It's time for Declare Your Independence with Ernest Hancock believe me when I say we have a
Difficult time ahead of us, but if we are to be prepared for it, we must first shed our fear of it
I stand here without fear because I remember
I remember that I am here not because of the path that lies before me, but because of the path that lies behind me
I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines and
After a century of war, I remember that which matters most
We are still here
Let's make them remember, we are not a friend, we are not a friend
From the Sonoran Desert we're starting to get relatively warm. Well, we're gonna go to almost a great white north
In New Hampshire where it's probably still they cold and what we're gonna go ahead do is gonna talk to
Jason Sorens. Okay. Let me tell you Jason Sorens is he's all he's all credentialed and such
Senior research fellow. Oh, yeah for what he's a PhD and senior research fellow at air. Now air stands for
I need some air. What we're gonna go ahead and do is talk about that and
Principal investigator in New Hampshire zoning atlas. What the hell does that mean?
But I'm interested in some zoning stuff. Jason and I you know hung out a little bit at Anarca Poco and
Where you had the theater going on there, that's a whole nother thing
What Jason was formerly the director of for ethics in society at St. Anselm College
He has research and written more than 20 peer-reviewed
Journal articles a book for McGill Queens University Press titled
Successionism
and a
Biannalee revised book for the Cato Institute freedom in the 50 states with William Ruger his research is focused on
Housing policy and land use regulation
U.S. State politics fiscal federalism have movements for regional autonomy and independence
around the world now explain how that's all pertinent and you know
Housing policy land use regulations occupy the land. I'm gonna be asking Jason, you know a whole bunch of questions
So get ready. He has taught at Yale
Dartmouth and the University at Buffalo and twice won awards for best teaching in his department
Maybe it's a kind of truth thing, you know, he tried that. He lives in Amherst, New Hampshire
Now how we know Jason as
early
Oh
2000s we were since three weeks after 9-11 we did the freedom summit every year now the freedom summit was, you know a thing
well
at the table there
Early in the aughts
There was a I don't know if it was Jason or other people or whatever that was man in the table
The Free State Project now I'm gonna tell you the story as I remember it and have Jason correct me all the places
I'm wrong. This is how I remember it what happened was they were there
advocating for
Libertarians to move to a geographic area. We could concentrate our efforts. So they wanted to have a
low population
Been nice if it had an international border, you know access to the ocean, you know, so I kind of you know throughout Wyoming
Which is buying for it. Then you have
Bo, you know, you get so many people sign up. I was like 5,000 or something online
And that's what they were advocating for. Hey man, let's do this and
once we
select a state
After we get so many people
To go I think it was like 20,000 or something that signed up that they promised they'd go
Then you pull the trigger and you got a year or two years to move there
Or we or we you know call you a slacker or something. I don't know what the penalty was
But you know, that was the pledge you guys get 20,000. We're going to
Hampshire well, I remember it was
Early the first quarter and oh three or maybe by the second quarter
because I just started doing terror and radio out of Scottsdale and
Man to Phillips. I think that's what her name was, you know, we had okay
They they picked New Hampshire. She comes on the show next morning announces and I'm going so
You got a secret handshake, you know, you got a club you got a deal. I've pledged allegiance to something
I mean, what how's this going to work?
Well, we did our first freedom summit outside of Arizona in Manchester, New Hampshire to help promote it
We had Ron Paul there base Beauvard, you know, George Smith, you know, a lot of greats in Peter shift
I mean, you know, it was a good so array. Well, what happened was, you know, a lot of things
transpired way too much libertarian attention on New Hampshire the live free or die state
Well, the man was, you know, not digging it too much because they're surrounded by Massachusetts Vermont main kind of got this freedom
Bastion of you're not allowed and we're trying to change that damn license plate cover that says live free or die and on our license plate
You're doing it wrong. So I'm like
The battle beyond well, then you had people start moving there free talk live came out there with you know
Ian Freeman and Mark Edge and they get targeted by the FBI once explained it to us
You know a bunch of crypto stuff's going on, you know, gold backs and silver currency and silver bits with silver Dave there and
Starting to live free and get in land and farm and supply in the free state project with me
Where's the meat? Well, the free state guys had it during cobit. They marketed it on Facebook
because you can't sell animals there as a
Bacon seeds the hell's a bacon seed little piglets because you had to say it that way
So this is the kind of environment that it created and I was very familiar with New Hampshire during Ron Paul evolution of
Oh seven eight winter there got the witness how they
Take care of business on their own
They're not waiting on the government because it's there's no concentration of really big giant populations
It's spread out over the state which when you select that you get 20,000 libertarians moving there
Get involved or not involved in politics just by osmosis
I mean if you just like a good neighbor of free staters there all of a sudden. Yeah, what they are what they're saying
So this is what happened
Jason was the one that wrote this as part of his PhD or something. We're gonna have him explain it to us
About the free state project this concept and it took off and it actually happened. How often does that happen? So
Jason
We'll get into how it's going now. It's been deck decades. It's uh, you know a going thing
You know, we have different festivals Liberty Forum just happened
Which is you know had a resort during the winter because it's too damn cold and then you have in the summer
Porcupine Freedom Festival. Well, that's more often all kinds of different stuff and once you create an organization around a movement
Or a cause sooner or later the organization becomes more important than the reason you created it
And you get into the alchquit it crap, but by now people are already living there moves a piece out
You know, we already did it. We're doing whatever you guys go do whatever you want
But Jason has had some legislative
successes to the point that they done those don't like it none too much
So we're gonna be talking about his accomplishments there what he's been doing with his degree and how his concept has
inspired the world
the world so
Jason first how far off was I going from memory on that what I would just say it
Ernie you got everything important, right? So so good for you
Important there's unimportant stuff, right?
Yeah, I mean so it's five years after we hit 20,000 the people had to move
but it doesn't really matter now because we're beyond that five years now and
People are still moving so now our goal is just to get as many people as possible
Possible to move and to stay in the state
So we're signing up natives in New Hampshire
To get them active working for a free society and to stay in New Hampshire and fight
Okay, now that was the one thing that was
Kind of unique about this is that there was a pledge and it goes, you know
I pinky swear to you know do all my efforts to
Promote and do and run for office and help and kind of political solution of free state project
And there were a lot of people that went that I don't give a crap about that. I'll sponsor the local ruling team
You know, I'll be a good neighbor. I will in my trap. I'll plow the road for my neighborhood
I was you know, I don't need to be on the mailing list of the whatever
But that was kind of the early people they wanted to live in a state that was occupied by fellow libertarians and by
Osmosis by example by you know witness parable testimony, whatever create the
Understanding, you know, the philosophy of liberty is self-ownership, you know to have that because New Hampshire every presidential election cycle
They all come, you know, they're gonna explain it to you. Well, the free state project has been explaining it to them
So this I don't know if it's a requirement. It's a pledge. It's a pinky swear
What's the participation of people that go to the free state that actually, you know
What are you expecting them to do run for office give money do what what what yeah, we want you to come
Okay, I got three questions. What do I have to do? What can't I do? What's your conflict resolution?
Well, the first thing what you got to do is you got a hip
Okay, explain that what does that mean? Yeah
so when you sign up for the free state project at fsp.org you sign our statement of intent and
That has been basically the same since we started the whole thing
And it just says that you'll move to New Hampshire and live in New Hampshire and exert your fullest practical effort toward the creation of a
Society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of individual rights to life liberty and property
So basically fullest practical effort toward that and and that's for you to define for yourself
That could be politics. Yes, that could be running for office testifying at the legislature
giving money to candidates door knocking whatever
testifying on bills, but
And that's a very important part of what we do
But a lot of it could be things like
Entrepreneurship I'm gonna go into precious metals or cryptocurrency. I'm gonna go into homesteading
I'm gonna, you know grow the meat for the free-staters, right?
Just as he said like we've got farmers who are doing that
And actually we just passed a bill that says if you get your meat if you raise your meat locally and get it processed locally
You don't have to get USDA
Inspection so that'll be a very interesting thing to see whether the federal government respects that
So that's part of it education homeschool co-ops
You know starting private schools
Getting involved in media and communications. You mentioned free talk live all of those things
Educating the the public about the benefits of liberty just being a good neighbor being a good citizen all of that
Makes a difference and gets us closer to liberty in our lifetime
You know one interesting data point that occurs to me years and years ago
I looked at the data for the Ron Paul presidential campaign in 2008 that the primary vote shares in New Hampshire
And I had on the one on the one side
I had the number of free-staters in every town in New Hampshire back in 2008
So this is very early on only a few hundred people had moved to the state and on the other side
I had the number of votes that Ron Paul got in each town
And I just did something called regression analysis to see what's the impact and I saw that for every free-stater
That moved into a town
Ron Paul got two more votes in that same town that year and that was statistically significant
So it suggested that free-staters were in fact having an impact on their immediate neighbors
Which was the whole point of the thing that that we're gonna go in and we're going to
Reinforce the native Liberty culture of New Hampshire and and activate people to fight for freedom
Politically that was your goal politics you politician. I mean, you know, so you know talk about that when you did first did your
Presentation your paper, what did you call it? What is that thing?
I mean when you wrote this and you put out this concept and you got the web page and people started doing it
You promoted that freedom summits and we're online with it on my radio station, you know talking about it and so on
What was that paper? What motivated that being done and how did it take off?
Yeah, you could call it a manifesto of sorts
I guess and I I wrote it for your fellow Arizona and L. Neal Smith's old
Webzine the Libertarian Enterprise which I was an avid reader of at the time. Yeah, I was a 24-year-old graduate student
He was out of Colorado, but Arizona embraced him quite a bit. He seemed kind of Arizona. Oh, okay
You know what? I did not know that well Colorado Springs
Something now this is what happened. You know, I this will give you you know kind of a timestamp
Elno Smith was a science fiction writer. He passed away just a few years ago
He was a science fiction writer big Rothbardian no compromise kick butt second amendment eat meat kind of you know science fiction novelist
You know 30 40 books. I mean one of those guys. He was on the Libertarian National Committee
as a
Representative and so he was a contemporary of Rothbard and that kind of hardcore thing
And how he came to our attention in the early 90s
they had the Salt Lake City
Libertarian National Convention and he was one of the speakers and
A friend of mine that was there brows County Chair Libertarian Party here in Phoenix area at the time
And he brought back the speech that Elno Smith had done and he had a phrase in there those
North Libertarians with their phone core platform aren't be up loud. I go. Oh hell. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about
And that's back when it used to be a lot harder
Well, what happened was all the things that he was talking about the no compromise, you know the
Lean by example doing you know hardcore street activism kind was what we were doing
So he was enamored with Arizona because we had followed
you know
Exactly what he was advocating as activism for getting attention yada yada yada yada
So we haven't speak at our convention. We definitely promoted them, you know
We are you know, they go you purist and we make purist badges and go to the National Convention
You're like kind of crap. So El Niel Smith got associated with the Arizona a lot even though he was from Colorado
So that's how that happened, but I know what you're talking about and then in I think it was a 96 or 2000 convention
election year
Yeah, 2000 he and and Ben Soprano, which were on the ballot in Arizona
It was the only state of 50 that Harry Brown wasn't because National was going
Communist long story, but that's how he came to prominence and our success in Arizona Wall Street Journal comes out says the Libertarian State
Arizona it was because we embraced his hardcore
Activist tactics or we already did it and he described it. So that's why El Niel Smith
So if you're writing for the Libertarian, you know, the the enterprise because it was
1701 you know like USS Enterprise on Star Trek kind of thing that was
If you're associated with him that way then you already tell me kind of your mindset already
Yeah, yeah, I was I was a radical in many ways. I still am I just you know
My view also was that the Libertarian party isn't going to win elections
So might as well be radical and and educate people so right. Thank you. Yeah, you know
And I was I was active in the LP at the time, but I was very disappointed by the results of the 2000 election
I can already tell that the US was moving away from freedom from that 90s culture of
globalization and
Cryptography, you know, I had the you know, PGP in my signature in my keep my public key and all that stuff
you know, I was down with that I I plugged into that that culture hardcore and
I could see America was moving away from that already
But even before 9-11 and so I thought you know, we're never gonna we're never gonna take over DC
There's not gonna be a Libertarian majority in Congress and a Libertarian president
so what can we do and I even thought about
Foreign countries and territories that were English-speaking and maybe moving there, but pretty quickly was clear that
You know the citizenship rules are super strict and all that and so I was working on a dissertation on
Secessionist movements movements for regional autonomy independence around the world
And I noticed that places that had these movements got more autonomy from the central government
So we're seeing countries like Belgium UK Spain Italy
They're sending more power back to their regions
Whereas the US has gone in the opposite direction since at least the 1930s
Maybe even the 1860s taking power away from the States putting it in the federal government
And so I thought well, maybe that trend is gonna come to the US
So I thought that gave me the idea of focusing on the state level. Could we actually find a state?
where we could move
thousands of
Liberty lovers and they could get involved in the political process and in society and actually create a free society is that even
thinkable is that even possible and
I came up with the conclusion that yes
that that is doable provided these people are having an influence on their neighbors that they're they're being good neighbors
They're bringing in good ideas
And they're exerting the effort
to to build Liberty and it just took off from there a lot of people got excited about it and we we put it together
online in late 2001 and
then Walter Williams wrote about it in
2002 and he thought we should all move to Texas and then secede from the union and
You know Texas way too big a population for a libertarians to have a big impact there, but nevertheless his
syndicated column got us hundreds of signers
Back in 2002 and then all of a sudden we became a national story because we were going to choose a state
So in all the states that we were considering I was constantly doing radio TV newspaper interviews talking about
this weird wacky idea of
Maybe your state will be the one that libertarians start moving to and we ended up choosing New Hampshire for several reasons
I think a big factor was that there was a huge
Libertarian group in New Hampshire already that was lobbying for the state and they even got the governor
To endorse us to sign up as a friend and to encourage us to choose New Hampshire
And the rest is history
They encourage you to choose pick us pick us
Who got in trouble for doing that?
Yeah, well that was Craig Benson. It was the governor at the time and you know, he's he's still around
I actually had a conversation with him today
so he's obviously no longer the governor but
He he had libertarian sympathies. He said I have a lot more in common with libertarians than many of my fellow Republicans
And that fit the live-free or die spirit of New Hampshire. No general sales tax. No income tax
No seatbelt law for adults. These were things that had
some New Hampshire for decades
and
Since we started moving to New Hampshire
We've seen more and more freedom get through the legislature
You know, if you want to talk about some of the some of the stuff we've done there
I'm happy to go there. Oh my god. You got a lot of events, man. It's just
Damn, you know, you want to get social with like-minded, you know, free-state project now when we were in
At an archipelago part of my art turn
You go Ernie we got something you might be interested in all right, what law did you pass that make me interested?
You know, I
And I don't care, you know, but he goes like this. He says if you produce surplus electricity
It's now legal in New Hampshire to sell it to your neighbors and I went
Okay. Oh, there's that. Well, what happened was we had a two-acre
Horse property in Northwest Phoenix. Well, I had one, you know, like God three quarters of an acre
I just wouldn't use it as a big soccer field for my grandkids and I go, you know, I can put a bunch of solar out there
We were just getting ready, you know, do solar we're getting all solarized and need to do some solar and electricity bills and dam
Then just some solar so I'm going I could do this entire field. I'll just run electric to my neighbors
You know, they each had like two acre things
I could probably you know easy four or five of them and pay for and I can make and kind of it's all good
So I started looking at no not allowed
Why cuz cuz not allowed, you know, and I just
Seriously, I have extra electrons. I wish to share with my neighbors for a little bit a little bit
No, you're not allowed. So when Jason comes to me and says, you know, we just passed legislation that you can do that
Now something about going across the highway or Colbert under the road or whatever you got live on the right side of the
Track or something, but you know, the thing is is that
That is just a no-brainer, especially in New Hampshire that has so much
Hydroelectric they have so many springs little rivers and everything everybody's got their own little, you know
When they call him a Pella, you know
Something that they're making hydropower. So I'm going okay now here in Arizona, of course
I'm running on solar. So explain that to me
How was that allowed? Who was the opposition?
How was it overcome and what is the ultimate goal on that kind of legislation?
Yeah
So
We call it micro grids or some people call it consumer regulated electricity
We're the so far the only state in the country to have passed this basically it says if you produce your own electricity
And this could be your line of business, right? So you could set up a micro grid
And so long as you're not connecting to the main grid
The public utilities commission has no regulatory authority over you so you can sell it
You can sell it at any rate you want and they can't tell you what rates to charge
They can't tell you how much you can produce or sell they can't tell you what energy sources you can or can't use
It's up to you total total freedom
so
This is a potential solution for things like data centers
But obviously if you're building a community a residential community of like-minded people that would be another
Interesting way you could you could make use of this this legislation
We did have to make the concession that you're not allowed to run
wires across a
State road so that is a that is a limitation
But other than that we have this option now that creates real electric competition
to the
you know legacy monopoly provider and and they were the ones who opposed it I mean they were the ones who who were
Trying to to get it defeated and eventually we had to make that concession to get it passed
But you know New Hampshire's electric rates are fairly high. They're they're lower than other
neighboring states
But the Northeast in general it's pretty expensive
And so I think this is one of the things that that really drove the passage of this legislation
So this could be a solution to our energy problems this could attract manufacturers to the state and so we have a very
pro
Enterprise pro innovation legislature and governor
You know, we're moving
forward very rapidly on things like crypto development
We've legalized decentralized autonomous organizations. There's been a
legislation on advanced nuclear and apparently an executive order
I hear may be forthcoming on on advanced nuclear
We already have a large nuclear power plant that provides over 40% of our electricity
So, you know, we have that culture now in the legislature that really wants to go go go when it comes to these new
Technologies another one is right to compute so there's a bill in the legislature that would
Recognize as a constitutional principle your right to to use AI your right to create your own AI's
Which we hope is the future right of decentralized intelligence
That that could be another thing to kind of take this out of the hands of
Government and huge, you know corporate providers of AI
So this is a talk about the
Culture the attitude that's changed in the legislature and how this is the one thing that was it's unique about New Hampshire
New Hampshire has so many house of representatives that you represent only a few thousand people and everybody knows you at the
you know the grocery store and
It's like four hundred and some five hundred three. It's hundreds, you know of representatives
Then you have the Senate. Well, the senators are around around 30 or something that is
We be the Senate, you know, and we are really real here, you know, that's kind of where things happen
so the house of representatives is
The structure of it to in introduce and pass legislation and bills
How's the Senate on this?
I mean you you guys get a lot of stuff introduced
You even get a lot of stuff passed
But then you got to go up against they them those and you have such an infiltration of New England
Vermont's totally communist, you know Bernie Sanders kind of whatever Massachusetts. Oh my god, you know, New York. Oh my god, Maine
Oh my god, I mean, you know, New Hampshire is like inundated by all of these other interests
And in fact they move in there and unions and NGOs and non-governmental organizations
Doing what they were doing the funding from Boston of they got mine damn
We helped some people
During COVID and so on the love bus Liberty tour in Vermont and got a bead on how New England is run from these NGOs in Boston
They create all these federal programs qualify for if only you have to and we're ripping off taxpayers
And you're obligated and we left it to the local municipality to run it now. You're broke
I mean, I see it over and over same league of cities in towns here in the Southwest
Yeah, we control you got to have a water treatment plant 300 million dollars. You're not allowed to have a septic
I mean, I see this over and over and over
So how are you getting past the Senate? Are you changing them? Are you doing it? How's it going?
Yeah, so one of the things we didn't really think about when we chose New Hampshire that ended up being a huge benefit is the
400 representatives in the State House won for every 3,500 people that made the project scalable the first
Free State project mover to get elected to the state let the state legislature was a state house representative
Get elected as a Democrat back in 2006. This is back during that kind of
revulsion against the Bush neocon policies and
Today all the free stares in the legislature are Republicans because the Democratic Party
In New Hampshire is just as bad as the Democratic Party in Massachusetts
And they try to hunt out anyone who thinks differently as they've all moved to the the Republican Party and
I would say now about 25% of the State House is libertarian
So that's about half of the Republican Party a little less than half of the Republican Party in the state house
That's based on their voting records and in the state Senate. It's now about 15% of the state Senate is libertarian
So the state Senate was a harder nut to crack. We elected a guy back in 2010
Who was a libertarian wrong Paul guy? He only served two years
And then in the last four or five years we've elected
Six state senators who are no not six four four state senators four of 24
That are
Relatively libertarian leaning. So that's the total is 24 senators. Yeah 24 senators and they represent what 24 districts or?
Yeah, 24 districts and those districts are pretty heavily gerrymandered
So it's very difficult for the Republicans to lose that majority
Whereas the state house because there's so many districts. He can't gerrymander them. So that tends to flip back and forth between parties
So it's it's worked out where we are now making progress in the Senate is much more establishment
Even though they only make a hundred dollars a year just like the state reps
They tend to be more professional politicians, you know people who have aspirations of running for governor or they they've been mayors
things like that so they tend to listen more to the lobbyists and
It's it's been a harder nut to crack
but in some ways it's a positive to have two houses that are so different from each other because it means that if we ever lose one of
Those houses there. They actually really do service checks and balances on each other. The other thing I'll note about the neighboring states
Them all being blue is actually an unlooked-for benefit for us in New Hampshire because there are a lot of Republicans and Liberty
Types in New England. They're just out voted everywhere
And so they move to New Hampshire. New Hampshire is the only place for them to go
And so what we've seen is that since 2020 all these
You know political analysts who look at these data sets like catalyst and so on what they've told us
Is that the migration to New Hampshire has been net Republican since 2020?
Not surprising now, you know, one of the things that's different you go to New Hampshire the first thing that I realized
You go to the cash register you go buy, you know clothes a hat, you know a canteen
You know and some scissors I mean whatever the hell you go get stuff
You put it on there and whatever the price is on the shelf is what you pay. There's no sales tax
I know you know that there's no sales tax. Okay, you know, that's cool and you go, but it just it just dawned on me
I don't have to do math. I know how much it's gonna cost
It's like comes off that that's just psychologically that I've never been used that keeps changing all the time wherever you go
It's six percent seven percent a billion percent. It's good, you know, whatever it says on the shelf
That's what you pay at the register
All right. All right. All right. All right. The other thing is
No personal income tax, you know in New Hampshire, but where do they get you?
Property tax man, they're gonna get you get some there
But if you have at least I know it's 10 12 15 acres or something like that if you structure it in such a way and
You throw a cow on it or a pig or something, you know your agriculture within it drops a great deal
So you need to know that going there how to protect yourself against, you know high taxes
And if you're renting or whatever you're paying the property taxes just get over it
So talk about the tax structure now, of course all this time
There's always some bill state legislature. They'll live free or die state. They definitely want to get that out
They're like, no, we got there's always a bill to kind of do away with that, you know phrase for some reason
There's always we need an income tax. There's always we need some more, you know
tax taxes some tax and increase the tax so the idea
That people living in New Hampshire are protected against income
Sales tax and you can kind of finagle your property tax. How much under attack that is
How does that affect the spending and any deficit if there is explain that?
Yeah, so
You know as far as I'm concerned. I am happy for left-wing Democrats to keep talking about an income tax and
Abolishing live free or die because every time they talk about that it mobilizes the conservatives and independence in New Hampshire to oppose them at the ballot box
so, you know that that kind of
Granite heart of New Hampshire is solid
I've talked to Democrats in my town including one of our state reps and he said, you know
I I moved here for the low taxes
we want to keep the low taxes that is that is a
Part of the culture of New Hampshire, and I don't think that will ever change
Yes, the tax structure is extremely
Decentralized because it's heavily relies on property taxes
So about two-thirds of total tax collections in New Hampshire are decided at the town level
Not just the county level, but the town level and towns are tiny so you can choose your mix of
Public services and taxes that you want to pay
If you want to live in a town with really fancy schools and a town beach that they maintain and things like that
And pay high property taxes for the privilege
Then you're certainly free to do that if you want to live out in the woods
Get ten acres put your land into current use, which is the the the
Strategy you were talking about there Ernie
And they don't they have low cost of living don't spend a lot on their schools
You can pay very very little in property taxes
In fact, there are some places in New Hampshire where you pay next to nothing in property taxes
But they don't you know, they don't have any kids things like that
So so that is one of the other advantages actually of New Hampshire's you have a lot of choice of government
You can choose what kind of government you want to live under
You know I wanted I want to share this one
example when we were there
During the Ron Paul revolution of 07 and 8
We were there a week before Christmas
Then we had Christmas New Years and we came back a week after for another week and you know deal with primary
That particular year it was record snow falls 137 inches. Oh my god
Man are we locked in are we you know here on the cabin on the lake forever and how we got stuff to do
What happened is by God 6 7 in the morning all the roads are clear now we were in Boston before that I
Visited on you know personal stuff before and it was you know the city shuts down
I mean you know said New Hampshire is different and this is why I go like how did they do this?
What what's going on? They don't count on the municipal, you know, you have you know the town
You got the county the state they'll do highways or this or that way
But the vast majority of the roads that got cleared or by the people that live there
They just got they got they
They they're pickup truck and four-wheel drive has got a snowpile on the front for six months just the way it is
So what happens is it's free market and then when you get you know free staters coming in they go
I will plow your road your parking lot your school your whatever business of you know for that'll be a hundred and fifty dollars
But if you pay in silver or crypto is a hundred dollars, you know
Man you start getting it in the economy. They figured that out
So this is how I experienced New Hampshire even before the free state
You know it was really you know taken off by then it already started and it was just so awesome
To see the people didn't wait for the government
That's why it was done so fast and the reason is because like you say it's disperse population
It's out in the middle of we don't even know you're there
And if you're not doing or got a neighbor doing it don't get done in time
So it's just part of the culture. They don't expect you know, well, yeah here in Arizona
We get californicated you have some small towns got it going on and you know, it's a mining lumber and and
You know logging of whatever the hell that they're doing their tourism and then here comes all the politicians
They get run out of California. They come over to get californicated. They're like you
You don't have sidewalks. Where's your street lights? Where's the park stuff there?
Yeah, man, you got a mandate of government pursuit of happiness is government's job to make you happy and I'm going
Oh, man, you you're killing us. New Hampshire did not go down that road
They do not expect now, of course all the states around them and people probably screaming it
But I want you to explain that phenomenon. How is it that New Hampshire is so much more reliant?
Locally, what is at the core of that being inundated by status? How is that possible?
Yeah, I think it goes back to what Alexis to Tocqueville talked about in democracy in America
And he traveled throughout the US
But he was particularly fascinated by New England because he noticed that in New England
The towns were the center of everything so people would get together with their neighbors to solve crimes and and to
build roads and to clear snow and everything like that
was a town affair a neighborhood affair and
People knew that they had to rely on each other as neighbors and so it built that culture of what?
Political scientists sometimes call social capital right where there's it's a high-trust society
Where you engage with your neighbors to get to get things done and yes
plowing is largely a free market in New Hampshire, so the roads themselves unless they're private roads
Town governments will plow, but yeah, you hire your your plow guy or you do it yourself
Trash pickup is not done by municipalities. I've never seen trash be a municipal function in New Hampshire. We have
Private providers for profit providers who sell trash pick up to you and you have your choice
This is a cultural thing. Where did that come from?
Well, you know, I it's just across the border a like that
Yeah, yeah, you know, you'd be surprised. There are some parts of
Maine and Vermont and and even parts of Massachusetts, especially Western mass that still have a lot of that
But yeah, it is disappearing in a lot of those places. I think it is a holdover from
when
You just didn't have these services provided by government
So you built alternative institutions to do it
And if you didn't have government providing these things then civil society in the market took took its place
And it's kind of hard to get that back once you've lost it
Yeah, I and it's under attack by whom what?
Yeah, you know, I think it's a
Part of it is people being lazy, right? So part of it is people wanting a free lunch voters wanting a free lunch
You know wanting a large institutions to just take care of them without having to think about it and solve problems for themselves
But yeah, part of it is also just
You know, we we ended up making some mistakes and I've seen this with
with how states set up their finances where
Cities and school districts and so on have become dependent on state governments
So state governments have grown a lot in size and power over the last hundred years
Not just the federal government state governments, too
and
they
Get their hands in the in the in the pie and are redistributing wealth across
Cities across counties and they're doing it because in some cases in response to court decisions in some cases
In response to to interest groups in the legislature that that lobby for this, you know, you mentioned the League of Cities
you know
In every state I've been in there. They're a lobbyist for state money
And for lack of accountability at the local level and certainly we have some problems with that even in New Hampshire with our
Municipal Association, so we're fighting them
Seems like every year in the legislature
So, yeah, those are those are some of the factors that that that you've seen and
Most states including the state where I grew up, Texas
You've seen, you know, state government get involved and local governments and and people in neighborhoods have become dependent on
the state and federal governments and for whatever reason maybe it's just
Lots of checks and balances that never happened really in New Hampshire
And so everything is kind of remained at the town level for the most part and and people have adapted to it
What do you mean they've adapted to it they had adopted it became cultural thing
Yeah, so they live for your dying doctor nation right after the pledge or something. I mean, you know, how's that done?
I think it's just that people have created alternative solutions for themselves. So, you know, they know that
Their school budget is going to be funded locally. So people pay close attention to how the school is performing
You know this when you were preparing your paper. Is this stuff that was consideration or not?
I knew I knew nothing about that. I knew very little about New Hampshire. I lived in Connecticut at the time
I just knew that's where the mountains were and that seemed kind of cool. Well, how did it do Hampshire? I mean was that
You know one that was on top of your list as you were doing this
How did New Hampshire come to the fore in the beginning of the Free State project with the 5,000 that voted to begin with?
Yeah, so it wasn't me personally
I was open to go wherever except my wife said we're not going to Alaska
Which was kind of a pity because I thought oh Alaska might be kind of neat that might you know, especially if you're interested in
Independence, but yeah, so we so we opted out of Alaska, but we were open to the other states
But really yeah, I was any different. I mean damn
Freaking cold man. It's freaking cold. I like the climate. I know I know not everyone does and yes
New Hampshire has has longer winters than a lot of other places
But you know, I like some cold and snow. I like seasons and it is
Very nice people take care of business. Yeah, you know, I like I like the balsam furs and the types of
Plants that you get up north, you know, that just appeals to me somehow. There's something that feels kind of rugged and independent about it
But yeah, I was it was really that there was a very strong libertarian party in New Hampshire at the time
They'd even elected some people to the state legislature on fusion balance. So they were got elected as libertarian Republicans
Don Gorman was kind of the godfather of the libertarian movement there and in New Hampshire
And he was on the Libertarian National Committee for a while and a lot of those folks got very involved
They held an event called escape to New Hampshire in 2003 that prefigured pork fest
So that was some people called pork fest zero is held at Rogers campground and in Lancaster and was meant to showcase the state
I didn't go to that event. I went to the Grand Western conference in Missoula, Montana
Which is held at the same time by Western state advocates to try to advocate for you know, Montana or Wyoming or a state like that
And our vice president went to the escape to new to New Hampshire
But that was that was what swayed the voters really was all the effort New Hampshire people put in to tout the benefits of the state and
To get the governor supportive to talk about the low taxes to talk about the you know
Personal freedoms that New Hampshire had to offer at that time and that really swayed the voters
Well, you're a young in I mean, you're not that old. I was a everybody called me kid till I was 40
But you know, I'm I you were college student. I mean, were you surprised the adoption of the concept? I
Was I really hoped when I wrote the paper that someone more experienced than I would would pick up on it and that we could hire
this sort of you know
Experienced non-profit libertarian executive to run this thing but that didn't happen and to this day
The Free State Project has been a very grassroots organization. We depend on volunteers. We don't have a huge annual budget
We do have a full-time executive director Eric Brakey was former formerly a state senator in in Maine and to take this job
He moved to New Hampshire and he's the biggest booster of New Hampshire
Out there because he's seen where Maine has gone and New Hampshire's gone in the opposite direction
So we we are able to put things together and have our annual events that the porcupine freedom festival in summer and
Liberty form and winter and continue recruiting people to New Hampshire. We do outreach events and especially in neighboring states
We go to gun shows. We go to health freedom events. We go to
homeschool
Exposed and we talked about the Free State Project and not everyone's interested
But some people are and and we present our ideas and a lot of them end up signing up and and moving to New Hampshire
So we encourage people to visit first
Ernie you showed all the events that are happening all the time if you go to
Fsp org slash calendar. You'll see what's going on in the state
You can drop us a line and we're happy to show you around and and show you what's happening
It's very exciting. You can kind of find your tribe find your community in New Hampshire
That's been one of the real personal benefits of getting involved in the Free State Project is
Being able to form a community. It's not just all about the policy change
It's really about
You know finding finding people who are good friends and whom you stand behind and who will stand by you
Lots of events anytime I go there
You know matter of fact we had a good friend of mine that was from Mass to right across the border
I can't remember the name of the town, but
Kings were something anyways just south of the border there in fact he goes New Hampshire and goes shopping
You know it goes to you know, but the
I wanted him to meet the guys up there
So he became friends with you know Derek and Jay and you know with the port fast
And so I've been trying to get him to go for a decade and he retired, you know from his job here
And you know he goes there he joined the quill and you know
He doesn't get to make use of it all that much or a thing
But that wasn't the point it was to be supportive of the concept support that which you want to see more of
but
What's the one thing I don't want to see more more politics man you
But that doesn't mean I don't run I mean I stopped voting no too because I know better, but
You know I've run for Congress three times US Senate against McCain Secretary of State twice legislate guy
I'm a runner. Whoo, man. I'll be running. Hello. I got an argument
So I see that as an opportunity, but you guys are going for the win
They'll get in and get something done. Well
How's that working out? I mean my advocacy was go there be an entrepreneur lead your life another thing like Patrick
General contractor for building. You don't need a license. Hey, I'll build your house. Okay. We'll get your house over here and build it
Okay, I'm going what how the hell did they manage to get away with that? Well, you know because I don't know
New Hampshire it's this attitude. It's this mindset
Even though you got a lot of liberal whatever we want to take your money and property taxing crease to do what I want to do with it
Whatever, but the people at least it's local they get involved and I've seen what different individuals there in their small community of
Oh, no, it's a free stator. How can we get them? Let's let's attack them for something
I mean oh, we got an ordinance for something then they push back then everybody comes in
You know, which is why Crosby the owner of Rogers campground up has been defending the free state project having their festival and up
There against the man, you know for a long time and he's in his god late 80s or something now
You know he needs some props, but the
idea
That you're willing to resist
Resistance is not futile. You're willing to push back. You're willing to help a neighbor
You're willing to go to their hearings. You're willing to go and protest and have and whatever. Oh my god, maybe even boat, but
Is there a place for just osmosis, you know, I'm a good neighbor
I'm sponsored the local little league team, you know
I'm you know, yes
I am libertarian and I'm here to help to run to run, but I don't give a crap about politics
Or is it you took a nose some bitch you move here. You better get your ass out there and work
So what is of course your preference is making you get that power-sharing thing, you know
I give you props for that because that was kind of surprising, but you know
Are the others welcome or you damn it? You're not doing it, right?
You better get busy and doing the business of politics. What's your view?
You're all welcome. So long as you support a free society living our lifetime
That's that's who we want. No one's gonna check up on you. No one's gonna say
You know, you're not you're not doing it doing enough
People are not gonna do that. So it's really up to you
But what you know what I will say is
There's nothing quite like having an idea for getting government out of the way
Taking that idea to a legislator and it gets in the law
you know a year later and
That's happened to me a few times the first time it happened was when I
Notice that New Hampshire had this provision where if you wanted to start a moving company
You wanted to move household goods like if people's you know, you're moving house
You in every state you've got to get a bond and file something with the state
But in New Hampshire like about 25 other states
You also had to go through a public hearing where your competitors were first notified about this
And that seemed absurd right just to come completely anti-competitive
So I just went to a legislator at a New Hampshire Liberty Alliance
Summit where where you get to talk to legislators and I said, you know, can we do something about this?
So it got written up sail through the house on a voice vote sail through the Senate on a voice vote
The governor signed it and now if you want to start that kind of company, you know
Your red tape is dramatically reduced
So that's the kind of thing that you can do where you know
It's just a clean win for Liberty and it's not even that much work
And people are doing this all the time work. We're we're scour there are hundreds of people
Scouring the law books for things we can get rid of every year and
We're about to get rid of them that New Hampshire was well known for fully informed jury
That kind of thing you know the the juries
Here in Arizona, we really pushed that one and what happened was we had a state legislator
You know in door we got a lot of attention that moved the furthest in the nation of oh my god, Arizona
But it was heavily opposed they went after you're not allowed
so we kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it in a lot of different activist ways and
Finally it came out to where it made it up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court issues this, you know
Not even in a lawsuit. They just you know, I this is our opinion get over it
Yes, you have the power to nullify the law as a juror and just vote not guilty
but
We have no obligation to tell you so get over it, you know, so I was like you sons of bitches
Well, that was the whole point is that in New Hampshire you have a criminal case
You go now if your sense of justice is that you know, yeah, maybe he did it, but it
Stupidly applied or done the injustice to the voting vote not guilty
Now is that still there that you are as a juror informed that you can vote not guilty?
Yeah, it is still there
So if the defense has to bring it up
I believe but if the defense at trial brings it up the judge has to give an instruction to the jury that
Yes, they do have this right and that was enacted in 2011 after a bunch of free status got elected to the legislature for the very first time
You know the first time we had double-digit number of free status in the legislature
So that was that was a big win. Just you know one of dozens
That I that I could talk about and and I think New Hampshire still might be unique on that one
I I've been on props that was you know just out of principle, you know that yeah
You have that power that we're not gonna tell you into the point that defense attorneys were getting trouble
They get bar complaints. I mean they they definitely did not want you knowing that that's stupid not guilty
Well, he did it. So what I don't care. It's dumb not guilty
so that concept is there anybody you say not guilty all you want but they
You will follow my instructions of the judge or or some bad will happen to you. I mean, you know, it's just I hate this shit
so this is
You get the power you surplus generation of power you can sell to your neighbors score you have local
Funding with their local property taxes for the children and the schools and so on home schooling is a big thing
It's not that big a deal to do there. You have
Fully informed juries, you know for when you get criminally charged with whatever you go to trial
You have so it seems like the people in New Hampshire
Doesn't have that much, you know problem with local state government
Which means that the feds are you know extra diligent and making sure that this doesn't spread as a mind virus
How far off have my
Yeah, I think you're right. That is going to be the hardest nut to crack the federal government
So what can we do in New Hampshire to insulate ourselves from craziness that happens there?
I mean, I've been writing about
Practical ways that a state could opt out of social security for example. It's a pretty radical idea
I think it's a good one though and as the federal government gets more and more bankrupt
I think
They're gonna start to take a look at this
They're gonna start to let states go because they're gonna have no choice. They're not gonna have the money to basically enforce
Securities regulation and drug laws and gun laws and everything else
I mean they can't enforce drug laws right now. I mean that's that there are federal drug laws
The federal government can't enforce them and so it really falls on the states
What happens when all of the federal government is that way? So I think
You know, there's an effort here for the state to really kind of push the envelope and actually I'll mention another
Area where we actually are doing that right now
With respect to the FDA New Hampshire has passed the most extensive right to try law in the country
For people who have a life-threatening illness
so you don't have to get any FDA approval to
market sell and administer a
Drug that has been made in state. So, you know, if it hasn't crossed state lines
You can
market and administer to to patients with a life-threatening illness and there's
There are civil liability
Productions built in as well if you've gotten informed consent from the patient
They can't sue you on the grounds that this isn't FDA approved
So we'll see how this works
But the idea is that we're gonna attract frontier biotech to the state because they know they don't have to go through this
multi-billion-dollar process of getting
Well, that also applies to things like you're just like going down the Bill of Rights and
Plots we have liberty self ownership kind of thing, you know
Guns, you know, how's gun rights in New Hampshire? Yeah, so we're the number one to a state in the country
I don't think that's controversial. We have virtually no gun laws
the only gun law
we have is
Well, we have two gun laws actually I've just learned about a second one
so we have a law that says you're not allowed to carry a
Firearm into a courthouse as a private citizen. Okay, you can carry them into schools
You can carry them into voting booths bars wherever without a permit concealed open whatever
But not into a courthouse. You can carry them into the state house
Concealed not open as a private citizen
Then I also understand there's another law that says that
Felon gun ownership so you're not allowed to own a gun as a felon and I believe our law is slightly
broader than the federal law I've been I've been told that that is the case so we have those two gun laws
Otherwise, there are no restrictions
Essentially like we don't have even minimum age limits for
You know owning or carrying
Firearms we don't have and you know restrictions on on where you can go beyond on
Training certification permit reciprocal whether that kind of BS. No, it's all constitutional carry open or concealed
boom
Boomity boom boom without a boom. Yeah, this is this is you know, give me some other
Examples that New Hampshire's enticing to Liberty lovers, you know, it's
what about
building permits and you know
Self-construction of my land, you know, my castle bite me. I mean, you know, how's that go?
Yeah, so this is something I work on a lot and it's actually one of the areas where in some respects
New Hampshire is below average still worse than average because
We allow our towns a lot of room to pass zoning regulations
And many of them have passed very stringent zoning regulations
And I think a lot of that has to do with Republican fear of big cities and to dense development
So we have some very strict minimum lot sizes and things like that
So if you want to subdivide your land, they can be difficult
But last year the state passed 17 bills to ease building on your own land
And so there are many many things we did
17 17 why what the hell what was the gist of the whole thing?
Yeah, so
You can now build an
ADU accessory dwelling unit or in-law apartment
Attached or detached on your land if you have a single-family home and it's by right. They cannot
Hold up the permit. You can just go in to the building department. They have to give you a permit
Yeah, you don't have to get a building permit
It's a shallow issue. I mean kind of thing. It's all issue. It's shallow. This is here in southeastern Arizona
Cochise County up a Mexican border east of Tucson. They have a county that it's called the opt-out
You can go in and get a permit
To not get any more permits. No, no shit is that you know
See that's why I'm
How about I didn't get a permit to not get any more permits I didn't need a permit about that how about that
We do have a number of towns that technically require a building permit
But in fact, they have no building inspectors so you can effectively do whatever you want
And so I've actually known people who've built their own houses as a guy
I know I'm the town of Grafton who's who built a house with
you know, basically
Concrete walls. It's like the thing is a bunker
And he didn't you know, he didn't get any perp pull any permits or get any inspections
He just he just built it gradually and it's it's actually a nice house now
Now what else well outside of any kind of municipal jurisdiction is there a lot of open land that's not in a municipality?
No, not a lot. There is some but unlike the West we don't have a lot of unincorporated land
So most of the land is inside incorporated municipalities, but we do have some unincorporated townships
They're called
Including one interesting place one of those townships is completely private
So it is a it's not for everyone because it's a it's like a homeowners Association
but they have a
Virtually zero property taxes and you'll pay like a few hundred bucks a year. I think in property tax
And it's it's called hails location. It's like a golf community. It's actually a nice place
They've got a hotel and restaurant on on site there
And and the houses are kind of expensive and obviously the homeowners Association might restrict what you build
But there's no there's no zoning. There's no building department or anything like that because it's all private
But there are also other places in the far north country where there is no land use regulation
There's there's no planning board. There's no
Zoning board and you can essentially do what you want
And in many of those places also have ultra low property taxes because there's very little infrastructure
In fact, there are some townships that have no population right now
So theoretically, you know, it's privately owned land. Most of its logging companies and stuff like that
Sometimes, you know campgrounds with just people who are there seasonally no permanent population
You could go there buy some land put up a house and pay zero property tax and have no one bothering you at all
So that's definitely something that is possible in a few places still in New Hampshire
as we have
technology allows for, you know, good communication you got communication you have
Generation of power hell they got mobile freakin nuclear reactor units now. I mean, it'll be you know
You know
Thorium reactor molten salt reactor you put on the back of a semi and you have a small township and
We're done with you all we do our own thing you get, you know a few shipping containers a lot
Caponics growing through I mean technology is getting to the point that whatever reason you have for this government
We have to save you and you don't know how to do it and we want you to keep breathing in and out and you
got to vote
Go it away just as a concept and to have the free state project setting this example and then these kind of
Abilities to be
un molested by the man
That is part of the culture in New Hampshire is an example. It's a bad example for the status
They're like these people are living free. They're so freakin not allowed. You might inspire somebody
So this is when the people go there
Just by them being there and supportive of you know leave me alone as them
Is infectious?
How is it?
impacted the locals now, you know, there's a lot of consternation, you know, you have the
couchsurfing
Poverterian first
Mover anarchist, you know, I'm an anarchist support me kind of thing that goes there
They do a lot of activism. They kind of you know scare the horses and you know, whatever
But as time goes on I've seen it happen like a pork fest dude
You got to go with next year dude. We got to go to pork fast dude. So we could
Walk around with our AR 15s on our back dude
Well, then you get that
It goes a couple of years
These same people get married start having a couple of kids a hey
Can you have your naked zombie dancing over there? I mean, I got my kids here, you know be a little responsible
So it starts to mature a little bit start to weed out, you know people that are you know
Just causing problems because you know, they got you know mental social
Whatever issues it matures. It's gotten to that point
That I'm seeing a lot more
Maturity in why do you think we moved here? It's not that you know scare the horses
It is to live free. Well, they do that by
Example they start to like a good neighbor a free stator is here
Then you have the COVID thing happen, you know
Who's there most willing to help and you're talking about the moving thing anybody that moves to New Hampshire?
You get a moving party shows up and takes care of business. So I'm just this
Example has what impact even on your detractors, you know, who are your detractors?
What's the organized it because there is an organized effort against free-staters. You're not communist enough
So I'm just you know, what is the mood of the opposition have the people there the the
Indigenous people they starting to embrace adopt start to come over they go to your parties
Give me the integration of the two cultures there
You know one of our long-term state reps who's not not a free-state in the sense that he didn't move to the state
But he's you know very supportive of our ideas
once told me
You guys have made a real positive difference to New Hampshire, especially the normal by comparison ones
And he meant by that I kind of there was a sort of funny
t-shirt that some folks
Put on one year at pork fest that said normal by comparison on the front
I think it was sort of self-deprecating. We're only normal by comparison with the you know
Stoner civil disobedience types that you were talking about there Ernie
So yeah, I think a lot of the the people who were you know shouting at people in bull
You know with bull horns and you know leaving their couch in the front yard and stuff like that and not taking off their hat
And court and and just creating creating a ruckus
They've they've grown up. They've matured. They've moved on to strategies that actually make a positive difference
So I think there's been a lot of learning there, but I will say that
The left in New Hampshire is just as bad as the left in Massachusetts. I mean they
They want income taxes. They want gun control. They want rent control. They want, you know, they want big government
Across the board actually and you know, I've been funded that is not organic. That is something else. What is that?
That's a good question. I mean, you know, I do think some of it is outside funded
We know for a fact that these Soros linked think tanks are funding the free stater
hater groups like Granite State Matters and Granite State Progress
their people work who paid full-time to follow around the free state project and
denounce us and
Protest us. There's an enemy's list that one of them created and
hundreds of you know known or suspected free staters. I mean, it's
Literally McCarthyism reborn, but it's now it's the communists doing it and and
Yeah, so that's you know, those people
Flip their lids if you're a if you're a free stater and you come out as a free stater and you're a proud free stater
And you're running for office. These people will flip their lids and they will go after you and I experienced that myself running for planning board in my town and
Planning board you want to be a planner? What kind of crap is that? I wanted to de-plan
Well your association with
American Institute for economic research, I guess you say air, you know, you can't live without air
I mean, you know, how do you pronounce that?
We usually say AIER, but that's hard to say too
Yeah, well tell me about it. You know the how is it that you're promoting that? What was it do?
Yeah, so we are one of the nation's oldest think tanks and
We would claim to be the nation's premier classical liberal research institution
so we were founded in 1933 by Colonel E. C. Harwood on the campus of MIT and
He wanted to fight FDR's gold confiscation order and so from the very beginning we've had an interest in sound money
and
monetary policy and
Now we're much broader
so we work on economic freedom in general and we also have a project we call defending freedom combating
Collectivism we're really taking on the new threats to freedom coming from both the left and the right now
You may have noticed that a lot of these
national conservatives and post liberals are advocating
tariffs and trade protectionism and
industrial policy and
Forsaking our free market heritage that really
American conservatives have always believed in up until now and so we're fighting that
And so you can check us out at AIER.org
We also have a daily publication analyzing economic trends and policy issues in the news
It's very useful if you're in business or in public policy
It's called the daily economy and you can find that at the daily economy org
Tell me about your role in the Free State project, I mean, I know you
You started it, you know, you're associated with it, but you know, it's it's
Hopefully has taken on a life of its own
By the people that come and just be it, you know, if you got a have, you know
convention the secret handshake of whatever and we're doing this and
We've all voted and you have to and you lost and we gotta something some central plan for freedom
I know there's no central plan for freedom. I'm just saying but you know
What's your role in the Free State project other than its creator or advocate is there they look, you know
Well, what does Jason say, you know, Jason said that you know, you're doing it wrong Jason said
I mean, is there any of that? Tell me what kind of influence you have in the concept. Oh
You know, we're libertarians so we disagree with each other plenty, you know
How many how many libertarians can dance on the edge of a pen is always a discussion. Yeah, yeah
There's there's some of that says some of that that happens. Although there's not a lot of that that purity debate about
basic philosophical principles
But sometimes you get debate about who is or isn't a real libertarian
I mean, I mean it wouldn't be a libertarian group if you didn't have that and you know
We've had some folks who kind of fall off the left edge of the map
We've had some folks who fall off the right edge of the map
I don't know if you notice that national politics these days have gotten kind of crazy and they're you know
There are people who these minds have been kind of rotted by social media and are now like, you know black people
Pansion
You know when you say libertarian, you know, I mean think of this
This is one thing that I realized certainly since the revolution when you say libertarian
Nobody thinks of the libertarian party
And they think of Ron Paul or their local libertarian guy or the philosophy or you know that was shrug something, you know
Libertarian part voting cap. What you know, yeah, is that your experience? That's been my experience. Yeah
I think it is the way things are now, which is healthy
you know people have gotten away from thinking about the libertarian party much more over the last 20 years because
You know, it's it's become become irrelevant
You know, I'm glad that there's someone for me to vote for for president every four years
I guess not that it matters that much, but
You know what we found in New Hampshire
Yeah
We found in New Hampshire the party doesn't doesn't matter as much
You know, you can get elected at the local level we can get involved in lots of different ways
without a party label or through the Republicans and
so so yeah, I mean my
Free State project is a 501c3 nonprofit. So we're you know, we're a public charity
We're educating people about the benefits of living free in New Hampshire. It's not does mean your contributions are tax deductible
But we don't take any money from government never have never will
We've never taken any money from corporations except for like sponsorships of events
It's just not not where our focus is we're a very grassroots organization
So I am on the board of directors of the Free State projects
That's kind of my role is is to be a strategic voice
In kind of keeping us true to principle, you know, we want people who are real libertarians
They believe in both political freedom personal freedom and economic freedom strictly limited government at most
You know, we welcome anarchists too and so I want to make sure that we continue that
individualist pro-liberty heritage and
keep our strategy of
Getting people more people to New Hampshire and getting us close to living our lifetime
You know
Before you go, I wanted to get kind of a beat on you know the demographic and what the appeal would be
I
Just come out of college. I'm young. I maybe I got a degree
I don't got a good degree or I'm a tradesman. I actually know how to do something you can get a job anywhere that way but the
Or you just start in a family you have a family or you're retired or
You start of the family. They're kind of getting raised your 40. Whatever and you want to start a business, you know
these starting life
Starting life, you know having children
Starting a business
retiring
What's the draw for each of those and which one of those you think is the most
Desired and which ones are coming to New Hampshire the most
Yeah, so I think it's probably in some ways hardest for young people in their 20s establishing a career
So that's I'm starting with the worst first
Because you know, we don't have any big cities. We don't have huge employers
so if you're trying to
establish yourself as
Someone, you know top in your field
Then your field is gonna be real small in New Hampshire
So that's that's what's tough, you know our housing costs are kind of high because it's a desirable state to live in
I mentioned the zoning laws. We're trying to work on
Or a barrier to housing so that's another reason why it can be tougher for young people
We find a lot of people move to New Hampshire when they have kids because we have great schools
We have you know private as well as as public and we have
You know homeschooling we have school choice programs
So, you know some of your property taxes will be returned to you for your homeschool expenses, which is wonderful and
So I find for families New Hampshire is a great place low crime
Natural beauty. It's a very healthy state good culture
Right your kids are going to be around other kids who are well adjusted by and large
And so for families New Hampshire is a great place to end up. I think also for retirees if you enjoy
the the New England Ocean and the lakes and the skiing and the mountains a
Lot of people move to New Hampshire when they retire because they enjoy those activities
It's a great place to invest and it's just going to become a better place
If you think about where your best investment opportunities are they're the places that might not be great quite yet
But that are going to be great, right because that's not under attack all the time, you know, right
So, you know, I think you know for if I knew of course
You always say this I knew when I was in my 20s raising a family what I know now, you know
I'd be doing what I'm doing now occupy the layout, you know building, you know for
Generation next it's time and pressure and all of a sudden you got posh mahal and the health and enjoyment of doing it
Well for New Hampshire, it seems like, you know, you kind of right off the young that don't have skills a lot
Anybody's got any trade skills. They know how to, you know, drive a nail or, you know
The difference between a Phillips or you know flat-head screwdriver, you know, they win, you know
But the and you can be a handyman without anything you know you can be a you know freaking contractor, you know
You know how to do something we'll get her doing. Well, the thing is is that when you have the opportunity for a young
Couple or even just a young man or woman, you know, I
Got three acres of it. Oh, it's got wood on it
I chopped this down. I get a mill and I build a house
I got a nice nest for a little birdie
It wants to share my life with me boom and I've seen that happen
There was one young man that was a welder. He welded he built him a home
Little birdie say hey, man, I'd be living with you. Boom problem solved, you know
So I I wouldn't write it off for the young if it's framed properly to where you can invest your energy
And all that testosterone and estrogen in to build my house get your ass over here doing it and then you're done
Yeah, family that's how it used to be and it seems like New Hampshire
Especially with your you know, so your electricity, you know that kind of attitude and then
Jason's going to be on the planning committee to say I get to have my own plan
You know, you know what my plan is my plan is you get to have your own plan. I
Vote for that. Let's do that. You know, so this is
Very enticing in my mindset now for a young
Energetic person that has so much social opportunities like your schedule
So I wouldn't write off the young 20-somethings, you know for that it because you coming out of Yale
You know with your mindset if I won't get a job, you know, how about I just want to build like yeah
I'm in a camper for a year. So I don't want to get a lot of opportunity there
I don't want to discourage anyone from moving to New Hampshire
Certainly don't want to discourage young people. In fact, a lot of young people have moved to the to New Hampshire for the FSP
A lot of them moved up when Ron Paul was running for president. They were, you know, college students work on his campaign
They just never left and some of those people are still my friends. So yes, there is opportunity for young people
I just want people to be aware of the challenges that they might face when they move to the state
So yes build skills build construction skills welding
You know those types of skills are great in in the New Hampshire market because those skills are in short supply
And you'll make a good wage. You can support yourself on that
And it's a portable job, right? You can you can do that in a number of different parts of the state
So yes, there is a definite pathway here for young people
And it seems more open to entrepreneurial efforts for
Even the what do you call them the farmers markets or parking swaps or just you know
Promoting your own I made it myself
Hygiene products coffee of vibe do widgets and gizmos and 3d printed something, you know, it's just it's like, you know
Every lemonade stand gets stopped at you know, it's that attitude. It's that mindset
This is something that I think is really should be emphasized. You could start
a life there without a lot of states you go to it's like their
Anti-life and the way that like I ran when she said, you know being pro-life or your anti-life
It wasn't an abortion issue. It was it was
Living your pro-living. I'm allowed to take my life and put it towards living and
If you're have somebody attacking that wanting to take all of your
Production all of your effort
Collectivize it in on their balance sheet and it's not yours because we said so and passed a law then your
Anti-life and I'm seeing that my experience with New Hampshire over the decades has been it's pro life pro living and
against anti-life people so this is a
A good interview now we have before you go there is always a
Summer festival the porcupine freedom fester did it and it's kind of morphed into different things and
Outsquitted of whatever, but it's really there's an opportunity now for people to
Experience it not just to go to the camping and campground
But to kind of travel around and the people that actually living there to see different communities to look at different bills
To look at what families have constructed what towns are doing you know this kind of look
We want you to not just come and party and
But you know to actually go and experience New Hampshire before you go tell us about it
What do you think's gonna happen this summer?
Yeah, so we've just announced it porkfest is going to take place all over the state a lot of people will still be
Camping at Rogers campground, but we won't be holding events there instead. The events will be sponsored by
the eight Liberty club houses that are all over the state the quill is one of them in Manchester, which came up earlier and
Some people private individuals will be running buses as well
So you can come to New Hampshire and explore the state. There will also be prizes for those who go to all eight club houses
So it is going to be a decentralized festival this year and the third week of June and you can
See more information about that coming up soon at porkfest.com. That's P o r c
FES T.com
porkfest.com and it has the only reason I've heard about it because you know, I'm interested in such things and he sent me
One of them you know at Jay's home where
You know a free stator there that well known and he has a lot of facility and so I'm going well
It's going to be there really are you gonna do it? Well, it's kind of a hub for one of the visits and I'm going
Yeah, that's very cool. That would be a great ad, you know
So I'm and he's processed a lot of young people come through he's trained to be
You know useful in a lot of ways and then they go on and you know that their life and that's kind of you know
What he does, but I'm it's been a big inspiration and
I got one more question
Why why did you write that paper? What was what prompted you to do that? I
Couldn't stand thinking that these ideas had no hope that there'd be no hope of of actually
living in a free society and
Moving the ball toward that. So
You know, I thought it was something that could work
I I didn't think that it would work
but I thought that it might and even that little chance made me think it was worth a try and
Turns out
You know, I appreciate your hope is a powerful emotion
Hope is powerful. Just just you know, I remember at the end. I think was the
Out of the third matrix or something and he's battling Smith in that mud pit, you know in the matrix and you're going
Why mr. Anderson? Why must you persist? Why do you know you're gonna fail? Why why why mr. Anderson?
Because I choose to
Jason Soren chose to so Jason Soren's I'm really appreciative that you chose to
Because you already I'm glad I did too
Peace brother. Thanks very much people go to free state project
You know, you just put free state project in a search it'll blow up all over the place pork fast
Which is porcupine freedom festival
Po rc
FES T com I guess it is you know pork fast and you know
You wear a pork fast shirt. You're on the way in the airplane everybody looking at you funny pork
Now where are you going? You know kind of like, you know porcupine freedom festival
Get get out get your mind out of the gutter. So this is a
Great opportunity at you and I don't know if we've ever done an interview before, you know, this is a great one
I think people got an idea of the success from an idea
from a college student that just blossom into a
Rose being an example to the planet, which gee I wonder why the left is attacking
You know cuz they can but to what success doesn't seem like they're phasing you guys
Jason Sorens, thank you very much for coming on Jason. This is awesome
Thank you. It was a pleasure. Yeah, peace brother. Bye. Bye