What happens if you've had cement poured around the foundational principles of science and medicine by medical school?
But slowly, but surely you start realizing it's eroding
Maybe you even pull out a sledgehammer and start breaking that cement from around your own ankles
When everyone else is telling you don't do it. Well, that's my next guest who is bravely
Moving outside of the conventional wisdom that he was you know drenched in in medical school
And has been making a journey into the deep dark abyss of
Scientific curiosity of vaccine hesitancy. I don't know. We'll see what he calls it. This is Joel Gader Warsh
Dr. Joel Gader Warsh
He supports certified pediatrician with a master's in epidemiology
For the world's leading researchers and doctors he's written books on parenting books on vaccination and he is a much needed voice of
reason in today's polarized health debate
Unfortunately
Vaccines have been one of the most controversial topics to the point where the word it was basically censored off the internet
Certainly on social media and other than if you said safe and effective you couldn't really say anything else
You can't ask any questions. I don't know about you guys
But I don't ever need to hear the phrase safe and effective ever again when you go through training
What you are taught isn't really about safety, right? You really learn about okay here are the diseases here are the vaccines
Here's the schedule. So go do it a vaccine doesn't have zero risk
And so I think it's reasonable to say okay, but what are the risks from this vaccine?
Does it lead to anything later? Do I have to do it now?
Can I do it later? And that's a very fair question
Nothing has ever shot me more in my life than when you actually go through the vaccine research when it comes to autism
I was always taught the science to settle things have been debunked. You hear it so
Confidently discussed. It's really frustrating as a human being and as a pediatrician to see this
Division and to see people getting so angry at each other and fighting and not
Discussing and not putting the kids first
I don't feel like parents feel like they're being heard and they don't feel like their safety concerns are being listened to
And it feels like it's about money and not about health and that needs to change facts
Well, he's the author of a brand-new book between a shot in a hard place
He's all over social media one of the fastest rising stars in the conversation around vaccines
Hesitancy awareness, whatever you want to call it. It's my honor and pleasure to be joined right now by Dr.
Joel Gator Warsh
It's great having you I've been getting a kick out of watching your journey
And of course we've met before and I've had you on a podcast before but not on the high wire. So
For this audience
You know
Tell me about your sort of medical journey into this vaccine conversation
So for me, I did all the regular medical training actually grew up in Canada
So I guess it's appropriate and I'm on this episode since so much Canada talk
But I did residency at Chilms Hospital, Los Angeles. So great Western medical program didn't really think much about vaccines at that time
You know, we're trained about
What the horrible diseases are how great the vaccines are here's your schedule and go do it
And that's really all that I thought then but I met my now wife during residency. She's very holistic minded
She opened up my eyes to a little bit of a different world started doing some training and integrative medicine and functional medicine
Everything you hear about it in in medical training. So it's all woo woo and out there
I went to some functional medicine courses and you're there and like, why aren't we taught this?
There's nothing woo woo about nutrition
Which is the biggest difference between sort of functional and you know, allopathic or western
It's just the way of thinking and in allopathic medicine where you're in training everything is here are the symptoms
Here's the pill. It's very pharmaceutical minded. You're not really thinking about root cause
You're not really thinking about. Oh, you have a rash. Why might you have that rash?
You're thinking about how do you treat that rash? What is that rash?
So I think it it's just very different and as soon as you start learning that you're like
There's nothing crazy about this. Why aren't we thinking this way? Why wasn't I taught this?
So I just got really interested in that
started practicing in that way and very quickly once you are
In that world you realize parents have a lot of questions about vaccines
And I realized very quickly. I knew almost nothing about vaccines and didn't have anything to come in as a doctor
What year did you start your own practice?
I've been in practice for a little over 10 years. So about just a little over a decade
Okay, so prior to covet you're at it. Oh, yeah, well prior to covet. Yeah, I finished training around 2013
Okay, um and have had my own office for about eight years
okay
Um, so as you're starting to see patients
They start having better and better questions and I didn't have the answers to those questions
So I had to start looking into it and as you look into some of these questions
You start to realize that what you're taught
Or what we're not taught is really everything like I didn't know the answers. And so I started looking into it
The answer is very much surprised me
And the more I was discussing it in the office the more I felt that I needed to look into it
And certainly as I was developing an interest more in vaccines that was around the time when there was so much censorship
I mean, certainly before covet and during covet. There was just so much censorship. It wasn't something
I felt very comfortable talking about
outside
Of the office. I mean, I was even on secretary back then he was in secretary. Kennedy
But I was even on his podcast and and we talked about children's health
But not vaccines because back then nobody really wanted to
Well, you were I mean, I'm just thinking about the timing because you're in california, right los angeles
And that's the same time I'm working on the doctor's television show
It's like 2013, but right around 15 16 sp277. I mean, you know california became this powder keg
For this conversation. It was you know sp277 a lot. It's gonna force
Vaccinate children in order to go to school. You're right there
I mean just entered in and now it's just like, you know protests, you know
Thousands of people wrapped around the Capitol
What was that? I mean, what effect did that have on you as you're watching because it's one thing to just have questions in your office
But california was like, you know on fire over this issue
It made it very difficult to be a doctor because
You couldn't just have these discussions. You couldn't talk about it
You don't have options for your patients and the longer it went on
I mean when a lot of that was starting I was just very young in my career, but
As things have moved along. I mean, we've really seen all
Of our options taken away like you really can't give an exemption in california anymore
There's really no way to do it unless somebody has a very severe reaction basically dies
And even then it's really hard to prove it
So
The options were taken away and again that made me very frustrated because there are patients that legitimately
Should have exemptions that you feel like you should have exemptions and you shouldn't feel
Like you can't give this person an exemption or you might get your medical license taken away
And that is the way that it is. I mean, there's no question. You cannot give an exemption right now in california
And and and I still think that's
unbelievably
Infuriating and I have patients that come to my office that you know, they swear by whatever the story was that happened to their young kid
And it's totally reasonable that they should at least be considered to have an exemption if the parent wants to do that
And you still can't do it. It goes through public health. They just shut most of them down and then you get investigated for for doing it
How do we have a system that's like that?
There there has to be kids that need legitimate exemptions. There have to be kids that have reactions to vaccines
There's nothing
Controversial about that you can debate what's related to vaccines
But you certainly can't debate that kids could have a seizure could have a
Myocarditis could have issues and nobody wants to ever admit that flax is an allergic reaction
I mean just simple
There's no product. There's no food on this earth everyone can eat
Yeah, I had a kid a family that came to the office and
their baby
It was around two months got vaccines that same day had a super heart fast rate
Over 200 went to the hospital
They weren't sure what was going on everything calmed down
Luckily and and the parents were worried. Oh, was this a vaccine reaction? Everybody convinced them that it wasn't a vaccine reaction
Even though it was on the same day
So they again at four months went back to the doctor
Still hesitant, but doctor convinced them to do the vaccines again
They did same exact reaction happened
And kid had super fast heart rate went to the hospital
They were there for a day everything calmed down after that and still nobody was willing to say that that was because of the vaccines
And at six months they went back to the pediatricians office and the pediatricians was going to kick them out
If they didn't do their vaccines again
And and the parents were like look we're not anti-vaccine or older kids fully vaccinated
But this kid's clearly having a reaction. Can we not at least wait till we're older?
Yeah, still they were they were kicked out. So I met them, you know later on in their journey
But it's like how can you not sit back and see something like that and say there is something
Very wrong with our system where if a patient
Says that that the doctor's going to dismiss that if they come to my office
I still probably can't give an exemption for that because you need documentation
You need proof you need to show that it came from the vaccine
You can't prove a hundred percent that happened after the vaccines, but come on
You have that story, right?
What else are you thinking it and even if it's not because of the vaccine shouldn't that be the person
Who qualifies?
Under the you know the benefit of the doubt to say look, maybe this is not the kid that we need to
Association close enough everyone else's vaccine. What harm are they?
You know what I mean? Is this gonna is this one child gonna kill our you know hurt or
And everything's about risks versus benefits right and in that scenario you have to look at that kid and say
This kid's probably at very high risk to have another severe reaction
Maybe they're gonna have a heart attack and the heart's gonna stop at this time
Should the parents not have the option to say?
Well, I understand that my kid could get whooping cough
But I I think the risk is much higher than my kid's gonna have a heart reaction like they did the last two times
I'm saying
Yeah, that's basic medicine and that's not anti-vaccine or anything out there
That's scaring parents into doing something that might cause their kid harm. That's way too far
We have to come back to some sanity
Which you are now I would say one of the leading voices trying to
Navigate a middle ground a middle sensible ground
Here's your book between a shot in a hard place
Tackling difficult vaccine questions with balanced data and clarity. I've been watching your posts
On social media around some of these decisions coming out of the cdc hepatitis b
You know and then you've got the american academy of pediatrics, which is
You know your you know organization if you will you are a pediatrician saying don't listen to cdc
That's not science
Um, which has got to make it difficult. I mean I you know
And I'm I'll be honest with you. I'm in a place where I have no forgiveness for doctors any longer
There's just too much information out there. If you're not questioning it you you don't have a brain
I'm sorry. If you're not like saying I just cannot just go along with a blanket
It's safe and effective any longer. We're way past that point
But let's talk about the american academy of pediatrics for a second
There I think they're giving pediatrics a horrible
Name at the moment what they're saying is there's no science to what is happening at aghs removal of the hepatitis b vaccine
Covid vaccine shared decision-making. You know, this isn't something that's going to be mandated on kids
um
How do they say that that's not scientific?
I'm very very frustrated with what's going on. I think everybody should be there's no logic
To this back and forth that's going on the lawsuits. Nobody's sitting down having discussions. That's not going to help anybody
We're not seeing any real dialogue. It's just anger lawsuits. Oh, you're going to say this
We're going to do the opposite and and that leaves all of the parents confused
It doesn't move anything
Onto the next step and it doesn't even let us know what to do as a pediatrician like I
I it's so confusing right now
I think it's the most confusing time ever and I said that many times. I don't know what parents
Are thinking right now. I don't know how they can make a decision. It's so
All over the place with what they're hearing
and that that makes it
Very tough to be a parent right now, especially with a young kid
You're hearing all sorts of different things and and so what do you what do you do with that? I don't know. So I think
the American Academy of Patrick's is
Trying to take a stand against what's going on, but at the same time they're really making themselves
Look bad. I think I think really putting doctors in a place where
It's very adversarial people don't like doctors anymore
They used to be you can look at the statistics that there's in different studies that are quoted, but the recent one, you know 70 to 40 percent
popularity before and after
Covid I think with everything that happened
public health
Is destroyed in terms of any sort of trust any trust in doctors is destroyed and I'm seeing that
More and more even just in the facebook chat groups where I'm lurking in the background where people talk about things
And you're seeing all sorts of doctors not know what to do patients are
Coming in at a rate of not wanting to do vaccines. That's so high
That they're worried that they're not going to have enough patients
I mean I've seen that in multiple groups of doctors saying well, we
Should we change up our policies because there's so many practices that don't take don't take patients unless they fully vaccinate on the schedule
And and there are so many people coming in that no longer want to do that
That it's creating discussion amongst the doctors about whether they're
Going to change it or they feel like they need to change it whether they could
Maybe prioritize some of the vaccines and and and those are the ones so it actually
Things are changing because people are changing it and and I'm really shocked to see it, but
It actually in the real world parents are more skeptical than they ever have been and that's pushing back
on doctors to have to think about this
And I don't think that the lawsuits and what the american academy is doing
ultimately is going to serve
Things in the best way
We saw what happened when we mandate things nobody wanted to do it
and
Very few people were doing cova shots in the last year and I think the same thing is going to happen the harder
The american academy pushes and the harder doctor pushes to force vaccines
The fewer people are going to do it. That's not the solution. That's not the direction forward
The direction forward needs to be
Here's the information. Here's the benefits that we see. Let's discuss the risks
Let's figure out what those risks are and let's try to find some middle ground
Of where that should be based on the science and data as opposed to shoving it down people's roads
Which seems to be where we're at. It seems like they're digging their heels in and pushing back as opposed to
Being like, okay. Well, here's what secretary kendi saying. Here's what we agree with. Here's what we don't agree with
Let's discuss that
I have got like
I rarely in an interview have like 20 questions that i'm excited about like how am I going to remember all of that
Because I want to get through them because you brought up some things
I have not thought about but first of all my first question would be
This moment is very specific. Um american academy pediatrics this this pushback as you're saying
This is the hardest time that you can imagine ever having been a doctor
It's also one of the hardest times having been a parent you've been posting a lot about that
You're talking about these conversations in your and you're saying these numbers are climbing
So would you say?
You know anecdotally from your experience that this this push by american academy pediatrics to defy
new cdc guidelines
Which I think seemed very sensible
Let's join denmark and other nations that are just having they're not having outbreaks of polio
They're not having outbreaks of smallpox the big fear signals, you know, it seems to be perfectly fine in other nations
Why don't we just reduce down to that? There is science behind that
They talk the scientists that are seeing success there
But would you see would you say that this push by american academy pediatrics and gavin new some state of california?
I think other states, you know that are hawaii's looking to join this defiance group
Is that
In have you met anyone any, um, you know parents coming into your practice that that is
incentivizing them to take more vaccines
I don't think it's incentivizing people to take more vaccines. I think it's making people question everything because once
They saw what happened during covet and saw the public health messaging now. They're concerned about everything
I wouldn't put this all in the american academy pediatrics. There are many other organizations
I think it's just public health and mainstream medicine in general. I think american academy is part of it
These states are saying
We're going to use america. We're not we're no longer going to make our vaccine program based on the cdc
We're going to make it back based on the american academy pediatrics
That's that puts it in a different position than every other agency or or
You know non-profit or whatever out there
They do get a lot of funding from the pharmaceutical industry
But they're putting they're being put in a position whether and they must be asking for it use us as your reference
So I think they they carry a lot of weight and they they need to be we need to talk about that
But you also brought up something I find interesting which is
As a doctor, I hadn't even thought about this
You know
If you're a doctor that gives vaccines to those that want it and those that you know, don't you give them
You have a balance inside of your practice
We know most of the funding that comes into the pediatric practices through the sale of vaccines
You know guys like you are being put in an
unnaturally, you know
underpaid
Salary position because all the other pediatricians are saying I'm not I'm going to take you
So I'm assuming you're in this group you bob sears others
Where you have a line out the door of people that are coming to you to not pay for vaccines
How do you make a living? Yeah, well
So first of all we have a hybrid practice. So we have the membership model. Okay
We also
You definitely do make some money from vaccines
I don't think you make as much as people think that you do because you're making money off of visits too
So you are seeing patients and you get paid for the visit along with vaccines if you're you're giving vaccines
Generally, there's you know, you can make a little bit of money off of each vaccine
I think when it comes to vaccine
When people are talking about it, it's in the aggregate
So if you're doing a lot of vaccines, you're making a few dollars that can certainly add up over time
Especially in a big system a few dollars can really add up for that system for vaccines, but
For me, it doesn't really affect me all that much
I think if you were in a like a Medicaid, Medi-Cal type of clinic
It might affect you a little bit more because those margins are so small but ultimately
You have to do what what seems right and and there should be no reason that you can't see patients and have a financially stable practice
By just seeing patients and letting them do whatever they feel like is best for their family
So you're using more of a membership concierge model, which we're hearing
But I can do that just like you said because we have a line about the door, right?
I mean, I can't take 99% of the patients that come that want to come to us right
But you know the other issue, you know to bring up
Because I mean I don't want to make an example like this is the difficulty, but it becomes elitist. Does it not?
I mean a little bit that those of us that can afford to
You know, I have a membership pay up front
My insurance covers it great. If not, you know fine. That's what that whole system is
You know, I'm in you know, I have a practitioner I go to but I just think
What about all those people that are struggling to make ends meet probably using their last dollars if they're watching the high wire to buy organic?
You know, uh, which is I think incredibly important
But then they're outside of this, you know system. How are we going? What would be your recommendation?
To getting around how do we get to a place where we're all getting equal care?
Well, I think there are a few different ways
I think we would have to change the rules around kicking people out and discriminating
That would be one way to make sure that all practices are taking patients
But ultimately the real way to get there is to get the research that we actually need to convince the doctors
Of the science behind vaccines and we can go from there. I mean, I still think we don't have the research
I think that the Henry Ford study what you brought out is probably the best that we have
And even that is still not perfect. I mean, we need prospective studies, but we need 20 studies like the one that you showed
We need the
We need the Henry Ford research to be
Reassessed we need to be peer reviewed
We need the same thing at Harvard and Kaiser and in Denmark and wherever and let's let's see if what
They found
Is correct if you start seeing that trend with good data
That would start to open up people's minds a little bit in the medical world
They wouldn't be able to dismiss that totally
But we haven't even been able to get that research re-reviewed. It's just oh, you know
Henry Henry Ford says it says it says it's no good. It's like you have on camera the doctor saying
He didn't want to get it published
And you you could look at any of the research out there and that study is certainly as good as most of if not better than
The vast majority of vaccine research that we have there's no question about that
You can poke holes in that study. You can poke holes in any retrospective study. That's why they're not great
They're as good as you have
but
The fact that we don't have 50 of those studies
When we're giving more and more vaccines, you know 30 plus vaccines to kids
it's insane that we wouldn't have that and
I think if we did that research
if we did 50 studies if we
Did prospective studies and everything was the same in the vaccinated breast
Unvaccinated group everybody's tune would change including yours including secretary candies
Nobody's here saying that you couldn't ever have a vaccine that's useful
Or you're always going to have these huge risk with vaccines. The question is what is that risk?
And we don't have any idea what that is and as we add more and more vaccines
You can't just assume that they're never going to cause a problem. That's insane
And that's what you see when you talk to these doctors. They just assume that more is better
Always every vaccine is good
And and they never go backwards and like you were discussing with the kovat vaccine. There's no ability
To look back in the past and say well, you know, here's what we thought then
Here's what's going on now. We have a disease that doesn't seem as concerning as it used to be
So well, let's at least just say we could
recommend it
But we're not going to require anybody to do it ever again because it clearly the risks are not what they used to be
And or clearly the benefits are not where they used to be and and we're just still not sure what the risks are
We can't possibly be I think they're I think aap is committing suicide
I think Gavin Newsom's committing political suicide on that one vaccine especially there's two
You've talked a lot about all the vaccines on all of them definitely
But everybody knows the kovat vaccines a disaster. Everyone knows it doesn't stop transmission
Everyone is starting to question if you know, if I'm getting sick three times after and or friends that have seven shots
And it's doing nothing to protect them and more and more studies showing
You know myocarditis pericarditis if the these amyloid plaques and prions
I mean god knows what future we have in this species
But forget about all of the doctors that have are just, you know
You know a part of a religious
Cult or whatever you want to call it, you know
Hypnotized by their education. You are not and and I appreciate not any more
But I I question based on what you just said
I know you're trying to find this middle ground. You're saying parents are confused. What is you know, where's the you know
And I've watched podcasts. You're in
Gary Brekker just recently said, you know one side is saying you take the vaccines
You're gonna die the other side is saying if you don't take the vaccines, you're gonna die
There's a middle ground, you know, we know there has to be middle ground. Do we know
Do we know there's a middle ground like how I know this is your pursuit
And based on what you just said, which you're right
there's
Frankly almost no science on the safety of vaccines. There's certainly no
Dependable science
Properly done science. There's definitely no placebo based before we even go out, you know
Prospective study that was done correctly prior to lessencing these products and then everything's retrospective after that
And that's you know vulnerable to bias
You know it. I know as you're looking deeper into it. So how when you say I'm trying to find the middle ground
How do you go from the middle ground? Which is clear vaccine injury has to be possible
COVID vaccine injury now documented
You know, then you have people complaining
And then you have the sickest children which you talk a lot about auto immune disease running rampant
Seems pretty obvious if your immune system's out of whack, maybe we should look at the product
That is, you know inciting your immune system. But then on the other side
No, you know on the pro vaccine side, frankly nothing but bold loud statements and no science
backing up at safety
So where how do you pursue middle?
Let me start here because you mentioned this and I think it's so interesting in the same week
I could get an email from a very pro vaccine person saying that I'm killing kids
Because I'm talking about any sort of risks around kids and that and that very thing we could get
An email from somebody who's very anti-vaccine saying I'm killing kids because I'm talking about
How vaccines might have some benefit and so
There are two very loud extremes
I think most people are in the middle and the reality now that I've been in this for a while
A lot of people are actually much more in the middle and a lot of doctors are starting to hear this. I think
The best thing that's happened so far with Secretary Kennedy no matter what you believe about him is he's brought this out
And and it's a conversation. You can't you can't go back. It's a public conversation
You can't say we're not moving towards the middle now
It's way over here and it's you know moved here, but
You can't say that we're not moving more to the middle with discussions around hepatitis b with changes to the CDC schedule
With discussions around autism. I mean these things were never even talked about before
Most doctors were never even aware of it. They are now they're aware of it
People are going into the office and not wanting to get vaccines. Doctors are questioning what they should or shouldn't do
They're looking into it. They're talking about it. So we are
Very slowly moving in that direction and I hope
That as we continue to move forward that's going to push the research that's actually needed to move the doctors
because right now
I think the unfortunate part is whatever Secretary Kennedy is doing
Is very open to being all just replaced in a few years if he's not there
And that's not going to move things forward changing the CDC schedule is doing nothing, right?
I think it's it's really great in terms of discussing because I think it's opening up that discussion
But ultimately if he says okay, we're doing the CDC schedule
It's going to be this way and all the doctors say no no
We're just going to do the aap schedule, which is what was before
If he's not there in three years, they're just going to say we're just putting it back, right?
That's what would happen. So I think
But what would happen to all the doctors like you and I think they are increasing there's more and more
Doctors are quietly starting to say hey, look, I just met with one in Canada
I just had just watched an inconvenient study and he said I am literally saying to my patients right now
I've got four
pregnant moms that are wanting to know what my opinion is on vaccines and he said I
Am officially taking a hiatus from the conversation. I don't even know what to tell you
I'm starting my own research. She said based on your film
I've got a refrigerator full of vaccines
Brought up meningitis as a concerns like but I don't know what the safety of that you're right
I mean, I am worried about meningitis, but I don't know how much harm that single vaccine can cause
I don't know where to find that information. Who's brand new
to this
But very insightful very thoughtful and it's just a fascinating conversation
I don't know that this just swings back now. They'll use authority to swing it back, but you're not gonna you can go
Hold on a second. I mean, would you change with your patients if suddenly cdc is back under, you know
So I think the schedule could change back. I don't think you can put back the conversation
I think that has changed for good now
I don't think you can go backwards to the point where people don't understand the vaccines can cause a problem
I think the real question is can we get to the point where the science
Could catch up to the point where people are actually willing to do their studies and then willing to look at those studies honestly and say
Okay, well, here's where the risks are with vaccines. Let's make better vaccines. Let's
Use fewer vaccines. Let's let's figure out where that balance is for kids health or let's just at least not require them
I mean, it's a very easy place to start. Let's not force anybody to do anything
That should be, you know, the the bar the low bar certainly in a free
Country there and we don't most places in America don't require them for school
Right, those states are doing just fine. Most countries don't require vaccines to go to school. They're doing just fine
Well, I do I would say let me correct that for anyone watching this brand new today
Every state requires them
They have exemptions. They have exemptions, but they're not very forthcoming about it
And if you just showed up, you won't know they won't tell you by the way
You can just opt out you have to go out of your way to find that information
But you're right. There's only five states currently
That just have no exemption whatsoever. So it's a little different than not having it mandated. You have to sort of go out of your way
I'm curious because in our our nonprofits called informed consent action network
I've been fighting just for informed consent. I want
Patients to be informed. I'm not, you know, I I like you
I get attacks from people because I don't say I'm eradicating vaccines from the face of the planet
I'm not a vaccine abolitionist. I'm think I'm a realist
Pharmaceutical energy is too big and there's too many people that just are, you know
Live in fear and will do whatever pharma says and they have every right to do that. I really do
Believe in freedom. This is a free country, but you can't force your thought system on me
I can't force mine on you, but you seem like one of these doctors that is trying to get to inform consent
So let me ask you a question. Can I can I get a little test response here? If a parent says to you
What is your opinion? What should I know about hepatitis b?
What is informed consent from a doctor actually sound like?
I want to I mean for everyone out there that has a doctor
I want to see if they think this is what they'd want to hear from the doctor
I mean if farm consent means having a discussion to me at least it means having a discussion and
Explaining what we know and what we don't know the risks versus the benefits of any
Procedure whether that's hepatitis b or you know heart surgery and then ultimately letting the parent make the best decision for them
It's providing them with information so that they can have it so they can look it up
I mean, I think to have so what do you seem happy?
Listen, I'm asking you
Well, you would know what I know about happy. Well, I think you need to know the the risks of hepatitis b so that
Um, I mean, I guess it depends on which age your child is let's say for a newborn
You if you are exposed to hepatitis b, then you could you could die you could
Get cancer liver cancer would be the two biggest concerns
You would need to know that the risk of getting hepatitis b as uh
Newborn is extremely low. We're talking one in a million to one in seven million if you don't have hepatitis b
Is it possible that somebody could come and bleed on your baby? Sure. It's possible
Is it possible that uh, you could bang into a needle as a newborn or have a wild baby party?
Yes, I guess it's possible, but it's very unlikely
So I think you need to understand what the risk is that you actually might be exposed to the disease versus what your
Risk is from the vaccine and when we're talking about the vaccine
Uh, if if parents want to end that discussion if they want to look at everything you can certainly get into how the trials
Run how long the safety testing was and how long was it?
The active was four to five days for the main vaccine. So I think that or five to six days
So I think that's important to know they did follow them after but it's very short term
Mostly done in adults
So we don't have long-term safety data on hepatitis b and I think that's important for parents to know as well
It doesn't mean that it's completely unsafe. We've been using it for a very long time and
You can argue whether what the safety data is again
I don't think it's been studying the way that we would know
But I think that's the part of informed consent that that gets missed
Is there's just a lot that we don't know about the long-term risks from these vaccines
Which is what was discussed in ASIP recently and I think why they changed it
Moving it back because I just don't think we really understand what the risk
Profile is to giving a newborn baby a vaccine something where the risk to them is extremely low
And and that seems to be common sense to be it's it's not just
Oh, we're just protecting its hepatitis b because if you were to ask me as a physician
Do I want a baby to get hepatitis b? Of course I don't of course nobody wants a kidding hepatitis b and die
But that's not the full story. The question is if you're giving three million kids hepatitis b vaccine
And you're you're protecting maybe one kid
Who you know the parents didn't realize they had hepatitis b or that fell through the cracks?
I mean that's tragic. You don't want that
But what is the risk to giving three million kids that vaccine and are there some deaths from that?
Are there some fevers or there's some seizures?
Are there some autoimmune conditions that they develop later in life?
What does that look like?
We've never studied that and you can't just keep giving kids vaccines on day one a week vitamin k
RSV hepatitis b antibiotic ioman all in the first two or three days
How can you look at that and say there can't be some risk from that?
Yes, there can be some benefits certainly vitamin k can help prevent a blame bleed
But when you're doing multiple things on a one day old baby
There has to be some downstream effect from that everything has good and bad and we there's no reason why we can't
Have those discussions as scientists and say we don't want anyone to get hepatitis b
We don't want to have a blame bleed, but we also don't want them to develop
Autoimmune condition. We also don't want a seizure
I appreciate that and if doctors were just speaking like that. I think we would be in enough
We would never found ourselves and I think the position we find ourselves now
When you watch what what bobby kennedy is doing. There's been all the he's not a doctor, you know, he's anti-vaccine
You know and I mean
He's also made the argument
So it was his wife on the view and others that I think there's only been two doctors in the hhs position
It tends to be lawyers, which is what he is and I think he's super well qualified in that. He's been a lawyer fighting for health
You know most of his entire career
But I want to ask you a specific question because obviously
You know, you're you're writing you're being forthcoming. You want a middle ground
You want, you know, you'd love for the aap to be open-minded. Can we do some science?
Why aren't we doing a
Vax versus unvaccinated study? Why why isn't all this happening? You want all that happening?
Is there, you know, so you need bobby to be successful at opening up this dialogue?
Is there any way that he could do this better if if you wanted like when you're watching what he's doing
I'm imagining you're hoping I need you to open up
The minds of the doctors around me those that train me the university system
Is there a way he could do this differently that wouldn't create this massive pushback by aap and Gavin Newsom and
Is there any, you know
I I don't know if there's any way I wish he could include people. I wish they could sit down and have conversations
I don't know if they're willing to do it doesn't they're ever
Off it's been offered he's offered to show up ace if he didn't yeah show up
No, I was just on the Charlie Kirk show with Aaron seary and and we offered paul off it to come to be a part of it
And he wouldn't and I mean I hope that they'll some of them will be more willing to do it
I don't think people like paulford are going to do at this point
They've not wanted to do it for so long, but there are so many other people involved
and many other doctors and
If I had a dream it would be that they would sit down in a room and talk about some of these things and do it
Openly so that they could say their position
He could say his position and they could find some sort of common ground to work from
He doesn't necessarily have the time to do that. So that that may be the problem is
Oh, I think trying to get people to I mean like if he I think he would do it
But I I think that having those discussions would take a lot more time than just making changes
So I think he's doing what he thinks is is best
but ultimately that's at the cost of including people that aren't he needs to be the
The the minions the fighters of what he actually wants to do to change the schedule
He actually need the people to change the schedule that are administering the vaccines and right now
You don't see that. So I I think
That's where it's really tough for him. I would imagine I don't know
I've never spoken to about it
But I I think that he's trying to do what he can do and he has only so much time
For right now and he wants to get as much of it done and then he knows he's going to get pushback
But the better way to do it would be to actually have discussions
Well, the real better way to do it would be to have the data to back things up
But since he doesn't have that data because it doesn't exist
He has to do things based on what he thinks is best and the data
I think he's working on the data
And so let's talk just as far as the data
If he does a Henry Ford style study, maybe millions of kids using some database, whether it's medicare or Medicaid or something
compares vaccinated to unvaccinated
What would
What would AAP
Have to see I mean would they have to be in charge of it?
I mean short of being in charge of it where they would accept the data. We're looking at
They would never accept anything that he does. I would think I don't think in the short term
They would but it still doesn't matter because you still need that as a first step
We need somebody to do it so that they could say here's what they think is wrong
And then you say okay, well here then give me your statisticians redo it
Show me where we did it wrong do it in a different way
And then hopefully other places would start to copy that and mimic and we get multiple
I don't think any one thing that secretary candy does is going to change the minds of most doctors
Nor should it necessarily but it might but they're going to hear about it. They're going to have to hear about the study
They're going to have to
Read about it look into it. Look how they did it start to focus on all right
Here's how we would do it differently
And that's the first step towards moving in a different direction because there was never even a discussion of that
In the first place so I think he needs to do it and I think it will help no matter what they find
I don't think that's going to move the needle very much
But it will move it in that in in that a little bit and then hopefully we can get some
Follow up from that. So well, I think yeah, I think it'll I think it is
I just like the Henry Ford study is moving the needle because parents and people seeing it are saying
Why can't you do a study that shows me your side's right? Right?
And I think as we get more and more studies sure AAP will continue to dig its heels in
And force covid vaccine on innocent children and lose more and more ground more and more relevance
I think states are going to start I think people start leaving states
Over some of these vaccines like it just doesn't make sense
But I do think the power is in the people which is why we do what we do the more people are saying
I'm just not listening to you anymore because it doesn't you're not in a reasonable position
There's got to be reason around this in case and I think that's what's ultimately going to change things
It's going to be the stuff that secretaries kennedy is doing but also it's the parents the parents that keep
Opting out of the system or questioning it. It's going to be the thing that's going to force
The doctors to say parents are concerned about this
Where is the research that they want? Why don't we go do it?
We're so sure the vaccines don't cause a problem. What are we worried about to go do that study?
And that that that doesn't make any sense. There's very clearly
It's either clearly been done and they don't want to show what it is or there's some
Some sort of weird logic around not doing it
Like you would think the first thing you would do to counter what secretary kennedy says would be all right
We went to harvard. We looked at the last 15 years
Here's the data and that's never been done. It's still not been done in the last, you know
Here it's insane to see
Well, no
I mean, that's what I think they would do. I know let's let it be front pages in your
And then but but you have to ask yourself since we know they've done it because it would be so obvious
They've done it and they're not getting the response they want
Why are they so gung-ho on a product that then is doing so poorly in comparative trials?
All of that we could go on and on
I want to have you stick around for off the record
I actually want to talk about how well you're trained for infectious disease childhood illnesses
Because if people stop back saying we're all going to see meals. We're all going to see chicken pox
I want to know what you know about that. Have you had to do your own research?
Are you ready for a chicken pox outbreak or a measles outbreak?
Would you know what to do? I'm going to ask you that in off the record
Where do people follow the work that you're doing?
Probably the best place would be at dr. Joel gator on instagram or x so at dr. Joel gator
at instagram or x
The book is between a shot and a hard place. You definitely
Want to pick this book up. It's also great for people that are think are on the fence. You're wanting to just move
Into starting to think reasonably obviously dr. Gator is
Bringing reason maybe not as far as you are at this moment
But I think obviously one of those great people that is giving
You know people in the republic of california and opportunity to you know change your vaccine schedule for their kids
Which I always I know that's risky. It's it's honorable
That you're doing it