WEBVTT 00:00.750 --> 00:07.790 What happens if you've had cement poured around the foundational principles of science and medicine by medical school? 00:08.290 --> 00:11.330 But slowly, but surely you start realizing it's eroding 00:11.330 --> 00:16.550 Maybe you even pull out a sledgehammer and start breaking that cement from around your own ankles 00:16.550 --> 00:22.250 When everyone else is telling you don't do it. Well, that's my next guest who is bravely 00:22.250 --> 00:28.650 Moving outside of the conventional wisdom that he was you know drenched in in medical school 00:28.650 --> 00:34.410 And has been making a journey into the deep dark abyss of 00:34.850 --> 00:42.770 Scientific curiosity of vaccine hesitancy. I don't know. We'll see what he calls it. This is Joel Gader Warsh 00:43.450 --> 00:45.210 Dr. Joel Gader Warsh 00:45.210 --> 00:47.250 Dr. Joel Gader Warsh 00:47.250 --> 00:49.070 Dr. Joel Gader Warsh 00:49.070 --> 00:53.130 He supports certified pediatrician with a master's in epidemiology 00:53.130 --> 01:00.590 For the world's leading researchers and doctors he's written books on parenting books on vaccination and he is a much needed voice of 01:00.590 --> 01:03.770 reason in today's polarized health debate 01:04.510 --> 01:04.770 Unfortunately 01:05.790 --> 01:11.350 Vaccines have been one of the most controversial topics to the point where the word it was basically censored off the internet 01:11.350 --> 01:16.710 Certainly on social media and other than if you said safe and effective you couldn't really say anything else 01:16.710 --> 01:19.050 You can't ask any questions. I don't know about you guys 01:19.050 --> 01:23.770 But I don't ever need to hear the phrase safe and effective ever again when you go through training 01:24.290 --> 01:31.710 What you are taught isn't really about safety, right? You really learn about okay here are the diseases here are the vaccines 01:32.190 --> 01:35.710 Here's the schedule. So go do it a vaccine doesn't have zero risk 01:35.710 --> 01:39.550 And so I think it's reasonable to say okay, but what are the risks from this vaccine? 01:39.710 --> 01:42.070 Does it lead to anything later? Do I have to do it now? 01:42.150 --> 01:45.130 Can I do it later? And that's a very fair question 01:45.130 --> 01:50.690 Nothing has ever shot me more in my life than when you actually go through the vaccine research when it comes to autism 01:50.690 --> 01:56.610 I was always taught the science to settle things have been debunked. You hear it so 01:57.630 --> 02:03.090 Confidently discussed. It's really frustrating as a human being and as a pediatrician to see this 02:03.090 --> 02:07.610 Division and to see people getting so angry at each other and fighting and not 02:07.610 --> 02:09.590 Discussing and not putting the kids first 02:09.590 --> 02:14.730 I don't feel like parents feel like they're being heard and they don't feel like their safety concerns are being listened to 02:14.730 --> 02:19.870 And it feels like it's about money and not about health and that needs to change facts 02:20.630 --> 02:25.290 Well, he's the author of a brand-new book between a shot in a hard place 02:25.290 --> 02:31.490 He's all over social media one of the fastest rising stars in the conversation around vaccines 02:32.230 --> 02:37.330 Hesitancy awareness, whatever you want to call it. It's my honor and pleasure to be joined right now by Dr. 02:37.410 --> 02:38.510 Joel Gator Warsh 02:39.510 --> 02:45.310 It's great having you I've been getting a kick out of watching your journey 02:45.310 --> 02:51.470 And of course we've met before and I've had you on a podcast before but not on the high wire. So 02:52.350 --> 02:53.610 For this audience 02:55.230 --> 02:56.350 You know 02:56.350 --> 03:01.650 Tell me about your sort of medical journey into this vaccine conversation 03:01.650 --> 03:05.830 So for me, I did all the regular medical training actually grew up in Canada 03:05.830 --> 03:09.470 So I guess it's appropriate and I'm on this episode since so much Canada talk 03:09.470 --> 03:18.850 But I did residency at Chilms Hospital, Los Angeles. So great Western medical program didn't really think much about vaccines at that time 03:18.850 --> 03:20.310 You know, we're trained about 03:20.950 --> 03:25.710 What the horrible diseases are how great the vaccines are here's your schedule and go do it 03:25.710 --> 03:31.830 And that's really all that I thought then but I met my now wife during residency. She's very holistic minded 03:31.830 --> 03:37.370 She opened up my eyes to a little bit of a different world started doing some training and integrative medicine and functional medicine 03:38.210 --> 03:42.210 Everything you hear about it in in medical training. So it's all woo woo and out there 03:42.210 --> 03:46.870 I went to some functional medicine courses and you're there and like, why aren't we taught this? 03:47.070 --> 03:48.830 There's nothing woo woo about nutrition 03:48.830 --> 03:54.570 Which is the biggest difference between sort of functional and you know, allopathic or western 03:54.570 --> 04:00.170 It's just the way of thinking and in allopathic medicine where you're in training everything is here are the symptoms 04:00.170 --> 04:04.910 Here's the pill. It's very pharmaceutical minded. You're not really thinking about root cause 04:04.910 --> 04:09.050 You're not really thinking about. Oh, you have a rash. Why might you have that rash? 04:09.050 --> 04:11.830 You're thinking about how do you treat that rash? What is that rash? 04:11.870 --> 04:14.870 So I think it it's just very different and as soon as you start learning that you're like 04:15.330 --> 04:19.390 There's nothing crazy about this. Why aren't we thinking this way? Why wasn't I taught this? 04:19.770 --> 04:21.890 So I just got really interested in that 04:22.510 --> 04:26.470 started practicing in that way and very quickly once you are 04:27.030 --> 04:29.750 In that world you realize parents have a lot of questions about vaccines 04:29.750 --> 04:35.110 And I realized very quickly. I knew almost nothing about vaccines and didn't have anything to come in as a doctor 04:35.110 --> 04:36.490 What year did you start your own practice? 04:37.410 --> 04:41.150 I've been in practice for a little over 10 years. So about just a little over a decade 04:41.150 --> 04:46.250 Okay, so prior to covet you're at it. Oh, yeah, well prior to covet. Yeah, I finished training around 2013 04:46.250 --> 04:49.930 Okay, um and have had my own office for about eight years 04:49.930 --> 04:50.670 okay 04:50.670 --> 04:53.930 Um, so as you're starting to see patients 04:53.930 --> 04:57.670 They start having better and better questions and I didn't have the answers to those questions 04:57.670 --> 05:01.030 So I had to start looking into it and as you look into some of these questions 05:01.030 --> 05:02.830 You start to realize that what you're taught 05:03.450 --> 05:08.550 Or what we're not taught is really everything like I didn't know the answers. And so I started looking into it 05:09.150 --> 05:11.570 The answer is very much surprised me 05:12.590 --> 05:17.150 And the more I was discussing it in the office the more I felt that I needed to look into it 05:17.150 --> 05:22.690 And certainly as I was developing an interest more in vaccines that was around the time when there was so much censorship 05:22.690 --> 05:26.670 I mean, certainly before covet and during covet. There was just so much censorship. It wasn't something 05:27.430 --> 05:29.150 I felt very comfortable talking about 05:29.810 --> 05:30.210 outside 05:30.910 --> 05:34.990 Of the office. I mean, I was even on secretary back then he was in secretary. Kennedy 05:34.990 --> 05:38.270 But I was even on his podcast and and we talked about children's health 05:38.270 --> 05:41.250 But not vaccines because back then nobody really wanted to 05:41.790 --> 05:45.670 Well, you were I mean, I'm just thinking about the timing because you're in california, right los angeles 05:46.390 --> 05:49.530 And that's the same time I'm working on the doctor's television show 05:49.530 --> 05:58.550 It's like 2013, but right around 15 16 sp277. I mean, you know california became this powder keg 05:59.390 --> 06:04.010 For this conversation. It was you know sp277 a lot. It's gonna force 06:05.190 --> 06:08.650 Vaccinate children in order to go to school. You're right there 06:08.650 --> 06:13.430 I mean just entered in and now it's just like, you know protests, you know 06:13.430 --> 06:15.970 Thousands of people wrapped around the Capitol 06:16.790 --> 06:22.930 What was that? I mean, what effect did that have on you as you're watching because it's one thing to just have questions in your office 06:22.930 --> 06:27.010 But california was like, you know on fire over this issue 06:27.010 --> 06:29.110 It made it very difficult to be a doctor because 06:30.210 --> 06:32.990 You couldn't just have these discussions. You couldn't talk about it 06:32.990 --> 06:36.210 You don't have options for your patients and the longer it went on 06:36.210 --> 06:39.450 I mean when a lot of that was starting I was just very young in my career, but 06:39.450 --> 06:43.310 As things have moved along. I mean, we've really seen all 06:43.930 --> 06:47.090 Of our options taken away like you really can't give an exemption in california anymore 06:47.090 --> 06:52.150 There's really no way to do it unless somebody has a very severe reaction basically dies 06:52.150 --> 06:54.590 And even then it's really hard to prove it 06:54.590 --> 06:54.970 So 06:55.610 --> 07:00.290 The options were taken away and again that made me very frustrated because there are patients that legitimately 07:00.290 --> 07:04.230 Should have exemptions that you feel like you should have exemptions and you shouldn't feel 07:04.230 --> 07:08.550 Like you can't give this person an exemption or you might get your medical license taken away 07:08.550 --> 07:13.070 And that is the way that it is. I mean, there's no question. You cannot give an exemption right now in california 07:14.050 --> 07:15.970 And and and I still think that's 07:16.710 --> 07:17.110 unbelievably 07:18.350 --> 07:23.810 Infuriating and I have patients that come to my office that you know, they swear by whatever the story was that happened to their young kid 07:24.430 --> 07:30.050 And it's totally reasonable that they should at least be considered to have an exemption if the parent wants to do that 07:30.050 --> 07:36.190 And you still can't do it. It goes through public health. They just shut most of them down and then you get investigated for for doing it 07:36.930 --> 07:38.710 How do we have a system that's like that? 07:39.050 --> 07:43.870 There there has to be kids that need legitimate exemptions. There have to be kids that have reactions to vaccines 07:43.870 --> 07:44.850 There's nothing 07:45.450 --> 07:48.670 Controversial about that you can debate what's related to vaccines 07:48.670 --> 07:52.190 But you certainly can't debate that kids could have a seizure could have a 07:52.850 --> 07:58.570 Myocarditis could have issues and nobody wants to ever admit that flax is an allergic reaction 07:58.570 --> 07:59.810 I mean just simple 07:59.810 --> 08:02.990 There's no product. There's no food on this earth everyone can eat 08:02.990 --> 08:06.370 Yeah, I had a kid a family that came to the office and 08:07.310 --> 08:08.130 their baby 08:08.130 --> 08:12.630 It was around two months got vaccines that same day had a super heart fast rate 08:13.350 --> 08:15.210 Over 200 went to the hospital 08:16.070 --> 08:18.950 They weren't sure what was going on everything calmed down 08:18.950 --> 08:24.730 Luckily and and the parents were worried. Oh, was this a vaccine reaction? Everybody convinced them that it wasn't a vaccine reaction 08:24.730 --> 08:25.690 Even though it was on the same day 08:25.690 --> 08:28.950 So they again at four months went back to the doctor 08:29.650 --> 08:32.410 Still hesitant, but doctor convinced them to do the vaccines again 08:32.990 --> 08:35.410 They did same exact reaction happened 08:35.950 --> 08:38.850 And kid had super fast heart rate went to the hospital 08:38.850 --> 08:44.590 They were there for a day everything calmed down after that and still nobody was willing to say that that was because of the vaccines 08:45.110 --> 08:49.590 And at six months they went back to the pediatricians office and the pediatricians was going to kick them out 08:49.590 --> 08:50.790 If they didn't do their vaccines again 08:50.790 --> 08:55.330 And and the parents were like look we're not anti-vaccine or older kids fully vaccinated 08:55.330 --> 08:59.970 But this kid's clearly having a reaction. Can we not at least wait till we're older? 09:00.410 --> 09:04.690 Yeah, still they were they were kicked out. So I met them, you know later on in their journey 09:04.690 --> 09:09.690 But it's like how can you not sit back and see something like that and say there is something 09:10.290 --> 09:12.530 Very wrong with our system where if a patient 09:13.230 --> 09:16.590 Says that that the doctor's going to dismiss that if they come to my office 09:16.590 --> 09:20.130 I still probably can't give an exemption for that because you need documentation 09:20.130 --> 09:22.510 You need proof you need to show that it came from the vaccine 09:22.510 --> 09:26.050 You can't prove a hundred percent that happened after the vaccines, but come on 09:26.590 --> 09:28.230 You have that story, right? 09:28.630 --> 09:32.470 What else are you thinking it and even if it's not because of the vaccine shouldn't that be the person 09:33.290 --> 09:34.090 Who qualifies? 09:35.270 --> 09:39.710 Under the you know the benefit of the doubt to say look, maybe this is not the kid that we need to 09:39.710 --> 09:44.690 Association close enough everyone else's vaccine. What harm are they? 09:44.870 --> 09:49.170 You know what I mean? Is this gonna is this one child gonna kill our you know hurt or 09:49.650 --> 09:55.310 And everything's about risks versus benefits right and in that scenario you have to look at that kid and say 09:55.310 --> 09:59.130 This kid's probably at very high risk to have another severe reaction 09:59.130 --> 10:01.610 Maybe they're gonna have a heart attack and the heart's gonna stop at this time 10:01.610 --> 10:04.010 Should the parents not have the option to say? 10:04.630 --> 10:06.590 Well, I understand that my kid could get whooping cough 10:06.590 --> 10:12.310 But I I think the risk is much higher than my kid's gonna have a heart reaction like they did the last two times 10:12.310 --> 10:12.470 I'm saying 10:13.330 --> 10:17.530 Yeah, that's basic medicine and that's not anti-vaccine or anything out there 10:17.530 --> 10:22.310 That's scaring parents into doing something that might cause their kid harm. That's way too far 10:22.310 --> 10:24.690 We have to come back to some sanity 10:24.690 --> 10:30.030 Which you are now I would say one of the leading voices trying to 10:30.730 --> 10:34.270 Navigate a middle ground a middle sensible ground 10:34.270 --> 10:37.870 Here's your book between a shot in a hard place 10:38.430 --> 10:43.170 Tackling difficult vaccine questions with balanced data and clarity. I've been watching your posts 10:43.690 --> 10:49.210 On social media around some of these decisions coming out of the cdc hepatitis b 10:49.750 --> 10:53.390 You know and then you've got the american academy of pediatrics, which is 10:53.390 --> 10:59.770 You know your you know organization if you will you are a pediatrician saying don't listen to cdc 11:00.350 --> 11:01.770 That's not science 11:02.430 --> 11:06.010 Um, which has got to make it difficult. I mean I you know 11:06.010 --> 11:11.350 And I'm I'll be honest with you. I'm in a place where I have no forgiveness for doctors any longer 11:11.350 --> 11:16.730 There's just too much information out there. If you're not questioning it you you don't have a brain 11:16.730 --> 11:21.270 I'm sorry. If you're not like saying I just cannot just go along with a blanket 11:21.270 --> 11:24.630 It's safe and effective any longer. We're way past that point 11:24.630 --> 11:28.670 But let's talk about the american academy of pediatrics for a second 11:30.350 --> 11:33.570 There I think they're giving pediatrics a horrible 11:34.210 --> 11:41.490 Name at the moment what they're saying is there's no science to what is happening at aghs removal of the hepatitis b vaccine 11:41.490 --> 11:46.750 Covid vaccine shared decision-making. You know, this isn't something that's going to be mandated on kids 11:47.330 --> 11:47.710 um 11:48.450 --> 11:50.290 How do they say that that's not scientific? 11:50.930 --> 11:56.390 I'm very very frustrated with what's going on. I think everybody should be there's no logic 11:56.390 --> 12:02.330 To this back and forth that's going on the lawsuits. Nobody's sitting down having discussions. That's not going to help anybody 12:02.970 --> 12:09.030 We're not seeing any real dialogue. It's just anger lawsuits. Oh, you're going to say this 12:09.030 --> 12:13.250 We're going to do the opposite and and that leaves all of the parents confused 12:13.250 --> 12:15.150 It doesn't move anything 12:15.830 --> 12:20.350 Onto the next step and it doesn't even let us know what to do as a pediatrician like I 12:20.350 --> 12:22.290 I it's so confusing right now 12:22.290 --> 12:25.910 I think it's the most confusing time ever and I said that many times. I don't know what parents 12:26.350 --> 12:29.450 Are thinking right now. I don't know how they can make a decision. It's so 12:29.890 --> 12:32.050 All over the place with what they're hearing 12:32.330 --> 12:33.850 and that that makes it 12:34.650 --> 12:37.790 Very tough to be a parent right now, especially with a young kid 12:38.310 --> 12:43.050 You're hearing all sorts of different things and and so what do you what do you do with that? I don't know. So I think 12:43.870 --> 12:45.790 the American Academy of Patrick's is 12:46.390 --> 12:51.490 Trying to take a stand against what's going on, but at the same time they're really making themselves 12:52.470 --> 12:56.190 Look bad. I think I think really putting doctors in a place where 12:57.030 --> 12:59.830 It's very adversarial people don't like doctors anymore 12:59.830 --> 13:05.650 They used to be you can look at the statistics that there's in different studies that are quoted, but the recent one, you know 70 to 40 percent 13:06.650 --> 13:07.970 popularity before and after 13:07.970 --> 13:10.250 Covid I think with everything that happened 13:11.090 --> 13:11.850 public health 13:12.470 --> 13:19.510 Is destroyed in terms of any sort of trust any trust in doctors is destroyed and I'm seeing that 13:19.970 --> 13:24.870 More and more even just in the facebook chat groups where I'm lurking in the background where people talk about things 13:24.870 --> 13:28.690 And you're seeing all sorts of doctors not know what to do patients are 13:29.830 --> 13:33.110 Coming in at a rate of not wanting to do vaccines. That's so high 13:33.670 --> 13:36.690 That they're worried that they're not going to have enough patients 13:36.690 --> 13:39.490 I mean I've seen that in multiple groups of doctors saying well, we 13:40.130 --> 13:47.410 Should we change up our policies because there's so many practices that don't take don't take patients unless they fully vaccinate on the schedule 13:47.950 --> 13:51.690 And and there are so many people coming in that no longer want to do that 13:52.310 --> 13:56.250 That it's creating discussion amongst the doctors about whether they're 13:56.250 --> 13:59.590 Going to change it or they feel like they need to change it whether they could 14:00.170 --> 14:04.210 Maybe prioritize some of the vaccines and and and those are the ones so it actually 14:04.810 --> 14:09.430 Things are changing because people are changing it and and I'm really shocked to see it, but 14:10.110 --> 14:15.870 It actually in the real world parents are more skeptical than they ever have been and that's pushing back 14:15.870 --> 14:18.070 on doctors to have to think about this 14:18.790 --> 14:22.590 And I don't think that the lawsuits and what the american academy is doing 14:23.510 --> 14:24.910 ultimately is going to serve 14:25.450 --> 14:26.870 Things in the best way 14:27.430 --> 14:30.290 We saw what happened when we mandate things nobody wanted to do it 14:30.970 --> 14:31.450 and 14:32.330 --> 14:37.550 Very few people were doing cova shots in the last year and I think the same thing is going to happen the harder 14:38.090 --> 14:42.550 The american academy pushes and the harder doctor pushes to force vaccines 14:43.030 --> 14:47.290 The fewer people are going to do it. That's not the solution. That's not the direction forward 14:47.290 --> 14:49.070 The direction forward needs to be 14:49.590 --> 14:53.910 Here's the information. Here's the benefits that we see. Let's discuss the risks 14:53.910 --> 14:57.590 Let's figure out what those risks are and let's try to find some middle ground 14:58.150 --> 15:02.050 Of where that should be based on the science and data as opposed to shoving it down people's roads 15:02.050 --> 15:07.450 Which seems to be where we're at. It seems like they're digging their heels in and pushing back as opposed to 15:08.050 --> 15:11.770 Being like, okay. Well, here's what secretary kendi saying. Here's what we agree with. Here's what we don't agree with 15:11.770 --> 15:12.970 Let's discuss that 15:13.430 --> 15:14.410 I have got like 15:14.410 --> 15:20.730 I rarely in an interview have like 20 questions that i'm excited about like how am I going to remember all of that 15:20.730 --> 15:24.130 Because I want to get through them because you brought up some things 15:24.130 --> 15:28.250 I have not thought about but first of all my first question would be 15:28.810 --> 15:34.610 This moment is very specific. Um american academy pediatrics this this pushback as you're saying 15:34.610 --> 15:38.410 This is the hardest time that you can imagine ever having been a doctor 15:38.410 --> 15:42.630 It's also one of the hardest times having been a parent you've been posting a lot about that 15:42.630 --> 15:47.270 You're talking about these conversations in your and you're saying these numbers are climbing 15:47.710 --> 15:49.110 So would you say? 15:49.490 --> 15:56.470 You know anecdotally from your experience that this this push by american academy pediatrics to defy 15:56.930 --> 15:58.470 new cdc guidelines 15:59.010 --> 16:00.490 Which I think seemed very sensible 16:00.490 --> 16:05.450 Let's join denmark and other nations that are just having they're not having outbreaks of polio 16:05.450 --> 16:11.050 They're not having outbreaks of smallpox the big fear signals, you know, it seems to be perfectly fine in other nations 16:11.050 --> 16:14.570 Why don't we just reduce down to that? There is science behind that 16:14.570 --> 16:17.430 They talk the scientists that are seeing success there 16:17.430 --> 16:24.390 But would you see would you say that this push by american academy pediatrics and gavin new some state of california? 16:24.650 --> 16:30.710 I think other states, you know that are hawaii's looking to join this defiance group 16:31.510 --> 16:32.450 Is that 16:33.230 --> 16:39.150 In have you met anyone any, um, you know parents coming into your practice that that is 16:40.030 --> 16:42.210 incentivizing them to take more vaccines 16:43.010 --> 16:48.950 I don't think it's incentivizing people to take more vaccines. I think it's making people question everything because once 16:49.610 --> 16:53.590 They saw what happened during covet and saw the public health messaging now. They're concerned about everything 16:53.590 --> 16:56.870 I wouldn't put this all in the american academy pediatrics. There are many other organizations 16:56.870 --> 17:01.690 I think it's just public health and mainstream medicine in general. I think american academy is part of it 17:02.170 --> 17:03.610 These states are saying 17:04.130 --> 17:08.870 We're going to use america. We're not we're no longer going to make our vaccine program based on the cdc 17:08.870 --> 17:11.950 We're going to make it back based on the american academy pediatrics 17:11.950 --> 17:16.390 That's that puts it in a different position than every other agency or or 17:16.390 --> 17:19.170 You know non-profit or whatever out there 17:19.170 --> 17:21.850 They do get a lot of funding from the pharmaceutical industry 17:21.850 --> 17:27.450 But they're putting they're being put in a position whether and they must be asking for it use us as your reference 17:27.450 --> 17:32.410 So I think they they carry a lot of weight and they they need to be we need to talk about that 17:32.410 --> 17:35.990 But you also brought up something I find interesting which is 17:35.990 --> 17:38.730 As a doctor, I hadn't even thought about this 17:39.170 --> 17:39.670 You know 17:39.670 --> 17:46.290 If you're a doctor that gives vaccines to those that want it and those that you know, don't you give them 17:46.290 --> 17:48.230 You have a balance inside of your practice 17:48.230 --> 17:54.110 We know most of the funding that comes into the pediatric practices through the sale of vaccines 17:54.730 --> 17:58.430 You know guys like you are being put in an 17:59.290 --> 18:00.650 unnaturally, you know 18:01.730 --> 18:02.330 underpaid 18:02.970 --> 18:08.190 Salary position because all the other pediatricians are saying I'm not I'm going to take you 18:08.190 --> 18:11.770 So I'm assuming you're in this group you bob sears others 18:11.770 --> 18:18.670 Where you have a line out the door of people that are coming to you to not pay for vaccines 18:18.670 --> 18:20.730 How do you make a living? Yeah, well 18:21.410 --> 18:25.410 So first of all we have a hybrid practice. So we have the membership model. Okay 18:26.130 --> 18:26.710 We also 18:27.490 --> 18:29.390 You definitely do make some money from vaccines 18:29.390 --> 18:33.130 I don't think you make as much as people think that you do because you're making money off of visits too 18:33.130 --> 18:38.770 So you are seeing patients and you get paid for the visit along with vaccines if you're you're giving vaccines 18:38.770 --> 18:41.850 Generally, there's you know, you can make a little bit of money off of each vaccine 18:41.850 --> 18:43.510 I think when it comes to vaccine 18:44.210 --> 18:45.930 When people are talking about it, it's in the aggregate 18:45.930 --> 18:49.890 So if you're doing a lot of vaccines, you're making a few dollars that can certainly add up over time 18:49.890 --> 18:54.910 Especially in a big system a few dollars can really add up for that system for vaccines, but 18:56.130 --> 18:58.750 For me, it doesn't really affect me all that much 18:58.750 --> 19:01.710 I think if you were in a like a Medicaid, Medi-Cal type of clinic 19:01.710 --> 19:05.790 It might affect you a little bit more because those margins are so small but ultimately 19:06.450 --> 19:12.970 You have to do what what seems right and and there should be no reason that you can't see patients and have a financially stable practice 19:12.970 --> 19:17.130 By just seeing patients and letting them do whatever they feel like is best for their family 19:17.130 --> 19:21.430 So you're using more of a membership concierge model, which we're hearing 19:21.430 --> 19:24.470 But I can do that just like you said because we have a line about the door, right? 19:24.470 --> 19:28.230 I mean, I can't take 99% of the patients that come that want to come to us right 19:28.230 --> 19:31.750 But you know the other issue, you know to bring up 19:32.410 --> 19:37.670 Because I mean I don't want to make an example like this is the difficulty, but it becomes elitist. Does it not? 19:37.930 --> 19:41.730 I mean a little bit that those of us that can afford to 19:42.350 --> 19:44.250 You know, I have a membership pay up front 19:44.250 --> 19:48.950 My insurance covers it great. If not, you know fine. That's what that whole system is 19:48.950 --> 19:53.390 You know, I'm in you know, I have a practitioner I go to but I just think 19:53.390 --> 20:01.350 What about all those people that are struggling to make ends meet probably using their last dollars if they're watching the high wire to buy organic? 20:02.190 --> 20:05.590 You know, uh, which is I think incredibly important 20:05.590 --> 20:11.890 But then they're outside of this, you know system. How are we going? What would be your recommendation? 20:12.710 --> 20:18.030 To getting around how do we get to a place where we're all getting equal care? 20:18.930 --> 20:20.790 Well, I think there are a few different ways 20:20.790 --> 20:24.430 I think we would have to change the rules around kicking people out and discriminating 20:24.430 --> 20:27.350 That would be one way to make sure that all practices are taking patients 20:27.350 --> 20:32.150 But ultimately the real way to get there is to get the research that we actually need to convince the doctors 20:32.970 --> 20:38.470 Of the science behind vaccines and we can go from there. I mean, I still think we don't have the research 20:38.470 --> 20:42.850 I think that the Henry Ford study what you brought out is probably the best that we have 20:42.850 --> 20:48.350 And even that is still not perfect. I mean, we need prospective studies, but we need 20 studies like the one that you showed 20:48.350 --> 20:49.450 We need the 20:50.310 --> 20:52.150 We need the Henry Ford research to be 20:52.690 --> 20:54.210 Reassessed we need to be peer reviewed 20:54.210 --> 20:59.890 We need the same thing at Harvard and Kaiser and in Denmark and wherever and let's let's see if what 21:00.510 --> 21:01.390 They found 21:01.910 --> 21:05.430 Is correct if you start seeing that trend with good data 21:05.430 --> 21:08.770 That would start to open up people's minds a little bit in the medical world 21:08.770 --> 21:10.670 They wouldn't be able to dismiss that totally 21:10.670 --> 21:14.950 But we haven't even been able to get that research re-reviewed. It's just oh, you know 21:15.490 --> 21:20.750 Henry Henry Ford says it says it says it's no good. It's like you have on camera the doctor saying 21:20.750 --> 21:22.150 He didn't want to get it published 21:22.150 --> 21:28.050 And you you could look at any of the research out there and that study is certainly as good as most of if not better than 21:28.050 --> 21:31.950 The vast majority of vaccine research that we have there's no question about that 21:31.950 --> 21:36.730 You can poke holes in that study. You can poke holes in any retrospective study. That's why they're not great 21:36.730 --> 21:37.930 They're as good as you have 21:38.570 --> 21:38.850 but 21:39.390 --> 21:41.890 The fact that we don't have 50 of those studies 21:42.470 --> 21:46.350 When we're giving more and more vaccines, you know 30 plus vaccines to kids 21:46.350 --> 21:48.830 it's insane that we wouldn't have that and 21:48.830 --> 21:50.970 I think if we did that research 21:51.510 --> 21:53.530 if we did 50 studies if we 21:54.270 --> 21:57.250 Did prospective studies and everything was the same in the vaccinated breast 21:57.250 --> 22:00.870 Unvaccinated group everybody's tune would change including yours including secretary candies 22:00.870 --> 22:05.130 Nobody's here saying that you couldn't ever have a vaccine that's useful 22:05.130 --> 22:09.570 Or you're always going to have these huge risk with vaccines. The question is what is that risk? 22:09.990 --> 22:13.610 And we don't have any idea what that is and as we add more and more vaccines 22:13.610 --> 22:17.890 You can't just assume that they're never going to cause a problem. That's insane 22:17.890 --> 22:22.350 And that's what you see when you talk to these doctors. They just assume that more is better 22:22.890 --> 22:24.370 Always every vaccine is good 22:24.870 --> 22:30.150 And and they never go backwards and like you were discussing with the kovat vaccine. There's no ability 22:30.970 --> 22:35.010 To look back in the past and say well, you know, here's what we thought then 22:35.450 --> 22:40.670 Here's what's going on now. We have a disease that doesn't seem as concerning as it used to be 22:40.670 --> 22:43.370 So well, let's at least just say we could 22:43.990 --> 22:44.830 recommend it 22:45.370 --> 22:49.990 But we're not going to require anybody to do it ever again because it clearly the risks are not what they used to be 22:49.990 --> 22:54.990 And or clearly the benefits are not where they used to be and and we're just still not sure what the risks are 22:54.990 --> 22:59.290 We can't possibly be I think they're I think aap is committing suicide 22:59.290 --> 23:04.370 I think Gavin Newsom's committing political suicide on that one vaccine especially there's two 23:04.370 --> 23:07.610 You've talked a lot about all the vaccines on all of them definitely 23:07.610 --> 23:13.190 But everybody knows the kovat vaccines a disaster. Everyone knows it doesn't stop transmission 23:13.710 --> 23:20.010 Everyone is starting to question if you know, if I'm getting sick three times after and or friends that have seven shots 23:20.010 --> 23:23.870 And it's doing nothing to protect them and more and more studies showing 23:23.870 --> 23:28.730 You know myocarditis pericarditis if the these amyloid plaques and prions 23:28.730 --> 23:32.710 I mean god knows what future we have in this species 23:32.710 --> 23:37.410 But forget about all of the doctors that have are just, you know 23:38.170 --> 23:39.890 You know a part of a religious 23:40.490 --> 23:42.590 Cult or whatever you want to call it, you know 23:43.350 --> 23:49.170 Hypnotized by their education. You are not and and I appreciate not any more 23:49.640 --> 23:52.770 But I I question based on what you just said 23:52.770 --> 23:58.350 I know you're trying to find this middle ground. You're saying parents are confused. What is you know, where's the you know 23:58.350 --> 24:00.230 And I've watched podcasts. You're in 24:01.110 --> 24:06.250 Gary Brekker just recently said, you know one side is saying you take the vaccines 24:06.250 --> 24:09.990 You're gonna die the other side is saying if you don't take the vaccines, you're gonna die 24:09.990 --> 24:14.130 There's a middle ground, you know, we know there has to be middle ground. Do we know 24:14.690 --> 24:18.870 Do we know there's a middle ground like how I know this is your pursuit 24:19.730 --> 24:22.270 And based on what you just said, which you're right 24:22.910 --> 24:23.510 there's 24:25.170 --> 24:30.270 Frankly almost no science on the safety of vaccines. There's certainly no 24:30.870 --> 24:32.050 Dependable science 24:33.130 --> 24:39.370 Properly done science. There's definitely no placebo based before we even go out, you know 24:39.370 --> 24:45.930 Prospective study that was done correctly prior to lessencing these products and then everything's retrospective after that 24:45.930 --> 24:49.050 And that's you know vulnerable to bias 24:49.830 --> 24:56.470 You know it. I know as you're looking deeper into it. So how when you say I'm trying to find the middle ground 24:57.050 --> 25:01.910 How do you go from the middle ground? Which is clear vaccine injury has to be possible 25:02.470 --> 25:05.130 COVID vaccine injury now documented 25:05.130 --> 25:07.810 You know, then you have people complaining 25:08.410 --> 25:13.950 And then you have the sickest children which you talk a lot about auto immune disease running rampant 25:13.950 --> 25:18.050 Seems pretty obvious if your immune system's out of whack, maybe we should look at the product 25:18.540 --> 25:22.830 That is, you know inciting your immune system. But then on the other side 25:23.530 --> 25:31.750 No, you know on the pro vaccine side, frankly nothing but bold loud statements and no science 25:32.270 --> 25:33.530 backing up at safety 25:34.190 --> 25:37.430 So where how do you pursue middle? 25:38.090 --> 25:41.870 Let me start here because you mentioned this and I think it's so interesting in the same week 25:42.410 --> 25:47.210 I could get an email from a very pro vaccine person saying that I'm killing kids 25:47.210 --> 25:52.650 Because I'm talking about any sort of risks around kids and that and that very thing we could get 25:52.650 --> 25:57.050 An email from somebody who's very anti-vaccine saying I'm killing kids because I'm talking about 25:57.650 --> 26:00.050 How vaccines might have some benefit and so 26:00.570 --> 26:02.450 There are two very loud extremes 26:03.150 --> 26:07.470 I think most people are in the middle and the reality now that I've been in this for a while 26:07.470 --> 26:12.510 A lot of people are actually much more in the middle and a lot of doctors are starting to hear this. I think 26:13.350 --> 26:19.190 The best thing that's happened so far with Secretary Kennedy no matter what you believe about him is he's brought this out 26:20.270 --> 26:24.310 And and it's a conversation. You can't you can't go back. It's a public conversation 26:24.310 --> 26:26.490 You can't say we're not moving towards the middle now 26:27.070 --> 26:29.470 It's way over here and it's you know moved here, but 26:30.230 --> 26:35.350 You can't say that we're not moving more to the middle with discussions around hepatitis b with changes to the CDC schedule 26:36.010 --> 26:40.410 With discussions around autism. I mean these things were never even talked about before 26:41.090 --> 26:45.550 Most doctors were never even aware of it. They are now they're aware of it 26:45.550 --> 26:52.210 People are going into the office and not wanting to get vaccines. Doctors are questioning what they should or shouldn't do 26:52.210 --> 26:54.890 They're looking into it. They're talking about it. So we are 26:55.510 --> 26:58.270 Very slowly moving in that direction and I hope 26:59.070 --> 27:03.570 That as we continue to move forward that's going to push the research that's actually needed to move the doctors 27:03.570 --> 27:04.850 because right now 27:05.490 --> 27:09.230 I think the unfortunate part is whatever Secretary Kennedy is doing 27:09.910 --> 27:13.850 Is very open to being all just replaced in a few years if he's not there 27:14.370 --> 27:18.270 And that's not going to move things forward changing the CDC schedule is doing nothing, right? 27:18.330 --> 27:22.590 I think it's it's really great in terms of discussing because I think it's opening up that discussion 27:23.290 --> 27:25.810 But ultimately if he says okay, we're doing the CDC schedule 27:25.810 --> 27:28.150 It's going to be this way and all the doctors say no no 27:28.150 --> 27:30.290 We're just going to do the aap schedule, which is what was before 27:30.770 --> 27:34.250 If he's not there in three years, they're just going to say we're just putting it back, right? 27:34.390 --> 27:36.150 That's what would happen. So I think 27:36.690 --> 27:41.090 But what would happen to all the doctors like you and I think they are increasing there's more and more 27:41.550 --> 27:45.350 Doctors are quietly starting to say hey, look, I just met with one in Canada 27:45.350 --> 27:51.310 I just had just watched an inconvenient study and he said I am literally saying to my patients right now 27:51.310 --> 27:52.110 I've got four 27:53.430 --> 27:58.070 pregnant moms that are wanting to know what my opinion is on vaccines and he said I 27:58.890 --> 28:02.910 Am officially taking a hiatus from the conversation. I don't even know what to tell you 28:02.910 --> 28:05.990 I'm starting my own research. She said based on your film 28:06.650 --> 28:09.130 I've got a refrigerator full of vaccines 28:09.670 --> 28:13.230 Brought up meningitis as a concerns like but I don't know what the safety of that you're right 28:13.230 --> 28:18.790 I mean, I am worried about meningitis, but I don't know how much harm that single vaccine can cause 28:18.790 --> 28:22.190 I don't know where to find that information. Who's brand new 28:22.790 --> 28:23.570 to this 28:24.050 --> 28:28.590 But very insightful very thoughtful and it's just a fascinating conversation 28:29.630 --> 28:35.250 I don't know that this just swings back now. They'll use authority to swing it back, but you're not gonna you can go 28:35.250 --> 28:41.190 Hold on a second. I mean, would you change with your patients if suddenly cdc is back under, you know 28:41.810 --> 28:45.590 So I think the schedule could change back. I don't think you can put back the conversation 28:45.590 --> 28:48.330 I think that has changed for good now 28:48.330 --> 28:53.150 I don't think you can go backwards to the point where people don't understand the vaccines can cause a problem 28:53.570 --> 28:58.270 I think the real question is can we get to the point where the science 28:58.270 --> 29:04.430 Could catch up to the point where people are actually willing to do their studies and then willing to look at those studies honestly and say 29:05.130 --> 29:09.450 Okay, well, here's where the risks are with vaccines. Let's make better vaccines. Let's 29:09.450 --> 29:16.250 Use fewer vaccines. Let's let's figure out where that balance is for kids health or let's just at least not require them 29:16.250 --> 29:19.110 I mean, it's a very easy place to start. Let's not force anybody to do anything 29:19.110 --> 29:23.310 That should be, you know, the the bar the low bar certainly in a free 29:24.050 --> 29:27.970 Country there and we don't most places in America don't require them for school 29:27.970 --> 29:33.310 Right, those states are doing just fine. Most countries don't require vaccines to go to school. They're doing just fine 29:33.310 --> 29:37.110 Well, I do I would say let me correct that for anyone watching this brand new today 29:37.790 --> 29:39.390 Every state requires them 29:40.150 --> 29:44.350 They have exemptions. They have exemptions, but they're not very forthcoming about it 29:44.350 --> 29:47.270 And if you just showed up, you won't know they won't tell you by the way 29:47.270 --> 29:50.510 You can just opt out you have to go out of your way to find that information 29:50.510 --> 29:53.430 But you're right. There's only five states currently 29:54.090 --> 29:59.490 That just have no exemption whatsoever. So it's a little different than not having it mandated. You have to sort of go out of your way 30:00.030 --> 30:04.730 I'm curious because in our our nonprofits called informed consent action network 30:04.730 --> 30:07.910 I've been fighting just for informed consent. I want 30:08.410 --> 30:12.050 Patients to be informed. I'm not, you know, I I like you 30:12.050 --> 30:17.230 I get attacks from people because I don't say I'm eradicating vaccines from the face of the planet 30:17.230 --> 30:21.110 I'm not a vaccine abolitionist. I'm think I'm a realist 30:21.110 --> 30:24.990 Pharmaceutical energy is too big and there's too many people that just are, you know 30:24.990 --> 30:30.390 Live in fear and will do whatever pharma says and they have every right to do that. I really do 30:31.030 --> 30:36.190 Believe in freedom. This is a free country, but you can't force your thought system on me 30:36.190 --> 30:42.730 I can't force mine on you, but you seem like one of these doctors that is trying to get to inform consent 30:42.730 --> 30:48.690 So let me ask you a question. Can I can I get a little test response here? If a parent says to you 30:49.390 --> 30:52.370 What is your opinion? What should I know about hepatitis b? 30:52.870 --> 30:55.770 What is informed consent from a doctor actually sound like? 30:55.930 --> 30:57.810 I want to I mean for everyone out there that has a doctor 30:57.810 --> 31:01.390 I want to see if they think this is what they'd want to hear from the doctor 31:01.390 --> 31:06.890 I mean if farm consent means having a discussion to me at least it means having a discussion and 31:08.150 --> 31:11.550 Explaining what we know and what we don't know the risks versus the benefits of any 31:12.110 --> 31:18.170 Procedure whether that's hepatitis b or you know heart surgery and then ultimately letting the parent make the best decision for them 31:18.770 --> 31:22.090 It's providing them with information so that they can have it so they can look it up 31:22.090 --> 31:23.950 I mean, I think to have so what do you seem happy? 31:24.370 --> 31:26.670 Listen, I'm asking you 31:26.670 --> 31:31.570 Well, you would know what I know about happy. Well, I think you need to know the the risks of hepatitis b so that 31:32.190 --> 31:35.230 Um, I mean, I guess it depends on which age your child is let's say for a newborn 31:36.670 --> 31:41.450 You if you are exposed to hepatitis b, then you could you could die you could 31:41.450 --> 31:44.330 Get cancer liver cancer would be the two biggest concerns 31:44.330 --> 31:48.770 You would need to know that the risk of getting hepatitis b as uh 31:48.770 --> 31:53.630 Newborn is extremely low. We're talking one in a million to one in seven million if you don't have hepatitis b 31:53.630 --> 31:57.290 Is it possible that somebody could come and bleed on your baby? Sure. It's possible 31:57.290 --> 32:01.690 Is it possible that uh, you could bang into a needle as a newborn or have a wild baby party? 32:01.970 --> 32:03.810 Yes, I guess it's possible, but it's very unlikely 32:03.810 --> 32:08.910 So I think you need to understand what the risk is that you actually might be exposed to the disease versus what your 32:08.910 --> 32:12.310 Risk is from the vaccine and when we're talking about the vaccine 32:12.910 --> 32:17.730 Uh, if if parents want to end that discussion if they want to look at everything you can certainly get into how the trials 32:18.150 --> 32:21.090 Run how long the safety testing was and how long was it? 32:21.090 --> 32:25.250 The active was four to five days for the main vaccine. So I think that or five to six days 32:25.250 --> 32:29.810 So I think that's important to know they did follow them after but it's very short term 32:30.330 --> 32:31.410 Mostly done in adults 32:31.410 --> 32:35.990 So we don't have long-term safety data on hepatitis b and I think that's important for parents to know as well 32:35.990 --> 32:39.670 It doesn't mean that it's completely unsafe. We've been using it for a very long time and 32:39.670 --> 32:43.030 You can argue whether what the safety data is again 32:43.030 --> 32:44.990 I don't think it's been studying the way that we would know 32:45.490 --> 32:48.510 But I think that's the part of informed consent that that gets missed 32:48.510 --> 32:51.710 Is there's just a lot that we don't know about the long-term risks from these vaccines 32:51.710 --> 32:55.530 Which is what was discussed in ASIP recently and I think why they changed it 32:56.470 --> 32:59.890 Moving it back because I just don't think we really understand what the risk 33:00.410 --> 33:05.610 Profile is to giving a newborn baby a vaccine something where the risk to them is extremely low 33:05.610 --> 33:09.430 And and that seems to be common sense to be it's it's not just 33:09.430 --> 33:12.930 Oh, we're just protecting its hepatitis b because if you were to ask me as a physician 33:12.930 --> 33:17.990 Do I want a baby to get hepatitis b? Of course I don't of course nobody wants a kidding hepatitis b and die 33:17.990 --> 33:22.970 But that's not the full story. The question is if you're giving three million kids hepatitis b vaccine 33:22.970 --> 33:26.470 And you're you're protecting maybe one kid 33:27.610 --> 33:31.690 Who you know the parents didn't realize they had hepatitis b or that fell through the cracks? 33:31.810 --> 33:33.670 I mean that's tragic. You don't want that 33:33.670 --> 33:38.370 But what is the risk to giving three million kids that vaccine and are there some deaths from that? 33:38.550 --> 33:40.530 Are there some fevers or there's some seizures? 33:40.870 --> 33:43.370 Are there some autoimmune conditions that they develop later in life? 33:43.370 --> 33:45.010 What does that look like? 33:45.330 --> 33:50.690 We've never studied that and you can't just keep giving kids vaccines on day one a week vitamin k 33:51.810 --> 33:55.430 RSV hepatitis b antibiotic ioman all in the first two or three days 33:56.170 --> 33:59.210 How can you look at that and say there can't be some risk from that? 33:59.250 --> 34:02.370 Yes, there can be some benefits certainly vitamin k can help prevent a blame bleed 34:02.930 --> 34:05.970 But when you're doing multiple things on a one day old baby 34:06.650 --> 34:13.210 There has to be some downstream effect from that everything has good and bad and we there's no reason why we can't 34:13.210 --> 34:17.030 Have those discussions as scientists and say we don't want anyone to get hepatitis b 34:17.030 --> 34:20.430 We don't want to have a blame bleed, but we also don't want them to develop 34:21.030 --> 34:22.830 Autoimmune condition. We also don't want a seizure 34:23.770 --> 34:29.430 I appreciate that and if doctors were just speaking like that. I think we would be in enough 34:29.950 --> 34:33.630 We would never found ourselves and I think the position we find ourselves now 34:34.150 --> 34:41.830 When you watch what what bobby kennedy is doing. There's been all the he's not a doctor, you know, he's anti-vaccine 34:42.550 --> 34:44.190 You know and I mean 34:44.690 --> 34:45.870 He's also made the argument 34:45.870 --> 34:51.070 So it was his wife on the view and others that I think there's only been two doctors in the hhs position 34:51.070 --> 34:57.410 It tends to be lawyers, which is what he is and I think he's super well qualified in that. He's been a lawyer fighting for health 34:58.170 --> 35:00.330 You know most of his entire career 35:00.330 --> 35:03.570 But I want to ask you a specific question because obviously 35:04.120 --> 35:08.030 You know, you're you're writing you're being forthcoming. You want a middle ground 35:08.030 --> 35:12.930 You want, you know, you'd love for the aap to be open-minded. Can we do some science? 35:13.090 --> 35:13.870 Why aren't we doing a 35:13.870 --> 35:18.490 Vax versus unvaccinated study? Why why isn't all this happening? You want all that happening? 35:18.990 --> 35:24.470 Is there, you know, so you need bobby to be successful at opening up this dialogue? 35:25.050 --> 35:31.870 Is there any way that he could do this better if if you wanted like when you're watching what he's doing 35:31.870 --> 35:34.330 I'm imagining you're hoping I need you to open up 35:34.330 --> 35:38.950 The minds of the doctors around me those that train me the university system 35:39.470 --> 35:47.090 Is there a way he could do this differently that wouldn't create this massive pushback by aap and Gavin Newsom and 35:47.090 --> 35:48.750 Is there any, you know 35:49.950 --> 35:54.890 I I don't know if there's any way I wish he could include people. I wish they could sit down and have conversations 35:54.890 --> 35:57.410 I don't know if they're willing to do it doesn't they're ever 35:57.910 --> 36:02.070 Off it's been offered he's offered to show up ace if he didn't yeah show up 36:02.070 --> 36:07.370 No, I was just on the Charlie Kirk show with Aaron seary and and we offered paul off it to come to be a part of it 36:07.370 --> 36:11.690 And he wouldn't and I mean I hope that they'll some of them will be more willing to do it 36:11.690 --> 36:13.710 I don't think people like paulford are going to do at this point 36:13.710 --> 36:16.870 They've not wanted to do it for so long, but there are so many other people involved 36:17.250 --> 36:18.770 and many other doctors and 36:19.590 --> 36:24.010 If I had a dream it would be that they would sit down in a room and talk about some of these things and do it 36:24.010 --> 36:26.250 Openly so that they could say their position 36:26.250 --> 36:30.230 He could say his position and they could find some sort of common ground to work from 36:30.750 --> 36:35.010 He doesn't necessarily have the time to do that. So that that may be the problem is 36:35.530 --> 36:39.930 Oh, I think trying to get people to I mean like if he I think he would do it 36:39.930 --> 36:43.510 But I I think that having those discussions would take a lot more time than just making changes 36:43.510 --> 36:46.150 So I think he's doing what he thinks is is best 36:46.150 --> 36:51.290 but ultimately that's at the cost of including people that aren't he needs to be the 36:51.690 --> 36:55.090 The the minions the fighters of what he actually wants to do to change the schedule 36:55.090 --> 36:58.830 He actually need the people to change the schedule that are administering the vaccines and right now 36:59.450 --> 37:01.350 You don't see that. So I I think 37:02.650 --> 37:05.170 That's where it's really tough for him. I would imagine I don't know 37:05.170 --> 37:07.010 I've never spoken to about it 37:07.010 --> 37:10.770 But I I think that he's trying to do what he can do and he has only so much time 37:10.770 --> 37:14.570 For right now and he wants to get as much of it done and then he knows he's going to get pushback 37:14.570 --> 37:18.570 But the better way to do it would be to actually have discussions 37:18.570 --> 37:21.270 Well, the real better way to do it would be to have the data to back things up 37:21.270 --> 37:23.690 But since he doesn't have that data because it doesn't exist 37:23.690 --> 37:26.690 He has to do things based on what he thinks is best and the data 37:26.690 --> 37:28.110 I think he's working on the data 37:28.110 --> 37:30.070 And so let's talk just as far as the data 37:30.710 --> 37:38.510 If he does a Henry Ford style study, maybe millions of kids using some database, whether it's medicare or Medicaid or something 37:39.250 --> 37:41.110 compares vaccinated to unvaccinated 37:42.570 --> 37:43.450 What would 37:44.230 --> 37:45.610 What would AAP 37:46.390 --> 37:49.410 Have to see I mean would they have to be in charge of it? 37:49.550 --> 37:54.090 I mean short of being in charge of it where they would accept the data. We're looking at 37:54.530 --> 37:58.830 They would never accept anything that he does. I would think I don't think in the short term 37:58.830 --> 38:02.030 They would but it still doesn't matter because you still need that as a first step 38:02.030 --> 38:05.590 We need somebody to do it so that they could say here's what they think is wrong 38:05.590 --> 38:09.030 And then you say okay, well here then give me your statisticians redo it 38:09.030 --> 38:11.150 Show me where we did it wrong do it in a different way 38:11.150 --> 38:15.230 And then hopefully other places would start to copy that and mimic and we get multiple 38:15.610 --> 38:19.750 I don't think any one thing that secretary candy does is going to change the minds of most doctors 38:20.450 --> 38:24.790 Nor should it necessarily but it might but they're going to hear about it. They're going to have to hear about the study 38:24.790 --> 38:25.490 They're going to have to 38:26.250 --> 38:30.150 Read about it look into it. Look how they did it start to focus on all right 38:30.150 --> 38:31.290 Here's how we would do it differently 38:31.290 --> 38:35.910 And that's the first step towards moving in a different direction because there was never even a discussion of that 38:35.910 --> 38:39.910 In the first place so I think he needs to do it and I think it will help no matter what they find 38:39.910 --> 38:42.850 I don't think that's going to move the needle very much 38:42.850 --> 38:47.370 But it will move it in that in in that a little bit and then hopefully we can get some 38:47.870 --> 38:51.070 Follow up from that. So well, I think yeah, I think it'll I think it is 38:51.070 --> 38:56.070 I just like the Henry Ford study is moving the needle because parents and people seeing it are saying 38:56.690 --> 38:59.950 Why can't you do a study that shows me your side's right? Right? 39:00.110 --> 39:04.830 And I think as we get more and more studies sure AAP will continue to dig its heels in 39:04.830 --> 39:09.970 And force covid vaccine on innocent children and lose more and more ground more and more relevance 39:09.970 --> 39:13.050 I think states are going to start I think people start leaving states 39:13.050 --> 39:15.930 Over some of these vaccines like it just doesn't make sense 39:15.930 --> 39:21.290 But I do think the power is in the people which is why we do what we do the more people are saying 39:21.290 --> 39:25.690 I'm just not listening to you anymore because it doesn't you're not in a reasonable position 39:25.690 --> 39:30.430 There's got to be reason around this in case and I think that's what's ultimately going to change things 39:30.430 --> 39:35.570 It's going to be the stuff that secretaries kennedy is doing but also it's the parents the parents that keep 39:36.050 --> 39:39.670 Opting out of the system or questioning it. It's going to be the thing that's going to force 39:39.970 --> 39:43.370 The doctors to say parents are concerned about this 39:43.950 --> 39:46.950 Where is the research that they want? Why don't we go do it? 39:47.010 --> 39:51.070 We're so sure the vaccines don't cause a problem. What are we worried about to go do that study? 39:51.290 --> 39:54.790 And that that that doesn't make any sense. There's very clearly 39:54.790 --> 39:58.810 It's either clearly been done and they don't want to show what it is or there's some 39:59.470 --> 40:02.610 Some sort of weird logic around not doing it 40:02.610 --> 40:07.730 Like you would think the first thing you would do to counter what secretary kennedy says would be all right 40:07.730 --> 40:10.990 We went to harvard. We looked at the last 15 years 40:10.990 --> 40:16.330 Here's the data and that's never been done. It's still not been done in the last, you know 40:16.990 --> 40:18.650 Here it's insane to see 40:19.330 --> 40:19.890 Well, no 40:19.890 --> 40:25.750 I mean, that's what I think they would do. I know let's let it be front pages in your 40:25.750 --> 40:29.330 And then but but you have to ask yourself since we know they've done it because it would be so obvious 40:29.330 --> 40:31.470 They've done it and they're not getting the response they want 40:31.470 --> 40:36.310 Why are they so gung-ho on a product that then is doing so poorly in comparative trials? 40:36.310 --> 40:38.550 All of that we could go on and on 40:39.170 --> 40:42.470 I want to have you stick around for off the record 40:42.470 --> 40:48.110 I actually want to talk about how well you're trained for infectious disease childhood illnesses 40:48.110 --> 40:52.690 Because if people stop back saying we're all going to see meals. We're all going to see chicken pox 40:52.690 --> 40:56.250 I want to know what you know about that. Have you had to do your own research? 40:56.450 --> 40:59.870 Are you ready for a chicken pox outbreak or a measles outbreak? 41:00.030 --> 41:02.810 Would you know what to do? I'm going to ask you that in off the record 41:02.810 --> 41:04.710 Where do people follow the work that you're doing? 41:05.270 --> 41:10.050 Probably the best place would be at dr. Joel gator on instagram or x so at dr. Joel gator 41:10.510 --> 41:11.850 at instagram or x 41:12.450 --> 41:16.330 The book is between a shot and a hard place. You definitely 41:16.970 --> 41:22.710 Want to pick this book up. It's also great for people that are think are on the fence. You're wanting to just move 41:23.990 --> 41:28.250 Into starting to think reasonably obviously dr. Gator is 41:28.790 --> 41:32.550 Bringing reason maybe not as far as you are at this moment 41:32.550 --> 41:36.210 But I think obviously one of those great people that is giving 41:36.790 --> 41:43.930 You know people in the republic of california and opportunity to you know change your vaccine schedule for their kids 41:43.930 --> 41:47.090 Which I always I know that's risky. It's it's honorable 41:48.050 --> 41:49.430 That you're doing it