What up, vigilantes? It is my pleasure to be here with you guys today and to have someone
before me who I've been wanting to introduce to you guys for a very long time, Mark Wilcox.
He's one of the guys, the team, we're going to learn more about this phenomenon called
21E8. How are you doing, Mark? Good. How are you?
Thank you for, I'm doing good. Thank you for being with us. And you know, 21E8
has been something that has captivated my imagination, my mind. And I'm the first one to admit that
I'm the one, I'm one of those that really saw a lot of wonder in it and I want to learn more
about it. What is 21E8?
Well, we, we've had several kind of like periods that we've gone through. Really like the best
sort of tagline I always go back to is where the magic number company. So what is it and who are we
and what not? Sort of like you can, you can pretty much answer it relatively completely. I've
been saying that since about 2020 when we were really getting started. Yeah, in that, in that
tagline, it leads you to another question is what is a magic number? But also there's sort of like
lots of other magic number companies around now. So I think we can maybe kind of go into that.
And that'll help paint a bigger picture about sort of what we're trying to do and where things are
hitting. And yeah.
There's a lot of very, there's a lot of very interesting origin stories regarding Bitcoin
and regarding the Bitcoin infrastructure. And for example, I've read that Satoshi launched
Bitcoin in a way that mirrored the seven days of God's creation as seen in the book of Genesis.
Do you know about that? Is there something you can speak to that?
I can't say like, I don't, I don't know particularly what you might be referring to where
someone said that, but it was something like, I think around like, when I first met Andrew
DeSantis, when I became friends with Andrew, that was sort of like, like you quickly
start learning and identifying the similarities, right? And it has this very sort of like interesting
kind of layered approach and you find your way back to the root. So 100%. I think there's
some 2017 tweets from me like floating around sort of on the, you know, with that sort of
lens. And I think maybe like Craig Wright sort of picked up on that about six or nine
months later. I can't remember. There was definitely like a very funny video. I don't
know. You probably deleted off YouTube now of Ryan Charles and he later sort of like was
able to escape the cult of Craig Wright. So I think he that's part of why he cleaned
his channel up. But there was a very much like that narrative has definitely been floating
around the Bitcoin for a while.
But it's also something that is very close to not just one school of thought within
Bitcoin, these things up here across all of Bitcoin, even, you know, the small blocker
camp really sees the, the, a lot of intentionality behind Bitcoin. And you guys were able to
notice that there was a hash at the, at the first block of Bitcoin history that read
218. And that had a lot of not right at the start, not right at the start. But it
was very, it was very serendipitous in that Andrew and I were, I was actually visiting Andrew,
I stayed with him for like two weeks in Mississippi in 2018. And I already had the
218 domain and I sort of like he was selling me on this like E8 lattice ideas. And I
thought that was really fun and funny. But there was a company 21 E six that he
was sort of involved with, which was the biggest Bitcoin startup in the world
from about 21 right 21, they rebranded because they couldn't like kind of stomach
the dimensionality of the original name that came out in their slide decks. So
they eventually like went from 21 E six.com to 20 21.co. And they kind of like
really diluted themselves and eventually like sold themselves to to Coinbase
for for basically just about the same money that they that they raised in
the first place. Anyway, I thought it was really funny. I have a like a
habit of like buying shit poster domain names like I have frog dot vision, you
can go to frog dot vision slash frog vision dot PDF, and we'll have the it'll
have like the Bitcoin white paper except we rebranded it to say it's
instead of Satoshi, it's coin easy. And it's all bright green 21 E eight color.
Okay, so I had a habit of doing that. And one of the domains that I had
was 21 E eight.com because it was kind of like 21 E six except instead
of paying loads of money because like they did for the 21.co domain, it was
around at the time. I was like, I'll buy that one for $20. Thank you. And I put
some cool cell reactive diffusion WebGL animation on it and like and put it
on my Twitter profile and like left it for a bit. And then a year later, I
was sort of at Andrew DeSantis's place in Mississippi. He was tweeting
the Bitcoin Genesis block hash and and and we were working on
like mock ups and we'd been time stamping tweets or from from from
Twitter and post tweets, tag the open time stamps proof bot and then
delete it. So there was this like met a game of the information market
sort of like that that there's this there's this hidden hidden
information like strategy game being played, you know, all around the
internet where Bitcoin we have to be able to, you know, be there at each
moment to capture the data, record it and then reconstitute it on the
blockchain. Right. And so we had been doing that for about a year or
something. And yeah, later later on I was like at Andrew DeSantis's
place and and we were working on like making a UI so that we could
reconstruct all these all these tweets that were that were stored
stored on on BTC. And this is like from before the halving. But
then at this point, this is sorry, not halving the hash war, the fork,
but but then later on this is like post for and and and it just
like caught the glimpse of my eye that like the latest block like had
that number and I'm like, and I was closing the tab, it was like,
well, I'm closing the tab and I'm like, wait, and I like reopened
it reopened ago, like command shift T and then reopen the tab
again. And I'm like, oh, that's funny. And so I tweeted, of course,
and Andrew had tweeted right before that he tweeted like hashtag
with the genesis block hash. And and and and we did that like
we thought that was really funny. But it like caught on and he
stayed up all night like shitposting, you know, meme, like
memeing it. And then like two days later, it's like the UK
telegraph newspaper like in futurism.com and everything they all have
these like big articles about mysterious block hash signals the
return of Satoshi Nakamoto, right? So there was this sort of whole
he had lots of like, you know, he had this meme of like, or this
narrative of like Satoshi Nakamoto is a time traveling alien
you know, sent from the future and quantum computers and all this
kind of stuff. And sort of that that that was almost like the
coining of that like it originally it was just this like
sort of funny thing of some ideas that we had floating around
with the E8 lattice and like optimal graphs and and the
Bitcoin network and so and so forth and little like
interesting things that that Andrew was doing on the BTC
chain as well with memory addresses. And then and then yeah
sort of like there was a serendipitous thing which is
like signed from the universe that you're like that you're
on the right track. And then and then you know next
thing you know it's all in the news and everything.
So when I so when I was I was working in the company at the
time but then like sort of a year after that or something
yeah about 12 months after that I was sort of hey hey like I
want to go work on all this you know these are Bitcoin sort
of AI related ideas. I'd had lots of experience with like
what now is this AI and video super computing thing and
I guess I started working on that 10 years ago now.
And that was just like the natural no not on Bitcoin just like
in the in the AI and the Nvidia space but then sort of like
that that that you know crossed over with Bitcoin around this
time. And so when I was like hey I really want to go start
looking at working on some of those ideas it was sort of
like the obvious name to pick for for the company
because there wasn't some you know like there was a very
particular focused concept around this way that you
can encode information in Bitcoin hashes but all of the
other things that you might you know that might be what you
need to do with that like well we had to had to go and set out
and try to try to answer those questions for ourselves so
so I picked that name you know for for the company at
the time said like hey let's try to recruit a bunch of
people and turn this into something and you know it
was a bit of my bad luck that like we basically did that on
the same day that the COVID sort of like you know virus
got spawned out over the Internet and sort of like that
took over but weirdly you know that was just kind of one
Bitcoin halving ago really you know like plus a year at this
point obviously but we're only one cycle.
Bitcoin conference in London as well.
Yeah yeah yeah and there were a bunch of a bunch of us
were all there there was like right before yeah right
before all the all the lockdowns and stuff started yeah.
So what a lot of us theorize at the moment it happened is
is we because at the time we were at Anarcapulco and we
said this whole lockdown is happening to stop the twenty
one eight guys.
That's literally what a lot of us said across the world
in in Anarcapulco Mexico as we're like there's just
too much energy coming from that conference.
Yeah yeah there's definitely the when you when you kind
of go like when you look in history of a sort of like
Einstein and different people like the inventing the same
things at the same time I think there's like the
information environment has like encoded in it you know
potential energies that that they only just become
possible you know like within a certain window and
there's a high chance that like somebody might be
like five minutes behind you.
So it was very sort of interesting seeing all these
sort of like ARG type of techniques like from you know
from the mainstream media that like basically six months
after that like we were going around London like taking
pictures of things and like hashing them and and
tagging them and everything and having these ideas about
how you can use proof of work to like classify and
index and associate information well it was very
interesting to see like six months later mainstream
you know I guess it was like maybe a bit more
like 12 months but that you know like your iPhone
would have the cryptographic contacts tracing thing
that it spits out hashes so that if you go to the
grocery store and you don't necessarily like keep away
from everybody else's Bluetooth antennas like at
the distance that they tell you in the news then
there's a random lottery chance that you're going to
have to stay home for two weeks so it was very
interesting like sort of from from our perspective
going like oh shit like we had perfect timing but
we had no fucking clue like you know what was
coming down the pipeline and we got like stuck in
New Zealand for the first two years of of trying to
do everything and so most of the last cycle was
basically that first half and then the entire
sort of like correction from that where it's sort
of like it went from you know everything being
completely locked down you're not allowed to go
anywhere or go or do anything or associate with
anybody and like don't look the right you know
like careful what way that you look when you walk
across the street or something to just a hundred
percent like full throttle you know with all this
Elon and Etts and Trump and everything like in the
in the second half of it so the whole last cycle
is basically just purely dominated by this
you know like this COVID years or then like the
Elon thing is the correction in from that
and that's where I sort of made this thing about
like well you know we're not the only magic number
company anymore is it now you have this interesting
funny doge thing which which you know there's a
lot of like the playbook that of new tricks and
new things and new ways of thinking that were
invented in the last cycle that Elon is off
you know like putting through the US government
at the moment particularly about like putting
you know assessing transactions and auditing
the treasury and putting classification codes on
things and and and my my suspicion suspicion
is it's going to lead to a lot of assessment
and like things that would lead to like multi-sig
on on government and agency you know
work and so forth and there was a lot of that
that we were quite keen to get into but
but honestly like we spent most of this
you know last cycle on this kind of information
problem like what's the information environment
how do you understand you know how to interpret
what you're seeing and and and and and so forth
because it was really like you know the big
moment was like the was was chat GPT right so
you actually sort of have like these three
there's this sort of like covert event there's
the chat GPT and event which is kind of like
the crossover and in the middle which is
when the within is like hey all the all the
all the all the curtains are coming down
and like now we're now you're seeing you know how
things are running behind the scenes and you get
everybody gets access to technology now
so obviously like when they were running
covert you know there was people like
I generating the you know daily reports
about this and that and that's how they could get
the sort of like coordination coordination
and synchronization and consistency
but then in the end of that is this
sort of like transformation of you know
Jack Dorsey
censorship
Twitter into Elon Musk
X corp Bitcoin
AI Twitter right where they actually
managed to kind of like take the take
both sides of the aisle where you had this
sort of like AI technology that was
you know one side and and and basically
you know he managed he managed to like
convert he managed to monetize crypto
in the process of doing that and that's
part of why he's like the king maker
you know and in the present moment is
because he figured out how to how to
cross over that and he and you know he's
very much like a global
politician in that sense as well and
there's not really many other people you
know you could think of it as like there's
a very
memorable tweet I think from that
the
what's the guy's name
I can't remember his name it was the
maker Dowl found a guy who
went crazy
here's a tweet that's like we in the
we in the cloud
timeline yeah and so the reason that
Elon is the king maker is that he
managed to take Craig right and
claus Schwab and like become become
the you know become the united
united person right
you said it's yeah we we in the
we we in the claus Schwab versus
Craig right timeline so both of them
last in the last cycle but this new
guy of Elon Musk he managed to kind
of like beat them both at their own
game right yeah
so this is I made a tweet that was
like a we had a Adrian Ditman down
here and I made a tweet it was a he
did this Twitter space with
Charlotte fang and Nick Fuentes and I
tweeted like we in the we in the
Charlotte fang versus Nick Fuentes
timeline and then Adrian Ditman is
trying to kind of like you know like
we don't need you Nick Fuentes and
Charlotte fang anymore because you
know I sound like Elon Musk yeah
there you go okay so we we've
talked about many things thus far
and I think in order to bring
things to perspective for the viewer
I think it's a good a good moment
where we need to step back and like
if you could please explain to people
what computational data markets are
and how they are the backbone
marketplace for all of computation
all of the internet all of crypto
and now how you know a lot of that
computations moving into AI
what is the computational data market
so this is like a a concept that
kind of like really was was sort of
like driving my interpretation
understanding of Bitcoin like in
2018 2019 like late 2019 when I was
when I was starting up the project
and that was sort of like the original
speculation that we were sort of
sort of like that our ambition
was to run for that that was like
five years ago it's still really
relevant like the relevance of that
speculation is is really high now
I saw if you actually want it so
so five years ago that was sort of like
when you that was like really really
hard to grasp so we're like wouldn't
even resonate with people but if but we
were trying to kind of like not fork off
but we're trying to create very different
language to then think about what
is really going on here and can we like
remove the speculation and the drama
and everything else and then talk and
then talk about how things are working
and how they could potentially work under
the hood right and on one side
you had these like AI algorithms and
Twitter Bitcoin Twitter and like
you know the feed and the algorithm
and and the attention and
and Bitcoin was huge on there
and you also had these sort of like
historical dramas of like you know the
takeover of Bitcoin talk and the
takeover of of our Bitcoin
and the takeover of you know
and the Wikipedia and things in
there too but that but ultimate
takeover of BTC right and
the changing of how
that how that fits together so
can I say around this time real
quick the company 21
with Andrew the Santis I remember
how that was
one of the center points of
contention in regards to the future
of what Bitcoin was to
evolve into and I remember
that he even had employed
small blockers which maybe
he he regretted at the time because
he had employees at 21
who were constantly challenging
his world view of
having Bitcoin involved
involved in in the pretty much
if I remember correctly the internet of
things Bitcoin powering
the internet of things so
so I just wanted to bring
that back to mind because
that company 21 I remember
it being very
it was almost like a tipping point in
Bitcoin history where Andrew had
a lot of momentum and
then since
Bitcoin was united at that time
I don't think he expected for
his own employees to
well Andrew there was an Andrew's
there was Bellagio Srinivasan's company
Andrew was one of these like
you know characters that I think
that there were several of these characters
Andrew was involved in Bitcoin magazine
and I think that's how he ended up at 21
21 was really exciting that
attracted me a lot the idea was
essentially our running REST API
services over payment channels
and eventually you know
part of that turned into
the Lightning Network
right with
transacting over payment channels
but also they had to deal with Qualcomm
where they were trying to put a Bitcoin mining chip
into smartphones and
the head of operating systems
and all the low level stuff for
Qualcomm
is the founder of Solana
so I don't know like
whether they were involved in that but it's interesting to see
like well what was happening then
and where did it lead to
their business model was essentially
and then the other thing was that they had
you know Mark Andreessen
it was a Mark Andreessen like Bellagio
he was like a really
you know fast riser working
at Andreessen Horowitz he doesn't work at Andreessen Horowitz
since their exit
but what is
the Mark Andreessen sort of camp now in the space
well it's EAC right
so
what was there
still exists that sort of like the Silicon Valley
view
but there was already at this time there was sort of like
the Silicon Valley Democrat
and then sort of like this kind of
amorphous sort of all
I wouldn't say it was a small block
camp at the time
but there was
the overtime
it ended up there
and so you could sort of imagine that like
the small block camp like you know took out
you know it hit like Mark Andreessen
around that
around that time but part of the reason for it
was like a conflict of capital because they're taking
venture capital which is speculative
capital and then you know trying to
mine bitcoin with it and then they find
that they just lose all their money very quickly
right whereas if they just took that
and did what Mike Haseyla is doing
right if they just took that money
and bought bitcoin with it it would have worked very well for them
and I think that they still have
I think Mark Andreessen still owns a very large
number of coins to
to this day and that's part of why he just kind of like
sits quietly on the internet
and doesn't talk about too much
okay so
before I interrupted
what you were saying you were talking about
that there was a point in time
when
in bitcoin history
where things could have gone in a
direction of
which you saw
you said that there was a
a moment of time where
what you saw in bitcoin was
a take to
incorporate this
computational data market idea
and just
to move it forward as part
of the bitcoin roadmap
per se to market strategy
yeah well there was this
interesting dynamic of what bitcoin was becoming
in 2017 with like
starting to create these information
markets with the time stamping
and with
Twitter events I think that was around the time
that Jack Doisie came back to Twitter
and he was running
the Stripe Payment Company and he was trying to
integrate those two behind the scenes
he eventually made a cash
app at Twitter and the guy
who set up cash app and run
all the bitcoin team there
like they were all
he was buddies with us
with me and Andrew and everything
and I think he's
still floating around
so there was that happening in the time
and there was like a potential
for bitcoin really to kind of
take off a button this is sort of like
before it did its original run to 10k
really take off
and become this
sort of like become a social network
essentially like around this time of
2017
and that kind of was what
really like that amplification
led to the hash
war and the forks
so that actual social media
sort of amplified conflicts where the social
media and the github repos
like that wasn't secured on chain
that wasn't secured by proof of
work and it wasn't
you know
that ended up
creating this event
where bitcoin desynchronized and it turned
into multiple chains
a similar like much
in response to that actually is like
well I came from like the kind of
GPU world
where like yeah but these things called
GPUs exist and you can just like compute
all the bitcoins back together if you like
and so I started
to be the hyper dimensional bitcoin company
which is like yeah we know that there's these
three that there's these three different
coins out there
of like BTC and BCH
and BSV each of them
just they just represent one of the properties
of money so if you get confused into
like thinking that one of them is going to
win against the other you don't know what's going on
but if you know that they all
run on the same standard and you can just buy and sell
any of them an atomic swap and whatnot
then if you just
either like hold precoin
pre fork coins that's the best thing to do
but if you don't do that then just
collect up a bunch of them manage them
proportionally you know to their hash
rate and then great you've just magicked
up a fourth thing which is not
any of these
any of these isolated ones
that are all in competition with each other
those are more like pools so if you
imagine that there's a
hash power distribution well maybe
you want to much more
outweigh it to one thing or the other
you got to look at the pricing
but essentially we're like hey we can
make this fourth thing
we're going to use completely different words
doesn't sound anything like it and we don't even
care about the token we're going to look at
there's a really like
we always refer to it this is paper
money is memory
which is that from an infom if you look
at all of these things like well first of all
they're very similar in terms of the same chain
like same networks you can look at the behavior
and how people are interacting
but you can look at that as
you know as a tech
from a technical standpoint as
an information system like as
a social network
or you know a newspaper or
a database or whichever other lens
you want to take and put over it
and that's part of how by the way like
these AI ideas about
well anything can be looked at as anything
well Bitcoin sort of gave you the
way to think about that around
this time of like 2016
2017 2018
so if you're in Bitcoin around that
time and interacting with the AI on Twitter
via the recommendation system
you are already learning these
types of things that are now
in the mainstream in the form of
gen AI way back then
right and so similarly
like we were getting
we were starting to think
about well can we take those concepts
and can we operationalize them
so that we can create synthetic bitcoins
so that you can go well I want to
I want a New Zealand Bitcoin
with all these properties and everything
and it's very much like the ESG system
behind BlackRock they just run a bunch of GPUs
hold a bunch of capital and then go
they make their synthetic derivative which is like
here is like tree coin
you know tree dollar
right or whatever else
that they might want to incentivize
each week and that sort of like
you know in that COVID kind of period
before chat GPT came out
but where the AI was getting rolled out
and it was all becoming like
extremely hyper capitalized
you had a lot of this very strange
identity capitalist
dynamics going on
because there was a certain amount of money
over like you changing the color
you're here for example
and if you actually know
how GPUs are deployed
on Wall Street how a lot of these
like incentives and financials
like to the degree to which
a US dollar
you know you got real
value in exchange and then you've got speculative
liquid derivatives capital
capital if you understand that
well every time you go do one thing
then if other people see that
then it can go viral on the internet
and you know somebody can spend
like it was like the George Floyd thing
with like a fake $20 note
and then it's like the Domino's meme
you know that turns into
whatever right are you following
dude you blew my mind because
you just made me realize that
Bitcoin is not one of these coins
it's all of them
and what you're saying pretty much is that you can take
a
representation of a derivative
of Hovery 1L
a derivative of all three of them
and each one of them
represents different aspects
of Bitcoin that sit in potential
that can be actualized
and
and yeah you're blowing my mind
because I'm
I'm realizing now that
the hash that goes into
each coin is proportional
to the amount of awareness
that people have regarding that
aspect of Bitcoin
yes so I mean
in a neural network like they call it the attention mechanism right
yes I get it
so 100% the same
like dynamic this is sort of
this is like what money is and how money works
so
but when I say kind of Bitcoin now
it's not really because Bitcoin got
broken up into its constituent parts
so you actually have to
have a certain amount of
technical expertise to know
how can I make a derivative
that glues these things back together again
so that when I spend a little bit of BTC
and a little bit of BSH
they go back together again and like
so you guys are working on that
well so this is like
how I really like
viewed things in 2020
and like late 2019
and 2020 is that you could see this
emerging like computational
data market if you use those lens
you could see the big picture of like what Bitcoin
is and what it was becoming
and it's like a really practical way like
non speculative now of like well
if you want to look at XAI
and like Riot platforms
in Texas like and
and lots of other like and Nvidia and everything
in the same market which they were before
because Nvidia was Ethereum mining
right if you want to just look at the market
now so just a really good
term to describe
what is going on and I would just say
sort of say like hey computational data
market is really just like a collective term
for like
proof of work hashes like you manufacture
those and sell them to the Chinese
cool NFT is great
you like you do some rendering on your laptop
and you put it on the blockchain and that's a
computational thing and you sell it to the Chinese
cool right
and it but the scope of
that you know that scope is like
being increasing there's like
in the sort of like 2022 era
there's a lot of like a lot of people talking about
zero knowledge proofs well the zero knowledge
proof is also sort of like a computational
data product
right and there's a huge
amount of things like the weather report is
a computational data product because they run
the government run supercomputer simulations
right and then they like put it
on the news and you consume it as a media product
so so the actual sort of
scope of potential like
applications and I was sort of working on that
you know before before I was
selling us that was like my
what I the
the speculation we were kind of
kind of running with to say
here's where we think this is going to go to
and if we work on this now in 2020
then by the time 2030
like has come along
this will all have just happened
right and we're sort of halfway
through that and it kind of you know
it's it's started to happen
at this point essentially and if you
at least have that if you
have gone through that period and you knew that back
then then that is
like really practical because it can actually
help you separate like filter out
the signal and the noise right now
and like not get scammed
like Sam Altman is like really bad
and like he doesn't know how to
he doesn't have any way of determining
what's real or not when he's confronted
with some like do I spend a huge amount of money on
some AI project right 100% I agree
like like we were a little bit
ahead of it like we were kind of late
or you say like we were
we were started later then open
AI but before but sort of like
while they were kind of lagging behind
essentially like before they made this like transformers pivot
and I met the open AI
guys like back in sort of 2018
or something and they'll know we're all like
white boarding like how much compute can fit
into the entire universe
you know can you can is in
the entire universe that you could potentially
that you could potentially harness
and you know and and I was like
yeah to mine bitcoins right
and
right and
they were already working with it and video at the time
and
but
I have a question
yep
so I was just going to make a comment on this open AI
so
around this
I think it was
in early 2022
when all the stablecoins were
were blowing up
and there was
sort of like there was
around the time that in videos
I think that there was this
like COVID peak in the market
when the market then the interest rates changed
and like Tesla crashed hard
and Nvidia crashed hard
and everything and this was in the lead up to them
turning off all the GPUs on Ethereum
that
essentially like after they turned off all the GPUs
on Ethereum like a chat GPT came out
and so there was this
very clear shift of
the market as it was running
with like FTX and so forth
to like a very new market where
things were happening behind the scenes where like
GPUs going out there and like starting to run the economy
now like became the economy
in late 2022
and I in the first
two years a bit sort of two years a bit
yeah business like we were all on
Nvidia like we were all
so I was sold on the Nvidia vision of like
we got a new GPUs and Bitcoin and everything
and part of the first two years
the business just like sitting at home in New Zealand
as we like well we didn't get
we weren't out there in market
like delivering products
to customers and so forth
and
and so we just missed out
on that like the chatbots came and like
we weren't doing that at all
we had this like computational data market thing
we were still trying to end like nobody cared because like
they don't know like the language models that you know
they come first
and
but in 2020
in late 2020 the Mac
mini came out like the
sorry Apple Silicon came out the first
the first product
was a development kit
of the Mac mini
and the other things that came out in
2020 was iPhone shipped with
the LiDAR sensor in it
which I view that is like
quite interesting at the time because it's like these
points that
that get picked up think of it like a
like a Bitcoin miner LiDAR scanner
kind of does a similar similar thing
and that you can go like
let's scan lots of points around and like collect
back the feedback collect up the feedback
but
in between the two was the
was the new consoles the Xbox Series X
and the PS5
and they shipped with what's called
computational storage so they
shipped with the SSD and the GPU
already starting
to do this like computational
data
pipelines where the
geometry and the levels and the maps
they would regenerate themselves constantly so
think of it like an ASIC
like an Xbox Series X
in 2020 look to me
like a like an ASIC
for what has
become gen AI but actually it
hasn't become that yet because it doesn't have
persistent storage so
you ask an AI something and it forgets about it
you can't like use your
AI and then like work on one project for
like five years it like forgets
it's like your file system like
resets itself every five minutes right they
haven't figured out how to run the memory
management yet so
in 2022
I think
I like in late 2020 I had
one Mac mini and like the guy
who did his internship on the
Mac mini like he had a great time
and and he already had a job
lined up after his internship or whatever he works
a block now and and he had
an awesome time and then like everyone who's
like doing Linux development and I would
be adamant like we have to buy the shittiest
cheapest like $1,000
you know like PC and video 10
50 boxes from
the PC store like they were
miserable and so like by the time
like late 2021
came around and we had like seven or
eight interns or something that summer
I just bought every on a Mac mini
because I was like you know this is
going to be much more much nicer much
more standardized everyone can have a really good
experience they don't feel like they were fucked over because
they got the you know they picked the short straw
of the of the intern computer
and in the end of that
summer one of the interns
came to me his name is Dylan and he
like walks into the office
like one day and he's just like hey Mark
I ported the
minor I optimize the minor to the
char instructions in the
in the Mac mini
and I had this like
$17,000 Super Micro
server like fold within
video GPUs
and
his optimized because
because Nvidia GPU doesn't have
char instructions in it but an arm
chip does but to until
the Mac mini came along an arm chip was like
a crappy mobile like you know Raspberry Pi
type of thing so although it was good
it still wasn't as as much
and in practice for like giving a certain
capacity and you couldn't like you wouldn't do
your work on it if somebody got given like
a Raspberry Pi on Nvidia I had lots of
those Nvidia armboards they're like this big
I don't know where they are I think somebody took them
some point they were like kind of
worthless to me after the Mac mini
I realized
well you know the Mac mini is good enough to be
a computer to the point that
it's better than an Intel an Intel
chip right and so
you could say like the market didn't really
kind of cotton on to like how
and good how good Nvidia was disrupting
the Intel chip until
2022 but actually
Intel got disrupted
not by Nvidia but by
Apple in 2020
right and
yeah and so Dylan like he comes to me
and I had by this time
this was like not the first company that I was
like working with Nvidia
you know development kits and CUDA and
shit and and there's
there's a there's a meme like anybody who works full
time on on on Nvidia
they're used to running on there like a Buntu
laptop pseudo
apt-get purge
Nvidia dash star
which is like delete every single piece of
Nvidia software from my computer because
it's all broken and not working again and I need
to reinstall it from scratch that's like
a regular development workflow that you always
go through and so I had spent all this
money on these like loud expensive you know
super micro servers and everything and people
having a miserable time on
like g-force cards and
and and and what not
and
and and and and he came and told me that like hey this
thing works
it's faster than the server
and it's like you know
1099 New Zealand
dollars so I I literally just like
did not buy a single new
actually I did buy a couple
for some like 3d people
on and
you know after that I think after that
but but basically that
was the end of ever
I've ever using any Nvidia hardware for anything
anymore because an apple is like
the mortal enemy of Nvidia
but but it was
faster you know it was
more well suited for what
we were doing and then what's interesting
about the Apple Silicon
was that it's a it's a what's
called an APU which is it's a fusion
of a CPU and a GPU
they share the same memory the CPU
uses the GPU memory the GPU uses
CPU memory so whenever you deal with anything
in an Nvidia system you're burning
electricity and you're creating
all this lag and slowness
and the code is all
high complexity because you're having to move
data from the CPU
to the GPU memory constantly back and forth
right and like this is what I did and
you know like he taught me like this
is yeah this is what the orthodox do we
just like make sure all of the memories are like
all unified memory all the time and
like the more I learned about like computer architecture
the more you go like okay yeah yeah
those guys might know what's going on they know
how the computers work and like
and like as a backup like if the computers
like if they keep on breaking then well
like we can just go there and talk to them and then
like the Bitcoin monastery
is entered and guided the way
nice yeah it's like a Mac mini
is like it's a step on the way to the Bitcoin monastery
basically if you if you like really want
to be extremely a power efficient we don't
need a computer at all that you know
that you know how to do this but the difficulty
you know the difficulty goes up so that's
basically what what what happened what we
could see and it like like I said right
that there was a sort of like
era and like 2017
where Bitcoin gave you the ability to
like see what was going on in the market
without like
relying on the mainstream news to like
tell you what state of the art is like they're
telling you what the state of the art was like four or five
years ago when you're seeing anything there right
because being de-risked at that point it's like de-risked
to the point that like like okay billions
of people can know about this and like no harm is gonna
it's gonna come to it whereas like when
anything that's actually like happening right
at this moment you know is is
is much more tumultuous you don't even just
like people knowing about it and talking
about it right and you can see like when there goes
badly like like with COVID
right because
there's like if there's a big
sort of reaction and then like word gets
out then then all of the
second order effects of like trying to
manage the public
like cause much more harm and damage than
of course than than
than the underlying
thing right but if you don't have a secured information
system then then then you really struggle with that
so there is
so so so I'll just like finish that
point basically that there was a sort of like information
system sort of like era with like
Jack Dorsey you know coming back into
Twitter eventually you know Jack Dorsey
leaving Twitter but in this like 2020 period
it was very much just like computational
data market like concept which is you
could see that hey the Nvidia GPU
is about to become the Bitcoin minor
right the Bitcoin that the
the capital market
like forces behind Bitcoin
for like concentrating capital and energy
that's going to
move to and I was working on these like big
Nvidia like supercomputers at the time like
2017 you could not convince
a single data center or enterprise data
center over to put one
Nvidia GPU anywhere near any enterprise
data right so like thinking about
just the transition that
has made since then
it's quite it's quite
significant so that was sort of like the speculation
around this 2020 period
it's all kind of like a general I tried trying
not to like like tell put too many
new ideas out there and I'm still like cleaning up that project
so it's still a good phrase and you
can see like well now you can learn
actually what's going on and maybe
like a little bit of what's happening
because of in the last
four years in the last halving period
the like the meta game
moved from this like social
media critical infrastructure
to the
computational data markets
alright and so we're now in
in the next halving
where you know I wouldn't say like
I'm not sort of like we're not running on
full steam like speculation
but there was this
yeah so I was
making a point about the Mac Mini basically like
at the start of the at the start
of that halving period it was sort of like this
early
contenders of the PS5
and the Xbox Series X
because they were hardware that looked
very close to the ideal
sort of ASIC
if you wanted to
do what at the time
was called computational storage
now it's called Gen AI
if they opened up those platforms
then everybody wouldn't be like running
expensive broken like overpriced
Microsoft Azure and Microsoft Azure would
be out of business because the
Xbox Series X development kit would have like
become the Mac Mini and the
H100 and taken over the whole market
Xbox Series X and the PlayStation
they're locked down platforms
literally everybody forgot those consoles even
existed in the last halving
because they were so caught up in all these other
like you know real-time events
like x.com you know
Twitter scrolling every day with all the events
Xbox entertainment like
really really bad
in comparison it's like
they may have had good at great hardware
but everybody at Microsoft
was off playing the Nvidia AI game
on Azure
and so I recognized like hey
this Mac Mini thing not only is
already just faster at doing all the stuff that I want
but all the other GPU
algorithms that we wanted to run over lots of memory
you didn't have to deal
with this moving data around
and having like two you know
in order to have the data in the host
you had to load the data into your CPU memory
before you can load it into GPU memory
which means you have to have like for every one
gigabyte of GPU memory you need to have
you need to have also another gigabyte of CPU memory
essentially right
because on a PC
you can't read data like the Xbox does
where it reads it straight off the SSD
into the GPU and even to do that on Xbox
it's a special graphics API
so you have to like load it into
system RAM and then copy it into your
GPU. Now the PS5
is an APU and both
of these hardware platforms are from
AMD
on the PS5
it's how they did it
without like being Microsoft and making DirectX
the PS5
operating system is a BSD
operating system so it's actually
quite similar to macOS
it's like one of these AMD
APU chips
that have it's kind of like
how the Intel laptops they come
with a little integrated GPU
but the AMD one is like a real GPU
instead of a crappy broken knockoff
so when Apple when the Mac mini
when Apple Silicon launched
that was Apple
not just shifting off of Intel
but they also had the best
GPUs you know in the industry
full control like
driver stack of their own
right like massive hyper commodity
market
and exactly the form factor
for the rest of the device and it had a neural engine in there
right so already had an AI
ASIC in there alongside the
char instructions and everything we didn't learn later
about the thunderbolt thing
and that was just like you know
a massive cherry on
on on on top and
and sort of that really only came about
maybe like not
not quite like 12 months but maybe like nine months
after that we kind of like realize
that and that had pretty significant
implications and like you know our business plan
we ended up with like a hardware
prototype form factor where it says when
we started on just the pure computational data
data markets view that was like very much
Bitcoin centric looking at the information
and the behaviors and the attention
and the market and then
trying to work out like how you build
something that takes advantage
of that so that you know essentially like
run a Bitcoin miner that that also captures
some of that some of that value right
and yeah
and yeah so I think you're going to
ask something before
well yeah in terms of a security
securing the information on these
networks I know for a while there
you guys were working with
using proof of work as a signaling
mechanism is that something you guys
are still working on
that's what we're working on but way to think about
it is like any so
like all computing information
and communication is all signaling okay
yes all the universe
around us is all like encoding and signals
so
so although we tested that sort of like
from the advertising we're like yeah okay
our business model is going to be advertising got it
great like I tested
that like briefly quickly see like
hey that thing that we like
sort of like just did at Andrew DeSantis house in 2018
love once and it was kind of crazy and then
like I'd forgot about it for a year
maybe before we like you raise lots
of money and high lots of people we should sort of like just double
check that that is actually
like a technical like reproducible like
rational thing that if we do that again can do
somebody but react to it the same
way that they did then but like maybe at a
micro scale and it seemed to go
pretty good we had a bunch of people like
go to 28.com copy paste
hashes onto twitch which
existed at this point which like a year
before you know we were doing all this stuff
on Twitter but but then a year afterwards
like the guys at
Urban Arson and so forth
they'd like built and and Urban Arson
he was actually at in Mississippi
for a bit too when we found that hash
you know he went off from that
like six months later that they'd found
Twitch so when I was sort of like you know
coming back to the community and saying like hey
you know we're going to go and explore these ideas
I sort of like hashed a bunch of stuff on my laptop
posted on 2180.com and sort of like
messaged everybody's like hey can you copy paste one of those
things and pull on Bitcoin and we just did it
we did it on Twitch right but so today
you can go back on
the BSV chain
you know you could also anchor things
with open time Samsung to BTC as well
I think like majority of all that
like BSV
like you know I had the infrastructure
but you can go back and so people
can use that as proof of like yeah I was
a 2180 affiliate like years before
there was any anything that looked like a
tick you know on the social network
right that's part of the reason
why we could see what was going
on there when that happened too
so I see that there is
a lot of excitement
building around a 2180
and
your emphasis
of
what we've always
dubbed the Bitcoin index right
and creating an understanding
Bitcoin and
arguably all of crypto
within the lens of
of
being able to
serve
the computational data market
through
what each of these blockchains
offer I want to bring
to mind what
Dean Little has been working on
with Project Zeus
where he has essentially
created an SPV node
of the Bitcoin protocol
on Solana
what are your thoughts on that
because a lot of people are not talking
about that and I think that there's
there's something there that is very special
that people are missing
and I think it has to do
with the fact that
Solana is now giving
Bitcoin
abilities, BTC abilities
that although costly
would not have otherwise
do you have any thoughts
on that project and
do you guys see yourselves working with that
in any ways with Solana
I mean
it's essentially a Bitcoin project right because he's just
making Bitcoin run on another
platform
what's interesting about Solana
and Solana
it's an architecture that comes from
the Spanner database at Google
with an algorithm called TrueTime
so they're using
Shart256 as a
time stamping mechanism
not just for big dumb slow time stamping
of you have a document and you want to prove
that that exists but real time
information
so Dean going and doing that
is really interesting
because you can now start to
have Bitcoin
networks and Bitcoin payment channels
and Bitcoin signatures
which they share the same
hashing algorithm
but they also share the same
key algorithm
so almost like Solana
is one of the closest
technologies out there
that is
very much compatible
with Bitcoin and that's why I think
the simplicity of it is part of the reason why
they're like hey let's make
one that goes really fast and it's really big right
interestingly Solana is like
original pitch
was to make that run on the GPU
and these were like
CUDA programmers from Facebook
and Google and things like that
I'm still pretty sure
that like the only Solana
GPU code that sort of like plausibly
is out there
somewhere is like for keys
or something so
they basically kind of like
never got
that to happen but there was a lot of
like that design
that
like in the first couple of years
of this project when we were doing a lot more
like Bitcoin stuff
and it really kind of became a lot more
like AI focused so like ways
of encoding information as opposed
to ways of like
in private and like
under your own control versus
these sort of like more public data markets
we found really quickly that
we don't have the infrastructure
and the tooling and the scale to like
to make that safe
and that's sort of one of the things
that you would see from the big AI labs as well
they can only kind of like make that safe because
well it also
it doesn't have any memory like you can't go viral
in a language model
but if they made
like a social network where everybody
was generating things together then
that would get way too hard
to handle like way too quickly
and only Elon, Elon is the only guy
who really has that
he's the only guy who's like
not actively like
the number two is Zuck
but Zuck is sort of
on the Jack Dorsey model of like
still censoring lots of the information
and they've kind of like intentionally made
their models crappy
and they just have like sort of like they just run
the open source one
whereas Elon is running
a state-of-the-art model
on Twitter and then it's basically
you know a massive free-for-all
he's not out there you know like
really controlling the platform
like like like Dorsey Twitter
used to
so I want to switch gears a little bit
and kind of go back
in terms of infrastructure and I want to talk about
something that a lot of people in crypto don't know about
which is Erbit
could you explain real quick
what Erbit is, what that project
has been proposing
and where is Erbit?
Is Erbit something that has
still has any legs as an ecosystem?
What's going on with Erbit?
Well like you know how I said there was this sort of like
2016 to 2020
you know halving error thing around social networks
they're sort of just like a legacy project
from that era when like
the people are like well it can be
like iCloud and
Twitter. We could put iCloud
and Twitter together if we like
use that blockchain stuff somehow
and actually they were around for a long time
and they had like a really
great like technical
capacity they're like you know a software
operating systems computing company
but
they're sort of them going and sort of like
becoming an Ethereum NFT
you know like made their whole project
very confusing and it was unfortunate
because they went from
sort of this like really kind of
cultish esoteric like
make the difficulty level up this high
so that we can like work on something really ambitious
and
it eventually just got diluted
you know
that esoteric thing that
was sort of like protecting the value
it just like diluted the value
until it's sort of
you know back
to and even Curtis like
is you know he's like
he's kind of like the only guy working on it now
right and it's similar like
he was caught up in like the similar kind of wave
that well we may have been like trying to do
the computational data markets thing like
and didn't know that that but then AI happened
and we're like oh shit like
we probably should have known about that
then you know like it's just me
sort of like
piecing the
work together from the last having up
back again until we really kind of like
ready to like make any new
speculation on what might happen
but there's still lots of ideas and
and things
that are not in the market that like
you know I still have in our archives
that if that can be put in a form
that like you know that you can have
on your on your desk
that you can kind of like do the same thing
in the mainstream
like I was saying with chat GPT
that if like that technology that you know
Bitcoin people had in like 2020 to
2024 if a little bit of that
can be made accessible you know by
the end of this cycle to
the to the mainstream market then
like then then things are pretty
good so a bit is very similar
you know there was a lot of like I went
to them in like late 2019 so like before
the in San Francisco so like before
the halving and I was like let's host
her bits and payment channels like we can do
businesses and everything and the guy
who
of mine who are you know like
was
an engineer there at Sloan in San
Francisco at the time working on her bit
you know he really like
you know put me in front of the two guys
who are running it and I said like hey all this
like social network like fake operating
system kind of stuff is like kind of lame
but like hey that technology you have is
like we could probably make a lot of money out
of it if we actually like run big
businesses and then sort of
like you know that project was largely
like destabilized by COVID stuff in the same
way as everybody else but
but in 2020
Logan Alan you know he went off
and started the first
urban company and now there
are actually like you know a dozen
or more urban companies
it's still a bear market so
they've been they've been a bubble
of like boom of urban companies and then like
a bunch of them go out of business
right including Sloan doesn't
really do it anymore they like made a whole foundation
in things and it's like Curtis Yavin's
job now again
but
he now has
he's on the sort of like
his second business which is
much more of like an overlap
between the data markets
like computational data markets idea
and what it was doing
and capabilities that like
are still really interesting about their
underlying technology and so that's called
the company is called Zorp
Zorp I wanted to ask you about Zorp next
yes but the project
is knock chain so he's trying
to make a Solana killer
that sort of like uses a bit of proof
of work uses a bit of this kind of like
you know like
ZKP
compute contracts
logic stuff and find
a way to plug them together
and there's a really like good complement
between his like zero knowledge
proof technology and
my hyperdimensional proof of work
system
yeah
okay so for a lot of people
let me just break this down more in layman's terms
for so there's this
overall idea
that has
become a reality
with the infrastructure that we have
and this idea is that we don't no longer
really need these giant
server farms to be the intermediaries
between
between each other when it comes to
sharing our information
that the
computers that are readily
available to us the public
have
within them the constitutive
makeup that allows
us to deal with each other person
to person P2P
so
Erbit has been aiming
for that world view
and it's aiming for that infrastructure
so it's kind of like having a decentralized
P2P nature to
to computing infrastructure
and correct me
from wrong but pretty much 2028
is also aiming at that correct
yeah they're related
but the thing I would make
a point of is that Ethereum became
an NFT on Ethereum
Erbit became an NFT on Ethereum
so it was a startup I think from
2010 or something they even like
applied to Way Combinator
it was just a computing
startup in San Francisco
right like Erbit was
like the name of their operating system that they
were building the company was
called Tlaun and eventually
they sort of like it was around
2016 all of the
you know like Andreessen it was like
around the time of this 21 stuff
everybody who was doing
anything adjacent to decentralized
computing their VCs
or you know tap them on the
shoulder and said you need to go make a coin
if you want to keep getting funded
and so that happened to them and it largely
like diluted
it took that
like really
you really needed to be like a
Curtis Yavin Nazi sort of
mentality to
make sure that nobody
comes along and just like inserts a little bit of
JavaScript all right
so largely they're
kind of like the remnant
there's the sort of remnant of like well
they had a token but then all of
the all of the speculative value
has been squeezed out of it and
there's nothing left so now that there's
nothing left there rather than
like having to rationalize
Erbit with
JavaScript running on Kubernetes on
Google Cloud and wasn't this supposed to be a thing
that ran on an Intel Nook thing under my
couch you can just be like oh
just put it on it like their
business incentive is that they don't have
any money to like build a big complicated hosting
thing or like people do those businesses anymore
so you remove this like
like derivatives capital
like stuff of like the
GPUs behind Wall Street are telling you to
give them you know they're telling you it's like every
social network is just buying your data
from you for zero dollars
right and then renting it back
to you right so
the same thing like happens with all of these
all these projects the moment that you tokenize
something what you what
you thought your project was
which might have been like to make
a compute know that it's your personal server and it
runs all your things that like run on our cloud
like this but remove the financial
capital from it and you own it well
actually now that we converted
into token representation
your that physical
thing has just been bought by the market
and that's what's happened to Bitcoin so like
Bitcoin is now like
and a dollar
asset it's a dollar derivative
right like like it's a
thing that you you know you call
up your your
401k guy
and be like can you buy me some
micro strategy so that I can
get at the Bitcoin right and then
by that time they've like you know
they've they've like
added a bunch of zeros to it
on the wrong end
so with with projects like
Urban you can sort of track this life cycle
which is like okay well
there was a speculative
capital injection
and it like inflates the
shit out of it through derivatives
and speculation and you're thinking about and it
increases the complexity right and we had a lot
of that even though I was like terrified
of venture capital we did raise from investors
and that like you know you
you people hype it up
to the nth degree like 10 to 100
times more than is really suitable
for what you've got and then you don't
only have to deal with like
explaining what you've got what you're doing
but then you also have to deal with like
people asking you know 21
other questions around all of the
second-order effect implications of it
and you know we had that from like day one
so so so I was or
it was already something we're like
speak we're like you would you'd kind of
like get burnt out trying to
trying to speculate over and see the
big picture because it would be it would
you know you would just be it's like
if you had it had a torch and you're like
in an abandoned warehouse and then you
like point it in the corner and there's like 500
spiders and then like you just get
overwhelmed instantly by the amount of
complexity and then like run off
away from things I don't know
if there's a good analogy but like it's such
an instant complexity
that like you immediately can't
you're overwhelmed with it and
you can't and you can't deal with it
so that speculative capital injection
the people who are
the best at this
not in video actually
because in video has had
and continues to have a whole bunch
of execution risk now from
the fact that they're priced according to their potential
right and that
then can then being able
to maintain a stable
like stock price asset
price based on that speculative
value is really difficult because
they could just have one bad run
at TSMC which they have had
right and it can mess
with the whole project so micro
strategy and comparison
like they're like cool we don't have any execution
risk because we don't do anything
I'm just going to buy bitcoins and hold on to them
buy my stock because I'll hold on to bitcoins and
it's like you know your test over like
well what's the likelihood that he's going to run away
with the multi-sig and like well at least
because it's one dude as opposed to all of this
shit that like Sam Bankman freed it
that like well
proportionally you know we trust him more than
Sam Bankman freed and we trust him more than Jensen Huang
right and there's all these
new AI, Solana
meme coin things like people
experimentally trying to do that like there's
a project called AI 16Z
that basically they were trying to be
like the next one passed
they're trying to do the
massive reflex
of speculative capital growth
of AI agents
and like tokenizing AI agents
and getting them all to invest in each other
and do that and they like
came out of nowhere and that
they're still around in like an interesting project
but it's kind of like the urban thing
but they like speed ran it
like they did in like
six weeks or something
what takes like a DFINITY
or Solana or a urban
or anything like like five or six years
to be able to do
and part of the reason that they could do that
was that they were just leveraging the state of the art
of pump fun
and dow's fun like
you know like speculative meme market
like big blocks on Solana right
you couldn't have done that without
something
like a big blocks and so but
that game hasn't
been sort of answered it's sort of like
they're already playing how do we
generate lots of dollars really quickly
nothing has been done at the
overall market level to like take
the speculative capital industry
which all of Bitcoin and all of the forks
and every other like new startup project
is all even like
XAI stuff and language models and all this
type of thing it's all
speculative capital that's being printed
that nobody has any clue
how Masayoshi San is gonna like make
back five hundred billion dollars
from
you know from like it's not really
that it's like actually ten but it is
it is a significant data center site
that's being built out in Texas
nobody has any he'll probably be dead
by the time he needs to pay it back right
but there's enough
urgency in the actual sort of like
systemic risk level of
the top of the market where
this capital needs to be going to these things
right now because if it doesn't go into
like hard assets that are relatively
that have this like
ability to resist
inflation like it's
it's hard to clone an NVIDIA
GPU so therefore if you have a bunch
of money in the economy and everything else
is gonna get like wiped out by AI and Bitcoin
and like the next and this halving too
then
it's really unclear like we should put your money
like well if it's not going into NVIDIA
GPUs and you don't have that capability then
like we're already at the sort of like post
AI stage of just buying gold
but putting a bunch of money and gold
doesn't really help anything either it just sort
of and gold is still treated like
a dollar asset right
like the reason for buying gold is
it's gonna make you a lot of dollars and then you're gonna sell it
not because
you are everybody is really like
there's no like
there's no people aren't
going out there and like starting to
trade in gold
right like your supermarket isn't
accepting gold in big markets
where people are buying a lot of gold like Wall
Street like in Wall Street they're not
they're not trading a gold they're not using gold
as money they're just using it as
one of these like speculative assets right
so it's really like
people say like BTC is digital gold
but it's actually the other
way around where gold is
now physical Bitcoin
and so I'm really interested in
in what is this overlap
what does it mean to have a physical Bitcoin
and
can we make one that does that other
that computational data markets thing that I
talked about and that was where we landed on
which is that we were able to massively
reduce all of our we were able
to make it such that you could
not speculatively
amplify you could not
turn twenty one eight into a
Kubernetes thing
if you came along with a bunch of inch capital
money there's no way to turn
it to to we
because we went off of the solar and video
model right
and and so the Mac
mini
yeah because it can do
Bitcoin because I can have a phone call
and we can generate information on it
well
you know it's a it's a physical
Bitcoin look it's like shaped like that
right so the new one
the new one is his shrunk
so it's had a halving so the new one is
about this big
and we had this whole meme of like
you know the power to you have to turn
upside down well on the M4 Mac mini
like the power button is on the bottom
so it's really funny you know I have
the old model Apple that like
you know go get my Mac mini and show it off
to there's I don't know if you see
but the like the whole back wall
here is yeah I see it like
for the for Mac mini is here
okay I'm trying to so we're going to try
to like we're going to try to fill it up
fill it up to here right so I love it
and then but that's around like
you know this idea we had this notion
of well what is this
informational computational capacity
of like when you have an AI processor
and you know and you have
proof of work essentially right and
the Mac mini is like smallest little unit
of like a little bit of AI
and a little bit of Shah
and it's the most computer
per dollar you know it's an actual computer
so it's really good commodity it's like
massively mass produced
everybody
you know pretty much everybody has a
Mac mini like in some cupboard somewhere
and so they can actually like
have the experience of like
being in the network without actually
likely needing to go out and
make any purchase
right so they can immediately
have this experience but it
represents if we can shift Bitcoin
from sort of like
way under crap like
under resourced
Raspberry Pi and then actually they got
all sold out in the last half and two and then
like a bit over the top like crazy
GPU thing that like doesn't actually
have display port they're taking the display
ports off them and they don't have Shah
instructions and everything and you can't put a mouse and keyboard
in it you have to build it by all this like
crappy expensive like
value ads like from super micro
and stuff to be able to extract the value from
the GPU and to be able to get the minimum
well Mac mini is sort of like the
minimum unit of
of you know computational
data right the NVIDIA use a
term of a data processing unit
for the network controller that's much closer
to like how we use it because we're
not trying to like use it to do big massive simulations
we're just trying to use it to do
really good efficient fast indexing
and association and then like you bring the
intelligence to
to the user right so but
but what I'm fascinated with
is like what's going to happen
you know what else might go
in the starter kit what else might go
in the basket of goods
that you know at the moment we
think that that if everybody
just does this and we don't need to like
add anything else into the kit that would
like increase the price if we sort of
like if it's if it's clear that it's that
that that as long
as you have like one nose then
then then you can get the
you know move away then that keeps the
entry point that keeps the cost of
entry and I'm not talking about onboarding
in terms of like buying bitcoins so that
then you sell it and then use services because
there are no services right
but the absolute minimum
is that you need a computer
that can sign
transactions but not just like sign
a transaction because there's no one that's just like
you go out in the world and then you interact with someone
you also need yes you might have
a Bitcoin wallet which just use
the computer for it's fine
it's you can trust Apple's
you can trust the Apple hardware more than
you can trust the Bitcoin wallet even though it's
cure there's been lots of leaks
so if that was
the minimum that you want to sell everything
you know all of your possessions and all you
do is Bitcoin then you're still probably at least
going to need like a Mac money and
a mouse and like mouse and keyboard and something
probably right but then
so yeah
so that's sort of like the project at the moment but
there's a potential
that hey like we've had one halving
well maybe in
the next halving
then the Mac money is this big
right and then maybe
maybe halving after that
it's the size which they already make
Apple computers the size of your watch
that maybe it's this big
and at that point
you know you start to just
go hey that's a Bitcoin what do we call
these things we call them bitcoins because
they're just computers that like have a 5
on it you know it's like an M4
that's the other funny thing about
Apple is like
monetary money money supply
like derivatives I called like
you know like M1 and M2
and M3 and M4 and so in 2020
when the when the computational
data market you know like came as like
the M1 came out and then the M2
and M3 and M4 and then we're going to be to
we've got entire new levels of derivative
you know computational capital of like
M8s and M9s and M10s right
and AI guys they're really struggling with this
at the moment because they have like
crazy names for their products like
GPT401 Pro 3
Mini 17
beta right
and
it's like you know
you get to the iPhone whatever
and the naming scheme
doesn't work so we sort of
like just picked really early like
this is our number we're just going to stick with it
right and it's like an AI model
they get software updates right we're still at the
kind of like GPT going from like GPT1
to GPT2 to GPT3
maybe we get coherence by
by middle of next year
then like people go ah like they're doing
the computational data market like that's
you know but the open AI guys
had the same kind of struggle
it was like seven years from when they were founded
to when they shipped
GPT and that
and that product actually sort of like
crossed over the threshold of being
something that you know anyone
on their laptop can interact with it
and understand what they're dealing with
whereas it was like you know gobbledygook
nonsense
and all of the early periods
of that and so we had the same sort of
struggles right
yep
okay so
let me try to
synthesize
with the overall pain
problems and solutions that you're offering
the market here
what I see is that you
underlying
the most important
currency
is information
even in your
mindset it seems to be even more important
than the dollar
fiat it's really
information and how to
accurately
categorize
what information is more
valuable
over other information
and it seems to me like you identify
within the market an overall
disconnect between
the currency that we use
and we speculate with including
dollars and that you see
a deeper level
area of currency
of exchange which is information
itself it is data
itself and I see that you
have identified a huge problem in the world
that you've seen okay
well bitcoin is not just
a coin
but it's also bit and it's bit coin
it is the coin
of the internet it is the
technology that allows us to
properly
price
information
and that the pricing system
of information is in itself
a very important
way of identifying
it's an important
message of information itself
the pricing system is a very important
message
to the world as to how things are
valued
you see data as
rightfully so
as the most
use
asset that at the same time
does not have
and I can't find a better term for it
does not have a true free market
that is
separate from a couple
entities manipulating it
and having an
advantage over the rest
in a sense
what I see you doing is
freeing the
working to free the market
by emphasizing the bit
aspect of bitcoin
where you are now
taking a stance which is
a free stance away from bitcoin itself
understanding that bitcoin
is expressed in three main
ways BSV, BCH
and BTC
and that you are also open to
other networks like
knock chain for example
where we could
use these blockchains
as a means of
having better coordination
in the market in terms
of
spending energy
and
having a
better price
signals regarding data
in an open free market environment
is this pretty much the
overall picture here
have I been able to really capture
what it is that the challenge
is here
mostly I just wouldn't say
that I'm
doing the free market thing
that's just what bitcoins
that's a long
time ago
but it's also
been a speculative asset
that's based on subsidies
so what bitcoin is
or might become has the same
urban problem of
it went and consumed
a bunch of capital and
hasn't delivered yet
in that transition
but it does do this base
infrastructure of creating
this amazing open internet
global free market
right so in that place
there's like lots of people who go online
who are like hey can you give me
$30 billion to build a really big
computer
and then they just like
they sell to the market
like hey here's a big thing
of like can you give me the money
and then whatever words that they say
to the internet that gets them to give them the money
like that's where it goes because a free market
there's all this free capital floating out there
free energy and it's going to find somewhere to go
and like people got to say the right words
right but notice how
like in your thing you're saying like well you know
what's it's not just about the information
but it's about value and so
well what is XAI worth or what is
open AI what is AI in general
with people don't know it's either
with infinite dollars or it's worth nothing
well that's just exactly what they said about bitcoin
right and it's not with infinite
dollars and it's also not worth nothing
right but if you had good
the information
about bitcoin that existed in
2010
that didn't have price did it but it was really
valuable now there's
information that's around today
that like if you don't just buy
like the free advertising
like if you're not on the free tier of the internet
of like thinking that Sam Altman
is doing anything interesting
right
then
which most of the
world economy doesn't run on like
free internet information
you know on social networks
and stuff it runs on like real companies
that have intellectual property and that have
nondisclosure agreements and that they
don't put their top secret files like
on Amazon they like
they probably don't even put them on the computer
right
so there is this also
this free market for information
what there isn't is like
a price
there isn't like a consensus
over that price right
part of the reason that like bitcoin got
all these different ways
is because it was so good
at that and it just like was a
massive huge target like hey whoever
can come to this huge pool of energy
and capital like
all you have to do is run off
run off with a few
you know like if there's like some
huge foot knocks of like unguarded
gold and then like the doors left
open well you don't have to like steal
the whole thing but like you know
after a few couple of years
of like people coming in and like running off with
3 bars then a guy he like finds a bulldozer
he's like well I'm going to come in
and I'm going to load up all my trucks right
and can you really blame them for that like
well maybe we should have like put more
investment in defending that
like the but
and what bitcoin is
to get started it's just subsidies
so it is just this hey everybody
take all your speculative hopes
and dreams and capital and like lock
them all up in this thing and then like
thank you for sending me all your hopes
and dreams and free capital I'll like
I'll sell at the top thank you very much
and you know and like
whoever not
Satoshi necessarily but I'm pretty sure
like anybody who was around in those early days
like you're never going to have them
anymore because they don't have
really have any reason to
right yep so it's about
it's about price and information
and what bitcoin represents
isn't like what the infrastructure
was at the time it was
the information about what was going on
in the world and what and
and it carried the cryptographic
algorithm because of the properties
of that cryptography
that carried with it certain
capacity and so
all of that today
essentially you have like a little bit of transaction
processing but it's not very good
the nodes network plus
the base load of the
cryptography if you know how
to make use of that cryptography
it's an enormously
subsidized you know infrastructure
capacity
that that that you can
use to to build secure
information systems right but you can also
hurt yourself with it so it's like
you know there's a reason that Michael
Saylor is kind of doing it because
you know people can see
they can trust their their broker and
they're paying a bunch of like important money people
so that well if
they lose all their money then so did all of the
other people that have their retirement savings
you know like invested in Michael Saylor
right and then people can
put trust in a
in a specific
person when they do that too
so there's been many different approaches
to to market in bitcoin
and each one can be
highlighted by
appealing to a
an aspect of
human desire and
and use case
utility
found within the bitcoin
architecture I'd say that the
the BTC approach
to market was appealing to
and still appeals to the lowest common denominator of
you actually do nothing
with this you just hold it
and it goes up in price because
you just speculate on it and with
the idea of it being digital gold
with its monetary properties
that justify being digital gold
it's it's a it's it's an
asset that you can just hold
and store value
you had what it is right it's like it's
if you were convinced by that at some point you actually
just start buying physical gold
yeah correct
or complement it
right just see it along with
with gold here is BTC right
no because like the
entirety there's all this extra overhead
and risks taken from the tokenization
that if you really
you know risk averse
then you'd buy
you just end up buying the real thing so
Bitcoin the BTC like digital to
gold narrative has been an amazing
advertisement for physical because
it's taught more people in the world it you know
it's even to the point that like Ron
Paul might get to like you know in the Fed now
yeah
in the Fed yes yes
yeah yeah and
and that was like 2008 like right before the
creation of Bitcoin
so
but the question then
is if you remove that if you did that
you're like no I have physical gold thank you
I'm looking for you know these
other properties of money like I can't
spend gold on the internet
right
or like I'm looking to you know account
for a little tiny you know infinitesimal
or floating point unit things
but you know
gold doesn't go that small
right so
you know you don't just necessarily like
only hold gold you have a home and you have
you know like assets and things right
and so there is the existence of
digital technologies and there's this
like Bitcoin part of it
can we turn
that from the speculative subsidy token
thing that just people treat as an actual
just way to make dollars right
and it's kind of out of ideas like
I said with the urban thing like
Bitcoin has been like
all of the ideas are already on
Bitcoin talk in like 2012
there is no new information like being
produced by Bitcoin
you know like it's all gotten
trained it's all in AI models you can
just go to that and and it's all
it's all there right so
I say that they've tried to
create a
amnesia about these
these very important and other aspects
of Bitcoin
so that it's almost I wouldn't
look at it as like a conspiracy sort of thing
of people sitting in a room getting hallowed take out that
it's really just people on the free market going like
I'm me and they're my enemy and then there's
lots of these battles that happen all the time
the collective like forgetting
is I view it as a
technological thing because the GPU doesn't
have any persistent memory on it
if a GPU you know like had a
blockchain file system with an SSD
in there then
it wouldn't have that problem they would just remember everything
but it's a technical challenge
for them to do for them
to do that but then there's also the fact that like
information is valuable
so you're not going to give it away so somebody has to come
and like knock on your door and pay you from it
there is a huge information
market of people constantly selling information
for money but there isn't like
an advertising search index that you can
go and like look up people for who's going to tell you
something right because it's a little bit
in conflict with like how the
20th century world
is kind of like still working
but on Bitcoin time scales
you just go forward 10 years like all that's
you know that's already being solved by pump
fun because they just like the moment
that I saw this video I think it was during
the election somebody was speaking
and literally like faster than
the transcription shows
on on the TV feed
of like the I
can't remember what the clip was but I think
it was Trump faster than
like Trump was speaking the words
are showing up on the pump fun like new
feed so and I and then
and then the TV signal is even delayed
so like the new word is coming
on the pump fun like on the internet
screen before you even see it
on CNN well right
and so that market is already and it's
and it's being like you know tokenized
into things on Solana there isn't like
a way to filter the Solana feed but
like you know there's a lot of like twitch
ideas that that everybody
was playing around in 2020 which well
that's there on that's there on
Solana right now was like pump fun
is like crypto 4chan right
and 4chan is always like
as well we can store
data on Solana like you can on a
BSV though that's like
when it doesn't really matter because
when you're looking for things that are like
really high real time
mm-hmm it doesn't matter it's stored on the pump
fun website people don't give a shit about like
some theoretical like technicality behind
the scenes they care about well like getting
information into your into your eyeballs
as soon as possible like
Twitter yeah it stores
stuff kind of like but you can't
search it very well so it's like sort of a
little bit a little bit in between right but
it has all of the audience it
doesn't matter you could like great just
on your hard drive but you're still going to
post it on Twitter and distribute it and same
thing for pump fun like you might get
a few little you know people it's like
the reddit new feed there might be like
12 people that see your thing on pump fun
but you have all these capabilities
and then just go on Twitter we have the
mass audience and then you and then people
promote them there so Elon
the reason that you know he's like
king of the world at the moment it's because
he figured out how to monetize that like
there were all these people you know like
squeezing Twitter drive for all of its
all of its value until it
basically went out of business and he was
the guy who was going to be the worst hard at it and then
miraculously he managed to pivot it
and turned it from losing money into making
money and the valuation went up back up to
44 billion again and the advertisers
came back okay
see now now we're talking about
something you and I agree which is
using Bitcoin for these things
that most people don't
don't yeah I get to under
I see most people are yet to
I know you said that it's
still there in the Bitcoin talk forums in 2012
like that we can have models
like spit out that information for everyone
want to learn right now but
there's still a
mindset that has forgotten
about what Bitcoin is truly capable of
where do you see Bitcoin cash in this because
Bitcoin cash has this idea that
Bitcoin was meant to
have you spent coffee down the street
whereas for me yes that's
part of it I can do that but
that really doesn't work for me. Well now none of the Bitcoins are
relevant because Bitcoin itself
has been replaced with this computational data market
so what people care about is not Bitcoin
but MicroStrategy what's happening with MicroStrategy price
what's happening with the Nvidia price
what's happening with Elon Musk and Trump
and everything and that level event and Doge
right and think about
before well Doge was like an altcoin
that's less
that has less speculative value
that doesn't like it doesn't have Doge.com
anymore essentially right
it doesn't carry enough like
extra speculative
Mimetic value
and just being
like coin fork
with a funny picture on it
or it's like in 2014
like there was like
not coin easy
what was it, Kanye coin or something
there was like a Kanye coin and he like sued them
and tried to shut it down and everything
and then like last month he sold his Twitter account
to like some Solana meme coin
people Trump has a meme coin and everything right
so
so this
this new market of like
computation and attention
and converting it into capital
in 2020 it was the GameStop thing
the GameStop thing was really like
the proper
kind of like that was like the pump fund of Reddit
right
that was like taking all of this like
and the original
Trump thing in like 2016 was very much like this as well
right and like Martin Schrelle
he was like the
Beth Jezos Iac
dude of the time
and like Hillary Clinton and stuff like that
and all this like computational capital
that is what Bitcoin is like Twitter
Bitcoin Twitter
is that actual value that
sort of on a real time
every day basis that if you come in
and you're like a DGN
doing work in the crypto market
Twitter is Bitcoin
like for all intents and purposes
it is the network that is
connecting everybody
and it's where people are putting
you know human capital in
and they're getting human capital out
so the reason that Elon is sort of like
seems to be in this magical new position
is because he is sort of like
the first of the new Zuckerbergs
he's like not like
Mark Zuckerberg which was sort of
like set up all these
feudalism
sort of things but like now that
all that system has been done and we're now
like going into digital economy
like Dorsey was kind of
like the last of them right like Dorsey
Twitter to Elon Musk Twitter Elon Musk
literally turned from like an electric car
subsidy farmer to
this like mega risk
management you know
like put out all the fires
everywhere everywhere all the time and so
he is like the king Bitcoin miner at the
moment and the reason that he can do
that is he doesn't fucking say Bitcoin
because there are all these other
like things that need to be done
that yes that risk may
may also
be speculative
but some of it is not going to be
and if nobody can do anything
then then nothing is
going to get done right so he was able
to sort of like create
conserve as much of his own
human capital that
he could go put out fires and
the more he kept on putting out fires
the more he becomes like
the emergency
emergency service on the internet
you know TV show that
you're watching run around
right but that was really like
a part of my subject
you're right you're right
at a
very hot at what
Bitcoin should be doing yes you're right
even if he doesn't realize this is what he's doing but the
facts that he is
if he doesn't like solve whatever
problem like Bitcoin
is putting right in front of him
which is this reorganization
of all of the capital and attention
through computing energy and everything in the world
he's just going to be
like the next guy
to be taken out
you know and so whoever
whoever can
can fight that off the best
it's like a difficulty
adjustment Bitcoin mining is like
you know if you get behind
then you're out of the race like you have to
you have to continuously like keep up
and build momentum right
and there was a really high risk
around you know in like early
2023 when he was coming into
Twitter and it could have gone either way
there's a really high risk that like Tesla could
have been
like Lehman Brothers
right
that you could have had
all that collapse and that's why I think
you saw a lot of the US political thing like
very sort of
hurriedly everybody you know like
somebody tapped Mark Zuckerberg on the shoulder
and said like you need to put on a gold chain
yeah
right and
I think it's because
things came that close
to you know like
if Elon ended up as like a Sam Bankman freed
type of thing where his business
is just like blown up in Boston
you know one minute and it's
gone the next and it's funny because
with the Sam Bankman free thing like they have a lot of money there
they invest in an enthropic if they didn't
like succumb to that pressure at the time
you know they could be you could be doing
very well he would be like
you know you'd have a certain Elon and Sam
Sam Altman you'd have Sam Bankman freed
and Sam Altman and like enthropic
open AI like beef going
on yeah
Bitcoin is now
in so what you're
see I try to
understand what you
you guys the whole
218 movement
the Bitcoin Monasteries movement
what you guys
I constantly try to understand
what you guys are saying and I think I do a good job
at understand what you guys are
explaining in your own words
using different symbols
language craft like you guys are creating
a symbolic language
and concepts
that
shine light to
aspects
of the world that
we're in now which is one
where Bitcoin
is the system of government
of government
and it
takes a moment to wrap your mind around that
people sort of think
that we're the only ones that doing it but that's just because
we're sort of positioned
in the information environment that people know about us
when people are exposed to us
they're probably not exposed to the other people
that also do this but like I said with Elon
like he's a main character
he's the biggest guy who's like playing this game
and he's solving
the problems like
of the same kind
but at such a completely
different scale in order of magnitude
and there's like way more
you know capital tied up in it
right
Jensen is sort of like a weird one because he was sort of like
literally mining Ethereum
and now he's just kind of like the new
Vitalik Buterin he's like the sort of like
number two next to Elon
and if you realize that he's actually just Vitalik Buterin
then
it helps you understand like well okay this is
everybody who holds
Nvidia stock now they're just actually holding Ethereum
Ethereum is kind of irrelevant
since they turned off all their computers
but
there's a couple of other sort of like
people that we could point to
there's this guy who's like
in the small block camp
who's the head of innovation at Space Force
called Jason Lowry and he's
running a big MIT thesis
on Bitcoin like
different ways of thinking about Bitcoin
but he's still he kind of like
I don't know if this is sort of like
his own struggle with like
getting through the next
next barrier or if it's really because
like you're in
you're coming at it from like an institutional
like military industrial complex view
but he always is like stuck at the
think of Bitcoin in an analogy
and there's this thing
called the symbol grounding or physical
symbol grounding problem
and only like five years into this
and like do I realize that Nick Land
in 2016 on YouTube to like 20 people
he was trying to like say this is
really a funny clip from this guy
called his handle is cunt bot
and he would in 2016 when like Trump
was getting elected he's like screaming
Trump is trying to solve the problem of German
idealism yeah yeah I saw
that video yes and and I only
just realized like we spent a lot of last year
like so we're working on like much more like
these physics models and things that are coming down the pipeline
and he just realized that like this book
that I bought in like 2018 or something
is like literally the
it's like the cons the object
of the concept of the
of the
object of a concept
of an object
if that makes sense so in it he talks about
symbol grounding this is critique of judgment
in it he talks about simple
yeah yeah manual kids
yeah so in it this is a third
this is like the return of the king of a manual
can't accept that people don't get it when he gets
the end of the book
you know they should put all three in
one thing in it he talks
about achieving
like the universal as
an aesthetic so taking the universal
from like a
abstract idea
and making and physically
confronting you with it
because you manage to take
what was universal
and embed it in something that is
real and physical and so
if you have the ability
like the ability to do that
is like proof
of the consistency
of how things are working
and so like we didn't realize that this
was what we were doing we were just drowning in this complexity
of like how do we explain all these different things
because we had too many you know bitcoin just like
generates 1800 metaphors
and until we like nailed
them yeah but like for this
mix of things that
we trained on in our
AI process
our model that came out of the
end of it which we really want you to buy
is this thing and we can talk
literally about it and it doesn't
have this like infinite risk
you know
exposure that comes out right
and you know Elon
he's been able to turn
AI from like a research
thing
with PhDs and algorithms
and like Google Cloud hidden
mysterious stuff to like literally turn
the whole Kuiper Cloud virtual machine
industry like great we don't need anything
from Intel anymore we just want
one really really really big building that uses lots
of megawatts right and that's
the same that's why I mean by like this is what
bitcoin is doing because this
exact same type of facility
that is the state of the art in bitcoin miners
is now what
the AI is literally the same companies
that were like to build the big
Texas Bitcoin mining facilities
now build
like building the open AI one at least
in Texas
for Sam right so that is
at least from sort of like the
end of bitcoin subsidies
is the market
that we're in at the moment that I was calling
like computational data markets to start thinking
about the real value that's being provided
by the computers
but
where that was sort of like the 2020
version of it and we're now
moving into this like next phase
where I used to sort of like
the word I
one of my words for 2028
in 2020 was information
creation so
it's like bit and coin
so it's like an ability to
to you can use this thing to create
information because you can coin bits rather
with it right
and the other interesting
word by the way and coin is a coincidence
and it comes from the same etymology
but in
in my view like bitcoin is sort of like you know
when you have the four things are like
the good times are the bad times and the hard times
and stuff and the weak men
is that bitcoin has a cycle
that
once every
12 years
you get all
three properties of money together
so you get like a golden era
and then after that golden
era you have to go back and like recharge
for like nine years
oh sorry sorry
sorry four out of every 16 years
so in a halving cycle
per halving cycle you have
one is
my views like was this information creation
thing and now like
after we spent four years of figuring out how to do
that then like Elon Musk and everybody
they're like we have to go figure
out how to computationally generate data because
we're out of it we already collected up
all of the free data that everybody left on the internet
does anybody have any more free gold bars
that I can collect no
you already collected all of them
right and we
after the halving last
year
we sort of like although
although we had the capacity for that
that was no longer like the central focus
the central focus is now on
how do we take that capacity that was developed
in research and development and this is true as well
for the AI people you can look at
what the AI guys are doing and the
priorities in the AI market
has moved from
how do we do the research
and development to invent the ways of doing things
that we don't know that we need to be doing it
they did that in the last cycle
and that led to chat GPT and transformers
in this cycle
it's all about mass production
it's who can figure out
how to take that
and you see like NVIDIA announcing their sort of
like Mac mini thing
Apple actually make an AI
Mac Studio that costs a huge amount of money
that has 500 gigs of RAM in it now
so like
it's much easier when you think about
yeah there's Bitcoin money is paying for
can you max out the RAM for what's physically possible
beyond what's configured on the website that exists
right
so we're moving into this mass production
phase and you can look
at things in previous
areas along these cycles too
in my view but it becomes more
distinct over time
as we're moving forward and moving off subsidies
and then after
so it's like information creation
mass production
and literally AI
is turning from some mystical thing in the internet
to like the biggest fucking
most expensive building that you can imagine
in the next phase
it's going to be energy generation
and so we'll
figure it out, Elon will figure out how you
design the AI data center
and it will be a product size
reference commodity thing
that like hey everybody on the planet
can you go and build your best state of the art
AI data center please
and I'm not as a business
isn't that Bitcoin
but Bitcoin did it speculatively
so they built the model
but it's not something that's actually capable
of solving somebody's problem
all it is like at
the state of the art, the most advanced
strategy of any of the Bitcoin miners
was that they just figured out how to
obviously build the site
so they have gigawatt sites
that exist that mind Bitcoin
that the AI people are not at that level yet
that's very prized real estate
but what they figured out how to do is what's called
become a large flexible load
so any data center
including all these AI training things
and all these other hyperscale stuff
they all operate on like
100% like 99.99999%
uptime and availability
and the issue is that
that model
and all the overheads and redundancy
and waste and everything that goes into
like making them but there's an azure data center
like three minutes drive from me
up here in New Zealand like
on the hill and they started building that in
2020 and part of the thing that led us to
Mac mini was like
okay like they're filling that with Intel chip
so it's already redundant
they haven't finished building it yet
and that was part of what
what drove me to get on the Mac mini
can you do an A B test in Silverdale in New Zealand
of like yeah if there's a guy
with a bunch of Mac minis hooked up
to a residential
consumer internet
and electricity supply
down by the tradies
like in the warehouses
like three minutes drive
from the nice pristine expensive
premium overpriced Microsoft data center
real estate who can actually
like you know compute
more value out of it
so in this so these
you only have these one reference like
state of the art type of data centers
at the moment but I also liken it
to the America's Cup racing where they like try
to build the best yacht in the world
and by the way that's like the oldest
that's like one of these things like the longest
chain America's Cup is like
the oldest sporting competition
in existence
goes back to like the World's Fair in London
and like 1890 or something
or 1860 one of the you know 18 something
and New Zealand like
is very famous for having you know
like you know
we made it we made
our competition so like
we you know we won it every year
I didn't used to be to be that way
and but it's a design competition
so you get the best sailors in the world and they're trying to
bet just invent the new they have
a reference class so they have some rules
around this is the framing of the competition
and when I say like yeah we weren't making language models
that mean where we was like we showed
up to the it's like everybody was
like yeah guys like shop and Athens
at like 12 o'clock
like on Tuesday you know
like started next month and then we go to like Athens
Texas instead of Athens
in Greece and we like fuck
we should probably should have known that like they meant
the one over there right so the shell
it's the shelling point thing they always talk about the Eiffel tower
with that
and that there's so there's these really
really really expensive you're taking
like the all the speculative
capital on the market and they're
pulling all this risk and like
a very small number of very
specific sites in
Texas and Tennessee obviously
where XAI have their facility
and they're growing that and one being
built by Metta and in Louisiana
right and so for now
the the Texas the expanded
Texas triangle essentially
that is the entirety of
of the market and look for a
time that like Bitcoin mining
might move to Japan and that the Japanese
might do that but the Japanese just took
all their speculative money and they just put it back into
into Texas again and they did that
with the Bitcoin miners that
they're in Texas you know from
from the last couple of cycles
yeah
it is well right
so anyway the end conclusion is that
the market at the moment
is speculative but it's like
applied speculative it's like hey
we're going to have a huge massive take
all the extra dollars
that you know the United States
is going to get destroyed by global
global capital if people on the
internet you know how to out compete us
great we're going to print every dollar in
existence now we printed
all the dollars so there's no extra
the dollar is hard money again
right only if you know
how to get on to
like the state of the art
America's Cup sale boat manufacturing
team if you know how to build the better
thing that's going to win us the race
then you get permission to come in and like
spend these extremely
you know
because they are values now right so
they do know what what
AI is worth because
at least like to the point
that it's worth defending the dollar
hedge money and all this and reshoring
the American industry and everything it's worth
printing every single dollar that
is possible on it right
and
because otherwise that capital is just going to get
printed somewhere else and there's a
there's a really famous
like I think BIS or Bank of England
Bank of England report from like the
financial crisis where they talk about our
when private banks lend money
that they are creating
they are creating
money right like so the modern fiat
economy is a huge free market
the the the meme of like the Federal
Reserve is the big evil thing
and like the central bank of New Zealand and
interest rates or whatever like they don't
they don't they don't print money like the
the Bank of England had to bail out
all of the pension funds in 2022
like a week after 10
days or something after the Ethereum
GPUs turned off because every pension
fund in England was like
using GPUs to yield farm
with government bonds
like stablecoins and the
Liz trust like
you know came out and like did the budget
and they're like fuck we didn't think she
would go this far and it like
made it took made a more bankrupt
and I had like a meeting set up behind the Bank of England
that got cancelled like that very day and
and uh yeah they had to bail out
it was like 65 billion pounds
or something which seems like small money now
right so so they do
at the moment like there is this understanding
at the at the center of the market
that like we have to
we have to say the
number and like Sam Altman you know he's a bit
volatile so he'll go to the Saudis and say 7 trillion
and it's like Sam
okay it's got to be more than
5 billion but like 7 trillion is a bit much
and like building 49 fads
TSMC fads like come back
with something a bit more and so they like
must see Yoshi's son he's like
500
billion I can't do a Japanese accent but
you know he's like Mr. Trump
I can't I can't do it but he
you know he's like I found I found 500
you told me to go back and find 200
he was like hey buddy
he turned that 100
into 200 for me by next week please
and he like comes back and he's like
500
right and he has like Sam
Sam Altman and
Larry Ellison and Larry Ellison by the way
he's like very famous because he put lots
money in the America's Cup
so he's used to these kind of
competitions as well and there's ever Sam
and then and I always find it's funny it's like Sam
Samma like the handle of
Sam Altman it's sort of like the same
name as a Masa
you know it's like
Master Yoshi son it's like the
Ponzi schemes like
they're caught up in exactly the same game
so when it's you ever
remember the meme of like Calvin
air like
shaking hands with Calvin air
so basically it's the same thing that's happening
it's like Elon
and Jensen
they're literally both in the Nvidia business except
one is just like chief customer and one is
chief you know he said it
yesterday he's like chief revenue destroyer
like there's just the
buyer and the seller there's the supply and the demand
and it's like supply and demand
you know doing this in the market and they're like
great like we've so we just solved the market
by getting these two people in the room that are
like the top and they just you know check
check their hands together and
very similar thing with like and then let's
take all of the competitors to these people
and then like put them together right and then
like shake hands and like well
whatever my bigger is the biggest number
that you can come up with in your spreadsheet
master for like in in degrees of like
derivatives amplification
on like how many floating point operations
that you can do in Texas
then
then like just tell us that
number and over over
you know we want it to last till the end of the Trump
admin tell us like the biggest
number that that you see on your
spreadsheet from from now
amplified to
based on everything you know
till 2028 which is next
halving by the way
and then we'll just go put and and literally
like his spreadsheet I think it's just sitting
there updating you know like
one it says a hundred and then he
goes away for a week and he comes back and
and Trump has the same spreadsheet probably
the same models and then the one
says 200 he's like
you better not be saying 100
and then he's like
and then he comes back and then
the spreadsheet is updated and it's like
you need to go and say 500
right and that's what I was meaning about
COVID we're like there's these numbers that
grow and these reflexive like
perception
off of things right
is entirely likely
that well behind
the scenes a lot of people are really just like
looking at this as a stable coin sort of flat line
thing like well we only have so
many we we have certain fabs we
have certain amount of capacity we have certain amount
of chips that come down the line so really
nothing is really changing there like yes you
may have some like shrinking miniaturization
that happens on a predictable basis
but the
if that resource
like isn't well managed
then
it could just get you know torn up
five different ways and then like
somebody bombs Taiwan and
and nobody can get any chips anymore and so there is
all these like speculative like risk
scenarios that
could be much worse than
whatever big number that people are coming
coming up with in the market at the moment so that's
that's sort of what's interesting about where
we are in 2025
versus in 2020 because in
2020 this felt like
we need to go right now
and like try to figure out how we put a price on
information because it's going to blow up right
and like
you know two months after
that it was like all
world travel is shut down nobody go anywhere
or do anything we'll say you know say
anything to anybody and cover your face
right because
in my view there was that much risk
in the
in the economy at the time
and I really felt that and like you know that
pushed me to
you know
get into this
but what you can see now is that there is a
price on
information at least
at the Wall Street level
and that well nobody
is doing a trillion dollars for Sam Altman
yet they're actually like quite happy to
have figured out the number
that we can lock in
for the next four years
roughly and then hey Sam
you better like figure out how to
pay us back our hundreds of billions of dollars
you know by
2029 or
you know you're going to look a little bit like that
Sam Bankman freed guy over there
yeah okay so
the question is like can that be brought
down to
the consumer
and Bitcoin in a way it was
that in
in early 2020's
but it was that speculative
so it was the sort of like
market printing its own money
to incentivize like
this transition and there's
all this like legacy infrastructure
that it like really wants like the
US government like or you know
whatever institutions and things
that exist in the market to provide them a buffer
to like move from
this world in which
they're vulnerable to GPUs
just coming in and like you know
devouring all of their
infrastructure right like
like I went to a thing in town
the other day and there's
some guy who's like
tapping me on the shoulder
being like hey you look like a potential
like startup founder and he's like
just got a job at the
venture capital firm in town
he's been doing it for three months or something
and I just sort of and I like ask him
you know so just you just graduate
what did you study and he said he was
training to be a doctor so great
like some
you know like the
society has like invested
in and like
some guy to get all the way like deep into
medical school and then right at the
front line where he's about to start his career
where he's actually gonna like help a person
you know he's like actually I'll just go like
LARP as a venture capitalist and I was like
well are you on Twitter you know like
and he doesn't even use Twitter so
he doesn't even know how to like do the job of a venture capitalist
so he's not even doing that
and it's the easiest job in the world because
at the moment the entire venture capital like
industry is just Nvidia all you have to
do is like buy Nvidia stock and then like
great you've like done your job like go around
and like find the Nvidia project
that you want to
play around with right
but New Zealand is like
especially like the
like that sort of part of the economy is
very lagged
where they don't understand
like what's happening in
the world economy at the moment
and so like that guy will probably you know
and like buy
2030
there won't be any venture capital business anymore
and he'll be like and
probably in my view it takes you like 10 years
to do this because it like really took
I kind of like from
when I grew up finished university and started getting involved
in like startups and GPUs and everything
and Bitcoin
like by the end by the time
that sort of
like speculative thing
and everything is gone it's like
10 years have passed
so I think there's going to be a lot of that
you know they're just you know you can
imagine some of these people some of these like
zoomer kids that they never even like
went to university
because like the whole university
or like into high school
was all in COVID lockdowns and stuff
that
that there's going to be a big you know by
we're only really like I said
it's only really like one halving past
but you can also sort of look at it as like
we're only we're halfway through the 2020s
now so in the
same way well it felt like a long
infinite long like never ended time when we're going
through it but when you think about it like
well you know March
20th March like 2025
isn't very like far long
since yeah
20th March I think it was like 19th March
or something 2020
right it's like five years to the day pretty much
and
by
2030
that and I've also sort of
said this to people like in respect to Trump because
you had a Trump admin and then now you have one
again and that like there's
a lot of confusion destabilization sort of
like trying to wake up you know
from a coma sort of experience in the
market like you've got amnesia it will
take
most people in America
like until 2030
to realize like
what actually happened
you know with the with the real
inauguration of Trump to actually be
able to be far away
from that point in the same way that people
are like now they're kind of far away
enough away from 2020 that
that people start to go what the
hell was going on in 2020 and what happened
to me you know
and and that you can
have that conversation relatively normally
and from the left perspective
mostly they're just like please
don't talk to me about that and then
vote you know and then and then we're
kind of in a in a big recession
where they just don't want to talk about it at all
but my view is that by 2030
people will be
ready to talk about
it wanting to talk about it and the
issue is that if a lot of these like
remaining risks like the AI
stuff doesn't actually work yeah like the
same AI technology that like you're
using on your laptop and like consuming
every day is exactly the same technology that
was like fueling everything in 2020
every single decision you know
all of the information that you're being
exposed to the entire recommendation
elements all these GPUs that are doing the same
kind of processing and
the same sort of like speculative amplified
like viral incentives
and modeling
if
that
if that
hasn't been patched up
i.e. if
people don't know how to use Bitcoin to manage
the manage the risk of
the AI
in terms of the what it does in the information
environment you will literally be back to like
2020 part two again
that's I think that
it's like not not
unrealistic at all
but it's our job
if we actually have the technical
exposure and
we have gone through like the last
four years being able to
observe what's happening and like we still have
sanity it's our job
still to like well we may
be in a deep recession and there's no like
speculative money around to kind of like proper people
for the like yeah you may have to spend those
Bitcoin things that you like
collected up for a rainy day and the rainy
days it's here now maybe you need to
you know like dig it dig in
to you know do a deep search in
your pocket for some of
those Toshis and
right and figure
out something that that you can
that you can put them to work towards
that is going to
generate a real value
right that's going to remove a
real risk and so it's our job to do that
pricing that's a naturally
like how pricing like works in the economy
but to this day
people still price Bitcoin
dollars and if you
are still pricing
dollars and not dollars in Bitcoin
then you may think that you
spend all your day you're like on the Bitcoin
industry but you're really more in the Michael
Saylor business of
conserving American
dollar capital and if and you're
for any of that business like Maya suggest just
go do the AI thing because
there's already a big sort of national
Manhattan project thing of
hey if you know how to
write
Cuda or metal code
then yeah there are still jobs for you to
to go out there and do that the
issue is that most people in crypto
they haven't they don't actually
have expertise they have sort of like
they're faking
signaling their human capital of like
convincing themselves that because
they asked the chatbot something that they learned
it in five minutes and the
issue is that although yes they may have just
gotten at school they don't have
the long-term knowledge
of having worked on that
in the past and like the other
errors you know like like lower difficulty
so
so they're only really you know
able to they need to be working at the
front lines right
and most of the hard work at the
moment isn't on the front like the AI kind
of like solves most of those front line problems because you just like
AI can do your spreadsheet for you now
it's these like big
deep strategy for like
small numbers like
the like like Intel Intel has
a bigger their board you know they fired
the CEO the founder of the VMware
and so now they're sort of in a
crisis right at the very moment
that Intel has actually
solved their
so they had like a very very very technical
CEO that right at the very moment
that Intel is actually fundamentally
solved its competitiveness
issues which is it looks like
the 18 a fab process of Intel
is going to be the best in the industry
and like even Nvidia is currently
looking at using the Intel fab process
basically like the CEO gets
like thank you very much for like
creating all that value please go
away and and you know because
because they exist in this like manipulated
market where if that
isn't planned as like
well at some point in the next
before the next halving cycle
we're just going to like
take all of that in video capital
and like
make
in the same way that like it used to be
the Intel price and the Nvidia
price and then now it's like
we had a flipping and like
Nvidia is a new Intel and it's like
yeah Nvidia is not the Intel we're just like
you know let's just go like punish
Intel for a bit put all the money over there
being like you guys are doing a great job
and tell GPUs to everybody
and then like when they're all out of the
GPU thing and be like Jensen your
drivers still don't work
then they'll go put them over there
right and that's why I like Apple because
Apple is sort of like they like
this is like the game of the Protestants
you know you got all the
denominations whereas Apple is kind of like
safe there's like a very famous
there's a very famous
like write up I can't remember
I'd have to find the link but it basically
explains like well the PC
the
Apple is Catholic
and
and Microsoft is
Windows
you know Mac OS
is Catholic and
Microsoft Windows is Protestant and so
when you have the PC and you can glue
together all your parts in all the different ways
and change all your backgrounds and make it all how you want
then this
is from the 90s or something
so in comparison like
if you're looking for like a stable investment
of just a computer and you don't need all the bells
and whistles then like between
the drama of like Intel
and Nvidia
then it's
you know is it American 1960s
like American Gordon Moore
you know is that going to be the
American dynamism or is it going to be
this like Elon
Taiwan
thing right and so look for
that transition like rumor is
that the fab process is looking really really good
I also
a viewer is like Intel has
real business that you still run real computers
and operating systems on and
Nvidia is a long long
way away from
doing anything anywhere close to that like so
there's any any
Nvidia computer you have to use
through an Intel or an AMD
or a
or an Apple device
they do try to buy
to get into the into the CPU game
but they don't really have they've made lots of like
CPU integrated
GPU you know products in a long time
but it was mostly just a way to
try to
yeah like some more GPUs
essentially so that they have a lot of like
huge technical debt essentially
from their fundamental business that they're in
that really restricts them
from becoming a CPU company
and if they became a CPU company then they
somebody would just come along in five minutes and do that better
like there's a company start up
and run by
he used to be
Intel's like he
is basically the
the US's most famous CPU designer
Jim Keller
designed Tesla's chip designer AMD
Athlon and 64 bit
and
he was the head of
the head chip architects like under
Intel
2020 at Intel and
he has a chip company called
TenseTorrent which is sort of like
they're Nvidia they're
well funded like
200 million or something like sort of
chip upstart that's competing
with Nvidia where it's
they're making a CPU
they're using a different kind of RAM
so they don't compete
on the same level with
the amount of like they're not competing over
the same commodity of the high bandwidth memory
that they put on a
on any kind of AI accelerator
and
yeah so
so I'm quite interested
in seeing if they show up in here
potentially they may just sort of
get folded back into Intel or something
possibly well knows I think
Intel had a patent for a while
on an ASIC
on a Bitcoin ASIC and I think that they
sold it to block so I think that's like the
block square have some
block you know they have some mining operations
still some
involve somewhere and
they have their patent
okay here let me ask you
I know you I know you're
it's probably been a while and
how much longer do you have with us
let's say like
five to minutes awesome
so what's the 21
to market strategy
well main thing is that
like all of that speculative sort of like
thing like we did in the last
having cycle we had go to market
strategies and then like from the very beginning
you know we're locked down can go anywhere for two years
so we were always just sort of
I had in what I
did it originally and think this is actually
like before the 2020 halving essentially
because it was like in January 2020
you know we did these tests
to see if you can use proof of work
as like essentially a alternate
algorithm for
yes distributing content
right for recommender systems and that was
before we set out about building that technology
but we
knew that like hey you can just go on Bitcoin
and do this like this so from
that core thing
from that point that we could work
with the idea was that well
we can work towards building
specific products like that make
that work or what you
would use Google or Twitter to do
in 2022 that
market got disrupted
right so any
even sort of like the plan
that I had at that time
that was
that
you know the market
appeared
and we weren't playing the same game
right
it's like you're on a
you're on some like
the entire
wrong generation console or something
like you're on a completely different server
so
a lot of that just had to be
basically accelerated to its
eventual conclusion and I had
team and everything you know working
and it's
now just
me for a while still
but we have adjacent we have
sort of like you know we started on this from
Twitter and there wasn't
just this sort of like
and you could even you know you can try to
back to the COVID
events too but it wasn't just
this sort of like chat GPT moment it was also
this like Elon moment with Twitter
right
and so really like from
the perspective of being
a signal that you
can come and do this alternative algorithm
and distributed like this is
that right and like the
number of people who are aware of that
and then and then that's something that anybody
can come on and by
associating
with information
and the way that we put it out there
yours you acquire that capacity
right so I don't make
any money off of it at the moment like we
lose lots of money like supporting
that platform like on X
but instead of
like paying affiliate verified
organizations bill is a much
lower way to provide that
like network
then if we tried
to host our own website and we'd have to hire lots
of people and everything right and so you can
look at actually urban as sort
of in a similar kind of camp
that they really got
sort of like that Milady thing
like they were really just this NFT in this like
you know gated community
so the Milady people really
did that like much more efficiently
they may still have sort of like kind of crypto
products and everything and they have a
coin now as well which doesn't
seem like it is really like helps them
help them build any momentum like more
than they had in the past but they basically
just have a bunch of people on Twitter and they also
it kind of took them like 18
more it took them quite a long
time to have an official
kind of company Twitter account that handed
out badges and they and
it's sort of like they make
money from people doing that with the theory
men of teas so they sort of like
provide that service
similar to but but they
do it sort of we're doing it and like the Dorsi
era like a theory men of tea
makes sense like they're sort of in this in this
urban camp so we come at it from the Bitcoin
side and
not like digital identity and
NFTs but rather the rather
the just proof of work
and so for now you know like
we have this go to market where
where we do sit exactly in the
sweet point sweet
spot between you know the
AI market as it is
the moment which is still sort of like
design competition
right it's not the same thing as like
the hyper speculative markets that
existed in the last having but it's
also not what the market
what we think the market is going to become
which is these types of not AI
like node hardware
that people are doing at the moment but
Nvidia doing it is still just
because they're kind of like trying to convince their
investors that
that they warrant a premium above
Apple and their pre and their
multiples are about this they're
down to about exactly the same now
Apple just announced like two weeks ago a
512 gig Mac mini so you
can run these biggest models pretty much
on just like two $10,000
Mac studios right
and $20,000 Mac
studios well it's about how much I paid for that crappy
super micro server that doesn't do shit for me
in 2020 so if I was
starting you know if I was trying to do what
I was doing 2020 today and getting into competition
data markets I would just buy the Mac studios
right but that's because
the state of the art and public
of that technology
is that you need
you need to be able to run the biggest
model to keep up
so it's entry you know that
that's the entry point
I you know you and I
anyone who's in Bitcoin knows that you can
basically just you know have a crappy little
Raspberry Pi
and probably an iPhone
right and
and essentially do the same sort of inferencing
because you can just sort of process the
information you know
on the ASIC up here
yourself and you don't have to pay Jensen Wang
for that right but for people
that maybe like they don't have Bitcoin
then when they go and do this AI thing
it gives them the feeling
it gives them this inferencing capacity
predictive power
or projection power that
that Bitcoin gives you
proportional to
how much you got and how long you've been holding it
and how much information you've been able to
take in that process right
so you buy the Mac mini
and there's
218 software within the Mac mini
well but this is the point is that like
we had this like speculative thing
for not how do we go to market
as a business so much as like we actually kind of
did that because we just knew that we can any time
that we want we could go on to Twitch and like post things
and people pay us money
right the thing with the
speculation was like can you
take that and
and run a actual you know
Twitter style social network with it
and really like that business that project
never got off the ground because like
the whole COVID era meant that you couldn't
go anywhere say anything do anything or you know
even look look weird ways at people
right so
so we spent a long time
trying to grapple with
okay if you can't do the
speculative thing and you were all kind of like trapped
in the thing how do we solve that and what
came out of it was
was this notion
of the physical
bitcoin and how
what we could best
identify as the thing
not necessarily for that that was
currently a speculative asset that what people were treating
as physical bitcoins because you could say in the last
cycle that that was this h100
but h100 there's Jensen how
I'm saying like don't buy h100
please you know yesterday
there but but
at the same time he's announcing this like here's
a here's our new DGX server
and it's like the size of a M2 Mac mini
right but the M4
Mac mini has come out and it's like
you know 599 US dollars
so there is
and if
if I had sort of like kept
on was able to
take you know what we were doing
sort of in the 2022 and 2023
time and then like carry that through into
this halving and still had to we would have still
had to pivot off of how
do we go to market with search technology
because the search technology was out there and done
and Google was disrupted
so there wasn't any like
you know it's going to try to convince people to build
a different data center they're already building their
Nvidia data centers right but we had
enough insight for like yeah but
those Nvidia data centers aren't really
that good they're really expensive
they have all these other problems
if you're
and when you work on Bitcoin you're
a lot more directly at the heart of the problem
where those guys are dealing with like all kinds
of other just random crap that
doesn't matter like
safety training and stuff like that
they don't need to worry but it's like
like just compare XAI
data center to building
a Bitcoin mine like building a Bitcoin mine
like it doesn't even need internet
you're basically just building like
warehouses and doing the electrical work
but that base work
if you focus on that and do it a bit
on scale much better than when you're
trying to do an AI training center
right and they just retrofit
they retrofitted an Electrolux factory
for that so they didn't actually build
in the AI industry
they're not building that like building part of
part of the data center
so
like
we don't really have any capacities very similar to the
urban situation of like
speculatively go out
and plan some big thing and whatnot
what we knew
and what we could see with
Nvidia's business model and the risks
of their inventory and the risks of
their manufacturing and then we could
also see with MicroStrategy
and like well what is it at the Bitcoin
side and then what is
what are his strengths and weaknesses because they're very much the opposite
where does this
weird
physical Bitcoin like thing
where do we fit in there
and the conclusion
of it was this concept
of like Apple Silicon
being something that you can treat like a stable coin
because it's the most commodity
right it is the most memetic
and it's the most stable like an Apple
computer depreciates less than
any other like IT asset
at all now if you approach it from a
dollar lens rather than a Bitcoin lens
then you're still going to look at that's a bad investment
because it doesn't make me any dollars
but that's because dollars don't know how to use
computers and bitcoins know how to use computers
right so like if you're
in the business of like
holding on to a huge inventory
of some computers and which
not really doing that I do have a bunch of computers
that I was like left with from the previous
from like the previous cycle
but what we're doing
at the moment is more like well there is
this collective
computing capacity that
is a Bitcoin property but
at the moment it's like hamstrung on these crappy
little raspberry pies and it's not useful
useful on everything right
like you got it's like five years
and they're still talking about Terra node and apparently
use GPUs now you know I could
have told them in 2020 like
don't use Java like
it's a dead end it's not going to work
like you need to use GPUs I could have told them that
in 2020 and that was like how I viewed the mark
in 2020 we need to put GPUs in the Bitcoin node
right couple of years after
that project and not really making you know
getting to go to market on it
we realize that and it's not actually
that great an idea anyway because these things
called Apple Silicon now that didn't exist in
like you know March
20 or April 2020 or whatever
when the Bitcoin mining having happened
during the lockdown that didn't exist then
so we couldn't act out like
that wasn't a reality that we could
just like plan and act on right
similarly
if I had
although we did have this idea of
like well we would really love to run
become Google Google AdWords
and like Bitcoin mining put together
and like be the ad engine the principal
the dollars like we knew
how to do that technically but if I was
like well Elon Musk
is going to buy Twitter and he's going
to pivot the whole business from like
advertising and journalism and media
and censorship and everything and put it all
on to magical numbers
and doge things and tick marks
then that would have been pretty
implausible so I
couldn't have taken that seriously and like
plan some go to market based on that
but by that
by the time that happened
Bitcoin had much
more quickly had it's like
had been subject to this
like macro wave of like what
became chat GPT so before that actually
happened but the Bank of England thing
like the FTX thing like Ethereum
turning off the GPT even the stablecoins
that macro like
wave front
like that hit the whole Bitcoin industry
in late 2022
and so I also couldn't have
if you ask me in 2020
like are the biggest Bitcoin minors
in the world with a several hundred megawatts
they're just going to lose faith in BTC
and so we did end up
in this position in the market
that is extremely valuable
and literally the only other guy
the only sort of other two people
in this position is
Elon and then Zuck
just because he just runs a social network and has data centers
anyway so he can copy trade them and keep up
right he doesn't really have
the intuition or like know how it works
but X
he did it he like plugs the revenue
gap in X and then
did the AI business second
right whereas something like like Sam
Altman he's sort of going on the timeline
sort of like last week and like
how do I
like he's talking about
getting into the social they're thinking
like do we need a social product and the answer is actually yes
you need a social product but
if you're doing that now and not in 2023
then forget about it
because you don't know
like in the same time that threads came out
so if open AI
came out with like a Twitter competitor
when threads launched then
they would have had this AI business
and they could have like integrated
that and they could have had a chat
GPT like data feed
you know and then brought over
over people from Twitter when they were
leaving to Blue Sky and they were
leaving to threads that didn't happen
you know Elon managed
to keep the users in
Twitter for a large part
and then he went and took
that like
fading
social media advertising
business like capital there was losing a lot of money
right and he like
massively downsized and such and such
but the important thing was then he set up
he set up an AI business and a lot
of the founding team of XAI they came from Tesla
so there was like
a similar
collapse in value while
Twitter was going down
that Tesla could have very easily
gone out of business and because
Tesla AI essentially XAI
is now an independent company
that reduces
the need to continue to compete
on this like AI front
which is what they were doing
you know in 2021-2022
time frame they were making competitors to
Nvidia GPUs and building $500 million
you know supercomputers right and so they're not doing that
anymore they're just focused on
on the car and so the market like keeps
that around it still once you know
and they and he has real factories
which in my view like that factory
business is going to be really important
from 2028 to 2032
we're still in this like build the data
centers like come up with the new reference
architecture for data centers like without
any intel in it
right and
it's Bitcoin style like micro
strategy style
dollar markets that are paying
for all of that
right and they have a benchmark to compare
compare themselves against with
with the mining facilities
but by
by the 2028 to 2032
halving
it's going to be really important to
build to build
and it's like you and you all have a site
like this in Ohio that they've
opened I think that's a it's
a billion dollar you know like that
he's building like autonomous
drones and things whether his products like
actually get ever get used for anything
is another question but like
you kind of it's kind of like the perfect company
that like you can't tell if it's a video game like
NFT thing where they're just like really
big fanboys in military history
and technology and that they don't actually like
ever intend for any of their products to ever be used
to anywhere and he's a cartoon character
right so
so some extent and so like
Jason Lowry he's a little bit like that
sort of like from
that perspective if you if you like study
if you kind of expose our information
and you go listen to Jason Lowry
you literally say realize
he's talking about exactly the same thing
except he's really saying like hey we need to use proof of work to secure like
you know
all the government agencies because
they all run on like Oracle databases and
and things and anybody can
can can wander in there
right and so there's a little bit a little bit of that
going on going on with Doge
what's going to be important once you get
get to that next phase and you can think
of that as like when Jensen like shows up
with some robot and like
Elon does is like Tesla Optimus thing
well that technology
doesn't really work yet but by
2028 it will
and what currently it won't just be like
scaling out the data centers but every
significant energy consumer
every warehouse that has
like a CNC machine in it
that could have been mining Bitcoin right
it
it will be
it will have like
the AI Bitcoin
CNC machine that
that that knows how to keep working
it knows how to just infinitely
you know it's not like
an ASIC that you figure out oh we found
one person to send us an API query
for some hash hash caches
you know it's 1997 and then you
spin it up for 12 seconds and then you turn it off
right that's like
the entire industrial
economy
is like well we got an order for some widgets
and then like you turn the CNC machine
on and like machine parts
and then you like deliver it to guys like
three minutes down the road right in the
truck and
the best people could come up with
was 3D printers and there's like
like one of the
guys like he went to
work at the New Zealand economy is very like
globalized like
you know first world so after
working at the magical numbers company
actually
like a couple of people like one of them went to work at the
superconducting space propulsion
company and one of them worked
at the titanium 3D printing company
where they like 3D print
parts that would otherwise
you know previously have been machined
but because New Zealand is such a small economy
but they need some like very bespoke widget thing
and they go 3D printed out of my
titanium right
rather than
like you know so they can iterate
that much more quickly and then
well you know one of the ideas
that we have is like well what else should
you know like if we need to add value
if we need to make the price floor of the starter kit
go up
well maybe we'll just put the price up on the website
proportional to a titanium 3D
printed case with your bit coin thing around it
that we put on it
so there's an open problem
of not just
like trying to keep it as
as commodity and pure as possible
so physically aside from
putting the best bits that we can
figure out by the time that everybody
demands that we
they take them off our hands
and there's not that demand for it at the moment
people are still buying in
there's that
but there's
so that's sort of like the
stable lens of it
that you're really sort of like looking at as
its base how you view a Mac Mini today
and how you value a Mac Mini today
right now people don't know
how to value like a 218
starter kit because it's completely undefined
it does give you
the feeling of like well I own
a 218 starter kit in New Zealand which
is a Mac Mini so it
constrains my search of what could
a 218 starter kit be to things
that Mac Minis could potentially be
and you know a computer is still
relatively universal in
the range and scope of the things that it can do
but if you understand that like well
you know hundreds of people are
ordering these things then not just like
are you exposed to certain like
information from us like
on Twitter but we also
have like a direct relationship with you
which is also via the trust of the
Apple brand right in the same way that
well you can interact with our people
on our social network without
us needing to run a social network
with database and everything
an algorithm like Elon
just does that and we pay him for it
but there is
the case where
like imagine that we can't get
Mac Minis or like people really need them right now
or like how do we
that people start to have a non-zero
price for like
what they would value
and node
in our network
but that we may still need to
we may still be working on
building that up to the point that
is what we really want it so there's
a buffer that needs to be made
potentially we might have
to go okay we're going to put a
gold bar in the box
right if the
base price
of that
kit gets so speculative
right so imagine like somebody
comes and puts a $10 million order in
and I can't go buy $10 million
Apple things or that's confusing or what not
then maybe we go
then we have the Michael Saylor
problem of like where do we go
store our $10 million while we're waiting
for our Apple order to come through right
and if we can do
that while containing it
in the commodity then that same
idea that we started with in
2020 about how do you get a non-zero
price for data
well a computer you know if it
can store any data in it
so if you have a bunch of computers
and they're not you know somebody isn't
saying hey I'll buy that computer with
something on it off of you like imagine
it's got Satoshi's private key well
then it's not the price of the computer is it
it's the value of the private key
right and the private key can sign
a message so if you had a computer
that was signing a message to say it's a
such and such Bitcoin wallet then you're probably
gonna like try to get access to that
thing you know ideally legally right
and the same
psychology existed this like physical
Bitcoin okay so
I have one last question because I know
you got to get going you ready
and it follows right where you were saying
I'm sorry I'm sorry for cutting off
were you about to say something
I was just gonna say that the same thing
exists for this physical Bitcoin level
so if it's so not
just like a tweet a tweets
worth of information
right that maybe is worth like two dollars or something
and then you have the problem of like dealing with
the mass production of tweets
problem the mass production
of a computer that
helps you do what those twenty one eight people on
three on Twitter do right
that is much more stable
and grounded it's bounded so it doesn't
have the same computational complexity that
like drowned me
before it helps
to give you a way
to buy into something
speculative without the box
you know without the can of worms all being open
and you and you dealing with with looking
directly at that before
before it's done right
now if that hype got
really really big which I don't
think is I don't expect at all
but logically in the
in the exercise this is
like part of what to think about
is like well there might come
a situation where
the market really wants
a the buy-in
price for a Mac Mini
for and for a twenty one eight node
to be a hundred thousand dollars
right
in which case we would need to
configure a
suit of like
there would be some shift in the understanding
of what it is that
that would proportionally
want that the capital
that it would still do the same thing
but that the physical
physical
products that's representative of that
of that price
would be proportionate
so you have a lot of risk
like if and all these
AI tokens they have this sort of like
net asset value sort of
like speculative things so they'll hold some
Salanas and then the thing will be like
worth twenty million dollars but they'll only have
five hundred thousand of Salanas
so they have this issue of
if that was happening to us and we don't have a token
so it doesn't I just sell it
at the raw asset value and it's an
asset it's not a financial
asset that's traded and speculative and has all this
it's a product that
that you're buying because it's going to come with our
software on right
but without us going out
there and like
advertising potential
and actually that would reduce the
reduce the value of it
because if it's a computer can do anything
and so it's really about the marketing exercise
and could you potentially just ship it
at its 1099 New Zealand
price it's
it's really an exercise about
hey we just want to have the experience of buying a Mac mini
from you right and then
but then the extra cost is this delay
for when that actually gets shipped
now if I just people just bought Mac minis from me
and then I shipped them from New Zealand and then
it lost me money like for all the overheads
that wouldn't be a very good business
so we're in the business of this very sort of unique thing
where only if you want to do that twenty one eight
thing otherwise you know
go buy Apple by one from
the Apple store because that will also
give you the physical products and you can do
this exercise with everybody else too
right so there is a
so there is a
chance in the same way that a micro strategy
share is like
$250,000 compared to a Bitcoin
right what is
that premium
that they
and obviously there is a premium there part of
it is like the management so it's like
the key wallet thing that I was
talking about with him before I actually think his
coins are managed by Coinbase
but it's the accessibility
of that from your pension fund
in the US because you can't buy Bitcoins
from your pension fund so there is a suitable
premium there in an actual service
they're delivering and if he
and he's every day that he gets on
he's like trying to explain it right similar
to this similar to this conversation
is that he has a
product that he's selling where there is
some premium and some work and some added
value that he's putting into it but he
doesn't know what
that value should be priced at
right so he's just
acting on this like short-term thing
which is like yeah but the Bitcoins are underpriced
right which is the subsidy thing
of in general but at some point
the price then that that prediction
becomes true and now you have a dilemma
which is you have to sell your Bitcoins
and then you're just buying back in which he does
like right so his cost of
his average cost of Bitcoins go there
Bitcoin miners are doing this now too
they've stopped building new capacity
and they're just buying Bitcoins from the market
so there are no new
large-scale facilities that are being
developed and that's why I think
that this Japanese money is coming
but we have a little
micro version of that and that we
don't
like it's not paid
for by it's not a subsidy
right so there's no speculative
value like hey we can make X amount of dollars
if we go and get a bunch of energy
and borrow a bunch of money and then
like go buy ASICs and go buy Bitcoins
for a couple of years right there isn't
any of that what I'm
the role I'm also doing is like
I'm also being a merchant
so like great there
is now something that you can buy
you can buy a physical Bitcoin and you could buy
physical Bitcoins remember and like way
back when and that you could buy a coin
thing yeah but you can trust them
you can trust them so
there is this like once you move
to this post subsidy model where
the information is much more valuable
and starts to be and if you know how to
get at that with the blockchain
then it's the capabilities
of the system no different
to how Jensen
or how you know
Larry Ellison or Elon
or Zuck are doing the calculations
on like well how big
of a model can I train on
these particular chips
and the exact same conversation
is happening with
Nvidia chips that
systems that are no bigger
than a Mac mini
but actually it's a Mac mini
so actually it's quite sizable
but there's also actual
people
building Mac mini clusters
you know a couple of years
after we started doing it
and then like you know it went quaint
didn't tell anybody about it
because it was like
valuable information at the time
now we're in a market
which is like hey if we can coax
and convince everybody to adopt
this business model and move to this
node type
then a lot of that
speculative value and risk that's like
overpriced in Nvidia
you see these huge queues
of people going to the Nvidia GTC conference
well in 2028
they will be going to
the like bit main
Nvidia hybrid
of the GPU AI ASIC
thing right
which in my view is not going to look
very different to
a Mac mini right because
it has these existing performance properties
of
what people are trying to get at when they do it in the data center
so that's this thing
there might be
a case where
the speculators
get too much of
side information gain from us and they
hear about the
2028 thing again and they want to go
and turn it into something
in order for that not to turn into
like sort of like
the speculative vehicle that I had before
where we hire people and we go out
and sort of like rationally try to
do that like we're a Silicon Valley company
right and I pivoted off that business
model entirely onto the nodes business
if that started coming back again
I like
first of all hey we did that business
and nobody wanted it and we didn't get
we didn't get funded we ran out of money and so like
we went off so I'm doing this now instead
right there is a potential that
if that got too big then
I would need a way to not just have
like the base thing like think of it
like the micro strategy the Bitcoin part
of the micro strategy but if you had all the
speculative risky capital and like some
potential premium
which is that if I needed to sell if I could
only deal with as just me like
nodes in the hundreds
if suddenly everyone wants like
250,000 if I have
if there's like 250,000 people
that want to come and get it I don't have the capacity
to subsidize
it to to that extent right because I sell
all these kits at cost
they people pay for it in the time
that they're willing to wait to you know
but you can a couple of you know
not too angry people but some people that
basically regretted their decision after 12
minutes you know they're like hey I did that
thing but can you just give me a refund
and we just process that
and so there's an exercise
and being in the club of like holding on to
this all this potential energy
work on it collectively at some
point ideally it's just that
people demand the thing and it's ready
and we can and at that moment
it's like when the Bitcoin miners
turn off because there's a storm
going there's a blizzard going through Texas
and it's more profitable to sell
electricity to the people in Texas
than it is to buy all the electricity
and sell it to Bitcoin
right
if there is a speculative
thing on on this exercise
then we might have a risk of
like needing to upgrade the computer
for example and in my
view every if that happened
it would dilute the core value proposition
because the Mac money is already the best
like
performance per dollar per watt
out of out of any
products in the industry
and I did that calculation like on the M1s
and M2s
and now we have the M4 out
so I don't think that I think the
Nvidia has a chance that they could make something
they could catch up and make something competitive
by the next halving
and like by when the next
halving comes along I'll reassess it completely
like hopefully there'll be a startup that makes
this stuff like open
and runs Linux and everything and not macOS
and a bunch of like proprietary drivers
but
but I'm making
that commitment we'll do that and we'll support that
for gen one of the system
and then when the second gen comes along
think of it like going from PS1 to PS2
then we'll look at well
is there something that is more
Mac mini than the Mac mini
right in terms of like
in a
suitable number of properties
that it's better like it's shrunk even more
then
yeah if that's something that Microsoft
and Qualcomm or Intel
or somebody do you know I'll just do
that analysis and that will just
have taken all the mimetic power
probably if it does it but the other thing about
Apple is that you know they're a long
term
they're older than Bitcoin right like they've been
your macOS is older than Bitcoin
so there's a certain amount
of like risk that you have to take into account
for like well just because something
might be shiny and new and competitive on some
specs today doesn't mean
that like it's not going to collapse
and value after five minutes or that your
grandma is going to you know know how to use
it to to sell her emails
it's essentially emails
so like that's
the view that I take into it's like
the most you know the best
the most computer per dollar
and as part of that
use case you know
that set of use cases is essentially
is it also the best thing to
to use to work on Bitcoin
and my view today like yep if like
if you have bitcoins
and you spend your bitcoins
on buying an Apple Mac mini
you will probably do fine
if you somebody
who is going to you know spend
your bitcoins like buying a really expensive
top of the line 500 gig
Apple computer and we will also
show those on the timeline so that
people can figure out you know the
investments that they want to make
versus
just you know saving
your money and
and then getting it at this level
then
um
yep there's a guy in the moment
who's um
in Brazil
he may have seen some of these tweets the other day
who um he's uh apparently
he's um
I think he's already he's just taken delivery
of 256 M4 Mac minis
um
and um he uh
but the rumor is that he's trying to build a cluster
of 1024
so I'm following along on that
you know closely um
there's some 21a8 sort of adjacent
aware people behind the scenes
who I think have prodded him to do that
um but he did the calculation himself
for his own project which is um
also sort of like AI and crypto adjacent
kind of like a knock chain thing
like the knock chain guys they also sort of
if you ever go ask the knock chain guys
what hardware should I be using the knock chain
they will just tell you a Mac mini
because it is the
it is this kind of like standard answer
um for the for these types
types of tasks and otherwise like
when it's general purpose you don't really know what it's going to be
used for right so although
there are specific recommendations you can make
the language models language models like
very limited like
it's only one type of thing that you can use
to run a GPU and like for example
uh 100,000
server with like no display
ports it's not going to be very good
if you want to like then close down
the AI program and then run halo on it
you know like play a game on it because suddenly
you know it's in some data center
somewhere and you don't have
you don't have Xbox controllers
and you don't have screens that can be plugged into it
and whatnot right and if you try to move that to your house
it's going to use like 100 kilowatts
all right so let me ask you a question
just the kind of bring things down
for the audience so essentially
um
21E8 is a bitcoin
node it's a bitcoin meta node
that applies to bitcoin
is that correct
and it's also what it might be
but in a practical sense
there's lots of different answers
for like what like different forms it can take
the issue is that that speculation
that was like what we solved
by the with this physical bitcoin concept
right now
if you think about these AI technologies in general
it's not just about like
what is an AI model and a chatbot
like chatbots are not that exciting
so if I told you it's a chatbot
which there's a demo of me on YouTube
from like 2020 showing like
here's our search tool right
we didn't ship that because like
the technology whether it's
you know what we're doing or whether it's like
all these other gen AI companies do
they know that like it has this unbounded potential
to be anything and everything in lots of different ways
right and I'm not
in that like I'm not
in that business anymore of
of build some big complicated like
software platform where you could do that
like that's expensive and you need some
money to play that game so I'm not playing
the game now what I am playing is like
I think that the that that game
is going to move to
a you know
something that looks a lot more like a Mac mini
as as a platform
and I think that and there are some
sort of
things that that we kind of
invented or were the first ones to
to play with like what part of this
is things to do with the Mac mini but part of it is also
like the affiliate badges and if you go
on Twitter now you will see several different
companies that are in the
Mac mini AI business and they
use affiliate badges and several of them
are going hey maybe I can do some
Solana pump fund agent things
for my revenue model
right and that
right now they won't call that the computational
data market because
the speculative capital and the money
is paying people to say AI
agents right now
if they said twenty one eight and computational
data markets then they would find very quickly
that they suddenly know
more about what's going on and they make better decisions
and and and and they
you know that they build their products along that way
and so there's several like twenty one eight
adjacent companies that are all
tackling that
speculative problem on a
on a small scale right and so I'll be
looking to can some of those
projects be suitable
enough like when the
Xbox came out well
and you you or or or steam
launched then you had halo
as a day one launch title or
you had
half life to you know
ship on
alongside steam right and so
I'm doing the exercise
of making the starter kit
box that is a magical
box that says twenty one eight on
it and so they're like yeah it's
really hard for other people to
figure out how to put bitcoin and
AI into a box that I could
plausibly imagine that could be
sold at best buy we would really
like to have twenty one eight starter kit boxes
that you buy at best buy but we would
also like to have it say Chloe twenty one eight
and got six hundred and everything next to it right
and it costs lots of money and the
AI technology still isn't there yet
to make like an AI video game
but Elon like one of you
learn to like you know read the announcements
and see what's going on you can see that
there's a lot of that that's coming down the pipeline
it's also coming from Nvidia
they have been saying the same sort of thing about
that every game frame
is going to be generated instead
of instead of rendered
and you know buy buy
and about in about five years
four or five years so it's not like I can see that with
their chips now so it's not like I just
we could just go buy Mac minis
and install the software of
twenty one eight ourselves
for the speculative exercise
of like the Mac mini unit of account
you can do that
if that's a lot of work
and like you know and you'd rather just
like I do that hold on to that
for you and put them in a pile then I'll also
you know I'll also do that
so you can actually approach that like purely from that
on that speculative basis
and it's a fun like entertainment
thing of like think about your Mac mini
and now you don't need to scroll on Twitter all day
because you can just go anywhere and like
think about a Mac mini like you know turning
around in your head and like that's quite entertaining
so that's really efficient
but
but I'm punished anytime like like
we don't make any money right because we sell the note at cost
and the value proposition
is better
if you don't need like
the less that you need is an overhead
so hopefully
I don't need to open the boxes at all
to preconfigure anything I can just
put like an SD card in there or a Bitcoin
like transit transaction
idea of some zip file or something else
but it needs to have everything
in there for you to do
what we were doing in the last cycle
right
which is this information creation concept
and so right now I'm sort of in like
post production on that try to figure out
how to continue like anything that
isn't needed it can be thrown out and deleted
and then continue to grind it down
until it until it you know
like fits on a nice little like
a gigabyte SD card
and then you can confidently go
okay cool like let's go
let's go create 10 million of these
right but ideally
ideally it
did we lose you
oh shit I'm here I'm here can you hear me
your camera just disappeared
I guess it's a good thing for the end of the
end of the chat
ideally we'll have figured out
I never plugged in my camera
so I was running on battery
my bad
so I could I could
turn on in one second sorry
it's okay it's quite funny
we could definitely
start wrapping up you know what
I really want I really love
this because from
just
as a bit coiner
who fell in love with bitcoins computational
power
I'm someone who
finds a lot of value in this man
like I really do and
and it's it's for the first time in my life
that I see it actually happening and taking
place
in a very real way
in a new way in a way
that is better
than I had ever hoped for you know
where like
like this is something
like I'm complete can you see me
now can you hear me well yeah
to be completely honest
Mark like I've been
one of those people I've probably followed you the closest
throughout the years and yet it's
been very hard for me to really wrap my head
around this so I really want to thank you
for your time and
believe me I'm starting to really get the picture
I'm really starting to get the picture now
now I'm at the position
where as soon as I'm off this call
I'm gonna at last time I checked
the Mac mini's were out of sale
there's a lie
there's a there's a message that said
we're out of stock can I go buy
one right now
I just so what I'm
doing is like every week I will call up
the PC shop and they send
me five computers and I
take on the risk of like making that
available because before last year
what I was doing is people were ordering them
and then after they send me the money
and then strike sends me the money then I would go
and and and get the computers
alright so my so I'm sort of
trying to do the job of be really good
like you know run the inventory
and like immediately be
able to have the have the thing on
it's a moment notice so I will
go acquire like some nodes
and and like and like
you know our risk
tolerance
add some nodes put them on the website
keep track of how many days they
they take to ship because this is one
of the key indicators
for Nvidia at the moment is it
something like 68 days
for
inventory that they have on hand
to be shipped to customer
right and that's
that's like with an argument
like a high extremely
highly overpriced
like that's at the speculative
thing that they're supposedly saying
like you know there's enormous infinite
demand and they're all out of stock
well if they're all out of stock why is it taking
68 days to move the inventory
right so my goal is
for us to not just have
this sort of like micro strategy thing of not
being the not not having
the execution
risk of creating
and producing the product but also
distribute marketing and producing it
right and like doing the software and things
de-risk the hardware
right and to the
and to the extent that
they might you're
still here I'm still here I'll just
I'll just finish up and we can
yeah to the extent that
there might technically need to be
some software on there
that goes in the box that like
to nail the experience like I have
the capacity to do that
but we're making
the bet either
that at the moment like
if we put some premium so if I charge
like $1200 except to make
many is less then
it wouldn't have the same sort of
effect
but yeah
it would like limit the
value that comes out of the collective
like network and exercise from doing it
if we figure out how to just make all that work like at the moment
if you just get a Mac mini and you install X on it
and then you can see how people so you don't
yeah like a computer is
or iPhone or whatever is the $2800
right so that's
that's all that's kind of needed at
this at this level of it
if suddenly everybody that has
one of those badges that you see on the internet they could
start you know doing something
then what I'm trying to do is like
you know former consensus on
hey everybody just like
use the Mac mini as
the nodes target so that some guy
doesn't come and like add something that
like it would be as we had this problem where
in 2020
you know most of the nodes off was still for running on servers
and so people were shutting down
their nodes and they wouldn't have had that problem
if they ran on like
you know on a desktop pc
as much
right on
no this is amazing
if you had a Mac mini then you probably
wouldn't have the camera problem so much
there you go
it doesn't even have a camera so you just like
come on on the audio you know
yeah correct so
I'm just blown away and I want to thank you for your time
so I'm
this is something that I find so
important
that what I'm going to do Mark
is I'm going to watch this over and over again
because you
it seems like you're like a volcano
erupting of information
of ideas
of like really consolidating
what we need most
in bringing to life the
bit aspect of bitcoin
so I'm going to digest everything
I'm going to take down some questions
I'm going to really go get I'm going to get
some questions out of this whole
conversation and I would like to do
a part two with you
it could be in a month from now two months
from now but I really want to keep the momentum
going I understand that you're
going to be having a twitter space tomorrow right
so
there's some stuff around the moment things don't change that
rapidly
hasn't really changed like in 12 months it's now sort of about the time that
to sort of kind of like going on 12 months since
we started this like 11 months did you can
now start understanding
what's going on
and I sort of I've done a few
interviews over the years and you can
sort of track them a bit so
I would go and write down some
questions pick somebody else
with that badge on twitter
and
ask them some questions
I think that would be quite interesting
and then like you know let's talk
let's talk in like 12 regime months
there you go yeah so
when I'm going to ask everyone watching this video
it's a
to write down questions
and at the beginning of this video I'm going to
I'm going to put a message
at the beginning of this video saying
this topic is pretty dense
if you have any questions for
mark for an upcoming video
make sure you ask questions below
just feel free don't be bashful
ask questions just ask questions
on the comments below
mark thank you so much for your time
thank you for everything that you're doing
for bitcoin, for the entire
space and
working people find you
working people learn more about what
21E8 is
go to apple.com
and then you know
you can find me there
perfect thank you for your time mark
peace love anarchy
ciao
now we are dealing with
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some will say we are already in a world war
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suffering under tyranny
it really sucks, I'm really sorry
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regarding crypto more and more each day
and so it's in the description right here
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you know everyone needs this information
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