WEBVTT 00:00.020 --> 00:05.420 This episode is sponsored by Zano, the privacy-based crypto we use right here at the Free Thought Project. 00:05.860 --> 00:09.500 While Bitcoin has been hijacked by surveillance exchanges and institutional control, 00:10.100 --> 00:12.520 Zano stays true to what crypto is supposed to be. 00:12.920 --> 00:15.220 Private, peer-to-peer, and censorship-free. 00:15.720 --> 00:16.740 It's more than just a coin. 00:17.140 --> 00:18.760 Zano is a full-blown ecosystem. 00:19.360 --> 00:23.660 Private transactions, atomic swaps, confidential assets, escrow trades, 00:24.140 --> 00:28.960 and even a decentralized marketplace where people are already buying and selling real goods and services. 00:28.960 --> 00:31.500 All without a third party looking over your shoulder. 00:31.920 --> 00:33.800 And unlike that fiat that you're forced to use, 00:34.200 --> 00:38.700 every Zano transaction burns a bit of the supply, making it deflationary over time. 00:39.120 --> 00:39.740 Imagine that. 00:40.040 --> 00:43.520 A cryptocurrency that gets more valuable the more people use it. 00:44.160 --> 00:44.780 And the best part? 00:45.100 --> 00:45.600 It just works. 00:46.060 --> 00:46.860 No KYC. 00:47.200 --> 00:47.780 No big brother. 00:48.100 --> 00:50.500 Just a tool for people who actually value freedom. 00:50.980 --> 00:51.440 Zano. 00:51.700 --> 00:55.460 Because the Free Thought Project doesn't just talk liberty, we transact with it. 00:56.360 --> 00:58.940 People should not be afraid of their governments. 01:01.080 --> 01:03.060 Government should be afraid of people. 01:04.980 --> 01:07.540 No matter what anybody tells you, 01:07.640 --> 01:11.120 words and ideas can change the world. 01:15.900 --> 01:18.040 Ideas can change the world. 01:18.100 --> 01:22.800 An idea whose time has come cannot be destroyed by armies or governments. 01:22.800 --> 01:27.080 It's too pervasive and we still have tools to spread the message. 01:35.240 --> 01:38.540 Welcome to the Free Thought Project Podcast. 01:39.660 --> 01:44.020 A hub for free thinking conversations about the promotion of liberty 01:44.020 --> 01:46.880 and the daunting task of government accountability. 01:48.540 --> 01:53.320 Here are your hosts, Jason Bassler and Matt Agarist. 01:57.480 --> 01:59.240 Hello again, Free Thinkers. 01:59.240 --> 02:01.600 Welcome back to the Free Thought Project Podcast. 02:02.020 --> 02:03.180 My name is Jason Bassler. 02:03.580 --> 02:07.100 And joining me is the Free Thought Project Editor-in-Chief Matt Agarist. 02:08.060 --> 02:11.780 Thanks as always for joining us again for another powerful episode. 02:12.420 --> 02:15.880 I've been looking forward to this conversation today for months now 02:15.880 --> 02:19.980 since we had today's guest on the first time and more so recently. 02:20.560 --> 02:24.580 But I do have a feeling today's show will be quite interesting and quite educational. 02:25.500 --> 02:28.700 First off, apologies on missing last week's show. 02:29.100 --> 02:31.520 Guys, it's my fault. I'll take all the blame. 02:32.340 --> 02:37.800 The week prior, we did have an in-depth conversation with Jacob Johnson, 02:38.020 --> 02:40.180 though, from Rise to Liberty podcast. 02:41.100 --> 02:43.400 And that conversation was all about mind control, 02:44.240 --> 02:47.420 MKUltra, how the powers that be weaponized fear. 02:48.040 --> 02:49.960 And I mentioned it because if you're here today 02:49.960 --> 02:51.920 to listen to the conversation about consciousness, 02:51.920 --> 02:55.860 there's a good chance that episode will also resonate with you as well. 02:56.540 --> 02:58.740 So download it and listen to it after this episode. 02:59.360 --> 03:01.740 Also, guys, the holidays are right around the corner. 03:02.000 --> 03:03.760 They'll be here in a blink of an eye. 03:04.280 --> 03:06.960 So we're starting to promote our children's book 03:06.960 --> 03:10.260 that we released last year entitled Little Free Thinkers, Know Your Rights. 03:10.900 --> 03:15.480 It's a wonderful resource to give your kids or family and friends with kids. 03:16.200 --> 03:18.740 It really is a foundation of liberty and education. 03:18.740 --> 03:22.240 Now we wrote the book for kids aged six to 12 03:22.240 --> 03:25.900 and it covers a lot of ground, including due process, probable cause, 03:26.520 --> 03:27.860 free speech and so much more. 03:28.060 --> 03:31.920 So it can be found at littlefreethinkers.com and makes a great gift. 03:32.460 --> 03:34.320 Now Christmas will be here before we know it. 03:34.440 --> 03:36.800 So help support our work and our podcast 03:36.800 --> 03:39.140 while also educating kids about their rights. 03:40.060 --> 03:42.840 And last but not least, I know I say this every show, guys, 03:42.920 --> 03:43.820 because it's important. 03:44.440 --> 03:47.200 Sometimes I scratch my head because we get a decent amount of listens 03:47.200 --> 03:48.460 and downloads for this show. 03:48.700 --> 03:51.280 But we have very low subscriber counts on Apple Podcasts, 03:52.160 --> 03:53.200 Spotify and Podbean. 03:53.840 --> 03:54.600 So do me a favor, guys. 03:54.840 --> 03:57.480 If you listen to our podcast on any of these platforms, 03:57.760 --> 04:00.500 just take a moment to make sure you have hit that subscribe button 04:00.500 --> 04:02.540 on your favorite podcast player of choice. 04:03.340 --> 04:05.860 And while you're there, please also rate and review the show. 04:08.260 --> 04:11.300 Okay, well, let's go ahead and get this interview started. 04:11.620 --> 04:14.960 Our guest today is someone we had on the show back in April of this year. 04:14.960 --> 04:18.840 And it's very rare that we book a guest for a future appearance 04:18.840 --> 04:21.540 just minutes after the previous interview ended. 04:22.020 --> 04:23.900 But that was the case with our guest today. 04:24.280 --> 04:26.800 And we wanted to continue that fascinating conversation. 04:27.440 --> 04:28.560 So we knew we had to have him back. 04:30.040 --> 04:33.520 Our guest today is a former investment banker. 04:33.760 --> 04:38.340 He's an author, a volunteer, which might be my favorite part 04:38.340 --> 04:41.080 and a brilliant consciousness researcher. 04:41.720 --> 04:42.780 His name is Mark Gober, 04:42.780 --> 04:44.740 and we're excited to have him back on the show. 04:45.360 --> 04:47.820 So, Mark, welcome back to the Freethought Project podcast. 04:48.180 --> 04:49.480 And thanks again for joining us. 04:50.020 --> 04:51.240 Thank you so much for having me. 04:52.040 --> 04:52.420 Yeah, man. 04:52.580 --> 04:57.480 Well, I'm happy to share that I now have a copy of your first book 04:57.480 --> 04:59.040 and end to Upside Down Thinking, 04:59.140 --> 05:01.120 which I received as a gift for my birthday. 05:01.700 --> 05:04.040 And I actually haven't had a chance to start reading it yet 05:04.040 --> 05:05.980 because I'm trying to finish up a few other books, 05:06.060 --> 05:07.760 but I am excited to dig into it. 05:08.700 --> 05:11.240 And part of why we wanted to have you back on 05:11.240 --> 05:14.100 is to pretty much pick up where we left in our conversation 05:14.100 --> 05:17.180 because I've listened back to that episode a few times now 05:17.820 --> 05:20.320 and there's a question that just keeps gnawing at me 05:20.320 --> 05:23.800 and it might be a great place to start part two of a conversation. 05:24.380 --> 05:26.540 It might also be jumping into the deep end. 05:26.660 --> 05:27.540 I'm not quite sure, 05:27.580 --> 05:30.180 but I felt like I needed to get clarity on this. 05:30.960 --> 05:33.600 So you said in the beginning of our last interview with you 05:33.600 --> 05:35.500 that the mainstream view on consciousness 05:35.500 --> 05:38.360 is that it comes from our brain, which I agree with. 05:38.360 --> 05:41.160 But you also mentioned that your view has evolved 05:41.160 --> 05:43.620 from the mainstream perspective and that your view now 05:43.620 --> 05:46.280 is that we are basically these antenna receivers, 05:46.940 --> 05:50.220 these transmitters and or interface for consciousness, 05:50.240 --> 05:54.360 which certainly aligns more with my experiences and observations. 05:55.100 --> 05:57.820 And I've observed that it often feels like 05:57.820 --> 06:00.620 these preferences arise spontaneously 06:00.620 --> 06:03.360 as if the conscious mind is witnessing observations 06:03.960 --> 06:05.640 rather than generating thoughts. 06:05.640 --> 06:09.220 So yeah, it definitely feels like there are times in life 06:09.220 --> 06:13.900 when it just feels like we're observers in our own preferences, right? 06:14.540 --> 06:18.060 So I don't think we got into real depth about it 06:18.060 --> 06:19.640 when we originally made that point 06:19.640 --> 06:22.060 and maybe this is the million-dollar question, 06:22.080 --> 06:23.860 but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on 06:23.860 --> 06:26.340 where those signals come from. 06:26.540 --> 06:29.900 If we are receivers or an interface for consciousness, 06:30.460 --> 06:33.860 then who or what is transmitting these signals 06:33.860 --> 06:37.840 and where do these spontaneous indicators of signals come from, 06:37.980 --> 06:41.240 especially those that feel kind of reflexive by conscious thought? 06:42.060 --> 06:43.200 It's a great question. 06:44.060 --> 06:46.960 I want to take a few steps back in case your audience is not familiar 06:46.960 --> 06:48.560 with some of these general topics 06:48.560 --> 06:50.920 because there is a field of neuroscience 06:50.920 --> 06:55.320 which examines correlations between the way the brain is behaving 06:55.320 --> 06:58.680 and the type of conscious experience that people have. 06:59.040 --> 07:02.060 So for example, if someone damages a part of the brain 07:02.060 --> 07:06.460 responsible for memory and then has a loss of memory in their consciousness, 07:06.740 --> 07:08.360 we can see that there is this relationship 07:08.360 --> 07:10.000 between what happens in the brain 07:10.000 --> 07:12.040 and what happens in the person's consciousness. 07:12.540 --> 07:15.820 They're called NCC's Neural Correlates of Consciousness. 07:16.420 --> 07:19.540 The problem, however, is that it's not always the case 07:19.540 --> 07:21.100 that because two things are correlated, 07:21.420 --> 07:22.980 that one causes the other. 07:23.660 --> 07:27.160 Just like saying that if we saw firefighters at the scene of a fire, 07:27.380 --> 07:30.380 we might incorrectly conclude that firefighters caused the fire 07:30.380 --> 07:33.880 because they were there, but we know that's not the relationship. 07:34.460 --> 07:36.660 And another important point here is that 07:36.660 --> 07:39.660 no one has ever observed consciousness coming out of a brain 07:40.340 --> 07:44.260 even though that is the mainstream assumption in academia and elsewhere. 07:44.820 --> 07:46.740 It's largely because of these correlations. 07:47.160 --> 07:49.900 And if it's true that the mainstream is correct, 07:50.100 --> 07:54.100 that the brain creates consciousness, think about the implications. 07:54.600 --> 07:59.280 It means that when you die, i.e. when your brain turns off, 07:59.280 --> 08:01.500 that is the end of your conscious experience. 08:01.620 --> 08:02.660 So there would be no afterlife. 08:03.120 --> 08:06.940 And there wouldn't be an ability for consciousness to exist non-locally. 08:07.140 --> 08:09.460 So it wouldn't be able to go out in space and time. 08:09.640 --> 08:13.000 So things like telepathic abilities or remote viewing, 08:13.100 --> 08:14.660 which the U.S. government has done, 08:14.780 --> 08:17.320 and there are declassified documents verifying this 08:17.320 --> 08:19.140 where people are psychically spying, 08:19.360 --> 08:22.640 sending their consciousness out to see something and perceive it 08:22.640 --> 08:24.160 and relaying that information. 08:24.580 --> 08:25.900 Those sorts of things would be impossible 08:25.900 --> 08:27.500 if the brain created consciousness. 08:27.500 --> 08:30.280 And my first book in end-to-upside-down thinking, 08:30.420 --> 08:32.920 and my podcast series, it's an eight-episode series 08:32.920 --> 08:34.240 called Where Is My Mind, 08:34.780 --> 08:37.920 goes through the evidence that consciousness doesn't come from the brain. 08:38.300 --> 08:39.580 And now it's your question, Jason. 08:40.180 --> 08:41.160 Where would it come from? 08:42.700 --> 08:44.400 I would answer it two ways. 08:44.820 --> 08:46.240 First, I'll start off conceptually, 08:46.500 --> 08:49.080 which is that I've become more and more comfortable 08:50.120 --> 08:51.360 falsifying a theory 08:51.360 --> 08:55.440 than I am with coming up with a comprehensive alternative. 08:55.440 --> 08:57.460 And that's an okay thing to do, 08:57.600 --> 09:01.480 because if a claim is put forth by academics or anyone, 09:02.000 --> 09:04.480 the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate that it's true. 09:05.020 --> 09:06.680 And I would argue there is a lot of evidence 09:06.680 --> 09:10.160 contradicting the idea that consciousness pops out of our brain, 09:10.220 --> 09:11.620 which no one has ever even observed. 09:12.660 --> 09:15.760 That said, there are ideas I have. 09:15.940 --> 09:17.340 So I just wanted to give that preference 09:17.340 --> 09:18.860 because I don't know exactly how it works. 09:20.320 --> 09:23.480 But I hearken back to what many mystics have said, 09:23.480 --> 09:27.380 or even Max Planck, Nobel Prize winning physicist in 1931. 09:28.120 --> 09:28.460 He said, 09:28.640 --> 09:30.420 I regard consciousness as fundamental. 09:31.160 --> 09:34.300 I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. 09:34.980 --> 09:36.860 In other words, the world that we call material, 09:37.100 --> 09:37.960 the world that we live in, 09:38.080 --> 09:40.980 is actually a product of some kind of underlying consciousness. 09:41.880 --> 09:44.000 Versus the material world existed 09:44.000 --> 09:46.340 because of 13.8 billion years, 09:46.780 --> 09:50.180 a big bang 13.8 billion years ago that created the universe. 09:50.480 --> 09:52.300 And after billions of years of evolution 09:52.760 --> 09:55.300 and the solar system popping up, 09:55.640 --> 09:57.080 human beings develop brains 09:57.080 --> 09:59.160 and consciousness popped out of their brain. 09:59.360 --> 10:01.240 That view starts with the material world 10:01.240 --> 10:02.820 and consciousness comes later, 10:02.940 --> 10:05.200 versus what Max Planck and many mystics 10:05.200 --> 10:07.000 and traditions around the world have said, 10:07.060 --> 10:10.240 which is, no, the material world is a product of consciousness. 10:11.100 --> 10:12.420 Now, if we take that perspective, 10:12.660 --> 10:14.060 maybe it's more complex than that, 10:14.080 --> 10:15.740 but maybe directionally it's accurate. 10:16.280 --> 10:17.140 And that's what, again, 10:17.260 --> 10:18.580 my first book goes all into this 10:18.580 --> 10:19.700 and ends upside down thinking. 10:20.440 --> 10:23.400 The perspective entails the idea that 10:24.060 --> 10:25.740 nothing is actually physical, 10:25.960 --> 10:27.260 which sounds weird. 10:28.260 --> 10:30.000 Everything appears to be physical, 10:30.420 --> 10:32.340 and when we touch something, 10:32.620 --> 10:33.940 we interpret it as physical, 10:34.020 --> 10:36.120 but really everything is happening within our consciousness, 10:36.380 --> 10:37.680 and then we have mental gymnastics, 10:38.020 --> 10:40.600 and we reverse engineer this idea that there exists a world 10:40.600 --> 10:42.600 that is outside of our consciousness 10:42.600 --> 10:44.020 and independent of our consciousness, 10:44.420 --> 10:46.660 when in reality our experience is that it's always 10:46.660 --> 10:48.820 experienced within consciousness. 10:49.660 --> 10:51.720 An analogy that I love in this area, 10:51.880 --> 10:52.760 again, it's an analogy, 10:52.880 --> 10:54.820 it might be more simplistic than the truth, 10:55.100 --> 10:57.660 comes from Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, a philosopher. 10:58.480 --> 11:00.840 He says that all reality could be likened 11:00.840 --> 11:02.720 to an infinite stream of water, 11:03.040 --> 11:05.800 where water is analogous to consciousness, 11:06.280 --> 11:07.840 and each of us as an individual 11:07.840 --> 11:10.100 is like a whirlpool within that stream. 11:10.300 --> 11:11.380 So it's a localization, 11:11.800 --> 11:14.040 an individualization of 11:14.040 --> 11:16.720 the overall stream of consciousness. 11:17.620 --> 11:20.000 So to go back to your question, Jason, 11:20.120 --> 11:21.660 this is a long-winded way of saying it, 11:22.020 --> 11:24.000 that consciousness itself, 11:24.320 --> 11:25.520 the underlying stream, 11:26.600 --> 11:28.680 what Erwin Schrödinger called the one mind, 11:29.300 --> 11:31.660 that is the source of all consciousness 11:31.660 --> 11:33.760 that we are experiencing through the vessels 11:33.760 --> 11:35.620 of individual whirlpools. 11:35.900 --> 11:37.320 And it could be that this stream 11:37.320 --> 11:39.540 and the whirlpools themselves are multi-dimensional, 11:39.900 --> 11:42.300 whereby, let's say there are 11:43.240 --> 11:44.180 whirlpools that exist, 11:44.380 --> 11:45.880 individuated consciousnesses, 11:46.040 --> 11:47.420 that are not in the physical realm, 11:48.080 --> 11:49.880 but they can communicate with our consciousness 11:50.600 --> 11:52.820 through, who knows what, other dimensions, 11:52.980 --> 11:54.420 or maybe that's the way consciousness works, 11:54.740 --> 11:56.480 in which case we could have a creative idea 11:56.480 --> 11:58.980 which comes from a multi-dimensional whirlpool 11:58.980 --> 12:00.200 that's not our own whirlpool, 12:00.480 --> 12:02.160 which ultimately at the highest level 12:02.160 --> 12:04.860 is coming from the overall stream 12:04.860 --> 12:05.720 of consciousness. 12:06.320 --> 12:07.960 So the way Kastrup describes it, 12:08.340 --> 12:10.380 it's almost like this universal consciousness 12:10.380 --> 12:13.300 has dissociative identity disorder, 12:13.800 --> 12:15.320 where there's one mind 12:15.320 --> 12:18.480 and then it dissociates into these individual whirlpools, 12:18.480 --> 12:20.780 and what we are picking up within the whirlpool 12:20.780 --> 12:22.880 could be coming from different parts of the stream 12:22.880 --> 12:24.060 or even different dimensions. 12:24.740 --> 12:25.400 Does that help? 12:26.200 --> 12:27.160 Yeah, it certainly helps. 12:27.280 --> 12:29.940 It kind of opens up a whole new can of worms, 12:30.040 --> 12:32.520 but it certainly helps at least kind of broaden 12:32.520 --> 12:34.440 the spectrum of possibilities, 12:34.640 --> 12:36.420 and I think that's what I'm curious about. 12:36.660 --> 12:39.300 And, you know, I guess I have to read your book 12:39.300 --> 12:41.220 to really get a full grasp of this, 12:41.320 --> 12:42.860 and I'm looking forward to doing that by the way. 12:43.180 --> 12:44.560 I'll certainly give you a feedback, 12:44.840 --> 12:46.620 but it does feel like maybe 12:46.620 --> 12:48.720 some of our leftist hippie friends 12:48.720 --> 12:50.760 over the past few decades 12:51.160 --> 12:53.640 telling us that we are one collective consciousness, 12:53.980 --> 12:55.480 it does feel like that kind of 12:56.080 --> 12:57.860 aligns with what you're sharing here. 12:58.880 --> 13:00.640 since the last time we spoke, 13:00.820 --> 13:02.740 I've actually found myself reflecting 13:02.740 --> 13:04.340 not just on the ideas you present, 13:04.740 --> 13:07.440 but on how you personally navigate them. 13:07.440 --> 13:09.180 And I mean, 13:09.200 --> 13:11.240 you've had to use your own consciousness 13:11.240 --> 13:12.720 to explore and articulate 13:12.720 --> 13:15.480 and challenge the very nature of consciousness itself. 13:15.820 --> 13:17.300 It's like an introspective loop 13:17.300 --> 13:18.540 that seems to fascinate me. 13:19.040 --> 13:20.800 It's almost like your mind is trying to kind of like 13:20.800 --> 13:21.900 peek behind the curtain 13:21.900 --> 13:24.120 while also acknowledging that the curtain exists 13:24.120 --> 13:26.620 and it's limited by your own vantage point, you know, 13:26.940 --> 13:29.220 which kind of brings me to a, 13:29.360 --> 13:30.520 I guess, a personal question 13:30.520 --> 13:32.260 and maybe something that's essential 13:32.260 --> 13:33.720 to kind of understanding consciousness. 13:33.720 --> 13:35.680 I think this goes hand in hand with the last question 13:35.680 --> 13:37.400 and your answer might not 13:37.400 --> 13:39.080 vary too much from it, but 13:39.080 --> 13:41.380 do you ever find yourself just kind of like lying 13:41.380 --> 13:43.200 awake in bed and kind of wondering 13:43.200 --> 13:45.740 where your internal monologue actually comes 13:45.740 --> 13:47.380 from, you know, that voice in your head? 13:47.500 --> 13:49.600 I mean, it sounds, it seems so 13:49.600 --> 13:51.480 familiar, you know, but it's so elusive 13:51.480 --> 13:53.640 at the same time. You know, is it truly 13:53.640 --> 13:55.860 us or is it something that we're being, 13:55.940 --> 13:57.040 you know, it's received? 13:57.400 --> 13:59.320 Is it, you know, information we're just receiving? 13:59.600 --> 14:01.000 It feels like it could be 14:01.000 --> 14:03.140 possibly the root of consciousness itself. 14:04.160 --> 14:05.160 So does that question 14:05.160 --> 14:06.760 ever haunt you? I'd love to hear 14:06.760 --> 14:08.200 your thoughts about that. 14:08.620 --> 14:09.960 Yeah, man, all the time. 14:10.940 --> 14:13.100 Every day I'm wondering what is going on? 14:13.220 --> 14:14.600 Where are these ideas coming from? 14:14.800 --> 14:17.100 Why do I want the things that I want 14:17.100 --> 14:19.300 and dislike the things I dislike and so forth? 14:21.200 --> 14:21.680 I 14:21.680 --> 14:23.260 think there's a paradox here 14:23.260 --> 14:25.040 that's worth mentioning because you mentioned 14:25.040 --> 14:26.940 that many leftist friends 14:26.940 --> 14:28.480 talk about how we are all one 14:28.480 --> 14:30.400 and that there might be some reality to that 14:30.400 --> 14:31.280 when we look at the way 14:32.080 --> 14:34.080 science and philosophy point us. 14:34.820 --> 14:36.080 That might be true 14:36.080 --> 14:38.000 at the highest level of reality, 14:38.140 --> 14:40.580 but there also exists distinction. 14:41.420 --> 14:42.740 So at some level we are all one 14:42.740 --> 14:43.840 but clearly we are not 14:44.480 --> 14:46.000 because there's Mark and Jason and Matt 14:46.000 --> 14:47.940 and I don't have direct access to everything happening 14:47.940 --> 14:49.440 in your minds. Sure. 14:49.960 --> 14:52.100 So that's, I call it the metaparadox 14:52.100 --> 14:54.120 of non-duality, meaning 14:54.120 --> 14:56.460 that it's all oneness with duality 14:56.460 --> 14:58.140 which is, there's not one. 14:58.640 --> 15:00.460 There's multiple. And I think people can get 15:00.460 --> 15:02.040 lost in those distinctions 15:02.040 --> 15:04.780 and then come up with political and other philosophies 15:04.780 --> 15:05.960 based on 15:06.360 --> 15:07.740 an oversimplification 15:08.440 --> 15:10.500 of the metaphysics. And that ties into your question 15:10.500 --> 15:12.220 that you're asking me, Jason, about my own 15:12.220 --> 15:14.060 thoughts. And the way I 15:14.060 --> 15:16.320 think about it now, I'm nine years into 15:16.320 --> 15:18.280 this journey in 2016, that's when I had my 15:18.280 --> 15:20.280 awakening when I first started questioning this 15:20.280 --> 15:22.440 working in Silicon Valley, advising 15:22.440 --> 15:24.660 tech companies, is that 15:25.120 --> 15:26.500 there seems to be 15:27.060 --> 15:27.940 an intelligence 15:28.540 --> 15:30.220 that is guiding the world 15:30.760 --> 15:32.640 and I see it in my own life where 15:32.640 --> 15:35.000 a lot of things are happening that I don't directly cause 15:35.600 --> 15:37.060 or at least I don't see the cause. 15:37.160 --> 15:38.460 I don't see the cause in the way that 15:38.460 --> 15:40.780 one billiard ball hits another billiard ball hits 15:40.780 --> 15:42.720 another one, which is a very materialistic 15:42.720 --> 15:44.620 lens on causality where it's very linear 15:44.620 --> 15:46.660 one physical thing hits the next 15:46.660 --> 15:48.800 hits the next and that's why 15:48.800 --> 15:50.260 things happen. Whereas 15:50.260 --> 15:52.740 now I don't even know why things 15:52.740 --> 15:54.680 happen. There could be non-linear 15:54.680 --> 15:56.220 spiritual causes of things 15:56.560 --> 15:59.040 and the way that my life has now been guided 15:59.040 --> 16:00.760 when I look at it rationally there are things 16:00.760 --> 16:02.680 that keep happening that are just beyond chance 16:02.680 --> 16:04.420 and it feels like I'm being steered 16:04.420 --> 16:06.640 and because of that I'm more surrendered 16:06.640 --> 16:08.740 to what life is bringing including 16:08.740 --> 16:09.980 my own thoughts and ideas. 16:10.340 --> 16:12.520 So when things come in I start asking the question 16:12.520 --> 16:14.760 is this something that I should be following 16:14.760 --> 16:16.760 or looking into more and that can be 16:16.760 --> 16:18.540 on the positive or negative 16:18.540 --> 16:20.000 side. Negative side meaning 16:20.000 --> 16:22.140 is there something I'm ruminating on that's causing 16:22.140 --> 16:24.100 me a lot of pain that I'm 16:24.100 --> 16:25.660 being shown that I need to look at this 16:25.660 --> 16:27.900 to try to resolve it or is 16:27.900 --> 16:30.040 something coming in that might be a new creative insight 16:30.040 --> 16:31.900 or a path that I didn't think about 16:31.900 --> 16:33.920 but it keeps coming in and maybe I should explore 16:33.920 --> 16:35.960 it because it keeps coming in. So I've become 16:35.960 --> 16:37.740 much more curious about my surroundings 16:37.740 --> 16:39.920 and also the way that my thoughts 16:39.920 --> 16:41.660 are evolving. Yeah 16:41.660 --> 16:43.120 and I love the 16:43.120 --> 16:45.620 what you just described it where it's not 16:46.120 --> 16:48.040 is it one thing or is it a million things 16:48.040 --> 16:49.860 we don't we don't really see it like that 16:49.860 --> 16:52.000 if you've ever done DMT it's a million things 16:52.000 --> 16:53.220 right the 16:53.800 --> 16:55.720 the super highway that is 16:55.720 --> 16:58.100 the blast off into DMT realm 16:58.100 --> 16:59.400 into the bardo if you will 17:00.000 --> 17:01.880 is where I like to think 17:01.880 --> 17:03.700 that that consciousness is stored that's 17:03.700 --> 17:06.180 you know this outside of our body and that's what we tap into 17:06.180 --> 17:07.980 and we could just see it when that's taking place 17:07.980 --> 17:09.740 but not to get off into 17:09.740 --> 17:11.980 the psychedelic realm but I just felt 17:11.980 --> 17:13.380 like that was necessary to say that 17:13.380 --> 17:15.820 I mean it all what we're talking about 17:15.820 --> 17:17.840 it connects perfectly to your you know the 17:17.840 --> 17:20.040 receiver filter model of consciousness 17:20.040 --> 17:21.580 and before 17:21.580 --> 17:23.620 like like Jason said we always like to 17:23.620 --> 17:25.740 do a little background and some studying before 17:25.740 --> 17:27.800 we get on the podcast and I was doing 17:27.800 --> 17:29.680 some reading last night about some 17:29.680 --> 17:31.520 some pretty fucking 17:31.520 --> 17:34.500 crazy new scientific evidence that backs this up 17:34.500 --> 17:35.340 and it's a 17:35.340 --> 17:37.880 from the University of Virginia they have this department 17:37.880 --> 17:39.940 called the division of perceptual 17:39.940 --> 17:40.920 studies DOPS 17:41.620 --> 17:43.740 and they look into veridical 17:43.740 --> 17:44.480 perception 17:44.480 --> 17:46.980 and during near death experiences 17:46.980 --> 17:49.360 and what this is 17:49.360 --> 17:51.880 it's not like people when they die they just 17:51.880 --> 17:53.580 you know I saw a lot 17:53.580 --> 17:56.100 and I was just floating you know like this is 17:56.100 --> 17:58.080 it's not like that these people 17:58.080 --> 17:59.840 they're clinically dead 17:59.840 --> 18:01.860 their heart stopped their brain is flat 18:01.860 --> 18:02.200 lined 18:03.080 --> 18:05.700 when they come back in they report back 18:05.700 --> 18:08.580 specific verifiable details 18:08.580 --> 18:09.520 from the rooms like 18:09.520 --> 18:11.820 shit that they couldn't see while they're in their 18:11.820 --> 18:13.540 bed like one of them described 18:13.540 --> 18:15.760 the serial number on one 18:15.760 --> 18:17.300 of the machines that was working on them 18:17.300 --> 18:19.640 and it was behind the machine like there's no possible 18:19.640 --> 18:21.580 way that this person could have seen it another 18:21.580 --> 18:23.520 person described like the scuffs 18:23.520 --> 18:24.620 on the doctor's shoe 18:25.100 --> 18:27.440 and in detail and they're laying in a bed 18:27.440 --> 18:29.620 they could have never possibly seen the scuffs 18:29.620 --> 18:31.440 on the doctor's shoe or the serial number without 18:31.440 --> 18:33.740 from their physical bodies right that means 18:33.740 --> 18:35.640 they they fucking floated around 18:35.640 --> 18:37.500 the room somehow and this 18:37.500 --> 18:39.760 and and observed in what was 18:39.760 --> 18:41.780 going on in that room which is kind 18:41.780 --> 18:43.580 of like a crazy blow 18:43.580 --> 18:45.580 to the the materialist narrative 18:45.580 --> 18:47.880 that you know that everybody dwells in now 18:47.880 --> 18:49.940 and it's like I think 18:49.940 --> 18:51.920 personally it's like it's a huge favor 18:51.920 --> 18:53.980 you know a point in the favor of your thesis 18:53.980 --> 18:55.760 and but 18:55.760 --> 18:57.520 it brings up a really strange question 18:57.520 --> 18:59.540 like fucking shoes 18:59.540 --> 19:01.720 and serial numbers right if consciousness 19:01.720 --> 19:04.000 is this fundamental universal stream 19:04.000 --> 19:05.440 and the brain filter is offline 19:05.440 --> 19:07.840 what I wonder why like 19:07.840 --> 19:09.820 their first instinct is to just float 19:09.820 --> 19:11.680 up to the ceiling and watch the surgery 19:11.680 --> 19:13.840 or or observe the doctor's 19:13.840 --> 19:15.740 shoes or get the serial number off of the machine 19:16.220 --> 19:17.940 why are they like they're hanging 19:17.940 --> 19:19.540 around and to quote Monty Python 19:19.540 --> 19:20.820 when they're not quite dead yet 19:20.820 --> 19:23.860 you know why why observe these 19:23.860 --> 19:25.720 mundane details instead of 19:25.720 --> 19:28.160 jettisoning off into this infinite cosmos 19:28.160 --> 19:29.700 that you know that 19:29.700 --> 19:31.740 I just described before I started this question about 19:31.740 --> 19:33.620 like that I think is out there in this 19:33.620 --> 19:35.660 DMT realm first off so like 19:35.660 --> 19:37.720 my question is is that you know 19:37.720 --> 19:39.560 and then are you familiar with this research 19:39.560 --> 19:41.720 and what do you think is actually 19:41.720 --> 19:44.020 happening in that room if you're not or if you are 19:44.560 --> 19:45.460 great question 19:45.460 --> 19:47.920 I want to start with the University of Virginia 19:47.920 --> 19:49.640 that you mentioned I'm so glad you mentioned them 19:49.640 --> 19:51.700 the Division of Perceptual Studies at the Med School 19:51.700 --> 19:53.760 when I learned about this in 2016 19:53.760 --> 19:55.840 I was just stunned that a mainstream 19:55.840 --> 19:58.080 academic institution was looking at near-death 19:58.080 --> 20:00.180 experiences also research on 20:00.180 --> 20:01.940 children with memories of another life 20:01.940 --> 20:04.060 that they call potentially reincarnation 20:04.060 --> 20:06.240 research research on the afterlife 20:06.240 --> 20:07.880 this is being done at UVA 20:07.880 --> 20:09.820 like stop there for a second 20:09.820 --> 20:11.700 that is unbelievable to me and that's been around 20:11.700 --> 20:14.100 since the 1960s Dr. Ian Stevenson 20:14.100 --> 20:15.820 and I would also refer your audience 20:15.820 --> 20:17.520 if they're interested to my podcast series 20:17.520 --> 20:20.180 where is my mind because I interviewed several of the doctors there 20:20.180 --> 20:22.460 Dr. Bruce Grayson, Jim Tucker, Ed Kelly 20:22.460 --> 20:23.800 very smart guys 20:23.800 --> 20:25.820 who have been looking at this seriously 20:26.540 --> 20:27.040 and 20:27.560 --> 20:29.640 there's something wrong with the model of reality 20:29.640 --> 20:31.920 that starts with matter the materialist 20:31.920 --> 20:34.440 perspective very clearly and the near-death experience 20:34.440 --> 20:35.540 is 20:35.540 --> 20:38.340 it's really informed a lot of my 20:38.340 --> 20:39.100 research 20:39.700 --> 20:42.320 because I wonder if it is teaching us 20:42.320 --> 20:43.600 something about what happens 20:43.600 --> 20:45.140 when the person 20:45.660 --> 20:47.720 when a person actually dies even though they're 20:47.720 --> 20:49.440 resuscitated in a near-death experience 20:49.440 --> 20:52.020 maybe it tells us something about what might happen 20:52.020 --> 20:53.920 in the early stages of death 20:53.920 --> 20:56.040 there's a phenomenon also known 20:56.040 --> 20:57.940 as the shared death experience 20:57.940 --> 20:59.520 which is not talked about as much 20:59.520 --> 21:00.360 where 21:00.360 --> 21:03.780 a bystander, someone who is not dying 21:03.780 --> 21:05.380 co-lives 21:05.380 --> 21:06.840 in the dying process 21:07.360 --> 21:08.560 with the dying person 21:08.560 --> 21:11.220 and reports very similar things 21:11.220 --> 21:13.680 to a traditional near-death experience 21:13.680 --> 21:15.660 so we have a healthy brain 21:15.660 --> 21:18.440 that seems to be going into this other dimension of reality 21:18.440 --> 21:19.780 and is verifying it 21:19.780 --> 21:21.300 I think that's really significant 21:21.300 --> 21:22.000 number one 21:22.000 --> 21:25.840 number two, these veridical out-of-body experiences 21:25.840 --> 21:26.580 in other words 21:26.580 --> 21:29.120 the memory of what the consciousness had 21:29.120 --> 21:30.560 before being resuscitated 21:30.560 --> 21:32.460 is verified as accurate 21:32.460 --> 21:34.360 by people who were not dying 21:34.360 --> 21:36.480 like the doctor or family members 21:36.480 --> 21:37.980 or staff in the hospital 21:37.980 --> 21:40.260 they verify the memory of what their conscious 21:40.260 --> 21:42.080 this person's consciousness experienced 21:42.760 --> 21:44.020 so how does this work 21:44.580 --> 21:46.540 let's say a person is in cardiac arrest 21:46.540 --> 21:48.480 meaning in some cases 21:48.480 --> 21:49.340 clinical death 21:49.340 --> 21:51.300 blood stops flowing to the brain 21:51.300 --> 21:53.520 and upon being resuscitated 21:53.520 --> 21:54.980 the person comes back and says 21:55.300 --> 21:57.440 my consciousness was hovering over my body 21:57.440 --> 22:00.000 I saw and heard things in the room 22:00.000 --> 22:02.040 or even other rooms 22:02.640 --> 22:03.200 and 22:03.200 --> 22:05.020 the doctor and other people say 22:05.020 --> 22:06.340 yeah, you got that right 22:06.340 --> 22:08.160 but how could that be 22:08.160 --> 22:09.660 how could you have perceived this 22:09.660 --> 22:11.720 from a vantage point outside your body 22:11.720 --> 22:13.900 given what your brain is doing 22:13.900 --> 22:16.280 which is that it was barely functional 22:16.280 --> 22:17.460 or completely off 22:17.460 --> 22:19.440 and even with a functional brain 22:19.440 --> 22:21.120 how could you explain perceiving something 22:21.120 --> 22:22.640 from a vantage point outside your body 22:22.640 --> 22:25.360 it's very perplexing to mainstream thinkers 22:25.360 --> 22:26.480 doesn't make any sense 22:27.420 --> 22:29.140 and I've heard some people say 22:29.140 --> 22:31.580 well, you know, there's a little bit of brain activity 22:31.580 --> 22:32.340 that's measured 22:32.340 --> 22:34.340 we can find this spike in brain activity 22:34.340 --> 22:37.180 and therefore we shouldn't consider these near-death experiences 22:37.180 --> 22:38.820 real that it's just a function 22:38.820 --> 22:40.600 it's a hallucination by the brain 22:40.600 --> 22:43.040 number one, if it's a verified memory 22:43.040 --> 22:44.760 it's not a hallucination 22:44.760 --> 22:46.120 it's an accurate perception 22:46.120 --> 22:47.440 that the person had 22:48.040 --> 22:49.420 hallucination would not be verified 22:49.420 --> 22:50.740 in that same way 22:51.280 --> 22:53.980 number two, it's true that there might be 22:53.980 --> 22:55.760 spikes of brain activity that are occurring 22:55.760 --> 22:58.040 but then we'd really have to rethink the brain 22:58.040 --> 23:00.000 if one little spike of brain activity 23:00.000 --> 23:01.800 or just a few could explain the 23:01.800 --> 23:04.060 elaborateness of what happens in a near-death experience 23:04.060 --> 23:05.800 such as perceiving something 23:05.800 --> 23:06.660 from outside the body 23:06.660 --> 23:09.760 that is very difficult to explain with just a little bit of brain activity 23:09.760 --> 23:11.240 but even beyond that 23:11.240 --> 23:14.100 people talk about a whole variety of things 23:14.100 --> 23:16.100 they talk about sometimes encountering 23:17.000 --> 23:18.040 other intelligences 23:18.040 --> 23:20.140 meaning deceased relatives and pets 23:20.140 --> 23:22.820 or even mystical spiritual beings 23:22.820 --> 23:24.280 or a being of light 23:24.280 --> 23:26.500 when I interviewed Dr. Alan Hugano 23:26.500 --> 23:28.120 in my podcast, Where Is My Mind 23:28.120 --> 23:30.320 he talked about in his near-death experience 23:30.320 --> 23:32.020 encountering this being of light 23:32.020 --> 23:34.720 and he said it was a being that I feel like I've known throughout time 23:34.720 --> 23:36.740 he had this immense familiarity with it 23:36.740 --> 23:38.220 that's not an uncommon thing 23:38.220 --> 23:39.100 for people to report 23:39.820 --> 23:42.320 and sometimes they will have flash forwards 23:42.320 --> 23:44.140 where they will see the future 23:44.140 --> 23:46.040 they will remember the past 23:46.040 --> 23:47.880 or like past lives will come up 23:47.880 --> 23:49.560 and often there's a light 23:49.560 --> 23:51.560 that they don't progress into 23:52.280 --> 23:54.780 sometimes people even experience other realms 23:54.780 --> 23:55.920 like Dr. Eben Alexander 23:55.920 --> 23:58.040 former Harvard neurosurgeon 23:58.040 --> 23:59.420 who was also on my podcast 23:59.420 --> 24:01.260 he was in a coma for about a week 24:01.260 --> 24:03.460 with bacterial meningitis 24:04.620 --> 24:06.300 and he talks about 24:06.300 --> 24:07.680 these other realms that he experienced 24:07.680 --> 24:08.700 so to your question Matt 24:08.700 --> 24:11.380 there are a variety of experiences people have 24:11.380 --> 24:13.300 the vast majority of the ones that are reported 24:13.300 --> 24:15.280 are highly positive meaning they're flooded 24:15.280 --> 24:16.420 with unconditional love 24:16.420 --> 24:18.960 there are others where people are in a hellish experience 24:18.960 --> 24:20.280 it was very traumatic for them 24:20.280 --> 24:22.180 and there are other worldly elements 24:22.500 --> 24:24.160 of what some people do describe 24:24.480 --> 24:26.680 where it's not as mundane as just the hospital room 24:26.680 --> 24:28.300 so I wonder in some of these cases 24:28.300 --> 24:30.180 where it's a verified memory and they're looking at 24:30.580 --> 24:32.640 certain details of what's happening in the hospital 24:32.640 --> 24:34.980 it might be just the very early stages 24:34.980 --> 24:37.200 of their consciousness leaving the body 24:37.200 --> 24:39.240 and maybe it hasn't fully untethered 24:39.240 --> 24:41.420 from the body and that's why it's a bit more mundane 24:41.420 --> 24:43.460 but if things weren't to progress 24:43.460 --> 24:45.680 they might end up in a different state 24:45.680 --> 24:46.720 where it's much more mystical 24:47.480 --> 24:49.240 yeah that's that's brilliant man 24:49.240 --> 24:50.900 great great answer there 24:52.160 --> 24:53.520 in regards to 24:53.520 --> 24:55.100 the brain activity that you were talking about 24:55.100 --> 24:57.120 how some people try to use that as evidence 24:57.120 --> 24:58.980 that you know the brain's still making this 24:58.980 --> 25:01.080 that what I read last night 25:01.080 --> 25:03.260 was there was the aware to study 25:04.000 --> 25:05.360 and they you know 25:05.360 --> 25:07.400 they found EEG evidence of high level 25:07.400 --> 25:09.440 brain activity with all these 25:09.440 --> 25:11.140 different waves that are a bunch of Greek letters 25:11.140 --> 25:12.320 that I don't even need to say 25:12.320 --> 25:15.260 and this is like up to an hour 25:15.260 --> 25:16.540 after the person had died 25:16.540 --> 25:19.140 and this this study 25:19.140 --> 25:21.060 used those waves as evidence 25:21.060 --> 25:22.880 you know to be like the smoking gun 25:22.880 --> 25:24.660 for the like the receiver filter model 25:24.660 --> 25:26.800 you know improving that the brain is 25:27.160 --> 25:28.920 capable of conscious like activity 25:28.920 --> 25:31.480 when it's assumed to be completely inactive 25:31.480 --> 25:33.260 and so I think that you know 25:33.260 --> 25:35.200 that's more powerful just want to speak to that point 25:35.200 --> 25:37.540 it suggests consciousness is more resilient 25:37.540 --> 25:39.480 than the materialist model allows if you will 25:39.480 --> 25:41.340 I guess yeah it's definitely 25:41.340 --> 25:43.300 a point of contention and there have been rebuttals 25:43.300 --> 25:44.960 to that argument that I've seen 25:44.960 --> 25:47.140 I'm sure certainly 25:47.140 --> 25:49.160 there could be brain activity measured but the next 25:49.160 --> 25:51.160 step would be to demonstrate that the activity 25:51.160 --> 25:53.420 that they observe is capable 25:53.420 --> 25:55.160 of producing the 25:55.160 --> 25:57.300 wide variety of experiences that people have 25:57.300 --> 25:59.300 in the near-death experience I listed a bunch of 25:59.300 --> 26:01.440 things that people experience and I didn't mention 26:01.440 --> 26:03.580 the life review which is another one that's very 26:03.580 --> 26:05.640 perplexing people sometimes relive 26:05.640 --> 26:07.500 their whole life in a very short amount 26:07.500 --> 26:09.640 of time and they relive it from the perspective 26:09.640 --> 26:11.460 of other people that they impacted during 26:11.460 --> 26:13.220 their life they become those people 26:13.220 --> 26:15.620 so when I interviewed Danian Brinkley for example 26:15.620 --> 26:17.360 in my podcast he had 26:17.360 --> 26:19.580 four near-death experiences four different 26:19.580 --> 26:21.080 times and each time he had a life review 26:21.600 --> 26:23.660 he felt what it was like to be the person 26:23.660 --> 26:25.180 he killed in combat in Vietnam 26:25.180 --> 26:27.460 and he felt the pain of that person he felt 26:27.460 --> 26:29.360 the pain of the children that no longer had a father 26:29.360 --> 26:30.800 and then later in his life 26:31.220 --> 26:33.320 he became a hospice volunteer after being 26:33.320 --> 26:35.240 resuscitated and healing and 26:35.240 --> 26:37.400 he had later near-death experiences and he got 26:37.400 --> 26:39.200 to feel what it was like to be the dying person 26:39.200 --> 26:41.260 in hospice and he felt the love and care 26:41.260 --> 26:43.340 that he gave to that person through the person's 26:43.340 --> 26:45.140 eyes so these are very 26:45.140 --> 26:47.460 complex phenomena that people are describing 26:47.460 --> 26:49.340 and someone would need to show that those 26:49.340 --> 26:50.640 spikes in brain activity 26:51.340 --> 26:53.460 could produce such experiences 26:53.460 --> 26:54.820 that's a big missing 26:54.820 --> 26:57.140 gap here in the literature 26:57.140 --> 26:59.180 where there's a materialistic bias 26:59.180 --> 27:01.100 so it's just the brain that's producing these 27:01.100 --> 27:03.080 experiences and they're not really that mystical 27:03.080 --> 27:05.120 and then again the shared death experience 27:05.120 --> 27:07.180 that I mentioned where somehow a healthy 27:07.180 --> 27:09.180 person who doesn't have any 27:09.180 --> 27:10.880 brain damage at all is 27:10.880 --> 27:12.560 shifting dimensions I guess 27:12.560 --> 27:14.960 and is co-living in the dying process 27:14.960 --> 27:17.140 of a person who is actually dying 27:17.140 --> 27:19.380 and reports it just like a near-death 27:19.380 --> 27:20.380 experience or would 27:21.180 --> 27:22.940 Exactly and this 27:22.940 --> 27:24.960 brings us to like the point of 27:24.960 --> 27:27.060 you know the University of Virginia has been studying 27:27.060 --> 27:28.940 this for years like you said decades even 27:28.940 --> 27:30.920 and it kind of comes 27:30.920 --> 27:33.160 back to the idea of internal sovereignty 27:33.160 --> 27:34.980 you know we look at who tries 27:34.980 --> 27:36.420 to control our consciousnesses 27:36.960 --> 27:38.560 and without a doubt 27:38.560 --> 27:40.740 most people the largest 27:40.740 --> 27:42.620 organization on the planet that tries to control 27:42.620 --> 27:44.360 consciousnesses is the state 27:44.960 --> 27:46.880 and the government's 27:46.880 --> 27:48.920 whole model that we're just like these 27:48.920 --> 27:50.300 fragile meat computers 27:50.960 --> 27:52.780 it is what allows them 27:52.780 --> 27:54.800 to keep us in these constant states of 27:54.800 --> 27:56.600 fear they tell us we're under constant 27:56.600 --> 27:58.700 attack by germs by people by 27:58.700 --> 28:00.620 the word of these insignificant 28:00.620 --> 28:02.460 specs in a dead universe 28:02.460 --> 28:04.400 and we need you know we need them 28:04.400 --> 28:06.540 to save us and 28:06.540 --> 28:07.660 I think that's 28:08.300 --> 28:10.440 it's a form of mind control and 28:10.440 --> 28:12.460 I think it keeps us our 28:12.460 --> 28:14.500 brains in these boxes and 28:14.500 --> 28:16.420 disallows the 28:16.420 --> 28:18.640 us to even think about these ideas 28:18.640 --> 28:19.100 you know 28:20.360 --> 28:20.920 because 28:20.920 --> 28:22.880 I think that we 28:22.880 --> 28:25.340 once we start having these conversations 28:25.340 --> 28:27.120 more often than I think that 28:27.120 --> 28:29.020 that would lead to a whole awakening in humanity 28:29.020 --> 28:31.020 and we would be more people would be studying 28:31.020 --> 28:33.440 this and we could see our true potential unfold 28:33.440 --> 28:35.200 but I guess I can get to 28:35.200 --> 28:37.320 my question how much does this like this 28:37.320 --> 28:39.060 new scientific evidence you know 28:39.060 --> 28:41.060 proving consciousness is incredibly 28:41.060 --> 28:43.440 resilient and not just a product 28:43.440 --> 28:45.160 of our brain 28:45.160 --> 28:47.080 our fragile brains how much 28:47.080 --> 28:49.300 does that demolish the entire like fear based 28:49.300 --> 28:51.080 narrative you know that if 28:51.080 --> 28:52.860 people truly understood this would 28:52.860 --> 28:54.920 they be so quick to obey 28:54.920 --> 28:56.680 the like the medical priesthood 28:56.680 --> 28:58.920 and the technocrats who demand 28:58.920 --> 29:00.680 total control in the name of our 29:00.680 --> 29:02.120 alleged safety 29:02.920 --> 29:05.100 well part of me wants to say that this understanding 29:05.100 --> 29:07.080 would help people not have fear of so 29:07.080 --> 29:09.180 many things including the medical 29:09.180 --> 29:10.780 ideas that were told to be true 29:10.780 --> 29:13.020 and yet there are many smart 29:13.020 --> 29:15.160 people I know who have very similar spiritual 29:15.160 --> 29:17.340 beliefs meaning that they believe 29:17.340 --> 29:19.020 consciousness doesn't come from the brain 29:19.020 --> 29:21.140 and so forth and 29:21.140 --> 29:23.400 they fell for everything in 2020 29:23.400 --> 29:25.200 yeah so 29:25.200 --> 29:27.340 man I think it's layered in terms of 29:27.340 --> 29:29.580 the mind control that this understanding 29:29.580 --> 29:30.660 of metaphysics 29:30.660 --> 29:33.180 and the importance of consciousness is one 29:33.180 --> 29:35.220 of many layers that 29:35.220 --> 29:37.020 needs to be overcome and that's why I've written 29:37.020 --> 29:39.040 seven books rather than just one 29:39.040 --> 29:41.180 which I didn't know I would do at the time when I 29:41.180 --> 29:43.160 wrote an end to upside down thinking I thought oh that's 29:43.160 --> 29:45.200 my book I'm at my firm I'm a partner okay 29:45.200 --> 29:47.120 I'm just going to stay there and then I quickly 29:47.120 --> 29:49.180 realized there are many other paradigms that seem to be 29:49.180 --> 29:51.100 part of this mind control 29:52.120 --> 29:53.180 mentality and I have 29:53.180 --> 29:55.240 a chapter actually in my book an end to upside 29:55.240 --> 29:57.080 down liberty which talks about voluntaryism 29:57.080 --> 29:59.160 all about mind control because it is 29:59.160 --> 30:00.560 really a fear based 30:00.980 --> 30:03.100 phenomenon where if the authority figures can keep 30:03.100 --> 30:05.020 people in a state of fear then 30:05.020 --> 30:07.120 they're much more easily controllable 30:07.120 --> 30:09.140 and one part of that would be 30:09.140 --> 30:10.560 for us to believe that we are 30:10.560 --> 30:12.460 we are live in a random 30:12.460 --> 30:14.600 and meaningless universe and that when you die that's the 30:14.600 --> 30:16.620 end of your consciousness and then people with fear death 30:16.620 --> 30:18.860 extremely but then there are other paradigms 30:18.860 --> 30:20.580 too which we can talk about or not 30:20.580 --> 30:22.840 related to medicine and cosmology 30:22.840 --> 30:24.540 and so many other things 30:24.540 --> 30:26.560 where we're told this 30:26.560 --> 30:28.600 is going to happen and you need to be 30:28.600 --> 30:30.520 aware of it otherwise you're going to die and you should 30:30.520 --> 30:32.280 listen to us because we're the expert class 30:32.280 --> 30:34.900 it's not just consciousness there are other paradigms 30:34.900 --> 30:36.640 too yeah the solution 30:36.640 --> 30:38.540 always rests on their shoulders right there 30:38.540 --> 30:40.500 they're the only ones to ever be able to produce 30:40.500 --> 30:42.220 anything of significant value 30:42.220 --> 30:43.720 as far as solutions go 30:44.380 --> 30:45.500 I've noticed a pattern 30:45.500 --> 30:47.780 randomly enough of course but 30:48.280 --> 30:50.720 speaking of brain activity and technocrats 30:50.720 --> 30:51.900 here when I mentioned 30:51.900 --> 30:53.920 the collective consciousness 30:54.320 --> 30:56.380 aspect of this you rightfully so 30:56.380 --> 30:58.300 mentioned that there are boundaries there 30:58.300 --> 31:00.280 right like obviously your mark 31:00.280 --> 31:02.300 Matt was just speaking I'm Jason 31:02.300 --> 31:04.080 so we do all have our own 31:04.080 --> 31:05.900 I guess lane 31:05.900 --> 31:07.940 to stay in when it comes to our own 31:07.940 --> 31:10.000 thoughts or own collective consciousness 31:10.000 --> 31:11.420 our own consciousness generally 31:11.420 --> 31:14.520 but if I had to take a stab at it 31:14.520 --> 31:16.200 I think that a company 31:16.200 --> 31:18.160 like Palantir might be trying 31:18.160 --> 31:19.980 to work to break down those walls 31:19.980 --> 31:21.960 of privacy and I say 31:21.960 --> 31:24.260 that because I've been focusing a lot 31:24.260 --> 31:26.240 of my work on Palantir right and obviously 31:26.240 --> 31:28.260 they are the enemy to privacy 31:28.260 --> 31:30.300 but Palantir co-founder 31:30.300 --> 31:31.820 Peter Thiel was interviewed 31:32.360 --> 31:33.920 God I guess it was probably a couple 31:33.920 --> 31:36.200 months ago now by a New York Times columnist 31:36.200 --> 31:37.800 and he was asked the question 31:37.800 --> 31:39.920 you know should the human race survive and of course 31:39.920 --> 31:41.700 you know everybody got the laughs about 31:41.700 --> 31:43.760 you know how much Thiel hesitated 31:43.760 --> 31:45.640 you know because it's a pretty straightforward answer 31:45.640 --> 31:48.020 but then he went into this long rambling answer 31:48.020 --> 31:50.020 about transhumanism and he even 31:50.020 --> 31:51.880 mocked you know the modern day trans 31:51.880 --> 31:54.020 people but he ultimately argued 31:54.020 --> 31:55.780 that today's transhumanist 31:55.780 --> 31:57.840 ambitions lack this radical 31:57.840 --> 31:59.700 vision that he thinks is necessary 31:59.700 --> 32:02.080 and then he discussed this idea 32:02.080 --> 32:03.760 of uploading human consciousness 32:03.760 --> 32:06.080 to computers and that 32:06.080 --> 32:07.960 kind of got me thinking about your work 32:07.960 --> 32:09.920 and as consciousness is not something 32:09.920 --> 32:11.840 that's generated by the brain but is you know 32:11.840 --> 32:13.800 fundamental and non-local 32:13.800 --> 32:16.000 so I guess my question is 32:16.000 --> 32:17.960 like if consciousness isn't confined 32:17.960 --> 32:20.000 to the brain what does that say about 32:20.000 --> 32:21.720 the idea of uploading it to a computer 32:21.720 --> 32:24.060 like can a machine ever truly 32:24.060 --> 32:26.200 host something that's not locally generated 32:26.200 --> 32:27.220 and 32:28.200 --> 32:30.040 do you think that transhumanist 32:30.040 --> 32:31.540 vision misses something essential 32:31.540 --> 32:33.940 about you know what consciousness is in the 32:33.940 --> 32:34.440 first place? 32:35.220 --> 32:37.520 It's a deep question that many people are talking about 32:37.520 --> 32:39.500 these days also in the context of AI 32:40.060 --> 32:41.760 like can AI ever become 32:41.760 --> 32:43.800 conscious or will it just be a machine 32:43.800 --> 32:45.920 that has high computational 32:45.920 --> 32:47.780 ability but is never going to have feelings 32:47.780 --> 32:50.160 in philosophy it's known as qualia 32:50.160 --> 32:51.720 love for example 32:51.720 --> 32:53.780 these are very intangible abstract ideas 32:53.780 --> 32:55.980 that are only within consciousness 32:55.980 --> 32:57.940 that's the only way we can fully know 32:57.940 --> 32:59.900 them we can't point to them could that just 32:59.900 --> 33:01.840 pop out of the machine well certainly 33:01.840 --> 33:03.940 the materialist would argue that that's possible 33:03.940 --> 33:06.100 because they believe qualia emerge from 33:06.100 --> 33:08.080 brain activity so if you could just 33:08.080 --> 33:09.860 have a really complex computer that sort 33:09.860 --> 33:11.980 of mimics a brain then these 33:11.980 --> 33:13.940 qualities of consciousness would 33:13.940 --> 33:15.900 pop out of it I don't know 33:15.900 --> 33:17.820 I mean if you ask Federico Fezzin 33:17.820 --> 33:19.440 for example he was one of the 33:19.440 --> 33:21.700 inventors of the microprocessor back at intel 33:21.700 --> 33:23.860 he had a mystical experience 33:23.860 --> 33:25.880 changed his whole life about the nature of consciousness 33:25.880 --> 33:27.480 and how he speaks publicly about this 33:27.480 --> 33:30.060 and he doesn't think that AI will develop 33:30.060 --> 33:31.680 consciousness because consciousness 33:31.680 --> 33:33.720 isn't going to pop out of a computer and it's 33:33.720 --> 33:35.380 pretty significant for someone of his stature 33:35.380 --> 33:37.900 to say that I do wonder however 33:37.900 --> 33:39.280 I mean because we are 33:39.280 --> 33:41.760 biological entities we're not just 33:41.760 --> 33:43.960 computers in the way that AI is currently 33:44.640 --> 33:45.780 we have a capacity 33:45.780 --> 33:47.720 for consciousness and we know that to be true because 33:47.720 --> 33:49.820 we're conscious right now that's actually the only thing we can 33:49.820 --> 33:51.680 verify about life is that right now it feels 33:51.680 --> 33:53.180 like we're having a conscious experience 33:53.180 --> 33:55.640 and if we are biological entities 33:55.640 --> 33:57.100 then could it be that 33:57.100 --> 33:59.260 if a computer learned how to 33:59.260 --> 34:01.140 integrate biological material within 34:01.140 --> 34:03.200 itself could it become a receiver of consciousness 34:03.200 --> 34:04.600 I don't know 34:04.960 --> 34:06.860 that's getting into some real theoretical stuff 34:06.860 --> 34:09.080 but in terms of uploading someone's 34:09.080 --> 34:10.140 consciousness into 34:10.960 --> 34:12.160 some kind of a computer 34:12.160 --> 34:14.980 in order to even conceive of that possibility 34:14.980 --> 34:17.040 we would need to much better understand 34:17.040 --> 34:19.220 how consciousness currently interacts with 34:19.900 --> 34:21.160 biological organisms 34:21.160 --> 34:23.620 and it's not just the brain by the way 34:23.620 --> 34:25.440 because there are instances 34:25.440 --> 34:26.980 that I've written about for example 34:26.980 --> 34:28.440 people who receive 34:29.160 --> 34:30.880 organs from another person 34:31.760 --> 34:33.340 organ transplant recipients 34:33.340 --> 34:35.780 they often will take on 34:35.780 --> 34:36.680 preferences 34:36.680 --> 34:38.940 personality traits and even memories 34:38.940 --> 34:40.340 of the person 34:40.980 --> 34:42.360 that they got the organ from 34:42.360 --> 34:44.900 so we're not even dealing with the brain anymore 34:44.900 --> 34:46.980 there's a good book on this by Paul Piersol called 34:46.980 --> 34:49.240 The Heart's Code and in my books I've talked about 34:49.240 --> 34:50.460 some of the cases that are remarkable 34:50.460 --> 34:52.560 where people literally shift 34:52.560 --> 34:53.640 in crazy ways 34:53.640 --> 34:56.540 I actually met someone recently and he told me 34:56.540 --> 34:58.540 he had a liver transplant and I pulled him aside and said 34:59.060 --> 35:00.440 has anything changed in your life 35:00.440 --> 35:01.980 and he goes how did you know that 35:01.980 --> 35:04.260 people around me they know I'm not the same person 35:04.260 --> 35:06.440 and I don't like this food anymore that I used to like 35:06.440 --> 35:08.140 so it's a very common phenomenon 35:08.140 --> 35:10.340 of wait a second are we uploading consciousness 35:10.340 --> 35:11.780 through biology in a way 35:12.360 --> 35:13.420 and if so 35:13.420 --> 35:16.080 it broadens the aperture to the question 35:16.080 --> 35:18.220 about uploading consciousness I think it's way beyond 35:18.220 --> 35:19.320 just looking at a computer 35:19.800 --> 35:22.040 and the human consciousness and saying somehow 35:22.040 --> 35:23.320 it's just going to go into that computer 35:24.120 --> 35:26.120 right well I mean I guess that kind of opens 35:26.120 --> 35:28.140 up the door too for another question 35:28.140 --> 35:30.000 which maybe we'll 35:30.000 --> 35:32.100 kind of sidestep this one and go into 35:32.100 --> 35:33.660 a different one here 35:33.660 --> 35:35.920 maybe I could kind of combine both of them but you know 35:35.920 --> 35:37.960 plants I mean obviously plants don't have 35:37.960 --> 35:40.020 brains but they still 35:40.020 --> 35:42.060 respond to stimuli they communicate 35:42.740 --> 35:44.300 chemically they even show signs 35:44.300 --> 35:46.360 of memory right so that's an interesting 35:46.360 --> 35:48.400 you know observation but then 35:49.060 --> 35:50.220 and you know I know 35:50.220 --> 35:51.980 we talked behind the scenes about 35:51.980 --> 35:54.440 this question and I know you're not 35:55.220 --> 35:56.220 exactly an expert 35:56.220 --> 35:58.300 on it but I recently came across 35:58.300 --> 36:00.420 some ideas that I'm still kind of wrapping my head around 36:00.420 --> 36:02.240 regarding the work of 36:02.240 --> 36:04.340 Dr. Imoto and more recently 36:04.340 --> 36:05.920 a woman named Veda Austin 36:05.920 --> 36:07.740 about water crystallization 36:08.060 --> 36:10.360 and this idea that water might respond 36:10.360 --> 36:11.640 to intention or emotion 36:11.640 --> 36:13.900 and you know this person 36:13.900 --> 36:15.840 Veda Austin she's done a bunch of research 36:15.840 --> 36:17.580 she's done her own 36:17.580 --> 36:19.360 demonstrations over a course of 36:19.360 --> 36:21.500 time and kind of shown that she's had some 36:21.500 --> 36:23.920 repeated results and she claims 36:23.920 --> 36:25.500 you know that because water 36:25.500 --> 36:27.620 is such a main component of our 36:27.620 --> 36:29.640 bodies that yeah very well 36:29.640 --> 36:31.400 could be also conscious 36:31.400 --> 36:33.580 and having maybe what you were just 36:33.580 --> 36:34.820 referring to some of these 36:35.540 --> 36:37.720 changes and particular preferences 36:37.720 --> 36:39.780 or even the way we act our character 36:39.780 --> 36:41.880 and behavior and stuff like that so 36:41.880 --> 36:43.720 I'm still kind of 36:43.720 --> 36:45.720 trying to wrap my head around if this is 36:45.720 --> 36:47.440 just some type of mysterious 36:47.440 --> 36:49.560 albeit kind of unexplored 36:49.560 --> 36:51.760 phenomenon of life that just happened to surface 36:51.760 --> 36:53.800 around the internet age or 36:53.800 --> 36:55.380 if it is you know some type of 36:55.380 --> 36:57.700 beautifully packaged suede of science you know 36:57.700 --> 36:59.340 I don't know yet but 36:59.340 --> 37:01.700 I know you mentioned you haven't gone super deep in this area 37:01.700 --> 37:03.160 but I would love to hear 37:03.740 --> 37:05.560 your thoughts even if they're not well formulated 37:05.560 --> 37:07.540 like do you see any conceptual overlap 37:07.540 --> 37:09.600 between this type of water research 37:09.600 --> 37:11.580 and the frameworks that you've 37:11.580 --> 37:12.700 explored with your research 37:13.380 --> 37:15.540 Yes I'll start with plants and then 37:15.540 --> 37:17.380 move into water. There 37:17.380 --> 37:19.840 was a researcher named Cleve Baxter 37:19.840 --> 37:21.320 who used to run 37:21.320 --> 37:23.080 lie detection for the CIA 37:23.080 --> 37:25.520 he wrote a book called Primary Perception 37:25.520 --> 37:27.160 which I've cited in my books 37:27.160 --> 37:28.940 where he decided 37:29.540 --> 37:31.600 to test whether there was 37:31.600 --> 37:33.500 some kind of a reaction from plants 37:33.500 --> 37:35.740 if he hurt the plant 37:36.360 --> 37:37.700 and he used his lie detector 37:38.320 --> 37:39.720 technology he hooked it up to the plant 37:40.200 --> 37:41.500 and nothing was happening 37:41.500 --> 37:43.840 when he and he decided at one 37:43.840 --> 37:46.040 point okay I'm going to burn the leaf of this plant 37:46.040 --> 37:47.180 he was actually going to do it 37:47.180 --> 37:49.320 and then the lie detection thing spiked 37:50.060 --> 37:51.840 and that changed his life because he said 37:51.840 --> 37:53.860 what is going on here I need to now 37:53.860 --> 37:55.580 test so many things and in this 37:55.580 --> 37:57.480 book Primary Perception he talks about his own 37:57.480 --> 37:59.620 experiments he even expanded it beyond 37:59.620 --> 38:01.760 plants so I'm hoping I'm remembering 38:01.760 --> 38:03.660 this example correctly where 38:03.660 --> 38:05.580 for example he would have 38:05.580 --> 38:07.260 he would take a person's 38:07.260 --> 38:09.460 cells outside their body and I can't remember 38:09.460 --> 38:10.720 if it was saliva or something else 38:11.660 --> 38:13.600 and have it hooked up to the lie detector 38:13.600 --> 38:14.940 machine to see if it would spike 38:14.940 --> 38:16.680 but he would check whether it would spike 38:16.680 --> 38:18.880 while the person that the cells came from 38:18.880 --> 38:21.100 was having some kind of an arousing event 38:21.100 --> 38:23.680 for example looking pornographic magazine 38:23.680 --> 38:25.400 and sure enough he found that the cells 38:25.400 --> 38:26.480 outside the body would spike 38:26.480 --> 38:27.920 when the guy is looking at the magazine 38:27.920 --> 38:31.460 a bunch of examples like that 38:31.460 --> 38:33.220 in this book now has this been studied 38:33.220 --> 38:35.260 as well as other areas that I've talked about 38:35.260 --> 38:37.280 I would say no and part of that 38:37.280 --> 38:39.340 is due to a lack of funding and a lack 38:39.340 --> 38:41.240 of researchers because so many researchers 38:41.240 --> 38:43.780 in the mainstream they're studying materialistic 38:43.780 --> 38:45.480 ideas consciousness coming from the brain 38:45.480 --> 38:47.140 so this is an area that I hope will 38:47.140 --> 38:49.600 get more research and that leads 38:49.600 --> 38:51.400 into your question about 38:51.400 --> 38:53.340 Water Jason where I think we need a lot 38:53.340 --> 38:55.380 more controlled research and Dr. 38:55.460 --> 38:57.180 Emoto's work and Beta Austin's work it's 38:57.180 --> 38:59.120 really amazing I recommend Alex 38:59.120 --> 39:01.280 X podcast the way forward he's gone 39:01.280 --> 39:02.980 into this notion of water in 39:02.980 --> 39:05.120 a lot of detail he's also looked at the fourth 39:05.120 --> 39:07.240 phase of water Dr. Gerald Pollack 39:07.240 --> 39:09.060 work really fascinating to me 39:09.060 --> 39:11.200 but the idea one of 39:11.200 --> 39:12.820 the main ideas is that 39:12.820 --> 39:15.160 if someone puts an intention into water 39:15.160 --> 39:17.120 and then you freeze it then 39:17.120 --> 39:19.000 the structure of the frozen 39:19.000 --> 39:21.100 water will look different depending on whether 39:21.100 --> 39:22.800 there was a loving or a hateful intention 39:22.800 --> 39:25.280 yes that's just a very high level way of looking at it 39:25.280 --> 39:27.420 and to me that makes sense 39:28.000 --> 39:28.520 conceptually 39:29.080 --> 39:31.420 number one it speaks to a 39:31.420 --> 39:33.580 phenomenon known as psychokinesis 39:33.580 --> 39:35.580 or mind-matter interaction 39:35.580 --> 39:37.500 the idea that the human 39:37.500 --> 39:39.540 mind through intention can affect the physical 39:39.540 --> 39:41.500 world which is completely compatible 39:41.500 --> 39:43.480 with this idea that everything is consciousness 39:43.480 --> 39:45.400 and there are whirlpools in a stream 39:45.400 --> 39:47.300 it's like if you shift what's going on 39:47.300 --> 39:49.080 in one whirlpool then you've shifted the stream 39:49.080 --> 39:51.080 in some way you've shifted the modulations 39:51.080 --> 39:53.060 of the water so it would make sense that the mind 39:53.060 --> 39:54.700 could affect the physical world 39:54.700 --> 39:56.760 I'm actually on the board of an organization 39:56.760 --> 39:58.740 called the Institute of Noetic Sciences 39:58.740 --> 40:00.580 which has been around since 40:00.580 --> 40:02.880 1973 and 40:02.880 --> 40:04.860 50 plus years of peer-reviewed 40:04.860 --> 40:06.480 research on phenomena like this 40:06.480 --> 40:08.680 mind-matter interaction Dr. Dean Raiden 40:08.680 --> 40:10.620 among others Dr. Robert John 40:10.620 --> 40:12.260 who was the Dean of Engineering at Princeton 40:12.260 --> 40:14.560 was studying phenomena like this Roger Nelson 40:14.560 --> 40:16.640 and one example I'll give that I think ties 40:16.640 --> 40:18.840 into the water discussion is studies on 40:18.840 --> 40:20.260 random number generators 40:20.260 --> 40:22.120 so these are machines that spit out 40:22.120 --> 40:24.060 zeros and ones in a random 40:24.060 --> 40:26.140 fashion and when you look at the string 40:26.140 --> 40:28.420 of zeros and ones over time it's about 50% 40:28.420 --> 40:30.040 ones 50% zeros 40:30.040 --> 40:32.240 because it's all random the experimenters 40:32.640 --> 40:34.120 ask people and these are not 40:34.120 --> 40:35.760 people claiming to have any special abilities 40:35.760 --> 40:37.960 often they're just in college they'll say 40:37.960 --> 40:39.520 I want you to try to make the machine 40:40.120 --> 40:41.880 produce more ones than zeros 40:41.880 --> 40:44.040 but you can't touch the machine so do it 40:44.040 --> 40:45.940 with your mind and sure enough 40:45.940 --> 40:48.160 what happens is that the machine produces 40:48.160 --> 40:50.040 more ones than zeros in a 40:50.040 --> 40:51.760 statistically significant manner 40:51.760 --> 40:53.940 it's not a huge effect but it's small 40:53.940 --> 40:56.080 and highly statistically significant and it's been 40:56.080 --> 40:57.920 shown repeatedly so 40:57.920 --> 41:00.080 that is one experiment out of many 41:00.080 --> 41:01.960 suggesting okay there's a 41:01.960 --> 41:04.040 power of human consciousness on the 41:04.040 --> 41:06.120 physical world it's affecting the behavior 41:06.120 --> 41:07.960 of a machine without any physical 41:07.960 --> 41:09.960 contact and if we apply 41:09.960 --> 41:12.140 that to this research on water maybe this is 41:12.140 --> 41:13.680 just a nuance 41:13.680 --> 41:15.980 to that notion of psychokinesis 41:15.980 --> 41:18.140 of putting an intention out it has 41:18.140 --> 41:20.180 a certain quality in ways that we don't understand 41:20.180 --> 41:21.300 and it's affecting 41:22.240 --> 41:23.940 water and I think it's a major 41:23.940 --> 41:26.180 area of research like you said Jason if the body 41:26.180 --> 41:27.920 is made out of so much water 41:27.920 --> 41:29.780 that has huge implications for health 41:29.780 --> 41:32.020 sure yeah and then you 41:32.020 --> 41:34.100 bring vibration and frequency into that and 41:34.100 --> 41:36.060 there's a whole new topic for 41:36.060 --> 41:38.220 a podcast right I think 41:38.220 --> 41:40.240 that the same thing like we back to plants 41:40.240 --> 41:42.100 with the water like they've done studies 41:42.100 --> 41:44.280 where they've yelled at plants played different you know I mean 41:44.280 --> 41:46.020 granted some of those studies 41:46.020 --> 41:47.940 actually turned out no results 41:47.940 --> 41:49.260 but the plants 41:50.020 --> 41:52.040 undoubtedly are exhibit 41:52.700 --> 41:54.020 the traits of consciousness 41:54.020 --> 41:56.100 right they have these the mycelium 41:56.100 --> 41:58.160 that connect all these trees together and they 41:58.160 --> 42:00.300 when the trees need nutrients 42:00.300 --> 42:01.960 the mycelium that aren't even 42:01.960 --> 42:03.680 a part of that tree 42:03.680 --> 42:06.220 will funnel nutrients to that tree 42:06.220 --> 42:08.100 it's pretty pretty fucking crazy Jason and I 42:08.100 --> 42:09.740 were talking about that yesterday about Michael 42:09.740 --> 42:12.000 Poland and Paul Stamets who are like 42:12.000 --> 42:13.260 two pioneers in that realm 42:13.260 --> 42:14.200 and 42:14.200 --> 42:16.860 and so like back to this 42:16.860 --> 42:18.880 the unconscious there like I guess 42:18.880 --> 42:21.260 non-living things being conscious right 42:21.260 --> 42:22.740 we do 42:22.740 --> 42:24.740 joke and always talk about the AI 42:24.740 --> 42:26.420 waking up one day right but 42:26.420 --> 42:28.900 that's like an establishment trap 42:28.900 --> 42:30.940 I think you know that's like if you build a 42:30.940 --> 42:32.940 complex of enough machine consciousness 42:32.940 --> 42:35.060 will just magically emerge 42:35.060 --> 42:37.360 from the silicone right because our brains 42:37.360 --> 42:38.620 are just meat computers 42:39.120 --> 42:40.980 but there is an 42:40.980 --> 42:42.940 entire other school of thought here that's 42:42.940 --> 42:44.820 called pan-psychism and 42:44.820 --> 42:46.300 I want to get your take on this it's 42:46.300 --> 42:48.640 I heard this guy on Rogan one time who 42:48.640 --> 42:50.880 champion says Philip golf and they 42:50.880 --> 42:52.580 argue that the materials 42:52.580 --> 42:54.880 is totally wrong and propose 42:54.880 --> 42:56.580 that consciousness isn't an 42:56.580 --> 42:58.880 emergent property at all 42:58.880 --> 43:00.840 it's a fundamental law of 43:00.840 --> 43:02.640 the universe like basically like gravity 43:02.640 --> 43:04.760 and it's you know like 43:04.760 --> 43:06.180 meaning like all electrons 43:06.180 --> 43:08.580 or in the universe 43:08.580 --> 43:10.440 have some rudimentary 43:10.440 --> 43:12.420 form of experience 43:12.420 --> 43:13.840 in this universe 43:14.580 --> 43:16.320 and you know if they're right 43:16.320 --> 43:18.700 then the whole debate about uploading the mind 43:18.700 --> 43:20.500 that we were talking about earlier is 43:20.500 --> 43:22.320 essentially flawed because 43:22.320 --> 43:24.160 we're not creating consciousness 43:24.160 --> 43:26.460 with a computer we just be organizing 43:26.460 --> 43:28.140 complex matter in some 43:28.140 --> 43:29.860 some new way that allows 43:29.860 --> 43:32.440 that pre-existing fundamental consciousness 43:32.440 --> 43:34.440 to express itself in a more complex form 43:34.440 --> 43:36.460 basically. Yeah there are different definitions 43:36.460 --> 43:38.880 I've heard of pan-psychism but the one that you're referring to 43:38.880 --> 43:40.780 I believe is known as constitutive 43:40.780 --> 43:42.520 pan-psychism wherein 43:43.220 --> 43:44.380 every unit of 43:44.380 --> 43:46.440 matter has its own form of 43:46.440 --> 43:48.500 consciousness and when you put those little 43:48.500 --> 43:50.480 pieces of matter together you end up with big 43:50.480 --> 43:52.520 consciousness. Is that basically 43:52.520 --> 43:53.120 what you were hearing? 43:53.980 --> 43:56.220 Yeah I mean it was just I was 43:56.220 --> 43:58.340 more on a basic level like where you know 43:58.340 --> 44:00.420 consciousness in the universe exists at the 44:00.420 --> 44:02.340 most fundamental level on the electron or 44:02.340 --> 44:04.480 subatomic particle level 44:04.480 --> 44:06.300 and yeah you would 44:06.300 --> 44:08.240 I guess if you put enough of them together 44:08.240 --> 44:10.500 then you could have more of it I guess. 44:10.960 --> 44:12.300 Yeah so that version 44:12.300 --> 44:14.180 of pan-psychism 44:14.180 --> 44:16.380 I wrote about this in an end to upside down living 44:17.140 --> 44:18.460 I think it's still a form 44:18.460 --> 44:20.420 of materialism because it starts 44:20.420 --> 44:22.180 with matter and says that each piece of matter 44:22.180 --> 44:24.580 even little units spawns 44:24.580 --> 44:26.480 consciousness somehow and 44:26.480 --> 44:28.280 that is really distorting 44:28.280 --> 44:30.440 the idea 44:30.440 --> 44:32.520 that we have been talking about today which is 44:32.520 --> 44:34.700 more that consciousness is fundamental itself 44:34.700 --> 44:36.540 and everything that we call material 44:36.540 --> 44:38.120 is derived out of consciousness 44:38.740 --> 44:39.960 there's a distinction there 44:40.480 --> 44:42.240 so it's everything that we call the material 44:42.240 --> 44:44.240 world is some kind of a modulation 44:44.240 --> 44:45.860 of consciousness itself versus 44:45.860 --> 44:48.400 there's material stuff and consciousness pops out of it 44:48.400 --> 44:50.480 even if it's at a small level so that version 44:50.480 --> 44:52.620 of pan-psychism where it's constituent 44:52.620 --> 44:54.640 parts that are all conscious and then you put them together 44:54.640 --> 44:56.480 and then you get big consciousness I 44:56.480 --> 44:57.600 would debate that one. 44:58.120 --> 45:00.520 That's very interesting man I'm glad I asked that question 45:00.520 --> 45:02.680 and got corrected on it. 45:03.620 --> 45:04.900 I don't have necessarily a 45:04.900 --> 45:06.640 follow up for that we are getting a little low 45:06.640 --> 45:08.460 on time here I do have 45:08.460 --> 45:09.480 you know I started 45:09.480 --> 45:12.540 to rack my brain here and I wanted some 45:12.540 --> 45:14.220 out of the box questions for you Mark 45:14.220 --> 45:16.460 I know we covered a lot on the first 45:16.460 --> 45:18.380 podcast definitely listen to that one guys 45:18.380 --> 45:20.380 if this is your first time listening 45:20.380 --> 45:22.220 to Mr. Gover here but I 45:22.220 --> 45:23.560 have a question here 45:23.560 --> 45:26.320 it could be silly it could be 45:26.320 --> 45:27.980 something worth expanding on but 45:27.980 --> 45:30.080 when I was thinking about the evolution 45:30.080 --> 45:31.320 of consciousness 45:31.980 --> 45:33.940 I couldn't help but think about the nature 45:33.940 --> 45:35.860 of language and how it's essentially this 45:35.860 --> 45:37.460 man-made system where we've 45:37.460 --> 45:39.880 assigned meaning to sounds and grunts 45:39.880 --> 45:41.780 and vibrations that we make 45:41.780 --> 45:43.740 with our mouth it's a symbolic 45:43.740 --> 45:46.040 interface right it's not the thing itself 45:46.040 --> 45:47.860 and I feel like that kind of raises 45:47.860 --> 45:49.640 this deeper question about consciousness 45:49.640 --> 45:51.840 is consciousness reliant 45:51.840 --> 45:54.000 on human intelligence or even speech 45:54.000 --> 45:55.580 to express itself I mean 45:55.580 --> 45:57.560 obviously consciousness can exist 45:57.560 --> 45:59.420 without language but it 45:59.420 --> 46:01.300 might feel radically different so I guess 46:01.300 --> 46:02.760 I'm curious like how do you think 46:03.400 --> 46:05.260 about this conundrum you know does language 46:05.260 --> 46:07.440 shape consciousness or just 46:07.440 --> 46:09.700 reflect it and you know what would 46:09.700 --> 46:11.460 consciousness look like if we didn't have 46:11.460 --> 46:12.300 any language at all. 46:13.100 --> 46:15.000 Language is a tool to express 46:15.000 --> 46:16.980 things and it's inherently 46:17.580 --> 46:18.400 an approximation 46:18.400 --> 46:21.060 and this is especially clear when we're 46:21.060 --> 46:22.800 talking about consciousness because 46:22.800 --> 46:24.920 there is no language that adequately 46:24.920 --> 46:26.480 describes what consciousness is 46:26.480 --> 46:28.820 consciousness is a purely subjective thing 46:28.820 --> 46:30.880 it's something that we experience 46:30.880 --> 46:32.820 we don't actually see it 46:32.820 --> 46:34.380 we don't touch it we can't draw it 46:34.380 --> 46:36.720 and any language we use because 46:36.720 --> 46:38.820 of that is inherently an approximation 46:38.820 --> 46:39.580 or limitation 46:40.980 --> 46:42.720 and that gets to another point 46:42.720 --> 46:44.360 which is a little wild and crazy 46:44.360 --> 46:46.620 but in my book an end to upside down 46:46.620 --> 46:48.700 contact I talk about 46:48.700 --> 46:50.560 allegations that non-human 46:50.560 --> 46:52.580 intelligences exist both in the modern 46:52.580 --> 46:54.240 era but also throughout history 46:54.240 --> 46:55.940 and when you look at ancient mythologies 46:55.940 --> 46:57.960 ancient religious or spiritual scriptures 46:58.340 --> 47:00.460 they're talking about things that sound very much 47:00.460 --> 47:02.080 like what people are alleging today 47:02.080 --> 47:04.200 when they encounter a spirit or an alien 47:04.200 --> 47:05.640 or a UFO or something like that 47:05.640 --> 47:07.220 and there's a common theme 47:07.220 --> 47:09.440 when people encounter these entities 47:09.440 --> 47:12.120 there is communication but there's no language 47:12.120 --> 47:13.540 it's completely telepathic. 47:13.920 --> 47:16.400 Interesting. Which seems more efficient 47:16.400 --> 47:17.700 that's my guess 47:17.700 --> 47:19.180 and telepathy 47:19.700 --> 47:21.240 is something that has been studied 47:21.240 --> 47:23.140 I mentioned the institute of noetic sciences 47:23.140 --> 47:24.600 Dr. Dean Raiden and others 47:24.600 --> 47:27.120 there's a study called the Gansfeld experiment 47:27.700 --> 47:29.320 among others have demonstrated 47:29.320 --> 47:31.980 that telepathy is a real effect 47:31.980 --> 47:33.900 that it can be demonstrated 47:33.900 --> 47:34.980 statistically speaking 47:34.980 --> 47:37.740 that a normal person who doesn't even have any training 47:37.740 --> 47:39.920 is able to transmit something 47:39.920 --> 47:41.720 with the mind beyond what chance 47:41.720 --> 47:43.920 would predict so it's not always 100% telepathic 47:44.440 --> 47:46.420 like we hear about on the telepathy tapes 47:46.420 --> 47:48.080 for example the podcast series where 47:48.080 --> 47:50.640 there are telepathic autistic savants 47:50.640 --> 47:52.180 who can read their caretakers minds 47:52.180 --> 47:54.400 Dr. Diane Powell who's also my podcast 47:54.400 --> 47:56.700 where is my mind that's an area of research 47:56.700 --> 47:58.040 where there's extreme telepathy 47:58.040 --> 47:59.900 and then other times it's more subtle 47:59.900 --> 48:01.920 my point in mentioning all that is 48:01.920 --> 48:03.760 that telepathy is a phenomenon 48:03.760 --> 48:06.040 which many mainstream scientists don't even realize 48:06.040 --> 48:07.180 has been demonstrated 48:07.180 --> 48:10.180 and there are peer reviewed papers that aggregate 48:10.180 --> 48:12.000 the evidence for psychic phenomena 48:12.000 --> 48:14.600 like a paper in American psychologist 48:14.600 --> 48:16.580 the official peer reviewed academic journal 48:16.580 --> 48:18.820 of the American Psychological Association 48:18.820 --> 48:21.500 2018 paper by Dr. Etzel Cardina 48:21.500 --> 48:22.720 another example 48:22.720 --> 48:24.260 Dr. Jessica Utz 48:24.260 --> 48:26.720 who was the president of the American 48:26.720 --> 48:28.280 Statistical Association 48:28.280 --> 48:30.700 what she said is using the 48:30.700 --> 48:32.720 standards applied to any other area 48:32.720 --> 48:34.120 of science it has concluded 48:34.120 --> 48:36.880 that psychic functioning has been well established 48:36.880 --> 48:38.080 so 48:38.600 --> 48:39.800 with all that background 48:39.800 --> 48:41.940 to hear that people are encountering 48:41.940 --> 48:43.960 non-human intelligences which we know happens 48:43.960 --> 48:46.200 in near-death experiences in a whole host of other phenomena 48:46.200 --> 48:48.620 and everyone saying it's telepathic 48:48.620 --> 48:50.300 that would suggest that 48:50.300 --> 48:52.020 the way that we communicate 48:52.020 --> 48:53.980 might be a less evolved version 48:53.980 --> 48:56.260 of communication because something is lost 48:56.260 --> 48:57.840 in translation through language 48:57.840 --> 48:59.940 versus an ability to perhaps have a more 48:59.940 --> 49:02.240 pure version of communication with telepathy 49:02.240 --> 49:04.400 and that raises a whole host of questions 49:04.400 --> 49:06.340 if that's true what I just said 49:06.340 --> 49:08.020 why is it that we have 49:08.020 --> 49:09.660 a less efficient form of communication 49:09.660 --> 49:11.780 what does that mean about our origins 49:11.780 --> 49:13.580 were we designed this way 49:13.580 --> 49:15.640 in a nefarious manner 49:15.640 --> 49:17.420 because we want it to be kept in 49:17.420 --> 49:19.900 some kind of a negative state 49:19.900 --> 49:21.520 of imprisonment or control 49:21.520 --> 49:23.980 or is it just built into the way 49:23.980 --> 49:25.340 this realm is constructed 49:25.340 --> 49:27.560 and it's just part of the journey to have 49:27.560 --> 49:29.840 language versus pure telepathy I don't know 49:30.460 --> 49:31.200 that's a 49:31.880 --> 49:34.200 that's an awesome thought man isn't it 49:34.200 --> 49:35.880 and yeah language is so basic 49:35.880 --> 49:38.060 in rudimentary and if you've ever tried to describe 49:38.060 --> 49:40.300 an experience like a DMT experience 49:40.300 --> 49:41.580 or like you said 49:41.580 --> 49:43.760 trying to describe consciousness language 49:43.760 --> 49:46.020 is not even possible 49:46.020 --> 49:47.220 to do such 49:47.220 --> 49:48.820 it doesn't do it justice 49:48.820 --> 49:51.760 and I've been through that a whole bunch of times 49:51.760 --> 49:52.600 trying to describe 49:53.720 --> 49:55.900 my psychedelic experiences one person 49:55.900 --> 49:57.840 I found that does it pretty well is Alex Gray 49:57.840 --> 49:59.580 and he does it with imagery not words 49:59.580 --> 50:01.480 but because he's able to 50:01.840 --> 50:03.440 remember it and I guess bring that back 50:03.440 --> 50:05.160 but then again it might not even be 50:05.160 --> 50:06.960 that's what we're seeing but that's what we see afterwards 50:06.960 --> 50:08.940 you know might be implanting 50:08.940 --> 50:11.160 that visualization in our heads 50:11.160 --> 50:12.240 before we even go there 50:12.240 --> 50:14.580 but yeah that's brilliant man and 50:15.000 --> 50:16.440 I do think that I think that 50:17.160 --> 50:19.160 language because it's so basic and doesn't 50:19.160 --> 50:20.920 get the points across that we're trying to make 50:20.920 --> 50:22.380 I think that 50:22.960 --> 50:23.820 you know these 50:23.820 --> 50:26.500 bodies that we're in may have 50:26.500 --> 50:28.700 the ability to somehow communicate 50:28.700 --> 50:30.580 without it and 50:30.940 --> 50:32.540 it is apparent you know we have 50:32.540 --> 50:34.640 I read some statistic 50:34.640 --> 50:36.020 a long time ago about 50:36.410 --> 50:38.520 how you know like 90% 50:38.520 --> 50:40.600 of human communication has nothing to do with 50:40.600 --> 50:42.520 words and it's all 50:42.520 --> 50:44.320 the subconscious things that we could read 50:44.320 --> 50:46.520 and we could I'm calling it subconscious 50:46.520 --> 50:47.800 but maybe it's just conscious 50:48.300 --> 50:49.920 these conscious things that we can 50:49.920 --> 50:52.440 read and interpret without even 50:52.440 --> 50:54.600 talking to anybody you know you could tell a person's a threat 50:54.600 --> 50:56.320 without them telling you that they want 50:56.320 --> 50:57.820 to hurt you and 50:58.410 --> 51:00.360 it goes way deeper than that you know 51:00.360 --> 51:02.420 but I don't know where I was going with that 51:02.420 --> 51:04.480 but yeah that's just a brilliant point that you made 51:04.480 --> 51:06.320 and I wanted to draw attention to that man 51:06.820 --> 51:08.580 yeah you're pointing that to some 51:08.580 --> 51:10.500 subtle energies that we might be picking up 51:10.500 --> 51:12.420 whether it's telepathically or some other kind of 51:12.420 --> 51:14.060 energy that is beyond that 51:15.000 --> 51:16.580 that mainstream science won't 51:16.580 --> 51:18.320 talk about because it's not physical or maybe 51:18.320 --> 51:20.520 it's not measurable in the way that most people want 51:20.520 --> 51:22.180 there's a phenomenon I've written about 51:22.180 --> 51:23.800 it's called the sense of being stared at 51:23.800 --> 51:25.700 Dr. Rupert Sheldrake has looked into this 51:25.700 --> 51:28.180 where people can tell when someone's looking at them 51:28.180 --> 51:30.500 and apparently snipers and people in various industries 51:30.500 --> 51:32.140 know this that there's a subtle 51:32.140 --> 51:34.600 that intention has an effect that people pick up 51:34.600 --> 51:36.240 and it's not 51:36.240 --> 51:38.300 something that is traditionally measured by science 51:38.300 --> 51:39.600 but it speaks to your point Matt 51:40.120 --> 51:42.200 yeah no kidding well I mean there's even 51:42.200 --> 51:44.060 something as simple as just the yawn 51:44.060 --> 51:46.200 right like I yawn next thing I know you're 51:46.200 --> 51:48.260 yawning and everybody in the room is yawning 51:48.260 --> 51:50.200 I mean there's something there's something there 51:50.800 --> 51:51.800 but you know 51:52.360 --> 51:54.300 Mark you know as we've been discussing 51:54.300 --> 51:56.400 your work challenges 51:56.400 --> 51:58.060 the materials view on 51:58.060 --> 52:00.220 consciousness which you know they claim 52:00.220 --> 52:01.520 arises from the brain 52:02.080 --> 52:04.100 your ideas you know you're exploring 52:04.100 --> 52:06.380 consciousness that it's received rather than produced 52:06.380 --> 52:08.280 right but that aligns 52:08.280 --> 52:10.320 with a lot of ancient traditions and spiritual 52:10.320 --> 52:12.220 teachings yeah and 52:12.220 --> 52:14.020 I know you've taken note from both 52:14.020 --> 52:16.120 scientific studies and the metaphysical 52:16.120 --> 52:18.100 frameworks but maybe for listeners 52:18.100 --> 52:20.340 who are new to this intersection 52:20.340 --> 52:22.260 can you maybe speak to where 52:22.260 --> 52:24.500 modern science and the ancient spiritual 52:24.500 --> 52:26.560 teachings kind of converge and where 52:26.560 --> 52:28.500 you see any kind of meaningful overlap 52:29.020 --> 52:30.760 to me there's a lot of convergence 52:30.760 --> 52:32.360 and they are to me different 52:32.360 --> 52:34.540 approaches to trying to get to the 52:34.540 --> 52:36.420 truth often in spiritual 52:36.420 --> 52:38.420 and religious traditions they're referring to 52:39.040 --> 52:40.380 anecdotal reports someone 52:40.380 --> 52:42.400 has a major mystical experience and then comes 52:42.400 --> 52:44.540 back and describes it with words and people 52:44.540 --> 52:46.600 then live by the teaching and they just trust 52:46.600 --> 52:48.500 that it's true and in science 52:48.500 --> 52:50.300 we have a scientific method we have an independent 52:50.300 --> 52:52.500 variable that we vary and then we see what happens 52:52.500 --> 52:53.980 to the study and 52:54.500 --> 52:56.380 even though much of mainstream academia 52:56.380 --> 52:58.680 is not looking at non-local consciousness 52:58.680 --> 53:00.380 or consciousness beyond the brain there are 53:00.380 --> 53:01.900 people like the University of Virginia 53:01.900 --> 53:04.540 the Institute of Noetic Sciences there are people out there 53:04.540 --> 53:05.980 that are studying non-local consciousness 53:06.400 --> 53:08.420 and they're coming to very similar conclusions 53:08.420 --> 53:10.500 that consciousness is beyond the brain there is 53:10.500 --> 53:12.460 a mystical reality and what a lot of 53:12.460 --> 53:14.460 traditions have talked about for many many years 53:14.460 --> 53:15.960 seems to have validity 53:16.700 --> 53:18.540 yeah and and I love 53:18.540 --> 53:20.380 the fact that there's more and more people studying 53:20.380 --> 53:22.500 this stuff man and as Jason said 53:22.500 --> 53:24.280 we're kind of getting to the end here but 53:24.280 --> 53:26.100 I do want to follow up with 53:26.100 --> 53:28.500 another question and I have to say 53:28.500 --> 53:30.500 before that though like this this conversation 53:30.500 --> 53:32.260 which is why we had you on a second time 53:32.260 --> 53:34.580 in less than a year it's just been incredible 53:34.580 --> 53:36.260 man it's it's atypical 53:36.260 --> 53:38.440 our normal conversations this one is beautiful 53:39.020 --> 53:40.440 and you know our normal ones 53:40.440 --> 53:42.380 are we spend like an hour digging into the 53:42.380 --> 53:44.180 darkness of the police state technocracy 53:44.180 --> 53:46.400 and propaganda and we have 53:46.400 --> 53:48.440 to essentially like claw our 53:48.440 --> 53:50.460 way back to a white pill at the end of the show 53:50.460 --> 53:52.440 but this has 53:52.440 --> 53:54.580 just been an amazing conversation man 53:54.580 --> 53:56.480 it's just been a white pill from start to 53:56.480 --> 53:58.400 finish and you've laid out 53:58.400 --> 54:00.400 like this powerful evidence-based case 54:00.400 --> 54:02.000 man that we're we're not just this 54:02.660 --> 54:03.240 meaningless 54:04.000 --> 54:05.920 body of cells that 54:06.390 --> 54:08.180 that in our existence isn't just 54:08.180 --> 54:10.520 random accident a random accident in this 54:10.520 --> 54:12.360 dead universe man the model 54:12.360 --> 54:14.400 you describe where consciousness is fundamental 54:14.400 --> 54:16.600 and we're all interconnected is 54:16.600 --> 54:18.680 it really is it's the ultimate 54:18.680 --> 54:20.660 antidote to the status divide 54:20.660 --> 54:21.640 and conquer system 54:22.580 --> 54:23.840 it's why I 54:24.480 --> 54:26.940 found my way back from being this asshole 54:26.940 --> 54:28.460 atheist so many years ago where I just 54:28.460 --> 54:30.480 didn't there was nothing everything existed 54:30.480 --> 54:32.160 in my head and it was just 54:32.160 --> 54:34.800 a dark and horrible part of my life that 54:34.800 --> 54:36.620 that I found was hopeless man 54:36.620 --> 54:38.520 and now that they're studying it and 54:38.520 --> 54:40.660 people like you out there this this does 54:40.660 --> 54:42.660 renew hope and me and a lot 54:42.660 --> 54:44.060 of other people and 54:44.060 --> 54:46.640 you know this system though that we live under 54:46.640 --> 54:48.180 it requires us to believe that we're 54:48.180 --> 54:49.640 separate finite and 54:49.640 --> 54:51.320 like this in 54:51.980 --> 54:54.100 this constant state of competition right 54:54.100 --> 54:56.340 if truly if people truly 54:56.340 --> 54:58.140 you know deeply understood that 54:58.140 --> 54:59.780 we're all part of the same stream 54:59.780 --> 55:01.960 then the entire propaganda 55:01.960 --> 55:04.120 paradigm of us versus them 55:04.120 --> 55:05.600 that fuels this 55:05.600 --> 55:08.040 fucking entire horrible place that we 55:08.040 --> 55:09.580 brought been brought to that 55:09.580 --> 55:11.640 simply dissolves right 55:11.640 --> 55:13.060 so like this is 55:13.060 --> 55:15.620 the key to literally saving humanity in my 55:15.620 --> 55:17.020 opinion it's 55:17.420 --> 55:19.660 for me saving humanity from itself if you 55:19.660 --> 55:21.580 if you will the million dollar 55:21.580 --> 55:23.440 question is like how do we get there 55:23.440 --> 55:25.660 like we live in a world this practice 55:25.660 --> 55:27.620 look practically designed to keep 55:27.620 --> 55:29.460 our like I said earlier 55:29.460 --> 55:31.420 our receivers locked in our brains and boxes 55:31.420 --> 55:33.660 and on the lowest possible 55:33.660 --> 55:35.560 frequency just distracted 55:35.560 --> 55:37.280 by fear materialism 55:37.280 --> 55:39.660 pornography division you 55:39.660 --> 55:41.740 name it like there's just all that shit 55:41.740 --> 55:43.820 is out there and it's very difficult 55:43.820 --> 55:45.700 to break free from it if you have no idea 55:45.700 --> 55:47.260 that you're even trapped by it but 55:47.740 --> 55:49.600 for the person who is 55:49.600 --> 55:51.560 listening to this right now you know who can feel 55:51.560 --> 55:53.700 this this truth in their core 55:54.360 --> 55:55.280 what is the 55:55.280 --> 55:57.480 the most practical and powerful 55:57.480 --> 55:59.520 way for them to to change the channel 55:59.520 --> 56:01.620 like to quiet that noise 56:01.620 --> 56:03.840 of the technocracy get their ego 56:03.840 --> 56:05.420 out of the way and 56:05.420 --> 56:07.440 and tap into this shared consciousness 56:07.440 --> 56:09.560 more effectively in their daily life 56:09.560 --> 56:11.700 I do think this discussion 56:11.700 --> 56:13.420 today is the ultimate white 56:13.420 --> 56:15.440 pill because we're getting to the 56:15.440 --> 56:17.020 fundamental nature of reality 56:17.020 --> 56:19.520 and at the same time we are clearly 56:19.520 --> 56:20.760 somehow blocked 56:21.320 --> 56:23.340 on an everyday basis from 56:23.340 --> 56:25.560 that ultimate reality it's almost like 56:25.560 --> 56:26.980 there are layers of density 56:26.980 --> 56:29.080 that are in the way 56:29.080 --> 56:31.220 of a truth that some part of us 56:31.220 --> 56:33.220 must have known and that we have 56:33.220 --> 56:35.260 amnesia to which is a crazy 56:35.260 --> 56:37.360 idea the idea that we know things 56:37.360 --> 56:39.300 that we don't have access to in terms 56:39.300 --> 56:41.600 of our own knowledge but maybe through a near-death experience 56:41.600 --> 56:42.780 or through psychedelics or meditation 56:42.780 --> 56:45.200 people then will have a glimpse and then come back 56:45.860 --> 56:46.800 so to me 56:47.360 --> 56:49.180 it's ultimately about trying to get 56:49.180 --> 56:50.860 to the truth about existence 56:50.860 --> 56:53.360 and there's the meta truth which is what we're talking 56:53.360 --> 56:55.000 about today the nature of reality 56:55.000 --> 56:56.760 is consciousness fundamental or not 56:56.760 --> 56:59.180 and then there are these sub truths 56:59.180 --> 57:01.480 about well okay if we exist 57:01.480 --> 57:03.260 within these layers of density is it 57:03.260 --> 57:05.320 sufficient just to know that there is a higher 57:05.320 --> 57:06.680 consciousness that we're a part of 57:07.100 --> 57:09.080 and as we alluded to earlier I don't think it's 57:09.080 --> 57:10.940 sufficient at all because there are a lot of people who believe 57:10.940 --> 57:12.100 that who fall for psyops 57:12.800 --> 57:15.000 so there is a test of discernment 57:15.000 --> 57:16.580 here beyond just metaphysics 57:16.580 --> 57:19.160 and like I said it's why I've continued writing books 57:19.160 --> 57:20.520 because it's been mind blowing to me 57:20.520 --> 57:22.680 like wait they got so many things right 57:22.680 --> 57:24.600 but then how did they miss this how did I miss this 57:24.600 --> 57:25.680 I need to investigate 57:26.760 --> 57:29.060 and it leads people I talk about this 57:29.060 --> 57:30.580 in my book and into the upside down 57:30.580 --> 57:32.500 reset where I critique leftism 57:32.500 --> 57:34.600 and also the world economic forums great 57:34.600 --> 57:36.460 reset where there is this underlying 57:36.460 --> 57:38.220 desire for compassion 57:38.220 --> 57:40.600 which is a great thing we want to help people 57:40.600 --> 57:42.700 but blind compassion could be 57:42.700 --> 57:44.400 a dangerous thing because 57:44.400 --> 57:46.640 you might think something is beneficial to another 57:46.640 --> 57:48.620 and then recommend it what if it's actually 57:48.620 --> 57:50.580 harmful so there needs to be 57:50.580 --> 57:52.660 not blind compassion but compassion with 57:52.660 --> 57:54.780 discernment and discernment is 57:54.780 --> 57:56.660 really the key it's the thing I think about 57:56.660 --> 57:58.320 now how do we know that something 57:58.320 --> 58:00.100 we're told is actually true 58:00.100 --> 58:02.000 or whether it's a wolf in sheep's clothing 58:02.000 --> 58:03.240 or if it's just a mistake 58:03.720 --> 58:06.120 and that has led me to very basic questions 58:06.120 --> 58:08.440 like if someone tells me something is true 58:08.440 --> 58:10.340 in the field of medicine or cosmology 58:10.340 --> 58:11.740 or history or geology 58:12.320 --> 58:14.320 you name it the first question 58:14.320 --> 58:16.300 I asked now is how do you 58:16.300 --> 58:17.360 know that thing is true 58:17.360 --> 58:20.140 can you demonstrate it to me with direct evidence 58:20.140 --> 58:21.100 rather than inference 58:21.780 --> 58:23.720 and what I'm finding over and over again in 58:23.720 --> 58:25.940 discipline after discipline is that the models 58:25.940 --> 58:27.840 of reality we have beyond metaphysics 58:27.840 --> 58:29.980 are based on inference and then we build 58:29.980 --> 58:31.100 houses of cards 58:31.600 --> 58:33.180 without a strong foundation 58:33.180 --> 58:35.520 and mountains of inferences on top of it 58:35.520 --> 58:37.940 where there are things that have not been directly observed 58:37.940 --> 58:39.640 at the microscopic scale 58:39.640 --> 58:41.980 at the macroscopic cosmic scale 58:41.980 --> 58:43.900 and in between we have 58:43.900 --> 58:45.940 no direct observation for the thing that we're told is 58:45.940 --> 58:47.920 true and yet we believe it's true and we're told 58:47.920 --> 58:50.100 it's true by the authorities and we're not allowed to question it 58:50.100 --> 58:52.020 and that's a whole other can of worms 58:52.020 --> 58:53.500 that we're not going to have time for today 58:53.500 --> 58:55.640 but it speaks to this notion of discernment 58:55.640 --> 58:57.400 because Matt to your question how do we transcend 58:57.400 --> 58:59.520 all this stuff and whatever kinds of 58:59.520 --> 59:01.260 negative nefarious agendas 59:01.260 --> 59:02.900 seem to exist within this density 59:02.900 --> 59:05.760 we've got to understand the metaphysics, the ultimate white pill 59:05.760 --> 59:07.840 and then we have to be able to see through deception 59:08.380 --> 59:09.920 within the density that we live in 59:10.460 --> 59:10.940 dude 59:11.500 --> 59:13.280 I don't think there's been a better 59:13.280 --> 59:15.540 answer to a white pill question 59:15.540 --> 59:17.620 on this podcast ever dude 59:17.620 --> 59:19.920 I have goosebumps right now man 59:19.920 --> 59:21.700 that's a very well stated 59:21.700 --> 59:24.400 hey free thinkers this is Matt Agarist 59:24.400 --> 59:26.260 and I'm going to take a quick pause to remind you 59:26.260 --> 59:27.260 of something really important 59:27.260 --> 59:29.640 first off apologies for the interruption 59:29.640 --> 59:31.580 but if you're still here that means 59:31.580 --> 59:33.180 you're resonating with what we're doing 59:33.660 --> 59:35.400 and we need your help to keep it alive 59:35.400 --> 59:37.520 independent platforms like ours 59:37.520 --> 59:39.320 don't survive on corporate sponsorships 59:39.320 --> 59:40.920 or mainstream media funding 59:40.920 --> 59:42.760 we survive because of you 59:43.300 --> 59:45.980 if you're finding value in these unfiltered conversations 59:45.980 --> 59:46.980 and real solutions 59:46.980 --> 59:49.380 the best way to support us is by liking 59:49.380 --> 59:51.620 subscribing and sharing this podcast 59:51.620 --> 59:53.280 with your friends and fellow free thinkers 59:53.280 --> 59:55.880 it's a small act but it's a powerful one 59:55.880 --> 59:57.700 it helps us break through the censorship 59:57.700 --> 01:00:00.160 and algorithms designed to silence voices 01:00:00.160 --> 01:00:00.780 like ours 01:00:02.080 --> 01:00:04.180 this isn't just about supporting a podcast 01:00:04.180 --> 01:00:06.120 it's about standing for freedom 01:00:06.120 --> 01:00:07.180 exposing corruption 01:00:07.180 --> 01:00:09.800 and building a movement that inspires real change 01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:11.580 and if you want to go 01:00:11.580 --> 01:00:12.720 beyond liking and sharing 01:00:12.720 --> 01:00:15.460 we'd love for you to become a member of the free thought project 01:00:15.460 --> 01:00:18.260 just head over to the freethoughtproject.com 01:00:18.260 --> 01:00:20.880 and click on the TFTP membership link 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:22.180 at the top of the page 01:00:22.180 --> 01:00:24.660 as a member you'll be directly supporting 01:00:24.660 --> 01:00:26.740 our mission and helping us to stay independent 01:00:26.740 --> 01:00:29.600 your support is what keeps this platform alive 01:00:29.600 --> 01:00:30.220 and fighting 01:00:30.220 --> 01:00:32.860 so thank you for being part of this journey 01:00:32.860 --> 01:00:34.380 for sharing these ideas 01:00:34.380 --> 01:00:36.000 and for standing with us 01:00:36.620 --> 01:00:38.680 Mark dude you're such a really 01:00:38.680 --> 01:00:40.340 like really good speaker 01:00:40.340 --> 01:00:42.260 and these ideas are 01:00:42.260 --> 01:00:43.720 complex and very difficult 01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:45.660 to get across you know I know I 01:00:45.660 --> 01:00:47.640 just stammered a whole bunch of times 01:00:47.640 --> 01:00:48.560 trying to talk about them 01:00:49.020 --> 01:00:51.020 but you do a great job man 01:00:51.020 --> 01:00:52.820 and it was a really a pleasure 01:00:52.820 --> 01:00:55.280 it was a beautiful conversation that we had today 01:00:55.700 --> 01:00:57.360 thank you so much for coming on man 01:00:57.360 --> 01:00:58.540 before we go let's 01:00:58.540 --> 01:01:01.820 tell people where they can find, follow and support your work man 01:01:02.260 --> 01:01:03.540 well first I want to thank you guys 01:01:03.540 --> 01:01:04.680 for having me back on the show 01:01:04.680 --> 01:01:07.020 I love the conversation and thank you for all the work that you do 01:01:07.020 --> 01:01:08.420 I've learned a lot from you guys as well 01:01:08.420 --> 01:01:09.540 so I really appreciate it 01:01:09.540 --> 01:01:10.760 we need to have you on a third time 01:01:11.640 --> 01:01:13.040 any time you want 01:01:13.040 --> 01:01:13.720 I'm happy to chat 01:01:14.900 --> 01:01:16.320 my website is my name 01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:17.620 markgober.com 01:01:17.620 --> 01:01:20.760 I have seven books 01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:22.260 out there in paperback 01:01:22.260 --> 01:01:24.140 or hard copy some are hardcover 01:01:24.570 --> 01:01:26.880 you can get them in hard copy kindle 01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:27.920 and audible formats 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:30.300 I narrated all the audibles myself 01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:31.460 if that's what you prefer 01:01:31.460 --> 01:01:34.600 and also my podcast series which came out in 2019 01:01:34.600 --> 01:01:36.800 but it's still relevant on the nature of consciousness 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.100 where is my mind 01:01:38.100 --> 01:01:40.060 on Apple podcast, Spotify 01:01:40.060 --> 01:01:41.800 all the major players 01:01:41.800 --> 01:01:43.920 it features clips from 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:45.380 50 people that I interviewed 01:01:45.380 --> 01:01:47.400 including researchers and experiencers 01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:50.360 and if you decide to listen to it I suggest starting with episode 1 01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:52.040 and going chronologically to episode 8 01:01:52.040 --> 01:01:54.280 because it is an episode series that builds 01:01:55.060 --> 01:01:56.080 hell yeah man 01:01:56.080 --> 01:01:58.200 we'll have the links to all this down below 01:01:58.200 --> 01:01:59.840 the podcast description 01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:01.280 wherever you guys are listening 01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:03.480 thanks again man absolute pleasure 01:02:03.930 --> 01:02:04.420 thank you mark 01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:05.420 thank you 01:02:11.960 --> 01:02:13.560 thank you for listening 01:02:13.560 --> 01:02:15.960 to the free thought project podcast 01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.300 and please don't forget to rate 01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:19.840 review and subscribe 01:02:22.040 --> 01:02:23.380 free minds 01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:25.240 free people