WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.600 Welcome to Nomad Capitalists Live 2024 in Kuala Lumpur, KL, Malaysia. 00:05.420 --> 00:11.380 I'm Bob Henderson. I'm the Nomad Dad thrilled to be joined by Vussi Timbekwaiu. Vussi, 00:11.980 --> 00:17.260 welcome to Nomad Capitalists Live. Yeah, hi Bob. Thanks for having us. Love your outfit. 00:17.500 --> 00:21.500 You like it, eh? I had you in mind when I filmed this this morning. 00:25.640 --> 00:28.660 You're from South Africa. I am. And you're a young man. 00:28.660 --> 00:33.300 I'm from the beautiful land of the country in the southernmost tip of the most incredible 00:33.300 --> 00:39.340 continent in the world. And you have done some terrific things in a very short period of time? 00:39.480 --> 00:41.820 I don't know. I think God has been good. I think we've been very blessed. 00:42.080 --> 00:47.960 So, tell us about you. What can I tell you? So, I come from South Africa when we first 00:47.960 --> 00:53.180 started our firm Purely Coincidental. I had been an investor on a show called Dragon's Den, 00:53.240 --> 00:57.240 the original format owned by Sony in the US. You have a similar show called Shark Tank. 00:57.240 --> 01:01.880 And I'd been running a consulting firm. I had exited that consulting firm, 01:01.980 --> 01:05.400 had a little bit of liquidity and went and did these deals. And somebody said, you know, 01:05.420 --> 01:08.620 you should roll this up into like a structure, maybe start a fund. And I was like, 01:08.700 --> 01:13.020 would that work? And that kind of started us off on this incredible journey. So, 01:13.040 --> 01:15.500 when we first started, we were... And that would have been when? 01:15.960 --> 01:19.860 That would have been circa 2014. Okay, so 10 years. 01:19.900 --> 01:25.940 About 10 years. And so then we started. We started in all earnestness. 01:25.940 --> 01:29.860 And when we started initially, we were purely focused on South Africa. 01:30.020 --> 01:34.160 We then started looking at expanding our horizons. I think, you know, just for context, 01:34.420 --> 01:38.560 my vantage point is that because I traveled a lot of work globally and my network is global, 01:39.120 --> 01:43.060 one of the challenges we have, Bob, in attracting capital to the part of the world I'm from, 01:43.440 --> 01:47.900 is that the opportunity set is just too small to give you a seat around the table. 01:48.260 --> 01:51.860 And so, if you're meeting with an institutional investor anywhere in, you know, 01:51.860 --> 01:56.680 Northern Hemisphere for a conversation less than $50 million, this is not worth their time. 01:57.040 --> 02:02.620 And for us, $50 million is a very large fund with multiple assets across different geographies. 02:02.980 --> 02:09.480 And so there's kind of this need to create... You would understand that an instrument large 02:09.480 --> 02:13.320 enough that it can attract the capital at volume and deploy that capital at volume, 02:13.320 --> 02:17.660 but also with sufficient guardrails in place that it can actually manage that capital. 02:17.660 --> 02:21.060 And so we're on the path, we think, to building something like this. 02:21.080 --> 02:23.500 And we're very excited by the opportunity set. 02:23.820 --> 02:24.800 Sir, entrepreneur? 02:25.220 --> 02:25.540 Yes, sir. 02:25.980 --> 02:26.380 Investor? 02:26.480 --> 02:26.820 Yes, sir. 02:27.120 --> 02:27.520 Mentor? 02:28.080 --> 02:28.700 Yeah, I try. 02:29.420 --> 02:31.540 Consultant to Fortune 500 companies? 02:31.860 --> 02:35.940 That's right, yeah. So I first started... You know, my journey has been interesting 02:35.940 --> 02:38.360 because I came from kind of outside the space into the space. 02:38.760 --> 02:42.920 So I started public speaking when I was at school, then I was competing in public speaking, 02:43.420 --> 02:46.460 and then I won a number of international competitions and then got to travel 02:46.460 --> 02:49.480 and live all over the world, which really changes your perspective. 02:49.680 --> 02:53.960 And as a South African, it's something about which I'm very acutely aware, 02:54.220 --> 02:59.780 is that my vantage point is framed by the fact that I have had unbelievable international exposure 02:59.780 --> 03:01.560 at a very early age. 03:01.860 --> 03:09.480 So I was living in Australia and Sydney at 17 in 2002, I'd been to the UK, 03:09.800 --> 03:10.580 I'd been all over the world. 03:10.680 --> 03:13.340 So my world kind of really changed from that perspective. 03:13.340 --> 03:18.940 And so when I started working as a professional, I already had a public speaking career, 03:19.280 --> 03:21.240 and I kind of built those two in tandem. 03:21.560 --> 03:26.860 And it's been a very interesting journey to have an international perspective and 03:26.860 --> 03:31.020 a vantage point, but also try to build yourself out as a professional in a particular space. 03:31.220 --> 03:35.220 Why is it that Nelson Mandela had good things to say about you? 03:35.320 --> 03:37.920 What is it that you did that impressed him so much? 03:38.480 --> 03:44.120 Yeah, so I had just come back from an international public speaking competition, 03:44.320 --> 03:47.520 had won Audience Favorite Speaker Prize, won the competition, 03:47.920 --> 03:51.580 and then had the unbelievable privilege of meeting him. 03:51.780 --> 03:54.560 He'd heard about my winning this competition. 03:55.080 --> 04:00.420 Admittedly, I was much younger, then had more hair and a slightly thinner waist. 04:01.460 --> 04:04.380 And the newspapers had covered my story. 04:04.900 --> 04:09.720 And for the viewers watching this, the context of the story is important because 04:09.720 --> 04:11.700 we had come from apartheid. 04:11.860 --> 04:14.820 Nobody who looked like me, who came from where I came from, 04:15.040 --> 04:19.160 had ventured into public speaking at an international level 04:19.160 --> 04:20.840 and competed in one at that level. 04:21.240 --> 04:26.160 And so when I did do, this was covered by almost all of the press across South Africa, 04:26.440 --> 04:29.860 both print, television, radio across the spectrum. 04:30.340 --> 04:32.680 And I suppose he must have come upon this. 04:34.040 --> 04:38.120 And he'd penned a letter and addressed the letter and I got invited to meet him. 04:38.620 --> 04:40.260 And then, of course, I went to meet him. 04:40.440 --> 04:43.280 And it was just the most unbelievable opportunity in exchange. 04:43.900 --> 04:46.480 I often say to people who ask me, how was that? 04:46.600 --> 04:50.020 And I say, he literally had the ability to bend the laws of physics. 04:50.500 --> 04:53.480 He would walk into this room and the temperature would change. 04:53.960 --> 04:56.140 It would drop just that one and a half degrees. 04:56.380 --> 04:58.080 There are a few people like that, but not many. 04:58.600 --> 04:59.000 100%. 05:00.960 --> 05:02.600 And strong, strong character. 05:02.840 --> 05:03.920 He had a presence about him. 05:04.040 --> 05:07.080 If he sat next to you, you could feel his energy and feel his aura. 05:07.420 --> 05:11.560 I was a kid at the time, but even then I could feel that transmission of energy. 05:11.740 --> 05:17.680 And I think the world today is solely in need of leaders of that caliber 05:17.680 --> 05:21.220 who are able to step up and to do and say the things that are unpopular 05:21.220 --> 05:22.880 but are necessary for where the world is 05:22.880 --> 05:26.180 and for what we hope the world can deliver for future generations. 05:26.180 --> 05:28.900 Well, tell me about South Africa today. 05:30.920 --> 05:32.280 What's the state of affairs? 05:34.080 --> 05:37.880 So I like to think of myself as a person who's able to look at, 05:38.700 --> 05:41.140 as Jim Collins says, face the brutal facts. 05:42.040 --> 05:44.680 And I think if you look at the brutal facts, 05:45.240 --> 05:48.740 we have an economy that hasn't delivered the rates of growth 05:48.740 --> 05:50.640 that it has the potential to deliver. 05:50.640 --> 05:55.080 So for instance, over the past quarter, economy grew 0.4% 05:55.080 --> 05:57.980 in a like-for-like basis year on year, 05:58.280 --> 06:01.320 which is very poor for us over the past decade. 06:01.880 --> 06:04.700 Our economy has grown at less than 1% per year. 06:05.520 --> 06:08.720 Of course, you've got to ring fence the numbers around COVID 06:08.720 --> 06:11.120 because there was a massive drop in and then a massive spike up. 06:11.460 --> 06:13.220 But if you normalize for that period, 06:13.320 --> 06:16.400 we've had a sub 1% economic GDP growth rate. 06:16.620 --> 06:17.660 And all that stall speed. 06:18.300 --> 06:22.080 I mean, you've got to consider that our population, Kegar, 06:22.300 --> 06:24.520 I think is at about 1.6% the last time I checked. 06:24.900 --> 06:27.640 So you've got a population growing at a rate faster than the economy. 06:28.180 --> 06:29.980 Then if you look at the other macro factors, 06:30.580 --> 06:33.760 the largest part of our demography is young people. 06:34.660 --> 06:37.560 And we have an unemployment rate of young people 06:37.560 --> 06:40.960 well above 42%. 06:41.560 --> 06:44.320 The unemployment rate in the country by the broad definition, 06:44.940 --> 06:49.120 which for us includes people who've given up looking for work as above 40%. 06:49.820 --> 06:52.840 The unemployment rate by the narrow definition is above 30%. 06:53.360 --> 06:54.580 And to put that in context, 06:55.020 --> 06:57.040 when Hitler seized power in Germany, 06:57.320 --> 07:00.400 the unemployment rate was just nearing that 20% mark, 07:00.540 --> 07:01.600 I think just marginally over. 07:02.180 --> 07:04.440 So we have been teetering on the brink of playing 07:04.440 --> 07:07.680 with some very, very dangerous macroeconomic factors. 07:08.100 --> 07:10.580 In addition to this disenfranchised youth, 07:10.740 --> 07:12.540 the lack of work, lack of job opportunities, 07:13.180 --> 07:16.940 porous borders, lots of immigration into the country. 07:17.220 --> 07:17.600 From where? 07:18.340 --> 07:20.020 From different parts of the continent, 07:20.360 --> 07:24.180 driven in part by a lot of the geopolitical issues 07:24.180 --> 07:25.860 in some of our neighboring countries. 07:26.140 --> 07:28.180 So for instance, the issues around Zimbabwe 07:28.180 --> 07:29.720 are well known and well ventilated. 07:30.160 --> 07:32.660 So you've got Zimbabwe, you've had Mozambique, 07:33.040 --> 07:37.880 which had its own period of economic difficulty before that, 07:37.940 --> 07:39.520 had its own period of unrest. 07:40.160 --> 07:43.220 And a lot of that drives economic activity. 07:43.580 --> 07:47.240 Johannesburg still is the hub of the continent, 07:47.360 --> 07:48.580 and that nobody tell you different. 07:48.880 --> 07:50.840 I don't have the numbers off hand, 07:50.920 --> 07:53.920 but I read somewhere that if you just took Hauke, 07:54.100 --> 07:56.280 which is the province in which Johannesburg is based, 07:57.040 --> 08:00.480 and you benchmarked it against other countries in the continent, 08:00.600 --> 08:02.060 it would still be somewhere in the top 10. 08:02.460 --> 08:04.100 And I might be wrong on the exact number, 08:04.100 --> 08:05.520 but it's somewhere high up there, 08:05.520 --> 08:09.080 which is to say that even without the instances 08:09.080 --> 08:10.580 of geopolitical unrest, 08:11.040 --> 08:13.540 the economic opportunities in Johannesburg alone 08:13.540 --> 08:15.820 attract a lot of migrant labor. 08:16.620 --> 08:23.520 And so all of this feeds a country that is having difficulties, 08:23.680 --> 08:25.820 because you've got young people who come, 08:26.140 --> 08:28.600 I am in my family, what we call a first generation. 08:29.180 --> 08:31.100 So first generation means first university, 08:31.940 --> 08:33.600 probably first to start a formal business, 08:33.600 --> 08:35.180 first, first, first, first, first. 08:35.440 --> 08:38.840 I am that in my family, and I'm no exception. 08:39.240 --> 08:41.560 There are millions like me aren't there, right? 08:41.760 --> 08:43.880 And yet not all of us are given the same opportunities 08:43.880 --> 08:45.300 and pathways that I have been given. 08:45.940 --> 08:48.560 So you have this economy that's not growing, 08:49.200 --> 08:51.200 you then have migrant labor coming into the country, 08:53.200 --> 08:55.700 some are documented, some undocumented, 08:56.480 --> 08:58.140 finding its way into the labor market, 08:58.380 --> 09:00.920 and you can begin to see how this creates attention 09:01.860 --> 09:03.980 in society broadly. 09:04.360 --> 09:07.340 And then you add in addition to this the fiscal picture, 09:07.620 --> 09:09.220 just you've got to have a look at the books, 09:09.560 --> 09:11.280 the government has been running, 09:12.460 --> 09:16.060 and now they're in this program of constraining fiscal spending, 09:16.540 --> 09:19.360 cutting budgeting, the other day the education minister announced 09:19.360 --> 09:22.480 that they're cutting spending in the education sector. 09:22.840 --> 09:25.820 She estimates that they will be in a position 09:25.820 --> 09:27.260 where they'll have to let some teachers go, 09:27.500 --> 09:29.640 which is not good if you look at our public education system 09:29.640 --> 09:33.280 because it's already overburdened in our public education system. 09:33.980 --> 09:36.120 And so the fiscal picture doesn't look good 09:36.120 --> 09:38.000 because you've got an economy that's not growing, 09:38.540 --> 09:41.460 a balance sheet that is not growing from a fiscal perspective, 09:41.760 --> 09:44.440 and then of course they've enacted a national health insurance. 09:44.900 --> 09:47.940 And I want to be clear, I'm a believer in the free market. 09:48.640 --> 09:50.340 There's no such thing as a pure free market. 09:50.560 --> 09:53.640 I think none of us who operate in the free market system 09:53.640 --> 09:55.580 can ever say, well, this market is so pure, 09:56.000 --> 09:58.420 but I'm a believer that the freer markets are 09:58.420 --> 10:00.900 the better the opportunities people have to succeed. 10:02.220 --> 10:06.940 And ideologically, that isn't quite where South Africa's zeitgeist is. 10:07.160 --> 10:11.740 There's still a huge overhang of kind of that socialist conversation. 10:12.500 --> 10:16.000 And that drives, so you add all of these factors together 10:16.000 --> 10:19.580 and you begin to see the bubbling under the surface. 10:20.180 --> 10:21.640 Well, how did this come about? 10:21.800 --> 10:26.500 There's 40% unemployment and all the problems that you've discussed. 10:26.500 --> 10:28.760 How does this come about? 10:29.280 --> 10:34.620 Frankly, you point out that the unemployment rate was half of that 10:34.620 --> 10:35.960 when Hitler came to power. 10:36.020 --> 10:37.920 I think in the Great Depression, 10:38.160 --> 10:40.580 the highest unemployment rate in the U.S. was 28%. 10:41.200 --> 10:42.000 Well, that's right, yeah. 10:42.240 --> 10:46.600 My goodness, 42% is just way over the top. 10:46.740 --> 10:47.240 It really is. 10:47.540 --> 10:48.040 It really is. 10:48.120 --> 10:50.780 And there are some statisticians who are of the view 10:50.780 --> 10:52.820 that that number is still not an accurate reflection 10:52.820 --> 10:54.420 of what the realities on the ground are. 10:54.420 --> 10:56.520 But your question is quite pointed. 10:56.640 --> 10:57.440 How did it come about? 10:58.040 --> 11:01.360 And the difficulty, you'd be well versed in this, Bob, 11:02.240 --> 11:03.880 is the difficulty with the modern day 11:03.880 --> 11:06.440 is we have this tendency to simplify complex issues. 11:06.980 --> 11:08.620 This is a really complex issue. 11:09.000 --> 11:11.860 So there is a large part of it that is the apartheid overhang. 11:12.080 --> 11:16.460 The apartheid system was designed on an exclusionary framework and system. 11:16.840 --> 11:18.980 Here's how it worked and I'll give you the 15-second breakdown. 11:19.320 --> 11:20.780 Now go a little longer if you want. 11:21.080 --> 11:23.240 I'm not sure everybody understands how it worked. 11:23.240 --> 11:27.200 Because the people like me who looked like me 11:27.200 --> 11:30.200 and came from where I came from operated in an environment 11:30.200 --> 11:33.060 where by law there were certain things we were not able to do 11:33.060 --> 11:35.000 and certain jobs we were not able to have. 11:35.120 --> 11:37.080 And so this is in part why I'm saying in my family 11:37.080 --> 11:39.240 I would be the first person to reach a certain level of education. 11:39.680 --> 11:41.640 Because even though there might not have been a law saying, 11:41.720 --> 11:44.620 if you are black, you can't, the system was such 11:44.620 --> 11:47.080 that it was as near as makes no difference 11:47.080 --> 11:49.240 impossible for you to reach that level of education 11:49.240 --> 11:50.220 in the first place. 11:50.220 --> 11:53.340 And so the system of apartheid, apartheid 11:53.340 --> 11:55.820 is the direct translation into the English, 11:56.440 --> 12:01.360 was that there was an economy for white people in South Africa 12:01.360 --> 12:04.280 and then an economy for the rest of the peoples of South Africa, 12:04.400 --> 12:07.860 the majority of which over 70% is black African, which I am. 12:08.220 --> 12:10.380 Then we have what we call Indians and coloreds 12:10.380 --> 12:12.700 who are a different race designate. 12:13.020 --> 12:15.080 But the economy was built in large part 12:15.080 --> 12:17.300 to support only this population of white people. 12:17.300 --> 12:20.180 And so the rest of us then kind of functioned 12:20.180 --> 12:21.680 in other parts of the economic system. 12:22.000 --> 12:24.480 But predominantly my people, black African people, 12:24.880 --> 12:28.240 were the cheap labor into the economic system 12:28.240 --> 12:29.620 to get this economy to grow. 12:30.140 --> 12:32.060 And so that's the overhang. 12:32.580 --> 12:35.860 The missed opportunity is the government in power 12:35.860 --> 12:40.240 has had 30 years to really do meaningful transformation 12:40.240 --> 12:41.100 of this economy. 12:41.320 --> 12:43.260 This is to transform your network industries, 12:43.800 --> 12:46.460 build new infrastructure, bring a lot of investment 12:46.460 --> 12:48.480 into the country, modernize the economy. 12:49.460 --> 12:54.120 And in large part has missed that opportunity for several reasons. 12:55.120 --> 12:57.420 And again, complex, but for several reasons. 12:57.480 --> 12:59.020 One, self-interest, right? 12:59.180 --> 13:03.280 When you are a party as powerful as the incumbent was, 13:04.000 --> 13:07.440 I mean, at a point in time there were close on 70% of the vote. 13:08.020 --> 13:09.180 When you're that powerful, 13:09.280 --> 13:10.980 there just isn't a lot of incentive for you 13:10.980 --> 13:14.220 to transform and to change because your competitors, 13:14.540 --> 13:15.380 you know this in business. 13:15.380 --> 13:18.120 If you're 70% of market share and then, you know, 13:18.260 --> 13:21.420 the other 30 players are the remaining 30%. 13:22.180 --> 13:24.540 You tend to approach things very, very differently. 13:24.900 --> 13:27.200 And so one of the things that's shifting now 13:27.200 --> 13:29.620 is they have had a steady decline 13:29.620 --> 13:31.980 over the most recent election, the sharpest decline. 13:32.540 --> 13:35.220 The governing party went from 57% of the vote 13:35.220 --> 13:38.780 to 40% of the vote, shedding 17%. 13:38.780 --> 13:41.240 You think in business terms of their market share 13:41.240 --> 13:45.500 over a single five-year period is a marked difference. 13:45.980 --> 13:47.740 This changes the complexion 13:47.740 --> 13:49.200 because now that they're at 40%, 13:49.200 --> 13:51.300 they're having to work with other parties 13:51.300 --> 13:52.400 to govern the country. 13:52.860 --> 13:55.220 And those of us who are, and I always say to people, 13:55.440 --> 13:57.780 I don't care about the politics, I care about the people. 13:58.120 --> 13:59.540 And we just get the country to work. 14:00.080 --> 14:02.380 And we can differ in how we get there, 14:02.420 --> 14:04.200 but let's agree on what there is. 14:04.360 --> 14:05.540 Let's agree on the destination. 14:05.760 --> 14:06.300 What's the destination? 14:06.840 --> 14:08.940 You want a country that works, that is safe, 14:08.940 --> 14:10.680 we still have a massive crime problem. 14:10.900 --> 14:13.260 My own father was murdered when I was 13 years old. 14:13.480 --> 14:14.460 They never caught the killers. 14:14.640 --> 14:16.820 The docket was opened twice and lost twice 14:16.820 --> 14:19.460 because of the third issue, which is the corruption issue. 14:20.280 --> 14:21.680 And then you add on top of this, 14:21.800 --> 14:22.820 all these are the fiscal issues. 14:22.980 --> 14:24.260 It's quite a dire picture. 14:24.400 --> 14:25.900 Yet in the midst of this, 14:26.040 --> 14:28.080 I still come from the country that birthed Elon Musk. 14:28.320 --> 14:31.560 I come from the country that created Mark Shuttleworth. 14:32.080 --> 14:35.540 So we're still that people, we're still that country. 14:35.800 --> 14:37.260 And I think it's important, 14:37.260 --> 14:40.460 I'd certainly take it as a responsibility, Bob, wherever I am, 14:40.700 --> 14:42.660 to try and present the real picture, 14:43.100 --> 14:44.760 but also present the balanced picture. 14:45.000 --> 14:45.980 The balanced picture is, 14:46.300 --> 14:48.380 there's still huge upside, massive opportunity. 14:48.920 --> 14:50.540 If you're looking to be a long-term player, 14:50.540 --> 14:53.300 whose feet and hands are on the ground, 14:53.620 --> 14:55.920 doing the actual work, building with builders, 14:56.500 --> 14:58.340 we have a fantastic country and an economy. 14:58.820 --> 15:00.460 We still fantastic road network. 15:01.100 --> 15:03.300 We have ports, they work now. 15:03.440 --> 15:04.640 We had a recent issue with the ports. 15:04.780 --> 15:06.260 We're not working and functioning optimally. 15:06.260 --> 15:09.400 We have a fantastic banking system, great legal framework. 15:10.080 --> 15:11.940 And in my country, it still holds true 15:11.940 --> 15:13.760 that if you and I have a commercial disagreement 15:13.760 --> 15:14.840 and I sue you, 15:15.160 --> 15:16.380 the courts will actually hear the matter 15:16.380 --> 15:17.460 and the judgment will hold. 15:17.800 --> 15:19.360 And there are many countries in the world 15:19.360 --> 15:20.900 for which that is just not the case. 15:21.240 --> 15:23.060 So there's a lot working for us. 15:23.220 --> 15:23.940 So the infrastructure is there. 15:24.040 --> 15:25.440 Well, the infrastructure is definitely in place. 15:25.800 --> 15:27.440 This is why I said, 15:27.560 --> 15:29.760 I spoke about this lost opportunity of 30 years 15:29.760 --> 15:32.680 because the base infrastructure was really was there. 15:32.680 --> 15:36.580 And one hopes that this new spark, 15:36.780 --> 15:38.080 this new wave of optimism 15:38.580 --> 15:41.200 is going to reignite the country in the right direction. 15:41.460 --> 15:45.280 So Africa needs at the very least a 2% economic growth rate, 15:45.400 --> 15:47.280 GDP sustained over a period of 10 years 15:47.280 --> 15:49.480 to have any meaningful impact 15:50.040 --> 15:52.160 of drawing people into the labor market 15:52.160 --> 15:54.020 and beginning to reduce that unemployment rate. 15:54.220 --> 15:55.240 That's the first thing it needs. 15:55.500 --> 15:56.200 Second thing it needs 15:56.200 --> 15:58.480 is to become very intentional about migration 15:58.480 --> 16:01.400 and about controlled migration. 16:01.400 --> 16:04.020 And to be clear, I'm not saying shut the borders 16:04.020 --> 16:06.500 but I am saying I am a global citizen. 16:06.700 --> 16:08.100 That's why I'm a nomad capitalist. 16:08.580 --> 16:10.660 But there is nowhere in the world I am 16:10.660 --> 16:12.680 where I am not there without the proper documentation. 16:13.300 --> 16:15.100 And I don't know when it happened to Bob 16:15.100 --> 16:16.120 that saying to people, 16:16.320 --> 16:18.180 you can be here but follow the process 16:18.180 --> 16:20.580 became a politically volatile point. 16:20.960 --> 16:21.980 This is, otherwise, 16:22.160 --> 16:23.700 what's the purpose of having the law then? 16:24.520 --> 16:26.600 Yeah, no longer a country if you don't have borders. 16:26.940 --> 16:27.380 100%. 16:27.380 --> 16:30.900 So if we, I think if we get those simple basics in place, 16:30.900 --> 16:31.980 we would be on a home run. 16:32.260 --> 16:33.500 Well, what do you do about education? 16:33.820 --> 16:35.360 I mean, that is critically important. 16:35.620 --> 16:36.860 How do you turn that around? 16:38.020 --> 16:39.480 Does it get privatized? 16:39.880 --> 16:41.040 Sure, Bob, you know your stuff, right? 16:42.160 --> 16:43.600 So here is the difficulty. 16:44.800 --> 16:46.760 If you understand the demographic picture 16:46.760 --> 16:47.880 that I've painted for you, 16:48.180 --> 16:50.460 you understand the historic injustices 16:50.460 --> 16:52.880 suffered by a large part of the population, 16:53.900 --> 16:56.600 that also means that they don't have the economic means 16:57.140 --> 16:58.900 to afford privatized education. 16:59.540 --> 17:02.640 Now the state in South Africa says it is law 17:02.640 --> 17:05.200 that your children must receive an education. 17:06.760 --> 17:08.320 It's legislated in the Bill of Rights. 17:08.660 --> 17:10.420 So you must get an education. 17:11.320 --> 17:12.720 The difficulty is that, 17:12.940 --> 17:14.560 and there are many pundits about this 17:14.560 --> 17:15.600 in different points of views, 17:15.720 --> 17:17.920 but for those of us who track the data, 17:18.080 --> 17:20.100 the difficulty is that public, 17:20.440 --> 17:23.500 that the education levels of public education institutions 17:24.540 --> 17:26.560 has a long way to go still. 17:26.760 --> 17:28.060 And so what we've seen more recently 17:28.060 --> 17:31.620 has been an emergence of a number of private education players 17:31.620 --> 17:33.520 who've been stepping into the breach 17:33.520 --> 17:36.240 and filling that gap predominantly for the middle class. 17:36.400 --> 17:37.940 The large part of which it must be said 17:37.940 --> 17:40.740 has been a black middle class that's like myself, 17:41.020 --> 17:43.140 who've come from spaces where we are not middle class 17:43.140 --> 17:45.660 and can afford to not now be in the middle classes. 17:46.260 --> 17:47.960 And so there's been a provision of that. 17:48.500 --> 17:52.400 But you must understand that socialist ideological overhang 17:52.400 --> 17:54.000 because every time this happens, 17:54.240 --> 17:56.340 what happens is there begins a conversation 17:56.340 --> 17:57.500 in the political quarters 17:57.500 --> 18:00.600 that says private interest seems to be making an impact there. 18:01.060 --> 18:02.020 We need to stop that. 18:02.320 --> 18:04.040 And it's happened in the health system. 18:04.520 --> 18:06.840 And my view is that it might likely happen 18:06.840 --> 18:08.380 in the education system too, right? 18:08.480 --> 18:10.540 Where you find a state with respect 18:10.540 --> 18:13.920 that hasn't proven itself all that competent 18:13.920 --> 18:16.460 at running a particular thing, 18:16.760 --> 18:18.840 now thinking it can run the whole thing 18:18.840 --> 18:20.740 and even take it away from private interest. 18:21.000 --> 18:22.500 So education is fundamental 18:23.020 --> 18:25.360 and reducing the cost of education is fundamental. 18:25.840 --> 18:29.240 My view is you reduce the cost of funding of education 18:30.100 --> 18:31.520 by deregulating the market, 18:31.820 --> 18:33.960 by opening up for more players to operate in that space, 18:34.300 --> 18:36.740 by making it easier for people to do online education 18:37.360 --> 18:40.660 and all of those kind of educational technology platforms 18:40.660 --> 18:42.560 easier to operate in the space. 18:42.860 --> 18:44.060 And that if you do this, 18:44.620 --> 18:47.100 you know, it's the rising tide is elevating all ships. 18:47.340 --> 18:49.520 If you drive supply, 18:50.220 --> 18:52.020 then the demand is fixed and the price will drop. 18:52.480 --> 18:53.520 It isn't the inverse. 18:53.520 --> 18:55.720 And I think there'll be a bit of an ideological debate 18:55.720 --> 18:56.520 in the country at the moment 18:56.520 --> 18:58.100 about what's the way to go. 18:58.100 --> 18:59.200 I hate to be so morbid. 18:59.200 --> 19:00.260 Sorry about that. 19:00.380 --> 19:04.840 In the US, I think a big problem is this victimhood society. 19:05.400 --> 19:07.100 Now you talk about injustices there 19:07.100 --> 19:08.720 and obviously you're right about that. 19:09.200 --> 19:13.200 Is there a victimhood mentality today in South Africa 19:13.200 --> 19:16.300 which may be holding back a segment of the population? 19:16.640 --> 19:18.180 You know, one of the difficulties is that 19:18.180 --> 19:22.480 it's a real lived injustice for a lot of people. 19:23.520 --> 19:27.280 So I don't, my view isn't necessarily that 19:27.920 --> 19:29.520 it is the victimhood of the citizen. 19:29.780 --> 19:31.680 I think my view is it's who it is 19:31.680 --> 19:36.260 against which the citizens must hold that state responsible, right? 19:36.660 --> 19:41.080 So, and my view again is after a particular period, 19:41.640 --> 19:44.020 you've got to begin to look in the mirror and say, 19:44.200 --> 19:46.660 look, we might not like where we are, 19:47.160 --> 19:48.860 but perhaps we need to start looking at 19:48.860 --> 19:51.480 who's responsible for us being where we are. 19:51.760 --> 19:53.000 So that's the first thing to say. 19:53.520 --> 19:56.400 The second thing to say is we do have quite a way to go 19:56.400 --> 20:01.380 in terms of re-educating a large part of the population 20:01.980 --> 20:04.120 around not only personal responsibility, 20:04.420 --> 20:06.600 which I think is well-weaved into the system, 20:06.920 --> 20:09.860 but more importantly around how we can think of ourselves 20:09.860 --> 20:12.000 as global citizens because I think that's a big, 20:12.080 --> 20:16.060 big, big missing part for us in the conversation piece. 20:16.840 --> 20:19.600 But this, you know, this victimhood, as you call it, 20:19.600 --> 20:23.320 it's something all of us have to begin to straddle 20:23.320 --> 20:23.900 and to struggle with. 20:23.960 --> 20:26.780 And so I'm often on opposite ends and opposing ends 20:26.780 --> 20:29.840 with people who come from that particular perspective. 20:30.300 --> 20:31.640 And I try to meet them halfway. 20:31.940 --> 20:33.160 And one of the things I say is, listen, 20:33.260 --> 20:35.020 I understand why you say what you say 20:35.020 --> 20:36.940 and why you feel the way you feel. 20:36.980 --> 20:38.820 And I completely empathize because, 20:39.060 --> 20:41.140 actually, I have been where you are. 20:41.280 --> 20:41.880 I get it. 20:42.720 --> 20:45.520 But let's agree on who's responsible 20:45.520 --> 20:46.960 for your being where you are 20:46.960 --> 20:49.420 before we can talk about how you get out of where you are. 20:49.420 --> 20:51.420 Where I think South Africa is different 20:52.000 --> 20:55.300 is that there is only a certain amount of the blame 20:55.300 --> 20:59.100 you can apportion to who was responsible pre-94. 20:59.540 --> 21:01.080 And then a particular amount of the blame 21:01.080 --> 21:03.600 you must apportion for who's been responsible after that. 21:04.060 --> 21:05.440 It's a controversial point of view. 21:05.580 --> 21:06.460 It's a point of view about which, 21:06.500 --> 21:08.520 particularly on social media, I've taken a lot of heat. 21:09.140 --> 21:10.440 But it's a point of view that I hold. 21:10.860 --> 21:14.540 It's my point of view is study other parts of the world 21:14.540 --> 21:15.960 that have transformed themselves. 21:16.140 --> 21:16.800 We're here today. 21:16.800 --> 21:19.320 We had an entire session talking about emerging markets. 21:19.640 --> 21:22.320 And if you look at other emerging markets all over the world, 21:22.420 --> 21:25.480 you realize that 30 years is sufficient time 21:25.480 --> 21:27.300 for a government in power that has been intentional 21:27.300 --> 21:30.040 to have made a marked difference in the lives of its citizens. 21:30.580 --> 21:35.580 So we can't let those in charge escape that responsibility. 21:36.160 --> 21:38.600 Well, you heard my talk. 21:38.720 --> 21:39.840 I did, yeah, I really enjoyed it. 21:39.840 --> 21:40.700 I brought a chart. 21:40.960 --> 21:43.580 And I focused on four countries. 21:43.760 --> 21:45.480 Two great situations. 21:45.480 --> 21:48.020 And two not great situations. 21:48.240 --> 21:50.540 So the great situations were Poland, 21:50.720 --> 21:52.740 which was a communist country. 21:52.900 --> 21:56.100 So this was a chart showing GDP back to 1998. 21:56.580 --> 21:58.080 25 years, one generation. 21:58.580 --> 21:59.900 And it's been straight up. 22:00.800 --> 22:03.480 But they have all the disadvantages coming in 22:03.480 --> 22:05.220 because they were a communist nation. 22:05.740 --> 22:06.860 And look what they've done. 22:07.000 --> 22:07.800 It can be done. 22:08.020 --> 22:09.320 Estonia was another one. 22:09.700 --> 22:11.580 Not quite as good, but still pretty darn good. 22:12.100 --> 22:13.060 They weren't as oppressed, 22:13.300 --> 22:14.900 but they did answer to Moscow 22:14.900 --> 22:16.180 in the Cold War era. 22:17.000 --> 22:19.400 And the other two were rich nations that blew it. 22:19.840 --> 22:21.040 Argentina and Venezuela. 22:21.360 --> 22:21.820 Venezuela, yeah. 22:21.900 --> 22:25.140 So, you know, a little hubris in those cases. 22:25.400 --> 22:28.880 So the point is, it can be done, 22:29.060 --> 22:31.380 but people have to change the mindset, I would think. 22:31.480 --> 22:33.420 And it seems to me that's your big challenge. 22:33.840 --> 22:33.960 Yeah. 22:34.260 --> 22:37.140 I mean, I think you've absolutely nailed it. 22:37.180 --> 22:38.220 Now, here's the thing. 22:38.360 --> 22:42.000 And I could be criticized for making a racial comment 22:42.000 --> 22:43.140 because let's be honest, 22:43.140 --> 22:46.020 Estonia and Poland are primarily whites. 22:46.080 --> 22:46.300 Whites. 22:46.940 --> 22:49.040 And so to say that, you know, 22:49.280 --> 22:51.480 a country that's predominantly black 22:51.480 --> 22:57.600 would take on the things that you discussed, 22:57.740 --> 22:59.060 my personal responsibility, 22:59.680 --> 23:01.220 and looking in the mirror and saying, 23:01.240 --> 23:03.520 well, I have the ability to change this, 23:03.600 --> 23:04.660 that that might be racist. 23:05.080 --> 23:08.280 I'm imposing my white supremacy values on, 23:08.560 --> 23:11.760 well, how would you respond to that? 23:11.760 --> 23:13.140 I mean, it works. 23:13.320 --> 23:14.620 What they did, and you told me, 23:14.640 --> 23:16.060 you just want to see what works. 23:16.220 --> 23:17.820 That's what you want to see happen. 23:18.340 --> 23:18.980 I think. 23:19.320 --> 23:20.280 Is that the wrong approach? 23:20.620 --> 23:24.280 You know, one of the fallacies you learn 23:24.280 --> 23:26.260 in classical public speaking and debating 23:26.920 --> 23:29.660 is you're taught that just because you present statistics 23:29.660 --> 23:30.600 and data and facts, 23:30.760 --> 23:32.240 doesn't mean people will change their minds 23:32.240 --> 23:34.840 because some people are really committed. 23:35.180 --> 23:36.100 They're dug in, they're healed. 23:36.320 --> 23:36.720 That's right. 23:36.960 --> 23:39.200 They're just committed to a particular point of view. 23:39.360 --> 23:40.500 It doesn't matter what the facts say. 23:40.500 --> 23:41.520 And so the narrative, 23:42.060 --> 23:43.420 and so for them, this is my narrative, 23:43.540 --> 23:44.380 let me find the facts. 23:44.380 --> 23:45.460 Rather than these are the facts, 23:45.780 --> 23:47.800 let me try and substantiate and find the narrative. 23:48.000 --> 23:49.180 And in the world of geopolitics, 23:49.240 --> 23:52.420 one also can't oversimplify how connected the world is, 23:52.780 --> 23:54.140 how complex these issues are, 23:55.100 --> 23:58.200 and how different nations have different 23:58.200 --> 24:00.660 prouder asymmetries that plays itself out 24:00.660 --> 24:02.500 at a geopolitical nation-state level. 24:03.080 --> 24:04.480 But at the end of the day, 24:05.300 --> 24:07.860 here's what the lesson of history is. 24:07.860 --> 24:10.280 Where people have a point of view, 24:10.820 --> 24:11.920 a dream for which they're building, 24:12.400 --> 24:13.640 a vision that they believe in, 24:14.040 --> 24:15.580 leaders who are willing to take them there 24:15.580 --> 24:17.400 and are willing to hold each other accountable, 24:18.120 --> 24:19.220 they get it done. 24:19.740 --> 24:20.260 It's that simple. 24:21.820 --> 24:25.660 And I think we have to ask and answer the question, 24:26.340 --> 24:27.960 have we ticked all five of these boxes? 24:28.540 --> 24:31.180 One of the challenges I think we have in South Africa, 24:31.540 --> 24:32.560 again, I've said this publicly, 24:32.980 --> 24:35.240 I think there's a divergence of what is the vision 24:35.240 --> 24:35.860 for the country. 24:36.880 --> 24:38.720 And you know, as a father, 24:38.880 --> 24:40.220 you can't run a family without a vision. 24:40.720 --> 24:42.480 You certainly can't run a community without a vision. 24:43.000 --> 24:44.640 You can't build a society without a vision. 24:45.540 --> 24:47.540 So forget trying to build a country without a vision. 24:47.820 --> 24:49.740 And I think if you went to 10 different South Africans 24:49.740 --> 24:51.320 and said, what's your vision for this country 24:51.320 --> 24:52.220 for the next 20 years? 24:52.620 --> 24:53.540 The answers might differ. 24:54.120 --> 24:56.100 I spent a lot of time in many parts of the world. 24:56.180 --> 24:57.660 I just came back from the Middle East. 24:57.840 --> 24:59.240 I was just in the UAE. 24:59.460 --> 25:00.740 If you ask in Emirati, 25:00.860 --> 25:02.840 what is the vision for the United Arab Emirates? 25:03.280 --> 25:04.140 The answer is clear. 25:04.140 --> 25:07.200 Whether they're working in government office 25:07.200 --> 25:09.200 or are high up in the echelons of business, 25:09.280 --> 25:10.800 it's the same single answer. 25:11.680 --> 25:14.820 My view is that they must come at a time 25:14.820 --> 25:17.760 when as Africans, we draw a line 25:18.380 --> 25:20.300 on who we blame for our past. 25:20.700 --> 25:22.460 And we go from this point forward, 25:22.760 --> 25:24.640 we're going to talk about who's accountable for our future. 25:25.820 --> 25:26.900 And I have not yet. 25:27.200 --> 25:28.780 And you've got to look in the mirror 25:28.780 --> 25:30.360 and you're accountable for your future. 25:30.500 --> 25:32.100 And this is the point I was going to make. 25:32.100 --> 25:35.440 I have not yet seen a record of history 25:35.440 --> 25:37.760 where people have built a future 25:38.700 --> 25:41.900 by obsessing over who pained them in the past 25:42.680 --> 25:44.340 and getting stuck there. 25:44.780 --> 25:47.980 Now, it's important to have those conversations. 25:48.640 --> 25:50.340 It's important to clear that up. 25:50.840 --> 25:52.700 It's important to have true reconciliation 25:52.700 --> 25:53.460 and nation building. 25:53.980 --> 25:55.240 This is an example of what Africa brings 25:55.240 --> 25:55.980 to the rest of the world. 25:56.480 --> 25:57.900 Don't pretend that stuff doesn't exist. 25:58.000 --> 25:59.660 That's why we had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. 25:59.660 --> 26:02.340 Sit around the table, talk about who pained whom, 26:02.660 --> 26:04.820 who hurt whom, and why that matters. 26:05.180 --> 26:06.280 All of those things are important. 26:06.900 --> 26:08.640 And then there's a time when you draw the line of the sand 26:08.640 --> 26:11.360 and say, right, now how do we build for the future? 26:11.800 --> 26:12.580 Let's go get them. 26:12.760 --> 26:14.840 And recognize, and then lastly, one last thing, 26:15.360 --> 26:17.700 recognize that there's never been a time in history 26:17.700 --> 26:21.920 where a full population of a country started from the same point. 26:22.900 --> 26:25.860 I accept my disadvantage as a young black person 26:25.860 --> 26:27.980 growing up in a township in South Africa. 26:27.980 --> 26:30.200 I also accept that I'm not as disadvantaged 26:30.200 --> 26:33.280 as a young black female growing up in a rural part 26:33.280 --> 26:34.200 of the northern provinces 26:34.200 --> 26:36.120 who didn't go to a Model C school like I did. 26:36.540 --> 26:38.380 I accept that I have more privilege than her. 26:38.820 --> 26:40.720 And I accept that in the classes where I sat, 26:40.820 --> 26:42.220 if you were a young white person, 26:42.500 --> 26:43.880 you come from a different background 26:43.880 --> 26:45.280 and you were more privileged than I. 26:45.340 --> 26:47.520 I accept it, but then I draw a line in the sand 26:47.520 --> 26:49.540 and then I say, right, now that I've accepted it, 26:49.580 --> 26:51.460 let you and I go to the marketplace of competition 26:51.460 --> 26:52.320 because I'm going to show you. 26:52.640 --> 26:53.540 Let's write the exam. 26:53.680 --> 26:54.820 Let's see who's going to get the better marks. 26:55.180 --> 26:56.100 Let's do the competition. 26:56.100 --> 26:58.380 And I think if we take on that spirit of conquest, 26:58.520 --> 27:00.500 of competition, of personal agency, 27:01.500 --> 27:02.980 this is how greatness is built 27:02.980 --> 27:04.640 and this is how countries achieve for greatness. 27:05.200 --> 27:08.140 Is family big and important in South Africa? 27:08.740 --> 27:09.640 Family is big. 27:10.960 --> 27:12.300 Family is important. 27:12.580 --> 27:13.620 But like everywhere in the world, 27:13.720 --> 27:15.720 the institution of family is also under attack. 27:16.160 --> 27:18.280 I'm a believer and so I have my own personal view 27:18.280 --> 27:20.120 about what's happening spiritually 27:20.120 --> 27:21.660 and why I think that is. 27:22.280 --> 27:25.720 But it's a lot of... 27:26.660 --> 27:32.900 The way I try to explain the sometimes of the psychology, 27:34.100 --> 27:36.440 if you want to understand is a lot of... 27:36.440 --> 27:37.820 And this is what I think the United States 27:37.820 --> 27:39.720 does not yet fully appreciate. 27:40.240 --> 27:44.000 The United States is still the megaphone of the world. 27:44.840 --> 27:47.360 It is the largest exports coming out of the U.S. 27:47.800 --> 27:49.660 are not any of the projects you produce. 27:50.600 --> 27:51.840 It's the media you create. 27:52.540 --> 27:54.220 There are people all over the world 27:54.220 --> 27:55.400 who've never been to the U.S. 27:55.420 --> 27:56.220 but no rap music. 27:56.760 --> 27:58.620 And they can recite every single line 27:58.620 --> 27:59.820 by every single rap musician. 28:00.460 --> 28:01.880 If you want to be huge in music, 28:02.060 --> 28:02.880 in arts and entertainment, 28:03.120 --> 28:04.600 where you've got to make it is the U.S. 28:04.660 --> 28:06.420 That's why they say in New York, 28:06.920 --> 28:08.620 if you make it there, you'll make it everywhere. 28:09.420 --> 28:11.300 If you want to work in capital markets today, 28:11.400 --> 28:12.800 what's the place you want to go to? 28:12.880 --> 28:13.520 It's still Wall Street. 28:13.760 --> 28:16.560 And so for those of us in emerging and frontier markets 28:16.560 --> 28:18.020 and please my countrymen hear me, 28:18.020 --> 28:19.560 I'm not trying to belittle who we are 28:19.560 --> 28:21.060 and what we contribute to the rest of the world. 28:21.540 --> 28:24.440 But you can't argue still that the vantage point 28:24.440 --> 28:26.700 from which the U.S. transmits its message 28:27.220 --> 28:30.000 is just levels and levels above the rest of the world. 28:30.760 --> 28:33.080 The problem then is when the U.S. 28:33.120 --> 28:36.080 also transmits messages that often are 28:36.080 --> 28:38.120 counter the narrative of what is accepted 28:38.120 --> 28:39.760 in particular countries and their cultures 28:39.760 --> 28:41.300 that also permeates. 28:41.920 --> 28:42.880 So when the U.S., for instance, 28:43.100 --> 28:44.500 starts seeing things such as 28:44.500 --> 28:46.000 maybe family is not that important, 28:46.640 --> 28:47.280 that permeates. 28:47.280 --> 28:51.720 When the U.S. says things such as maybe a belief 28:51.720 --> 28:54.760 in a creator is not important, that also permeates. 28:55.000 --> 28:58.060 And I think to understand where we are, 28:58.300 --> 28:59.900 you often have to understand the messages 28:59.900 --> 29:02.500 that the U.S. is sending to the rest of the world 29:02.500 --> 29:04.040 and the U.S. has to understand 29:04.040 --> 29:05.620 that those messages do have implications. 29:05.920 --> 29:07.140 I think you're absolutely right. 29:07.220 --> 29:09.580 As a U.S. citizen, as I travel around the world, 29:09.660 --> 29:10.860 they find out I'm U.S. 29:10.900 --> 29:12.320 they get a smile on their face. 29:13.700 --> 29:15.940 Oh, I can't wait to come to the U.S. 29:15.940 --> 29:18.180 or I was in your country one time. 29:18.560 --> 29:19.140 Where did you go? 29:19.280 --> 29:20.820 Which is always New York or California? 29:21.120 --> 29:21.880 That's right, yeah, yeah. 29:22.240 --> 29:22.800 That's where it is. 29:22.920 --> 29:23.080 East-West. 29:23.380 --> 29:24.420 Yeah, so... 29:25.460 --> 29:26.640 And by the way, just on that, 29:26.820 --> 29:27.980 it's interesting how most people 29:27.980 --> 29:29.700 don't travel into the middle part, 29:29.740 --> 29:30.960 which is real America, right? 29:31.080 --> 29:32.540 That's a real way the U.S. is. 29:32.560 --> 29:34.160 Yeah, that's where we're from. 29:34.440 --> 29:39.060 So how does Africa, as a continent, 29:39.760 --> 29:40.540 stack up today? 29:41.120 --> 29:42.860 I mean, we're talking frontier markets, 29:43.040 --> 29:44.300 but what's the prognosis 29:44.300 --> 29:45.600 as far as you're concerned? 29:45.940 --> 29:48.140 Should I be thinking about investing? 29:49.460 --> 29:50.420 What's going on? 29:50.900 --> 29:52.480 It's investment 101, 29:52.680 --> 29:53.820 and you're a lot more experienced 29:53.820 --> 29:55.400 in the industry than I am, 29:55.660 --> 29:57.440 to always balance out your risks 29:57.440 --> 29:58.540 and balance out your portfolio. 29:59.040 --> 30:02.140 So once you've taken on the necessary 30:02.140 --> 30:03.020 positions and risks 30:03.020 --> 30:04.120 in more developed markets 30:04.120 --> 30:05.320 and spaces you understand, 30:06.100 --> 30:07.600 should you be looking at frontier markets? 30:07.600 --> 30:08.400 The answer is yes, 30:08.480 --> 30:09.400 because they do present, 30:10.140 --> 30:11.780 I think, a well-priced opportunity. 30:12.560 --> 30:13.640 Should you be looking at Africa? 30:13.820 --> 30:14.680 Of course I want to say yes, 30:14.680 --> 30:15.980 because that's our space, 30:16.120 --> 30:16.780 that's where we operate, 30:17.320 --> 30:18.380 that's home for us, 30:18.440 --> 30:20.140 and we genuinely believe in the people. 30:21.220 --> 30:22.260 What's the prognosis? 30:23.400 --> 30:25.340 The stats are out, 30:25.520 --> 30:27.300 and we were discussing some of them 30:27.300 --> 30:27.960 during conference, 30:28.140 --> 30:30.380 which is the growth of urbanization rate, 30:30.700 --> 30:32.600 the growth of people getting access, 30:32.720 --> 30:34.060 for instance, to power and electricity, 30:34.600 --> 30:35.640 that skyrocketing, 30:36.540 --> 30:38.580 the youth urbanization rate, 30:38.780 --> 30:39.660 the number of young people 30:39.660 --> 30:40.500 coming into the system, 30:40.660 --> 30:41.860 all of those, the macros, 30:42.140 --> 30:43.700 are in place, right? 30:44.680 --> 30:45.640 I would say though, 30:45.860 --> 30:47.020 if you're a global investor 30:47.020 --> 30:48.500 taking a view on whether or not 30:48.500 --> 30:49.280 I should be in Africa, 30:49.920 --> 30:50.680 as I said today, 30:50.900 --> 30:51.720 I gave those three tips. 30:51.800 --> 30:52.540 The first tip is, 30:52.940 --> 30:53.760 get a local partner, 30:53.900 --> 30:54.560 because you need somebody 30:54.560 --> 30:55.800 who's going to walk the path with you, 30:55.860 --> 30:57.140 because it's an exciting, 30:57.260 --> 30:57.960 but treacherous path, 30:58.420 --> 30:59.220 and you want to be there 30:59.220 --> 30:59.980 with people who are going to play 30:59.980 --> 31:01.060 the long-term game with you, 31:01.460 --> 31:02.420 and that's the strategy, 31:02.500 --> 31:03.240 often, that we take. 31:03.740 --> 31:04.380 The second is, 31:04.800 --> 31:05.760 have a time horizon 31:06.120 --> 31:07.760 that is consistent with the environment 31:07.760 --> 31:09.040 that you are operating in, right? 31:09.300 --> 31:09.580 This is, 31:10.260 --> 31:11.480 there are still many parts 31:11.480 --> 31:13.340 of particularly in frontier markets, 31:13.460 --> 31:14.580 not as much in the emerging parts 31:14.580 --> 31:15.060 of the continent, 31:15.220 --> 31:16.400 but there are still many parts 31:16.400 --> 31:16.900 of the continent, 31:17.040 --> 31:17.240 for instance, 31:17.400 --> 31:18.360 where liquidity is a challenge. 31:18.840 --> 31:20.400 So, getting into an asset 31:20.400 --> 31:21.060 might be easy, 31:21.080 --> 31:22.120 getting out becomes a problem, 31:22.460 --> 31:23.480 and there aren't a lot of players 31:23.480 --> 31:24.720 to whom you can exit, 31:24.900 --> 31:26.640 and so you're really hoping for, 31:26.760 --> 31:28.260 you know, an exit or a public, 31:28.720 --> 31:29.440 public exchange, 31:29.600 --> 31:30.880 or an exit in other parts of the world, 31:30.880 --> 31:32.420 and that presents its own time horizons. 31:33.280 --> 31:34.580 And then third, 31:34.740 --> 31:35.420 I think I would say, 31:35.560 --> 31:36.900 do it in the spirit, 31:37.160 --> 31:37.740 in the right spirit, 31:37.940 --> 31:39.300 do it to truly work 31:39.300 --> 31:40.120 with the local people, 31:40.280 --> 31:41.580 build and develop and recognize 31:42.640 --> 31:44.400 that you will have an impact 31:44.400 --> 31:45.720 beyond the balance sheet. 31:46.460 --> 31:47.360 And so you've got to be driven 31:47.360 --> 31:48.420 by wanting to have an impact 31:48.420 --> 31:49.140 beyond the balance sheet. 31:49.340 --> 31:49.580 For us, 31:49.860 --> 31:51.040 we're mission led 31:51.040 --> 31:52.220 in how we engage 31:52.220 --> 31:53.360 with partners and investors.