we're talking about iran
and you know, my expertise obviously I'm an analyst and I cover west asia my expertise is in like
The levant sham, right? That's where my specific expertise is, but I know a decent amount about iran iranian history
um
And and somebody actually knows about iran
Right, and I'm not saying I know them the most and I'm an expert, you know, and I can be compared to other voices
On iran. I'm not saying that
There are many people that are more educated
However, when I'm just looking at the conversations that are had in the west and amongst some of these
psychopaths, uh, you know who call themselves iranians
Who you know parade around the uh old iranian monarchist flag?
Not knowing that you know the symbology on it is
Goes back to ali and it's actually religious, but regardless
When I look at these conversations and the 30 000 killed protesters in the 40 000 and then it's 80 then it's 120
You know, like why not say two billion protesters were killed in 15 minutes? Why not? It's just as lunatic
It's just as crazy all of this talk about the regime and it's so evil and it's proxies and uh and all the nonsense
It's about we're living in a different reality that they live in their own parallel universe where there's a there's an imaginary iran
In a real iran, which is a country with problems
Yes, it has its own system of government and it has its own people who should be the ones to decide their fate
And here we are in the west talking about how bad they are and if you don't agree with that
Look, I don't agree with I I personally I didn't like Saddam Hussein. I don't like I still
There's nothing that you can really defend about that. I don't think he's a defendable character
I think he did horrible things in iraq, but
Was it right for the united states to go in and invade iraq and and which led to the deaths of a million people
Or to impose sanctions on iraq which starved to death and and led to the deaths
Or because of the lack of medicine all of that of hundreds of thousands of children
No, and it doesn't matter what I think about Saddam Hussein
I'm not iraqi and even if I am iraqi and i'm on the outside
Who am I to go and on television and advocate for the bombing of a country? I no longer live
It's so ridiculous
I agree and the and the better way to you know to say is did it actually benefit the country?
Did it achieve what they were trying to accomplish and or the real question?
Were they even trying to and I that's a different conversation
But I think we could know the history shows you today
They were not but either way the hypothetical point is
Asa Saddam Hussein wasn't a good guy and clearly that's why the u.s. Government worked with him
But the point is that they took him out
And destroyed the country for the purposes of what they claim they're trying to accomplish apply the same logic to iran
Is it even if you think they're the worst group?
Is it going to benefit the country to let this group who clearly is going to sell it out as best they can for their own benefit
At the expense of everybody is it going to benefit the people and we know that's not the case
But I I know we do I don't how much time you have left
Let's let's come back to the list since we can let's kind of finish with the the break the overview
How much time do you have left right now?
We can keep going for a little bit and I should be good for
Uh a little bit. I don't know about 15 minutes or so
There you go
So this and uh this I really to show you really quickly just because you had talked about this
And I guarantee there are people out there that are
Just probably just dismissed what you were saying about this event and just I'm not the grok saying it makes it true
I always point it out. In fact, I'll go over in my next show
I'm going to go over a very interesting point about how grok is clearly being programmed to be subjective to be
To infer and assume and I get why that might be the case with like a conversational point
But it is not in the interest of facts and information and it's used manipulatively a different point
We'll get back to that in the next show
But that's all said that it's a tool and it's often it's often wrong or
Deliberately misinforming but it's still a tool and it's important to reach the certain people who may think that this
May be more aligned with their personal partisan perspective and I think that's why you know
It's worth thinking of it that way now in regard to the um, uh hostage situation
Exactly what you highlighted deep anti-american sentiment had built over decades due to us support for the Shah's authoritarian regime
Including the ci abat coup many Iranians viewed the u.s is responsible for the repression and corruption and ultimately their their values
They pushed on them the immediate trigger was the carter administration's decision to allow him to be exiled to get treatment in
New York as you highlighted rumors of the potential coup to reinstall him after that that's interesting too
I didn't know that like they thought it might be put back in after that
Which spoke to why they were acting the way they were
79 November 4th the group of students
Uh and ended up uh taking 66 american hostages as you said they did in fact let go
Women african-americans and the main point for me is the students demanded the Shah be extradited for trial
I mean just think about the claim these are monster terrorists who want to kill americans for no reason
But they didn't kill any americans and let some of them go and then they wanted trial and process
and officials wanted the u.s apology for the
And for what happened and the release of frozen assets too
You could even overlap that with the obama point and how often this is the case
But the end result diplomatic negotiations were stalled economic sanctions were imposed including freezing their money
Which you know if they took more vicious action
Military rescue attempt as you said went wrong
Negotiations ended up where ultimately they were given concessions give some money back
But it hurt u.s relations with the wrong going forward
52 hostages released in fact not a single person was killed and I think that's so incredible to me
That we can frame that as something like how here's a better question. How was that even included?
in this list of
Americans being killed or I guess just terrorism against americans is how they're framing it, but it's mostly about
Good good, but it's just look. It's just ridiculous. It's the big propaganda
Uh story, you know and and it's often used and and look at the the rest of these on the list
I mean look run back to his full law. It's like, right
Which we covered
Yeah, like as we looked at like has below and like and even some of these cases like the idea that
Uh, this was a run. It's just so ridiculous like
Uh, but I won't suppose get into the his full law attack on a u.s military personnel. But again, we're looking at
Sorry
It's okay
Like I said, there's a little delay but before we move past it the the so we addressed the point that hezbo like so first of all
As you already addressed these are not just iran. That's how they're trying to frame it that anything hezbo
Is involved with is therefore iran did it? That's not the reality of this
So that alone is ridiculous to just blotch include anything they did
But then to the point I want your opinion and we won't go through every one of them
But let's just say 1983
Right, so it says that hezbollah killed 241 americans
And it was a truck bombing at the a compound in beirut
Now I don't you may I don't know if you're familiar with the exact event
But in your mind is that something hezbollah might have done and I would argue
What's going on? Go ahead. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt
Of their involvement. I mean this is in the early
Stages of hezbollah as well like hezbollah. I think officially announced itself in 1985
But this is the sort of early phases
of the organization
And so when we're looking at these events we're looking like at the end of the day the united states
Was a belligerent occupying force to these people
Exactly this
We just watched and
Exactly and 20,000 people had just been slaughtered
Inside of Lebanon and the capital was besieged
And that's the key context to this it didn't come out of nowhere like oh, hey these crazy people hezbollah
They just popped up out of nowhere drove a truck into it
You know and killed all of these and again their military personnel
In a foreign country like when do you see them going over and killing and targeting american civilians?
But where are where are the hezbollah? Where do they target american civilians?
Where do you have any evidence evidence of it of them going into a foreign country in a western country and killing people there?
There's a lot of these weird things that they say and they cite
Right we're gonna get away to frame it for somebody who's an american right so hypothetically
We're talking about is mexico seizes control of texas and then while that's happening
Republicans decide to try to stop them and they bomb it. They bomb
Military personnel who is occupying illegally texas is to inter republican out there
Would you see that as a terrorist act as the republican you probably would not
You know, I always love this point that somebody else
I think it was david made this in the past and you know what they'd probably yell something about god when they did it
Compare that to the idea of what they call terrorism and religious tear
You know religious extremism
It's just it's important to think of it like that and so but regardless
Yes, the the story is that they killed american servicemen
But does it make a difference to you out there if these were american servicemen?
Which we know we're illegally occupying b-route and these was a force that was fighting back
You know, it's the same point from them. They're illegally occupied and at this point
I don't believe that was the case
Well, I don't when was the geneva convention for the fort steven convention
I forget the year but the point was today the legally occupied
Illegally occupied territories have the right to arm resistance. So alone that would address that point, you know
And so if you go down the list here like look, there's hezbollah
Which we we've got into but if you look at down the list here, you've got hamas
There's a hamas suicide bomber in 1995 there. I believe that you're looking at it's like, okay
Like do you really like anyone that has any knowledge?
to try and
Claim that iran is behind hamas suicide bombings
Is insane
It's just stupid especially today with how much information
And again, there's like there's cases. I think we looked at one earlier and it's like, oh, you know, they killed like an american
Yeah, here's the one what uh iran back terrorists killed an american israeli jewel citizen and wounded another american in the west bank
And if you look at what that attack is there israeli settlers
They're settlers
Literally illegal settlers. Yeah, they might have american passports
But you know what israeli settlers many of them with his uh with uh with american passports have killed
american palestinians in the west bank and the u.s
Doesn't care and it does nothing and it never talks about it
Just brushes it under the rug like it's nothing and these are these people themselves talking about terrorists and religious fundamental
these people are
religious fundamentalists
Ideologues they they some of the worst that we can today
Somebody that's been attacked by them personally. I have been attacked by them
like I I know for a fact that these are fundamentalist extremists so
Like the idea oh, well, there's an amer there's someone who's an american citizen who again, it's like context here
Was this american citizen serving in the military and in a foreign country committing an occupation?
Or invading a foreign like or was this person an illegal settler who probably lived in a heavily armed gated facility
Guarded by an army that's illegally there against international law and stealing someone else's land
And then was kidnapped or killed by the people that they're robbing like I mean
It's just it's so dumb and from the foundation for defensive democracies. It's it's to be expected
It's just that right that's the whole point is that this is being this was something posted
In 2025 by a group clearly influenced by israeli intelligence that now the u.s. Government the white house
Just parents like literally puts out the exact same list to justify this
So clearly this is this is reactive, you know and the point before as I highlighted the article you put up that this
Right now the religious extremism coming out of the Zionist elements and some of the settlers are the worst I've ever seen
Are are you know one of the worst examples of that in the world today?
And that's that's really important to understand and that that's even alongside the groups
Which by the way we should understand are very much being funded armed and and
basically, you know in many ways
Conducted or are operated
Uh isis and al-qaeda and I actually just went over this again recently in a show about the idea that isis and al-qaeda were
Very much created by the united states. It's an open secret. We should all know that you and I've talked about this before
um, but to go back to the list
One of the things that was in here interesting is you know, because right we know of the palestinian islamic jihad
It that represent that exists in hamas, but this is the islamic jihad
So on that one we haven't talked about and I know we have a limited time just briefly like so
This is 1995 islamic jihad terrorists killed eight people including one american citizen in gaza
So was that at the time the palestinian islamic jihad or was that something that changed and do you think that represents iran?
It doesn't represent iran, but look palestinian islamic jihad again. They like to frame all of these groups as being
You know creations and islamic jihad in it's specific. They try and claim that it's a creation
Of iran and that's just not correct. It was formed really in the like late 1970s
It started committing armed operations before hamas by the way because there was sort of a competition between them and hamas
That had arisen in the gaza strip where they emerged and islamic jihad
uh emerged as sort of the
group that had a lot more support amongst the
poorer population in the gaza strip whereas hamas
Uh, obviously it expanded later
And especially for its charitable work and it became a much bigger organization because of its social programs
um, and the islamic civil society sector that it set up
but
with islamic jihad
What they did is they sort of were the pioneers of islamic
styled resistance because before that in the gaza strip it was all
Uh, nationalists, but really mainly the strongest power forces. There were
communist groups in the gaza strip
And so when they failed
People were looking for a sort of new ideology or doctrine. And so many of those people
that were formerly part of fattah or even
Or even the pflp and other groups ended up joining islamic jihad
And what they would do is literally they were
This they were poor
They would get their hands on a grenade and just throw it into an israeli military camp or just
Open fire and very very rarely did they ever even kill any israeli soldiers
And there was a big clash before the first intifada
That they pulled off and all of the islamic jihad fighters were killed
Um, which was sort of just right before the intifada, which was a non-violent uprising
Which was when hamas emerge
Because hamas before was like the social islamic organization
Called the mujama
But islamic jihad used to sort of fight back and forth with the mujama people because the mujama at that time
Which later became hamas
Were against armed resistance altogether
They believed that you have to first unite the muslim umma
So the muslim body and then afterwards when everyone's perfect muslim zen you can fight
Um, I still argue there's opening right there for influence the funding we've talked about
But I know it's not the same as complete control
But I do feel like there was an influence there from that element that that
Ultimately did drive them in a direction to become more that of the thing that could be used to justify certain responses
We don't have to get into all that we've talked about it many times and I think your opinion is the best
I've heard on it, you know, that's more nuanced, but I find that interesting. Yeah
Hamas islamic jihad is separate. So they're a separate group
Um, yeah
Yeah, hamas. So the mujama, which was active in the 70s in the 80s
So they were officially given approval by the israeli occupying authorities
Um, and they even got some funding given to them
And again, the reason why they got given this funding and the approval to operate was because at the start
They did a lot of look they did a lot of good work. They founded things like the islamic
University in the gaza strip, uh, the islamic the islamic civil sector civil societies sector is
Uh, was better than anything else that uh was on offer
It really developed and they did a lot for the people a lot of charity and stuff like this
but
This organization was against violence against the israelis
Some of their activists would go into the streets and attack people for not being conservative enough for drinking alcohol
For not dressing a certain way
Stuff like this and the israelis quite frankly didn't mind that they would like that
They like people that are like that, right?
whereas if you look at islamic jihad
Islamic jihad from the start was fighting and so from the start they wanted to hunt them down and kill them
They didn't give them any authorization or anything like that
But then in the mid 1980s
Uh, the mujama set up
Something which was called an masjid, which was the security apparatus, which they then formed
For this organization and so they suddenly started arming themselves
And so when that happened and this is where people like yahya sinwar
and uh, the founder of the mujama and then hamas
Uh, ahmed yasin started getting in trouble with the israeli authorities
They started arresting them and torturing them and going after their people and from that point on
That's when they started to form real serious armed cells
Up until the point of the intifada in 1987
Uh, they really they they took this seriously and they formed, uh, the gossam
El gossam brigades in, uh
later
officially, uh, but uh, they had this sort of security apparatus and those fighters by 1988
And really they didn't get going until the 1990s like
To be honest like in terms of a serious military organization at that point israel was hunting them down and murdering them and
Uh, there's a there's a lot to go into there. The reason why I talked about aslamic jihad and hamas though
was because
To show you that they're not simply organizations that and and and the and another point here to this is
They didn't start getting funding
from
Iran until the 1990s until the early 1990s. That's when iran started backing them
So the whole idea and concept that these groups were like, you know
Iranian proxies that iran created in the gaza strip
No, like the reason why i'm telling you all of this stuff and going into this whole
Um, you know rabbit hole here and elaborating on this and rambling a little bit is just to demonstrate that these groups were functioning in a society
Completely separate to iran and they had their own disputes and everything way before iran came in and provided them funding
Um, and the reason they got this backing from iran was because their leaders were all exiled by the israelis
They were in prison and then exiled to lebanon and that's where they started getting those connections with iran
so
That's an important thing to know like again, and it goes against the notion of proxies and all of this
No, these are organic movements
These are organic movements. You can love them. You can hate them. You can have lots of criticisms of them
You can have barely any it doesn't matter, but they're not proxies. They're just not and it's
Correct the point today
Right, there's a lot of different things to get into but the real and you know
Like you just said it doesn't mean that we have to think they're the best story
You can still think they're terrorist organizations, but it's just not what they're claiming and the allegations
They're trying to lay at their feet in many cases are whole cloth lies
So what last couple minutes? Let's just finish down the list and ultimately anything jumps out to you that you
Want to make sure you discuss let me know but you know it just continues
I mean 90 percent of these if not more are
Iran backed something Iran backed Hezbollah run back to Moss, which we just went over how these are not the real
well, I guess
You could the point I make is that when they say Iran backed and very clearly. I mean even
Yeah, I mean they're they're literally talking about the proxies like that's the way they're framing it
But Iran backed is not necessarily incorrect, but it is when you know the way they're trying to make the case
That's what I'm just trying to make clear
But ultimately they're not proxies
But the overall that these were attacks carried out by Hezbollah or Hamas or jihad and that's not aran
Doing that but the old the point is can see it jumps out to me
Sorry, sorry to interrupt
But if you go down there it says in 2001 2002 that there was an attack carried out by the al-Aqsa martyrs brigades. Okay now
The al-Aqsa martyrs brigades were uh, essentially created by Yasser Arafat. Arafat was not backed by
Iran Iran was not the one backing these groups
At that time. I mean it's so like again an al-Aqsa martyrs brigades, by the way
Were from the secular fatih group. They're not an islamic group, right?
They might have been muslims, but they're they're not an islamic group
That's not their ideology like Hamas and jihad and some of the others like there's many different ones which emerged afterwards
Which now exists today, but al-Aqsa martyrs brigade were affiliated with
um, specifically as well during the days of yasser arafat
um
to fight against the israelis, so
Again, it's it's it's
Stupid it's just dumb
But I wanted to note that because I saw it there and I was like, okay
Like let's pinpoint on this because this is a secular group
Which again, this is just nonsense like iran is not responsible for a group that was fighting on behalf of arafat, you know
I was just laughing about this to the day that it's you know, that's why I was saying like in the beginning
You know, it's some of these things are so self-evident like just so like objectively not the game that it's like
It's I find it hard to engage with them like we take it seriously
You know
But we it's important to do it for those that may we don't want to look like we're being
You know derisive or that we're just dismissing things we are that we're going to the evidence
That's the point
But you know these things it's it is absurd to make these allegations and I was saying this about a lot of things
In fact, one of them was the idea that you can without question
Show how isis and al-qaeda were not just by a byproduct allowed to be created
But were created and actually stoked and actions were taken by the u.s
Government and and israel in many cases to literally for you know, these are not questionable
So it's frustrating that we have to keep acting like it's a nuance to pin
You know, like you said, you know, well, they're all this but let's talk about the facts
It's like, you know, don't throw them the fake bones address the facts
That's all that matters and one of them likes that's why i'm saying this al-qaeda suicide bombs, you know
It's it's ridiculous that we even take seriously that by the way these groups isis in particular that has
Like I just pointed out over 2025 suddenly attacks
Iran and then takes credit for it yet. They're still the state sponsor of terrorism
And it's happens to be right when israel's criticizing them
Yeah, you know, it's just it's embarrassing that we can't take it and take see what that is
But whether or not you think it's tied to something else
Iran is not
Connected to al-qaeda and isis not a yaw logic. Like these are these are sunni ultimate groups
Like these are not it doesn't make any sense
But it works for people who don't understand even what that is or why the shiite sunni conversation is very important for israel's religious war
Or what they're really trying to do, but it's just, you know, same kind of point
It all doesn't make much sense, but almas backed
Iran backed popular resistance committees. I'm not i'm not you know any reference to that
um, then the main
Okay, right. And so the main point so same point then january 2007 a dozen men affiliated with the irgc
Cuds force kills five u.s soldiers
Now this is where we start to get into what I think is interesting where we're talking about in many cases
You know action like iraq overlaps syria overlaps. We're talking about situations where you're you know, p.m
You responding to illegal actions from these occupying forces
And so whether you're talking about a tangential group or that whether it's around or not that they're just responding to illegal occupation
There's really no way to see these as anything other than misrepresentations
um
This one's different former fbi agent happens to disappear in iran likely dying in his ron print. Do you know anything about that one?
Likely
Yeah, that I personally don't actually
Didn't heard of that before to be honest with you
um
I don't know why I missed that like I should know about that, but I don't know why I don't know about this
Like I I hadn't something that's not something was on my radar. They're really according to state department officials
Which right there should be a red flag was never publicly seen or heard from again. Well, okay
So by that very point then we don't know what happened
Exactly. So why is he on your list? Right? Well, I think it's one of these so
Right, but so ron back to moth ron back to moth ron back and this is this is kateeb haspola, right?
So it's the same. It's what that rack groups, right?
Yeah, so now we're getting into the groups which were formed after like kata kata ispola is
Uh part of the p.m. You
Um, right, right and again like now look at these attacks here
It's like oh, well, there was a hundred and one a hundred and nine troops that suffered traumatic brain injuries because
You assassinated it runs top general and then they retaliated. Is it like
Literally no legal response and and and again like we were dealing with today
Well, actually salamani was a little different since they bombed him in iraq
But today, you know is the u.s. Is bombing in iran
So iran would have every legal right to have responded bomb the united states
And I don't want that to happen, but they're not doing that that's restrained
And so in this case, you know, it's the same kind of idea. They were bombed. They were attacked illegally
In fact, the most disgusting part of that as you know
Was they invited him under the guise of diplomacy?
And as I understand it the only reason he wanted him to come to iraq to kill him was because they still were arguing
They could use the 2002 a umf and it was
Destabilizing iraq by being there and so they murdered him. That's that was that's the logic
I believe they were trying to operate under but they murdered him
And so they responded and bombed the us base in iraq and they claimed that was it, you know
terrorism I guess
to 2020 same indicated rani regime was considering a plot to assassinate selva
Okay, the u.s. Intelligence says
Iran rocket killed american citizen in iraqi Kurdistan, you know, and again, we're not talking about rani and rockets right there
We're talking about the pmu
I mean any number of examples or irgc orchestrated the killing of american citizen and bagdad, you know these some of these i'm not um
I don't the exact instances, but rani officer charged with orchestrating murder of us citizen iraq, you know
My argument was if you go through this information, you'll likely
Find out that you know, this is coming from something the us is claiming but is iran capable
Of killing something through me. Yes, and also this is any legal occupation of iraq, you know
All of these abuses have already been discussed, you know rather justifications
I'm trying to
Jump in if you if you have any thoughts
No, and all of this is like if you compare it to the amount of iranians that have been killed in the region in their
own region and over their own airspace by the israelis
It doesn't compare
by the american sorry
Uh, the u.s. Military has caused way more death and destruction to the iranian people
Um, and so it's just ridiculous and there have been assassinations carried out by the united states and the israelis inside of iran for decades
No, it's it's so
Ridiculous these arguments and then look at it like
It's good that we've gone for this list because they're just clutching at straws
You know, it's like the fact that they put al qaeda on there
and
They put all at the iran's response not even killing americans injuring right because they didn't admit any deaths
Right, so injuring americans with a retaliatory strike on a u.s. Base
Uh, you know, they're clutching at straws and they can't produce this thousands number
Even when they're clutching at straws
Um, which I think just demonstrates how ridiculous
This argument is that they put out and like we're like we were talking about earlier. They live in this parallel universe
You know, the iran that they're talking about is not the real iran that exists
You know, that's the most of their propaganda in the world are really just most propaganda from any country
But just to wrap up in general, you know, now we're in the realm of what we've been dealing with
You know, where we were talking about where this has been the posture has been obvious
Trump can't stop telling you how he needs to remove iran his last administration now
And so they clearly recognize that they're under threat just like they knew this was going to come
And that's why they warned if you do it, we're going to respond this way
You know and and we didn't get into it because that's the point today
But the evidence is undeniably clear based on their own statements that there was no eminent threat
And so they this is all illegal regardless, but they're now citing these responses
You know june 2025 iran-backed militias attacked at least three bases
You know, this is stuff that's responding to what they're doing in the area 12. They wore forward even the most recent examples
Which they could tack on in regard to anything that's happening. You know, it's obviously about
their
Justifiable responses to what the us and israel are doing in the world. I mean, this is this is not about taking sides
It's about the legality. It's the reality of international law
It's the reality of what the us and israel have always been doing in my experience
And if you want to criticize like we have today in some ways
What iran does in their country or what they do in their foreign policy then go at it
That's not the same point is recognizing the us is lying about what they're doing
And I just think that has to matter
And I thought that list needed to be broken down because right now they're using this argument to
I mean really I think create another forever never-ending ongoing kind of middle east discussion, you know
And i'm very worried about that
Then you know any final thoughts and i'll just kind of rattle off some some points here on the uh
On the screen for people to see, you know with what we're dealing with right now and the road to the ground forces and
Anyway, go ahead any any last thoughts
No, I just say that obviously this work does not serve us interests. I think the israelis
Ultimately, they're willing to drag down the us economy
They're willing to destroy the us if it's going to come to that
And and and the presidency of of donald trump at that and also I think their aim is to degrade
the persian gold states
To degrade the iranian economy by going after civilian targets by going after its infrastructure
And then hoping that they survive at the end of this
so that then uh
In essence what they've done is it created the uh the conditions
Where in the future the iranian government might be weaker and there might be more chance for a regime change effort using
Their own proxies on the ground to do it
Like we saw a similar
Scenario in syria. I don't believe this will work personally
I think all of this death and destruction is ultimately going to result in a loss for the united states military
And a loss for the israelis, but that's what they're trying to do and they're very desperate and they have been since october 7
They believe that if they can't crush iran
And they can't achieve their greater israel project
Then they won't exist in the long term and I believe that that assessment is actually correct
Because in terms of what they deem as existing as as israel and greater israel
That can't exist
In the long term it just won't
Now they could have they had an opportunity
To be able to exist and to have their place secured in the region
But they chose not to do
The so-called two-state solution, which I thought was
A terrible solution for the palestinian people. It's not fair at all to them. However
The palestinian leadership at the time would have taken it
It's very clear and then they could have been integrated into the whole region
Everyone would have accepted them everyone signed on to that the arab peace initiative
You can look up the arab peace initiative
They had the chance and they didn't want it. So now americans are gonna die
You're gonna pay a lot more to fill up your tank
And there's gonna be inflation and and your what you're paying there when you go and fill up your tank is the israel premium
You're paying the israel premium there. You're paying for this war
directly and so
That's that's where things stand right now. It's it's sad, but unfortunately, you know
There's not even people on the street in opposition to this that could change because
It's going to personally affect them going forward. So it could change but
Again, like this is a terrible decision
On the part of the u.s leadership and it just demonstrates that this trump administration is completely captured by the israel lobby
Completely captured has no mind of its own. It just serves israel's interests
Yeah, and I you know, and I think the world and especially the u.s
Population is is great is coming to terms with that and that doesn't mean it's you know, it's not something that
Is you know, it's something that we can overcome like anything else as much as it may seem insurmountable
And I'll also add to finish that this is something that's now being jumped on as a last-ditch effort in my opinion to justify
Why trump somehow is always, you know, like the the very point of being controlled by israel is now being floated as why he's not responsible
But at the same time that it turns out that he is only doing this at his own expense to fight for us from within the broken system
Glenn beck is genuinely arguing that he's he always knew this would happen
He knew israel controlled the democrats, right? So he worked his way in in order to to to control what he could
I'm just go. It's
evidence-free
Grapp blinds a self-serving assumption to just give yourself like right now
There's so many people that are starting to see that they were not what they said they were
And then you get a glen deck that gives them something that goes. Oh, they can go. Oh, thank god
I knew I was right to score ignore everything else. It turns out. I really was right trump was really sacrificing for us
Just be smarter than that guys. It's quite obvious
This is not what this this is not what you were promised and every everything they're doing other than this is showing that as well
I'm just glad it's happening. So thank you again, robert for for joining us
We can do this more often and I'll leave you with a clip from patrick clauson that I think is always important
So as always everybody out there question everything come to your own conclusions. Stay vigilant
I frankly think that crisis initiation is really tough
And it's very hard for me to see how the united states
President can get us to war with iran
Which leads me to conclude that if in fact compromise is not coming
That the traditional way of america gets to war is what would be best for you as interests
Some people might think that mr. Roosevelt wanted to get us into world war two as david mentioned
You may recall. We had to wait for pearl harbor
Some people might think mr. Wilson wanted to get us into world war one. You may recall. He had to wait for the lucetani episode
Some people might think that mr. Johnson wanted to send troops to vietnam. You may recall
We had to wait for the gulf of tonkin episode
We didn't go to war with spain until the uss until the main exploded
And may I point out that mr. Lincoln did not feel he could call out the federal army until fort sumter was attacked
Which is why he ordered the commander at fort sumter to do exactly that thing which the south carolinians had said would cause
Attack
So if in fact the iranians aren't going to compromise it would be best if somebody else started the war
But I would just like to suggest that
One can combine other means of pressure with sanctions
I mentioned that explosion
On august 17th, we could step up the pressure
I mean look people iranian submarines periodically go down someday one of them might not come up
Who would know why?
We can do a variety of things if we wish to
Increase the pressure. I'm not advocating that but I'm just suggesting that
This is not a either or proposition of you know, it's just sanctions has to has to succeed or other things
We are in the game
Of using covert means against the iranians
We we could get nastier at that