WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.800 We all think that flow in the cardiovascular system is driven completely by the heart is 00:04.800 --> 00:10.020 what I thought for many years, but it turns out there are a half dozen studies that demonstrate 00:10.020 --> 00:13.160 that if you stop the heart, flow continues, it doesn't stop. 00:13.540 --> 00:19.280 This is the true health report where critical appraisal fuels true freedom. 00:26.310 --> 00:27.270 Hello everyone. 00:27.570 --> 00:34.110 I am Dr. Andy Kaufman and today I have a returning guest, someone who has made major 00:34.110 --> 00:40.390 contributions to what I might call the new science or the new biology and specifically 00:40.750 --> 00:44.010 the new science around water. 00:44.350 --> 00:49.750 It's none other than Dr. Gerald Pollack, the author of The Fourth Phase of Water. 00:50.150 --> 00:56.410 He is releasing a new book called Charged, which we will discuss a bit today that's 00:56.410 --> 00:58.430 available for pre-order. 00:58.430 --> 01:06.390 Now, Dr. Pollack is really one of the main people who is going to be looked upon back in 01:06.390 --> 01:13.270 time historically who has made very significant contributions to the physical and biological 01:13.270 --> 01:18.530 sciences, even though it may not be as well known as it should be today. 01:19.090 --> 01:26.530 I'm telling you that these new findings are extremely significant and important to 01:26.530 --> 01:26.970 know about. 01:26.970 --> 01:34.530 I feel very fortunate to have Gerald back today to discuss some more issues. 01:34.870 --> 01:36.190 Welcome, Dr. Pollack. 01:36.750 --> 01:37.990 Well, thank you, Andy. 01:38.750 --> 01:40.970 Delighted, thrilled to be with you. 01:42.010 --> 01:47.970 Well, it's not very often that I feel like I'm having a conversation with a living 01:47.970 --> 01:48.470 legend. 01:48.950 --> 01:52.490 I really appreciate that you're working with me on here. 01:52.490 --> 01:52.990 Yes. 01:53.770 --> 02:00.190 Well, it's because of your humility that I think even the contributions are more significant 02:00.190 --> 02:06.590 because what you've done here has taken a subject that has really been taken for granted, 02:06.850 --> 02:12.530 that water is just some background solvent that plays no active role. 02:12.730 --> 02:17.890 It just provides a milieu for all of the chemistry and biology that goes on in the 02:17.890 --> 02:18.690 natural world. 02:19.170 --> 02:25.310 Now, we know that it is so much more than that, and even if we don't have nearly all 02:25.310 --> 02:33.690 the answers yet, we know that it is far more important and active in our bodies than anyone 02:33.690 --> 02:41.330 has ever suspected, and bringing that to the forefront is really crucial to deepen 02:41.330 --> 02:44.470 our understanding of how organisms work. 02:45.310 --> 02:47.430 That's what we're going to go into today. 02:47.430 --> 02:56.770 Along those lines, I know a lot of my dedicated audience is very familiar with the 02:56.770 --> 03:02.830 force phase of water, structured water, easy water that there are many terms applied to this, 03:03.310 --> 03:10.010 but for some new listeners, maybe you could give a basic description of what 03:10.010 --> 03:13.190 we're talking about here with the fourth phase of water. 03:13.930 --> 03:16.130 Sure, happy to do that. 03:16.130 --> 03:27.870 Well, it's been long recognized by scientists on whose shoulders I stand that the water inside 03:27.870 --> 03:34.250 the cell was not like water in a glass. The idea was coined mainly by a guy named Gilbert 03:34.250 --> 03:41.150 Ling, a legendary figure who is very controversial, and he said that water in the cell differs from 03:41.150 --> 03:45.070 water in a glass, and he had a lot of evidence to suggest that that was the case. 03:45.070 --> 03:51.210 He said it was so-called structured. Now, that's a kind of vague term. What it means is that the 03:51.210 --> 03:59.290 water instead of liquid water, which is what the textbooks tell us, populates the cell, 03:59.770 --> 04:06.030 liquid water basically consists of water molecules that are randomly arranged and 04:06.030 --> 04:10.870 bouncing around a fierce number of times every second or even every femtosecond. 04:10.870 --> 04:15.570 He said, no, no, inside the cell, the water molecules are kind of stacked, 04:15.890 --> 04:21.390 like soldiers at attention. I don't know if he coined the phrase or somebody else, 04:21.470 --> 04:26.570 but they're lined up, and you can imagine that the molecules would be lined up because 04:26.570 --> 04:32.410 water molecules are often considered to be a dipole that is like a bean with plus at one end, 04:32.630 --> 04:37.470 minus at the other end. You can imagine how these beans can stack upon one another, 04:37.470 --> 04:45.150 and he espoused that idea for many years and wrote several books which are largely impenetrable 04:45.150 --> 04:51.710 for those who can understand rather convincing, and that's where we started. I was so intrigued by 04:51.710 --> 04:57.110 what he reported that we began studying the structure of water, and we found 04:58.050 --> 05:03.790 we could confirm that he was right, that the water was not at all like water in a glass, 05:03.790 --> 05:08.230 and it had structure to it. What we found, however, was that the structure differed 05:08.230 --> 05:12.930 from what Gilbert was talking about, and the difference is significant because 05:13.670 --> 05:21.470 it implies a lot of interesting material that are central for function. 05:22.050 --> 05:28.010 I guess, without going into huge detail, I'll just mention a couple of the properties 05:28.010 --> 05:36.810 of this kind of water. First of all, it's not H2O. The H2O undergoes a transition, a change, 05:37.170 --> 05:44.750 to something that is actually H3O2, and has a somewhat different structure from ordinary 05:45.390 --> 05:52.650 water molecules, and I guess one of the most significant properties of this water is that 05:52.650 --> 06:01.570 it's negatively charged. Now, it kind of didn't make sense to us at the onset, because if you 06:01.570 --> 06:07.630 start with ordinary water and it somehow undergoes a transition to the kind of water I've just 06:07.630 --> 06:13.550 mentioned, if you start with neutral water, how do you get water with negative charge? 06:14.130 --> 06:16.990 You can't simply create negativity out of nothing. 06:17.690 --> 06:26.650 So, what we found is that situated adjacent to this negatively charged water, which we call 06:26.650 --> 06:32.950 easy water, fourth phase water, sitting next to it is ordinary water containing excess positive 06:32.950 --> 06:38.110 charge. So, you've got negative charge, next to positive charge, and the two of them add up 06:38.110 --> 06:42.630 to zero, which kind of makes sense because that's what you started with. 06:42.630 --> 06:48.750 Now, Gerald, before you go too much further, let me just sum up for people who are hearing this 06:48.750 --> 06:57.690 for the first time and correct me if I make any errors. So, if we compare... So, we're talking 06:57.690 --> 07:03.810 about what Gilbert Lynn Coins structured water, maybe ordered water might be a slightly more 07:03.810 --> 07:10.130 accurate term based on your description, but it's a distinct form of water from regular 07:10.130 --> 07:19.890 liquid water in a glass, which when we analyze it, we can observe evidence that water in a glass is a 07:19.890 --> 07:26.310 bunch of particles of water molecules that are kind of energetic and moving around somewhat 07:26.310 --> 07:33.590 chaotically and randomly and not forming any particular ordered structure, but of course 07:33.590 --> 07:38.050 conforming to the shape of the glass and having other properties like finding its own 07:38.050 --> 07:44.390 level and such that we already know about at length. Now, when we have structured water, 07:44.610 --> 07:50.970 which could exist in the same container like a glass of water, then it's distinct because now 07:50.970 --> 07:57.950 it forms a much more ordered structure. It's not a randomly moving particles in a chaotic 07:57.950 --> 08:03.610 manner. It's now at least part of it, the structured part is going to be in an ordered 08:03.610 --> 08:09.590 arrangement. And one way that you might understand that is because a water molecule, as you said, 08:09.730 --> 08:16.750 has polarization that the charge distribution over the molecule is uneven. So, you have 08:17.550 --> 08:22.670 some parts of it that have like a partial positive charge and some that are a negative charge. 08:23.190 --> 08:29.490 And if we compare that, let's say to if you had a dozen bar magnets, you know that you could 08:29.490 --> 08:34.190 put the North Pole from one against the South Pole of another and line them up in a row, 08:34.370 --> 08:41.410 or you could put stack them by having the North, South and then reverse South, North on top of it, 08:41.830 --> 08:45.510 right? And put them in different arrangements based on their magnetic properties, 08:45.550 --> 08:50.870 which is similar to electrical charge properties in that opposites attract and like repel. 08:51.450 --> 08:58.010 And you've learned some more specifics about the actual nature of the atoms in this structured 08:58.010 --> 09:03.770 arrangement, that it takes on a different arrangement than the common H2O that we've 09:03.770 --> 09:09.430 heard about. And that within the water, within like a container or a vessel of water, you can 09:09.430 --> 09:17.310 actually have two forms of water that have opposite charges. And I think this is commonly 09:17.310 --> 09:24.170 described in water dissociation, right where water becomes a negatively charged OH or hydroxyl 09:24.170 --> 09:31.050 group and a proton and H plus. And whether that exactly is what happens, you could see it's similar, 09:31.350 --> 09:36.290 but those then different charges would be separated. And of course, when we have charges separated 09:36.290 --> 09:42.970 in space, we have an electrical potential or a voltage. And that has a whole lot of properties 09:42.970 --> 09:47.830 that we could talk about that derive from it. And you haven't mentioned any other physical 09:47.830 --> 09:54.550 properties yet, but there are other physical properties like viscosity that's different in this 09:54.550 --> 09:59.910 structured water as compared to regular bulk water, I think is the term that you use in your book. 10:01.070 --> 10:04.110 Absolutely correct. You can be my agent. 10:07.010 --> 10:13.570 Yeah, well, I mean, so this forms the separation of charges is really important because it 10:13.570 --> 10:20.090 creates it's a battery essentially in batteries, you know, can supply energy. And we have evidence 10:20.830 --> 10:25.710 that that this this kind of electrical energy is actually used by the body. 10:26.550 --> 10:35.170 And that's why I was I was beginning to to allude to to that property because it's it's quite 10:35.170 --> 10:41.710 important. Right. And I think if we combine some of your work with Gilbert Ling's work, 10:41.710 --> 10:47.230 we can draw some conclusions at least about some of the applications of that energy like 10:47.670 --> 10:52.050 in terms of establishing and maintaining the resting membrane potential, 10:52.330 --> 10:56.970 which is like the cellular batteries that could do electrical work. 10:57.570 --> 11:04.670 Yep, absolutely. And if I may interject, you know, you can think of it in a simple way. 11:04.970 --> 11:10.770 And so it's full of negative charges. And the negative charges, I argue, come from the 11:10.770 --> 11:17.470 water that or fourth phase water that that fills the cell. And when you stick a lot of negative 11:17.470 --> 11:22.970 charges together, all they want to do is repel, they want to get away from each other as much as 11:22.970 --> 11:29.030 possible. And that amounts to potential energy. And when the cell becomes active, the electrical 11:29.030 --> 11:34.590 potential goes from negative to zero, it's called action potential. But it's actually 11:35.650 --> 11:42.410 deeply ingrained in a phase transition that I argue occurs when the cell becomes activated. But 11:42.410 --> 11:49.050 either way, anyway, the cell goes from a state in which it's got a lot of negative charges packed 11:49.050 --> 11:54.470 to a state where those charges are not packed anymore anymore. And that's how it delivers 11:54.470 --> 12:00.870 energy, that potential energy gets converted into energy that drives the activity of the cell, 12:00.870 --> 12:09.170 the action of the cell. And so more specifically, what processes of the cell 12:09.830 --> 12:16.730 utilize the energy from that excessive negative charge? And I mean, are we talking about reactions 12:16.730 --> 12:22.310 in the electron transport chain, for example, that may consume some of the reagents with 12:22.310 --> 12:28.230 those charges? Or are we talking about transduction into other forms of energy? What 12:28.230 --> 12:33.510 are the ways that the cells utilize this electrical potential? 12:35.470 --> 12:42.810 In ways that we haven't fully explored yet, but we've explored at least one of them. And that is 12:42.810 --> 12:51.130 flow. There are numerous flows inside the cell, inside the body. And we demonstrated, first of 12:51.130 --> 12:57.910 all, in the laboratory that if you take a tube that looks like a section of a blood vessel, 12:57.910 --> 13:04.510 for example, but a tube made of material that's hydrophilic, water-loving, and you simply immerse 13:04.510 --> 13:10.410 the tube in the water and horizontally place it at the bottom of the chamber. 13:11.130 --> 13:17.390 You don't expect anything, but we found something. We found that the flow occurs through the tube, 13:17.390 --> 13:23.450 like through a straw, perpetually, essentially perpetually. So some energy has got to drive 13:23.450 --> 13:31.990 it because you can't achieve flow without energy. And we found that it's this battery-like potential. 13:32.970 --> 13:38.790 I need to describe a bit more of it, but essentially this electrical potential is used 13:38.790 --> 13:48.710 to drive the flow. And we found later that this energy is used in the cardiovascular system to 13:48.710 --> 13:54.010 help perpetuate flow. We all think that flow in the cardiovascular system is driven completely 13:54.010 --> 13:59.790 by the heart, is what I thought for many years. But it turns out there are a half dozen studies 13:59.790 --> 14:05.370 that demonstrate that if you stop the heart, flow continues. It doesn't stop. And I was as 14:05.370 --> 14:09.950 surprised as you are, I think, or were to find out about this. And we could confirm it in 14:09.950 --> 14:14.710 the laboratory. Same thing. So it means that it's not just the heart. There must be 14:14.710 --> 14:22.750 something else that's working along with the heart. And we found indeed that it is experimentally 14:23.270 --> 14:30.730 confirmed that it is this flow phenomenon that I just mentioned that's actually responsible. 14:31.750 --> 14:37.750 And so what we confirmed is that in our cardiovascular system, mine for sure, maybe yours 14:37.750 --> 14:46.070 do. It's not just the heart that's doing the work. It's the vessels as well. So the energy 14:46.070 --> 14:53.970 we're talking about, this battery-like energy, which there's so much for me to say, to describe 14:55.170 --> 15:05.250 in order to make this sound more realistic, is at work. So that's just one example that we 15:05.250 --> 15:10.450 know of in which the battery-like energy is getting used. 15:11.350 --> 15:19.330 Well, now I want to just emphasize the importance of this discovery because we have two other things 15:19.330 --> 15:26.950 that are relevant. So one is that it was not very believable that the heart would be able to pump 15:26.950 --> 15:33.430 the blood all the way to the most distal capillaries, where the diameter of those capillaries 15:33.430 --> 15:39.510 is smaller than the diameter of the red blood cells that are supposed to pass through them. 15:39.750 --> 15:47.230 So having another source of flow and one where the actual exclusion zone may actually 15:47.830 --> 15:52.990 create room in those capillaries for the blood cells to get through, and we know red blood cells 15:52.990 --> 15:57.650 are charged on their surface as well, and that may contribute to the motion. 15:58.270 --> 16:03.190 But now we have something that actually is believable. And the experiment you mentioned, 16:03.310 --> 16:10.330 where you put a naffion tube inside of a beaker of water and flow just starts and never stops, 16:10.750 --> 16:14.930 I mean, that's it's one of the most fascinating things because if you didn't 16:14.930 --> 16:19.730 know the results of your additional experiments, like namely where the energy input is coming 16:19.730 --> 16:26.330 from, you would think it was a perpetual motion machine. But this is a realistic explanation 16:26.330 --> 16:31.150 for capillary blood flow at a minimum, I'm sure that it explains all the blood flow. 16:31.670 --> 16:37.650 And also in parallel, we have this new research on the heart that the heart is most likely not even 16:37.650 --> 16:43.870 a pump primarily, like it may have some pumping action, it may actually be a vortex generator more 16:43.870 --> 16:48.290 than a pump, but the whole structure of the heart is not what it is in the textbooks, 16:48.490 --> 16:53.870 that it actually can be unraveled in a helical structure, and that the contractions of the 16:53.870 --> 17:00.990 muscle clearly would create vortices. And this has become fairly mainstream, even have doctors, 17:01.290 --> 17:06.890 cardiologists at UCLA talking about this. And of course, there are some doctors in Spain and 17:06.890 --> 17:13.590 elsewhere who have championed this idea. So this definitely fits with what we now know about 17:13.590 --> 17:19.970 water's ability to flow spontaneously. And I think you've also shown other ways this 17:19.970 --> 17:26.590 energy can be utilized, but perhaps you could educate the audience on where does the energy 17:27.250 --> 17:32.090 come from that allows water or what are the necessary ingredients for water to adopt 17:32.090 --> 17:38.650 this energetic structure? Sure. Yeah, you can't create energy from nothing. 17:40.130 --> 17:45.310 You can't create it or destroy it. All you can do is transform it from one form to the other. 17:45.310 --> 17:53.890 And I got to admit we couldn't figure out for quite a long time where the input energy was coming 17:53.890 --> 18:00.330 from. And it was an undergraduate student that perhaps 18 years old with no experience at all 18:00.330 --> 18:06.090 playing around who discovered where the energy was coming from, or at least one source of energy. 18:06.790 --> 18:13.870 And he was playing around with a chamber sitting on a bench, and he was observing, 18:13.870 --> 18:22.790 we could observe this fourth phase or exclusion zone as distinct from the rest of the water with 18:22.790 --> 18:30.630 a particular setup in which we put particles in the water. And this zone, a pure liquid 18:30.630 --> 18:35.090 crystalline kind of zone, would exclude these particles. So it was a clear zone 18:35.090 --> 18:40.390 next to a zone full of particles. And he was observing that, I don't know, 18:40.390 --> 18:47.470 he was either bored or curious. He found a gooseneck lamp right next to him, and he lifted it and 18:47.470 --> 18:53.510 exposed the light to the chamber. And the region that was exposed to the light grew. 18:54.710 --> 18:59.630 And so he called me in and I saw it and I finally, you know, you've answered the question 18:59.630 --> 19:04.390 that's been lingering for a long time. Where does the energy come from? It comes from light. 19:04.670 --> 19:09.450 And it's not a surprise if you think about it, because that's exactly what plants do. 19:09.450 --> 19:15.850 The first step in the photosynthetic process is light impinges on the leaves of the plant, 19:16.510 --> 19:23.110 and what it does is effectively, it takes water and separates the water into OH- and H+. It's 19:23.110 --> 19:30.130 just what we found. You see, so there's precedent for what we found. It's not really so arcane 19:30.930 --> 19:37.570 at all. It's actually rather common in nature. So we found it's light. And of course, 19:37.570 --> 19:43.490 after the student did his experiments, we did a lot of additional experiments to 19:43.490 --> 19:49.070 check out what wavelengths are important. And we found that red is important, but infrared, 19:49.690 --> 19:57.310 that is beyond wavelength, slightly longer than red, is profoundly able to build the 19:57.310 --> 20:04.730 exclusion zone. So the answer, at least one source of energy is light. So it means 20:05.420 --> 20:11.690 if this is working within our bodies, it means that in some sense we act like plants. We wouldn't 20:11.690 --> 20:20.310 think so. But we have more in common with plants than we might think. Light is important, 20:20.530 --> 20:25.410 infrared light particularly is important, and red light. And it's been used therapeutically 20:26.350 --> 20:32.470 now fairly widely, red light therapy and infrared light therapy. But mostly it's used 20:32.470 --> 20:37.150 in a way that many of the people who use it don't really understand why it works as well 20:37.150 --> 20:44.730 as it works for so many syndromes. So Darrell, I actually did put out a video on this very topic, 20:44.890 --> 20:52.330 and that's exactly what I said, is that nobody has made the connection as to structuring water 20:52.330 --> 20:58.290 with these red light devices. And furthermore, the specific wavelengths that the devices 20:58.290 --> 21:05.150 are using are not the optimal wavelengths to maximize this property. And I've actually 21:05.150 --> 21:11.770 tried to advise some companies that you want to consider using the peak absorption wavelength 21:11.770 --> 21:17.230 of structured water for this, because the results of the clinical trials at these 21:17.230 --> 21:26.170 inferior wavelengths is promising but it's not super impressive. It doesn't blow you away. 21:26.650 --> 21:36.990 But I have the intuition telling me that it could blow you away if you tuned it to your 21:36.990 --> 21:42.930 discovery. So hopefully someone out there or maybe someone in your lab will take that upon 21:42.930 --> 21:50.470 themselves and conduct some clinical studies to see if we can really optimize that device. 21:50.470 --> 21:58.810 But let me just back to basics. So if we were to say, what is the recipe for structured water? 21:59.050 --> 22:08.750 It sounds like it is water, a hydrophilic surface, and infrared light exposure, which is ubiquitous. 22:09.030 --> 22:14.050 You'd have to actively block that. But you could, of course, optimize it with 22:14.050 --> 22:18.010 artificial sources of infrared light. Am I correct? 22:18.730 --> 22:25.970 You're partially correct. There's something else that we found experimentally that builds 22:25.970 --> 22:35.550 easy water and that is negative charge electrons. So if you have an electrode that emits current or 22:36.170 --> 22:42.210 electrons, you start with ordinary liquid water and that liquid water actually transitions 22:42.210 --> 22:47.690 into easy water, fourth phase water, and we have experimental evidence for that. 22:48.230 --> 22:51.730 Is this also when you have a hydrophilic surface? 22:52.430 --> 22:57.370 No, you don't need a hydrophilic surface. You just start with ordinary liquid water. 22:57.710 --> 23:01.650 The experiment, in fact, is to put two electrodes in water because if you put 23:01.650 --> 23:07.930 one electrode in water, you can't really produce current. And next to the negative 23:07.930 --> 23:14.770 electrode, easy, negatively charged easy water builds. Next to the positive electrode, 23:15.270 --> 23:22.630 there is another species called positive easy water, which is unusual, but it does occur. 23:22.910 --> 23:27.550 And so we don't talk about it a whole lot because it's unusual and it tends to build 23:27.550 --> 23:36.190 next to metal surfaces. So these two species build and you find a negatively charged zone 23:36.190 --> 23:42.890 next to a positively charged zone because these zones keep building up until they pretty much 23:42.890 --> 23:47.650 intersect one another. And when they intersect one another, they don't recombine. 23:48.190 --> 23:57.470 They remain independent of one another for a good lead length of time. Now that's a kind of 23:57.470 --> 24:02.030 surprise because when you put negative next to positive, we all know that the two will 24:02.030 --> 24:06.830 recombine instantly. They don't like to be... Well, but what if you turn off the electricity? 24:07.530 --> 24:16.330 Does it recombine then? It persists for experimentally hours before they eventually 24:17.490 --> 24:24.630 recombine. Everything runs down. And so this runs down as well. But we're talking about 24:25.190 --> 24:32.410 hours now instead of microseconds or tempteroseconds, plus and minus, they attract one another 24:32.410 --> 24:37.350 and they should instantly recombine. But that doesn't happen. 24:38.010 --> 24:45.590 Now, Gerald, what if you had an object that was statically charged negative and inserted it 24:45.590 --> 24:49.850 in a glass of water? So in other words, there's no flow of electricity, but you have a negatively 24:49.850 --> 24:56.050 charged object. Would that create an easy water around that object? 24:58.970 --> 25:05.310 Or have you not done an experiment? No, no. I'm thinking we have done some experiments and 25:08.890 --> 25:14.130 I'm trying to think back now. This probably would be 10 or 15 years ago. 25:14.130 --> 25:22.230 So I mean, proteins do that. Proteins have charged surfaces and they tend to be 25:23.150 --> 25:32.190 mostly negative. And the evidence is suggesting that it's the negatively charged surfaces 25:32.710 --> 25:36.350 of those proteins that build easy water. And that's why the cell is filled with 25:36.350 --> 25:42.190 easy water. So I'd like to say yes, but I guess I need to think about that too. 25:42.190 --> 25:47.190 Now, Gerald, those negatively charged surfaces are also hydrophilic. 25:48.430 --> 25:52.270 And there's also infrared light that penetrates into the cells, right? 25:52.530 --> 25:53.270 There is. Yeah. 25:53.630 --> 26:02.390 So could it be that actually it's both energy inputs that contribute to the easy structure? 26:03.290 --> 26:09.730 Could be. Yeah, it could be. I mean, we know that both of those do it and whether 26:09.730 --> 26:15.230 I think what you're alluding to is that it might not be negative charge alone. 26:15.790 --> 26:20.910 It may be the combination of negative charge and infrared energy. And that's a possibility. 26:22.010 --> 26:29.910 Very fascinating. And are there... Now, I know that not every single hydrophilic surface 26:29.910 --> 26:35.690 will work for this. Do you, right? Because you've tested a number of different surfaces. 26:35.690 --> 26:44.670 And what surfaces are not functioning in this way? And do you have any conclusions or patterns that 26:44.670 --> 26:51.870 you've observed? Yes, we're doing experiments right now. And it seems that... Let me just 26:51.870 --> 26:58.570 tell you the experiment. So we take a substance that's hydrophilic and that does generate 26:58.570 --> 27:07.290 exclusion zone. And then we add cross-links to it so the surface becomes... Or the substance 27:07.290 --> 27:17.650 becomes harder. And it turns out that the softer the substance is, the easier it is to build 27:17.650 --> 27:23.750 exclusion zones. And we think the reason for that is that the way the exclusion zone builds 27:23.750 --> 27:30.370 is sheet by sheet. The sheets pile upon one another. Now, the first sheet has a particular 27:31.810 --> 27:38.390 characteristic charge distribution. And in order for the surface to nucleate the growth of that 27:38.390 --> 27:45.510 first sheet, the charges on the surface have to match oppositely to the charges that 27:45.510 --> 27:51.850 exist on the first layer. Then the match is perfect or the match is good and the growth 27:51.850 --> 27:58.990 can begin. But if you have a hard substance and the charges don't match exactly what they need to be 27:58.990 --> 28:08.370 to serve as a template, it doesn't work. And so therefore, we think... It's not published yet. 28:08.550 --> 28:14.550 The studies are ongoing. That is the charge distribution on the surface that really is 28:14.550 --> 28:20.510 critical for the buildup of easy water. And then the first layer nucleates the growth of 28:20.510 --> 28:25.330 the second layer and so on and so on. And they'll grow typically a million layers, 28:25.810 --> 28:34.070 million sheets. And are any of the materials that you found that do not allow easy formation? 28:34.390 --> 28:40.070 Are any of them biological materials or are they all handmade? No, we've never seen a biological 28:40.070 --> 28:48.230 material that fails to nucleate the growth. I think that's practically the definition of 28:48.230 --> 28:52.610 biological materials, the ability to nucleate the growth of easy water. 28:53.510 --> 28:58.650 So if you, for example, in that experiment you described earlier with the naffion tube, 28:58.730 --> 29:04.130 if you used an arterial graft, you'd have the same results, right? 29:04.770 --> 29:12.550 We actually found that result very early on. We opened up some vessels, blood vessels, to see 29:14.010 --> 29:20.110 whether it was known, it has been known for more than 50 years, that there's a zone 29:20.110 --> 29:26.430 inside the vessel, a kind of annular zone where the red blood cells don't want to go. 29:26.710 --> 29:31.290 An exclusion zone. Well, exclusion zone. It wasn't called that when it was observed, 29:31.330 --> 29:36.430 but now we know that's what it is, right? That's what it is. And the thought was that 29:36.430 --> 29:42.530 it has something to do with hydrodynamics, with the flow. And there were theoreticians who 29:42.550 --> 29:49.230 worked on that. And that's the thinking. I thought it had to do with formation of 29:49.230 --> 29:54.530 exclusion zone. So we took some vessels and we opened them up and exposed them to red blood cells. 29:55.150 --> 29:59.910 And we indeed found that there was an exclusion zone next to the endothelial 30:00.790 --> 30:06.170 surface that kept the red blood cells away. We never published it. We should have, but 30:06.170 --> 30:14.430 it was done by a student and students leave, they graduate. And so no opportunity to write up 30:14.430 --> 30:21.250 the results of the studies. Well, listen, if you're ever in that position, I can find you 30:21.250 --> 30:29.370 someone to write it up. I know some writers that maybe don't do their own studies, but 30:29.370 --> 30:38.090 they could definitely write up a good paper. You mean AI? No, no, no, no. I mean, 30:38.190 --> 30:44.390 that's an interesting thing. I mean, I'm not a big fan of having AI generate original creative 30:44.390 --> 30:54.310 material, but it could improve your productivity that way. But I'm talking about flesh and 30:54.310 --> 31:04.230 blood individuals. Okay, well, perhaps I'll accept your offer. The main limitation, in fact, 31:04.350 --> 31:09.350 in our lab is funding. It's really hard, as you know, to get funding for work that runs 31:09.350 --> 31:14.230 against mainstream thinking. We're working on it. So, you know, in order to have the people 31:14.230 --> 31:23.010 in the lab, you need to pay them because they eat and they need a place to live. And that's 31:24.310 --> 31:31.650 I spend a good deal of my time grumbling for money. And, you know, we have reasonable amount that 31:32.970 --> 31:39.570 but not enough to run the lab in a really vibrant way that's characterized the lab for so many years. 31:41.550 --> 31:48.430 Well, that's life. So, well, it's, you know, it's definitely a challenge. And I think this 31:48.430 --> 31:53.730 is really a problem with the way science is funded. You know, I didn't expect to talk 31:53.730 --> 32:00.790 about this today, but really, I mean, almost all of the major research funding comes from government, 32:01.010 --> 32:08.550 and they only fund projects that are within their own policy directives. And anything that threatens 32:08.550 --> 32:14.450 some of the medical industrial complex, for example, in this area of research, or if it 32:14.450 --> 32:19.670 threatens other major industries that are in cahoots with government, right, they don't want 32:19.670 --> 32:24.450 to fund it. And same thing with private funding, you know, mostly it's from 32:24.450 --> 32:30.430 for-profit organizations. There are some, of course, charitable foundations, but they're few and far 32:30.430 --> 32:38.210 between and difficult to access. So anyone out there who, you know, is interested in funding 32:38.210 --> 32:45.170 important research for the future, or maybe the way that really this could be funded is by 32:45.170 --> 32:50.710 developing a commercial product based on this technology that can, you know, the profits can 32:50.710 --> 32:57.530 fund future research instead of just making you a wealthy man. No, I have no interest in becoming 32:57.530 --> 33:04.810 a wealthy man. In fact, we don't do anything that touches on anything commercial. I have a 33:04.810 --> 33:12.370 seriously deep interest in fundamental science. And I think, much like you, I have come to 33:12.370 --> 33:20.710 the conclusion that many of the ideas, theorems, concepts that we read about in the textbooks 33:20.710 --> 33:30.250 are dead wrong. And that's what I, that's exactly what I want to do for the rest of my life. And 33:30.250 --> 33:35.430 we've contributed some, there's a lot more that's going on, and a lot more ideas that 33:35.880 --> 33:41.030 I have that I want to pursue that are fundamental. Commercialism is not interesting 33:41.030 --> 33:47.930 for me. I'm sorry, there's a lot that comes out of our work that could be commercialized, 33:47.950 --> 33:54.050 but I don't want to be the one to do it. Of course, no, you need like some kind of partner who would 33:54.750 --> 34:01.050 do that and then funnel the profits back to you for funding future research projects or 34:01.050 --> 34:06.930 something like that. That's an interesting idea. Sure. Yeah. And because, you know, and I 34:06.930 --> 34:12.670 did want to actually talk about the commercial space related to this science and technology, 34:12.790 --> 34:21.190 because I'm confronted all the time being, you know, a health educator and a consultant that 34:21.920 --> 34:26.970 people are interested in this devices. And, you know, we can actually find some interesting 34:26.970 --> 34:32.370 research from animal studies where they describe making structured water. I'm going to ask you 34:32.370 --> 34:38.230 exactly what they're making in a moment, but they do have some very impressive health outcomes in 34:38.230 --> 34:43.410 animal studies. Now, I don't think there are really any human studies that have objective 34:43.410 --> 34:49.110 outcomes showing a benefit, but I think that they're coming in the future. But the animal 34:49.110 --> 34:56.410 studies that show these results, they all use strong magnetic fields to generate what they 34:56.410 --> 35:00.950 call structured water. Now, that's different from what you described as the ways to 35:00.950 --> 35:06.190 structure water. So are you familiar with this research and what exactly is the nature of the 35:06.190 --> 35:12.670 water that they're using in these experiments? We haven't explored them. There are so many 35:12.670 --> 35:21.290 products. And if we spent our time investigating them and determining the extent to which they 35:22.070 --> 35:29.630 produce easy water, we'd have no time left to do the fundamental experiments. So as a blanket 35:29.630 --> 35:35.470 rule, we don't investigate any of these devices. So I really don't have a lot to say except 35:36.050 --> 35:41.330 that you mentioned magnetic fields. And we did some experiments. We published the results 35:41.330 --> 35:47.610 recently and we found that if we put a magnet in water, we immersed the magnet, we found that 35:47.610 --> 35:54.710 next to the north pole and easy forms and next to the south pole, another easy forms. And 35:55.670 --> 36:02.310 we're pretty confident of that result. We just haven't had time to pursue it further. So if 36:03.170 --> 36:09.670 the idea is that a magnetic field is being applied and the effect of the magnetic field is a positive 36:09.670 --> 36:17.590 one, and we could understand that at least in a preliminary way that that the positive effect 36:17.590 --> 36:25.950 could be the result of easy water forming. Now, just to clarify, these research papers 36:25.950 --> 36:30.710 that I'm mentioning, they're not using any commercially available products. And they also, 36:30.850 --> 36:38.930 they don't submerge any magnets in the water. They use an external magnetic field. So a common 36:38.930 --> 36:45.850 thing would be to put an array of neodymium magnets on the outside of a pipe and then 36:45.850 --> 36:50.010 have the water flow through that pipe into a vessel. And then that's how they create the drinking 36:50.010 --> 36:55.370 water. Or they have an electromagnet that they put the water inside the field of the strong 36:55.370 --> 37:01.890 electromagnet. And that's how they generate this water. So I hear the important that the 37:01.890 --> 37:07.030 central factor is the existence of a magnetic field. Exactly. How do you create the magnetic 37:07.030 --> 37:12.930 field might be? But there's no surface like you described next to the surface of the north 37:12.930 --> 37:19.590 pole, would you find an exclusion zone? In this case, the water doesn't have an interface surface 37:19.590 --> 37:25.510 with the magnet, right? It's in the magnetic field. So it's a little bit distinct. 37:26.970 --> 37:33.230 Yeah. And I really can't say any more about it because we haven't pursued it. And I know 37:33.790 --> 37:39.630 it's been traditional that people wear magnetic bracelets and whatever, thinking that 37:40.330 --> 37:46.230 that it's good for health. And it goes along with our finding and the findings that you're 37:46.230 --> 37:52.030 talking about that magnetic fields really have an impact in the book that is just coming out. 37:52.430 --> 37:58.630 I speculate that magnetic fields may in fact be the same as electric fields. 37:59.030 --> 38:06.710 And I don't want to go into the argument right now. But magnetic fields have been 38:06.710 --> 38:12.130 known for thousands of years that the Chinese used them hundreds or thousands of years ago. 38:13.210 --> 38:18.270 Little slivers of magnetite to point north. So they knew where north was. Electric fields 38:18.270 --> 38:22.570 are only a couple hundred years old, or at least the understanding of electric fields. 38:23.350 --> 38:29.850 And there was no reason or any attempt to think that the two might be one and the same. 38:31.230 --> 38:35.030 Many of the properties are similar. Many of the properties of the two. And so 38:35.030 --> 38:46.430 anybody who wants to take the trouble to read the new book will hear my arguments on that theme. 38:47.430 --> 38:52.950 Now, that makes me think of all those right hand and left hand rules you have in engineering 38:52.950 --> 38:59.830 and such for the direction of the various fields. And you could see how they're almost the 38:59.830 --> 39:07.270 same just one key vector difference in many of these situations. So what you're saying 39:07.270 --> 39:13.450 certainly deserves more thought. So when we're talking about these different ways to structure 39:13.450 --> 39:20.210 water, it seems to me that if you have a hydrophilic surface like a piece of biological tissue, 39:20.710 --> 39:27.770 a piece of wood, or a piece of naphyan inside of a vessel of water, that the 39:28.330 --> 39:35.310 easy water will only form adjacent to that surface. Whereas you describe that if you put 39:35.710 --> 39:42.690 a positive and negative electrodes and turn on the flow into a vessel of water, that the entire 39:42.690 --> 39:49.130 vessel of water will become charged with charge separation, like half being half of the glass 39:49.130 --> 39:54.830 being positive and half being negative roughly. So is that the big difference that using that 39:54.830 --> 40:00.870 method that all the water in the vessel has achieved this different phase, whereas it's 40:00.870 --> 40:08.750 localized in the example with a hydrophilic surface? Well, if I understand your question, 40:08.970 --> 40:14.490 I'm not sure I do, but let me explain what happens inside the vessel, inside the tube, 40:14.650 --> 40:19.550 either a naphyan tube or other tubes that we've many other tubes that we've used. 40:19.550 --> 40:26.430 But even if you don't use a tubular piece, let's say the glass is this tall 40:27.070 --> 40:32.950 and there's a piece of hydrophilic material here, the water up at the top of the glass 40:32.950 --> 40:36.770 is not going to be structured. It's going to be bulk water. 40:37.430 --> 40:44.350 Yes, the structure will build up until it sort of peters out, so to speak. 40:44.350 --> 40:47.410 And generally, that's on the order of millimeters, right? 40:48.090 --> 40:51.450 No, it's typically half a millimeter. 40:53.150 --> 41:00.690 We've seen up to a millimeter and under special conditions like a meter long tube, 41:01.030 --> 41:05.950 you can see the structure extending like a dendrite extending all the way to the end of 41:05.950 --> 41:12.270 the tube and sometimes branching and sometimes reverting back when it reaches the end of the 41:12.270 --> 41:16.150 tube. So, yeah, that's an extreme situation. 41:17.050 --> 41:22.490 Because I'm thinking if you want to, so many people want to drink water, that's structured. 41:22.990 --> 41:23.270 Yes. 41:23.470 --> 41:30.230 And it would seem to me more optimal if you're drinking a glass of water, if every 41:31.010 --> 41:35.910 bit of water in that glass is in a structured state, it would likely be of more potential 41:35.910 --> 41:40.130 benefit than only if 10% of the water in that glass is structured. 41:40.690 --> 41:41.070 Correct. 41:42.090 --> 41:49.030 So then using the electrodes would be the way to achieve that, practically speaking? 41:49.310 --> 41:56.970 Well, the alkaline water machines effectively do that. I mean, by supplying negative charge 41:56.970 --> 42:02.130 to the water and raising the pH to pH 9 or 10 or something like that, 42:03.150 --> 42:06.870 it would seem that that's what those machines would do. 42:07.490 --> 42:15.010 And I know in Japan, those machines are widely used. In fact, maybe you're aware, 42:15.090 --> 42:21.350 but I've heard from people who research this stuff that in Japan, if you walk into a clinic with 42:21.350 --> 42:31.870 any kind of issue ranging from your mouth to your anus, they will supply you with 42:32.490 --> 42:37.170 alkaline water. I'm not sure in what way, whether it's bottled or they give you a machine, 42:37.570 --> 42:42.510 and the government pays for it. And for governments to cover any, because of anything, 42:43.190 --> 42:46.610 it would seem that there must be some degree of effectiveness. 42:47.770 --> 42:50.350 Well, don't forget the government covered COVID shots. 42:51.050 --> 42:52.390 Okay, I'm with you. 42:54.650 --> 42:58.530 I would say if the government has their hand in it, it's probably not good. 42:59.210 --> 43:06.330 This may be an exception, but the water doesn't have to be alkaline to be structured, 43:06.530 --> 43:09.630 though. It can have a slightly acidic or neutral pH. 43:11.130 --> 43:17.130 I'm not so sure about that. We studied what does it mean to be alkaline? 43:17.550 --> 43:22.810 So people came to my office and I began asking them one after another after another. 43:22.810 --> 43:26.370 If you have high pH like pH nine or something like that, 43:26.390 --> 43:30.170 does the water contain net negative charge or is it neutral? 43:31.270 --> 43:35.770 Roughly half said it's neutral. The other half said it has negative charge. 43:36.590 --> 43:40.670 So it proved my point, namely that nobody knows. 43:42.050 --> 43:46.390 Well, if you have a, like you can have something that's very strongly alkaline 43:46.390 --> 43:49.730 with a counter ion that's a neutral, right? Like sodium hydroxide. 43:49.730 --> 43:55.750 Well, let me just tell you the second half of the story. We did experiments 43:56.790 --> 44:03.370 to determine indeed whether something that's alkaline has a net negative charge 44:03.370 --> 44:06.350 and something that's acidic has a net positive charge. 44:07.110 --> 44:09.850 And the correlation was like 100%. 44:10.410 --> 44:17.070 And therefore we drew the conclusion that if indeed you have something with 44:17.970 --> 44:24.490 pH eight, nine, 10 or something, it really has excess of electrons in it. 44:25.350 --> 44:31.590 And I know a lot of people think, wow, it's impossible. How can water or essentially 44:32.290 --> 44:37.970 aqueous solution contain a net charge? Wouldn't it be immediately neutralized? 44:38.050 --> 44:44.650 And the answer is no. If you think of the Kelvin water dropper machine, 44:44.650 --> 44:50.990 which you probably know about, but I'm not sure everybody knows, it's a way of creating 44:52.310 --> 44:59.850 two vessels with water in a certain way that imparts negative charge to one, 44:59.990 --> 45:03.550 positive charge to the other. If you bring them near one another, they discharge. 45:05.310 --> 45:09.970 You know, it's like a bright flash occurs between these two containers of water. 45:09.970 --> 45:20.630 So there's no doubt that water can contain net charge. It's just not so common, but water can contain 45:20.630 --> 45:28.750 net charge. So when I think of pH, it's a really convenient measure. And what it's doing when you 45:28.750 --> 45:33.550 think of a pH probe, it's measuring a potential difference. The probe itself, 45:33.790 --> 45:37.450 potential difference between water and a standard is really a measure of charge 45:38.090 --> 45:44.630 or charge separation. So there's nothing complicated or unusual about that. It's just that we don't 45:44.630 --> 45:51.110 think in those terms. So anyway, I just wanted to mention that it's some more food for thought. 45:52.490 --> 45:58.950 That is interesting. And definitely deserve some more thought because there are some 45:58.950 --> 46:04.710 other things about pH in the body and in different compartments, too, that would 46:04.710 --> 46:11.950 cause some of that. There must be more detail to it because the body can be too alkaline and 46:11.950 --> 46:17.730 that causes the same kinds of problems as when it's too acidic, for example. And some 46:17.730 --> 46:24.950 compartments in the body are highly acidic and some are slightly alkaline and some different 46:24.950 --> 46:33.150 ones in between. And so how does that all fit with the structured water situation? And of 46:33.150 --> 46:39.710 course, also, there are charged particles that are not engaged in acid-base chemistry 46:39.710 --> 46:44.950 that could affect the overall charge of a substance without affecting the pH as well. 46:46.130 --> 46:49.750 I'm not suggesting that all questions are answered. 46:50.650 --> 46:57.030 Right, right. No, of course, of course. But this kind of thinking these ideas out and 46:57.990 --> 47:04.610 trying to get at what would be the best thing to do for our health 47:05.170 --> 47:10.610 is not an easy question to answer. And my concern is that a lot of people are 47:11.250 --> 47:17.470 doing things and perhaps spending quite a pretty penny in the process on various devices and 47:17.470 --> 47:24.970 not really knowing what the outcome is going to be or even what these machines are doing 47:25.500 --> 47:32.130 to the water or to the body. Are there any standardized ways of measuring 47:32.920 --> 47:42.390 if you've produced easy water? And have these been adopted as standards? Or are we still 47:42.390 --> 47:50.110 too premature to have accepted standards? Well, yeah, I think there are methods 47:50.110 --> 47:57.190 or there is a method. It has not been adopted as a standard. It's not a complicated method. 47:57.430 --> 48:04.330 It requires only a spectrometer, a UV-Vis spectrometer, which exists in every chemistry 48:04.330 --> 48:12.790 laboratory. It's a standard piece of equipment. And we found that if you scan with light at 48:12.790 --> 48:22.270 wavelengths in the ultraviolet and visible range, if the water absorbs at the wavelength, 48:22.630 --> 48:30.810 it's in the ultraviolet, in the UV, 270 nanometers, that's an indication that there's easy water. 48:31.190 --> 48:38.010 It's not quantitative. It's only semi-quantitative. So if you find an absorption peak at 270 48:38.010 --> 48:44.670 nanometers, and it's just a little bump, it means you've got a modest amount of easy water. 48:45.410 --> 48:54.350 And if it's a sharp peak, which I've seen in some waters, spring waters, not all, but some, 48:56.070 --> 49:04.910 actually, it was demonstrated to me by the late James DeMeo, whose name you might know. 49:04.910 --> 49:15.970 I knew James. He sent me some scans of water, spring water taken from near his laboratory in 49:15.970 --> 49:22.530 the mountains. And the peak looked like the Empire State Building. It was really amazing. 49:22.750 --> 49:28.470 So this is not quantitative, but only semi-quantitative. It would be nice to find another method, 49:28.510 --> 49:31.550 but this is the method that we use on a regular basis. 49:32.170 --> 49:38.130 And so with bulk water, you'd have no peak at all, and it was at 280 nanometers, right? 49:38.610 --> 49:41.090 Well, 270, 280, something like that, right. 49:41.370 --> 49:47.050 And what about the infrared absorption spectra? 49:47.370 --> 49:56.310 Yeah, that will be different, but that's usually more complicated to carry out. And so 49:56.310 --> 50:04.190 we found no reason. Again, no time. There are so many things we're doing, so many things to do that 50:04.890 --> 50:10.510 we haven't pursued that, but that would be possible. Yeah. And there may be other ways to do it too. 50:11.230 --> 50:14.010 Well, what about just using suspended particles 50:16.990 --> 50:19.030 to visualize the exclusion zone? 50:19.850 --> 50:28.710 Well, it depends on the distribution of exclusion zone water. If it's concentrated in one area, 50:28.910 --> 50:33.790 yeah, then you could do it. But in order to be concentrated in one area, you have to set up 50:33.790 --> 50:41.790 something particularly designed to produce easy water concentrated in one area. In a beaker of 50:41.790 --> 50:50.710 water or a glass of water, that may not be the case. The regions of easy water may be scattered 50:50.710 --> 50:59.730 throughout the entire volume of water, in which case it would be more difficult to... 50:59.730 --> 51:03.530 It'd be a lot harder to evaluate what you're looking at with the distribution particles, 51:03.710 --> 51:10.210 right? Yeah, that definitely makes sense. When you have it adjacent to a surface or in a tubular 51:10.210 --> 51:15.770 surface, obviously it's much simpler because you know exactly where to look for the exclusion zone. 51:16.450 --> 51:23.630 Right. Okay. So it sounds like really doing the UV visible light spectrophotometry or absorption 51:23.630 --> 51:32.370 spectrophotometry is the way to go in terms of an easy and universally available reference standard. 51:33.240 --> 51:42.170 I think so. Yeah. And more needs to be done on that particular method. I would hope that one day 51:42.170 --> 51:45.750 we could make it quantitative. We're not there yet. 51:47.270 --> 51:54.590 Are you familiar with any biological assays being used to assess easy water, like using 51:54.590 --> 51:58.390 biophoton output, for example, like the people at Anilema do? 51:58.390 --> 52:07.070 I know the people at Anilema. And I guess I haven't seen how that can do it in a quantitative way. 52:07.190 --> 52:13.950 We don't spend a lot of time studying various devices that exist. I know we should, but 52:14.550 --> 52:20.950 you know, in Seattle the day has 24 hours, maybe where you thrive. 52:21.690 --> 52:29.150 Hey, I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do either. But I wasn't really thinking 52:29.150 --> 52:37.650 so much as evaluating their machines more of, you know, is there any standardized effects on 52:37.650 --> 52:42.150 biological systems that could be used as like a functional assay to 52:43.670 --> 52:49.210 show easy water? But of course, measuring biophotons is technically challenging, 52:49.210 --> 52:54.670 so it wouldn't be practical as a universal reference standard for that reason. 52:54.950 --> 53:01.450 But I want to also be able to tell people, like if you want to evaluate a device that you're using 53:01.450 --> 53:06.330 or that you invested money in or you're thinking about, one is you could ask, did they 53:06.970 --> 53:14.110 test the output of their device with UVVIS spectroscopy and can you see it? 53:14.930 --> 53:19.470 Or would you, you know, would it be important enough to people that you could send out a sample? 53:19.630 --> 53:24.230 Because this is not an expensive test. You could, I'm sure, send it out to a lab 53:24.870 --> 53:29.390 and pay a modest fee for them to do it on some of your samples. 53:30.150 --> 53:35.750 Yeah, there is a sort of a service, a hydration foundation run by Jean Abria. 53:36.050 --> 53:41.150 She has the capacity to make this kind of measurement. And she doesn't particularly 53:41.150 --> 53:47.190 rather doing it for commercial enterprises, but for research work and such, she can actually 53:47.190 --> 53:53.070 do this kind of experiment. But in response to the point that you brought up just a moment ago, 53:54.230 --> 54:01.410 are there any biological markers that can be used? And actually, there is one. There's a guy, 54:01.590 --> 54:08.970 a Russian, who I met briefly. He's passed since 10 years ago. He's using the refractive 54:08.970 --> 54:16.270 index of a cell. And he demonstrated that the more easy water you have, the higher the refractive 54:16.270 --> 54:22.650 index. And I guess the reason for that is that easy water, four-phase water, has a higher density than 54:22.650 --> 54:28.970 ordinary water. And so the refractive index is higher. And he could actually demonstrate that 54:28.970 --> 54:34.810 healthy cells versus unhealthy cells, there's a difference in refractive index. So that would 54:34.810 --> 54:42.230 be another approach. What was he using as the reference to compare that? How did he know which 54:42.230 --> 54:50.790 cell had more easy water? Well, he took cells that were healthy cells and others that were 54:50.790 --> 54:56.170 struggling in some way. I can't remember the issue that was plaguing those cells, 54:56.910 --> 55:03.390 but they were definitely not healthy cells. He measured the refractive index of the two of 55:03.390 --> 55:09.550 them. He found the difference. And he actually referred to easy water or fourth phase water. 55:09.750 --> 55:16.870 He called it, quote, fourth water. And I'm really sad that he's not around anymore to 55:16.870 --> 55:23.550 continue those experiments because they looked really promising. So that would be another, 55:24.870 --> 55:29.930 tentatively, another approach. He was an expert. Right. And that's similar to the 55:30.490 --> 55:36.170 research on resting membrane potentials that show that the magnitude of that potential is diminished 55:36.170 --> 55:42.250 in certain disease states of the cell. Right. Because that probably could be another marker for 55:42.250 --> 55:52.190 the degree of structuring of the water in that cell. Well, you actually are alluding to the 55:52.190 --> 56:00.790 paper that we're writing right now about that very issue. And I think if you were to read the 56:00.790 --> 56:07.470 paper, it's in process right now. You might have some criticism of it. But yes, absolutely. 56:09.410 --> 56:15.170 And I'll just say a couple of words. The electrical potential of the cell, we all know 56:15.170 --> 56:20.490 it's negative and healthy cells, it's typically between 50 and 100 millivolts negative, 56:20.490 --> 56:25.870 which means that the cell has an excess of negative charges. Now, the conventional view 56:25.870 --> 56:33.270 is these negative charges are brought about by membrane pumps and channels. And I've argued 56:33.270 --> 56:41.390 in several venues that it's simply wrong for many, many reasons that idea is wrong. You 56:41.390 --> 56:45.670 can take a jail just like the inside of the cell, no membrane, no pumps, no channels. 56:45.670 --> 56:51.370 It has the same electrical potential as the cell. We've measured it, others have measured it. 56:52.650 --> 56:56.470 Just like, listen, you're experimenting using the algae cell walls 56:57.890 --> 57:03.990 and establishing the membrane potentials also. I'm always referencing that with respect to this 57:04.550 --> 57:10.490 issue because we don't need ATP as the source of energy. In fact, there's not enough ATP 57:10.490 --> 57:16.290 to drive this process. Correct. That's what Gilbert Ling found. There's not enough energy. 57:17.310 --> 57:22.630 When he did his experiments, the assumption was that it was only one pump called the sodium pump. 57:23.070 --> 57:28.110 Now, there are hundreds of thousands. So you don't have enough energy to run one pump. It's 57:28.110 --> 57:33.450 hard to argue that you've got enough energy to run hundreds of them. So I think that idea 57:33.450 --> 57:38.110 is wrong. So the question is, well, why does the cell have a negative electrical potential 57:38.110 --> 57:43.370 if not for pumps and channels? It's simply filled with easy water, negatively charged easy water. 57:44.270 --> 57:49.070 In order for the cell to function properly, the cell needs to be filled with easy water. 57:49.670 --> 57:54.990 If it's not filled with easy water, it can function as well as it can with a full complement 57:54.990 --> 58:01.230 of easy water. The electrical potential will be more modest. It won't be as large in magnitude 58:01.790 --> 58:09.430 as if you have a lot of easy water. I think it's simple as that. So the argument that I 58:09.430 --> 58:15.550 put forth is a little more extensive than that, but it's based essentially on that health corresponds 58:15.550 --> 58:22.050 to a full complement of easy water, robust negative electrical potential, which the two are the same, 58:22.250 --> 58:28.350 more or less. One is a reflection of the other. If you have less easy water in the cell, 58:28.350 --> 58:33.650 the cell can function as well, and the electrical potential will not be, the magnitude will not 58:33.650 --> 58:40.670 be as large. That's some of the essence of what we're working on right now. 58:42.530 --> 58:51.570 Doesn't sound like I'm going to disagree with this paper, Gerald. But we're a little bit limited 58:51.570 --> 58:56.510 on time, so I want to get to wrapping up. But for me, there are two major things to 58:56.510 --> 59:02.530 consider here. One is, we know from other work that you've done experimentally that many of the 59:02.530 --> 59:10.910 modern chemical poisons have a deleterious effect on easy and probably on the membrane potential, 59:11.770 --> 59:17.270 and probably that's one of the central causes of much of the illness. I don't want to explore 59:17.270 --> 59:22.470 that further other than to say that, but the other question I think is a little bit more 59:22.470 --> 59:29.170 philosophically interesting and also something that I've raised many times in my own content, 59:29.790 --> 59:40.710 which is that if we don't need ATP for energy, and in fact, all of the theory around the high 59:40.710 --> 59:47.290 energy phosphate bond and all that is really just a story that doesn't have strong empirical 59:47.290 --> 59:55.150 evidence to support it. In your opinion, what is the main source of energy for our bodily function? 59:56.670 --> 01:00:03.070 That's a great question and a really important question. You allude to the fact that 01:00:04.110 --> 01:00:12.950 the evidence that is all ATP is compromised. The classical study by Lippincott, I think, 01:00:12.950 --> 01:00:21.370 1941 indicated that ATP has a high energy phosphate bond, which is the supplier of the 01:00:21.370 --> 01:00:28.150 energy. Well, there have been several papers that challenged that, including a paper by 01:00:28.150 --> 01:00:34.330 Morales and Podolski several decades later, two guys who I knew pretty well because they were 01:00:34.330 --> 01:00:40.490 in my former field, which is muscle contraction. These are very competent people and they found 01:00:40.490 --> 01:00:47.730 there is no high energy phosphate in ATP. There were several other papers that came after that 01:00:47.730 --> 01:00:56.290 that again challenged the idea of ATP. They've not been followed up for reasons that I could 01:00:56.290 --> 01:01:03.530 speculate on, but it raises a question. Who's right? Is Lippincott correct in his assessment 01:01:03.530 --> 01:01:07.910 or are the challenges correct in their assessment? There are two points of 01:01:07.910 --> 01:01:13.630 view that are contrasting with one another and we don't know which one is correct. They desperately 01:01:13.630 --> 01:01:22.570 need follow-up to find out. Now, we're proposing another source of energy, electrical energy. 01:01:23.150 --> 01:01:28.930 We don't know the extent to which electrical energy applies, although I mentioned earlier, 01:01:29.530 --> 01:01:34.670 there is one system in the cardiovascular system where we're pretty confident it does 01:01:34.670 --> 01:01:44.190 apply and probably it may apply in more situations than just that. We don't have the bandwidth to 01:01:44.820 --> 01:01:52.190 discuss all of that at the moment. Gerald, I think this is where I would also think that you 01:01:52.190 --> 01:01:59.650 would go, but this electrical energy that you're speaking of, does it come from the infrared 01:02:00.210 --> 01:02:07.210 light irradiation? Does it come from the chemical electrical energy in food, like in proteins? 01:02:07.810 --> 01:02:12.470 You mentioned the negative charge of proteins may be driving the structured water inside the 01:02:12.470 --> 01:02:21.030 cell. Do you have ideas like that, the primary source? Well, you mentioned two of them. 01:02:21.970 --> 01:02:26.450 One of them is certainly infrared energy because we have so much evidence that 01:02:26.450 --> 01:02:31.450 infrared energy, which is freely abundant all around us. The original source is the sun, 01:02:31.550 --> 01:02:36.990 but everything is generating infrared energy. You can demonstrate that in a dark room. You 01:02:36.990 --> 01:02:41.470 can't see anything and you whip out an infrared camera, which is like a regular camera, but the 01:02:41.470 --> 01:02:46.230 sensor is sensitive to infrared wavelengths and you get a beautiful picture of everything around 01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:56.430 you in the dark, which means that everything around you is generating infrared energy. It's 01:02:56.430 --> 01:03:02.990 is there all the time because that appears to be the main, but not only a source of energy. 01:03:04.330 --> 01:03:11.910 It could be that we get a modest amount of our useful energy from electricity, or it could be 01:03:11.910 --> 01:03:18.870 that we get all of our energy from that source. We don't know yet, but both are possible. 01:03:20.290 --> 01:03:24.610 Now, one more thing about related to this I want to ask because 01:03:25.570 --> 01:03:32.350 when you were talking about charge, I thought about the ground because we have the earth is 01:03:32.350 --> 01:03:36.810 negatively charged and the atmosphere is positively charged. I believe we have an 01:03:36.810 --> 01:03:43.690 electrical gradient. If you take a tank of water or a vessel of water and put it 01:03:44.410 --> 01:03:53.650 underground, will it become structured due to that charge? Also, what if we lived or slept 01:03:53.650 --> 01:03:59.050 underground? I'm not sure if you're aware of some very interesting research about species of 01:03:59.050 --> 01:04:04.850 animals and insects that are very similar to each other, but one variety lives underground, 01:04:05.110 --> 01:04:10.530 one lives above ground, and the underground living variety lives much, much longer. 01:04:11.230 --> 01:04:18.130 I'm well aware of it. In fact, I already wrote a chapter in a forthcoming book. I got three books 01:04:18.690 --> 01:04:22.310 waiting for my son, the artist, who have enough time to illustrate them. 01:04:23.350 --> 01:04:31.130 Yeah, it's fascinating. Fascinating. Absolutely. I was exposed to that when I saw 01:04:31.130 --> 01:04:39.130 termite mounds in South Africa on a safari, not knowing what they were. I asked the driver, 01:04:39.130 --> 01:04:43.810 the guide, and he was astonished that I didn't know that those are termite mounds. The queen, 01:04:44.030 --> 01:04:49.810 who stays underneath this great big pile of earth, lives for 40 or 50 years. 01:04:51.030 --> 01:04:58.250 The other termites who go out do their thing, they live for a few months. I found since then 01:04:58.810 --> 01:05:04.010 other species. Now, this is an area of scientific study. I had known about it so 01:05:04.010 --> 01:05:12.070 that the ones who live in caves underground live much longer. If you think about why is this 01:05:12.070 --> 01:05:17.390 the case? Well, there are two possible reasons. One reason is that the earth is negatively charged, 01:05:17.610 --> 01:05:22.130 and if we live underneath, you're getting a constant infusion of negative charge from the 01:05:22.130 --> 01:05:26.750 earth, and that negative charge builds easy water, keeps you healthy, keeps your cells 01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:34.910 functioning. The other disadvantage of living above the earth, like we live, is that we're exposed 01:05:34.910 --> 01:05:41.450 all the time to cosmic energy, which consists of alpha particles and protons, which are positively 01:05:41.450 --> 01:05:48.690 charged. We're bombarded perpetually by positive charge, and positive charge is 01:05:48.690 --> 01:05:54.930 anathema for us. We're negative, basically, if you pardon the expression. We can't just 01:05:54.930 --> 01:06:01.770 reverse polarity, huh? Yeah, we can't reverse polarity. We got to remain negative. We're 01:06:01.770 --> 01:06:12.270 compromised by bullets of cosmic energy that are impacting our lives. It may be that these 01:06:12.270 --> 01:06:20.590 factors charge, essentially, could be really important in longevity. Now, Gerald, this is 01:06:20.590 --> 01:06:25.890 fascinating. Of course, when I first heard you talk about this, I was trying to plan out, 01:06:25.990 --> 01:06:32.190 how could I dig myself an underground bedroom to live in connected to the rest of my house? 01:06:33.830 --> 01:06:40.310 But here's something maybe a little bit more esoteric. Negative charge is what we need to 01:06:40.310 --> 01:06:48.450 thrive and survive, yet the word negative, which is negative charge, it's not negative 01:06:48.450 --> 01:06:52.670 or positive in the lay meaning of the word. It's just there are two different charges, 01:06:53.590 --> 01:07:00.030 and they interact with each other as opposites. But we need negative charge for health, yet 01:07:00.770 --> 01:07:10.050 if we're negative, that has connotations of bad things. Positive is what would work against 01:07:10.050 --> 01:07:14.590 our health, yet we want to have positive things in our life. Do you think there's any 01:07:16.150 --> 01:07:21.290 significance to that kind of inversion, the way we look at it? 01:07:21.690 --> 01:07:27.550 Well, the guilty party is Benjamin Franklin, who declared that electrons are negative. 01:07:27.870 --> 01:07:30.870 If he said electrons are positive, we'd be in much better shape. 01:07:31.950 --> 01:07:44.570 So I'll just point out that Benjamin Franklin was a high-level freemason, if that has 01:07:44.570 --> 01:07:52.970 the different charges, as something more neutral and not judgmental, because I'm just 01:07:52.970 --> 01:08:00.030 thinking if we want to attract negativity to us for our health, we don't want to attach the wrong 01:08:00.030 --> 01:08:07.050 kind of negativity. You're so right, Andy. You're brilliant. I think you should be the one who 01:08:07.050 --> 01:08:10.830 introduces that. All right. Well, I think I just did. 01:08:12.930 --> 01:08:18.990 Gerald, before we wrap up, could you just tell the folks a little bit about your new book, 01:08:19.050 --> 01:08:24.190 and we're going to have the link to pre-order the book below in the show notes as well? 01:08:24.370 --> 01:08:30.210 Sure. Various phenomena we see every day. We think we understand them, like gravitation, 01:08:30.210 --> 01:08:36.950 like how birds fly, how planes fly, whether we find anomalies in every one of our 01:08:36.950 --> 01:08:42.550 understandings of these diverse phenomena. We sweep them under the carpet, thinking, 01:08:42.750 --> 01:08:47.710 well, someone eventually is going to figure them out. We're not going to be bothered by them, 01:08:47.890 --> 01:08:53.090 like gravitation, for example. Why is it that the gravitational force in the summer is stronger 01:08:53.090 --> 01:08:58.090 than the winter? You may not have known that, but it's reported by a respectable group. 01:08:58.090 --> 01:09:05.070 Why is there an oscillation in the gravitational force that has periodicity of a day and a month? 01:09:05.370 --> 01:09:10.090 These don't make sense, but we don't really think about that very much. In terms of weather, 01:09:10.910 --> 01:09:16.190 who's the person who turns on the cloud and drops the water? And why does the water drop 01:09:16.190 --> 01:09:21.570 in little droplets? And why does the cloud float to begin with? It's water. We know that 01:09:21.570 --> 01:09:26.790 if you take a pair of the water and turn it over, it falls to the ground, but the cloud doesn't 01:09:26.790 --> 01:09:33.670 always. So these are phenomena not understood. Well, I try to bring new understanding, 01:09:34.270 --> 01:09:38.850 and new understanding is based on charged forces. To the extent that I'm successful, 01:09:39.110 --> 01:09:44.770 it's for the reader to judge. If I didn't think I was successful, I wouldn't publish it. 01:09:45.370 --> 01:09:53.750 So does this include the fact that the observation of gravity could be explained by 01:09:54.770 --> 01:10:02.350 electrical gradients? Yes, exactly. It's an electrical effect, I argue. 01:10:03.810 --> 01:10:12.590 And you have to see whether you buy my arguments. And I deal with practical stuff. Also, 01:10:12.590 --> 01:10:18.230 how do fish swim? Fish is scared, it's in the river, it darts upstream, not downstream, 01:10:18.790 --> 01:10:26.450 with speed that's astonishing. It could sit in the stream facing upstream in a mighty current 01:10:26.450 --> 01:10:31.690 that's going downstream without any obvious motion. Right, just hovering. Yeah, how does, 01:10:32.490 --> 01:10:38.550 yeah, how does this- I can't do that, Gerald. I think, Andy, that you're more talented 01:10:38.550 --> 01:10:43.470 than you give yourself credit to. No, I'll get thrown around by that water. 01:10:46.370 --> 01:10:52.510 Well, so, I mean, sailing, for example, I got to mention that for those who are sailors, 01:10:52.730 --> 01:11:00.270 you think you understand sailing, but they're a sailing boat called Ice Boat. And they're used 01:11:00.270 --> 01:11:05.450 in northern climes if you're in Scandinavia, so you know about them. Well, they can go 01:11:05.450 --> 01:11:10.590 into the wind, into the apparent wind, five degrees off the wind, which is essentially going directly 01:11:10.590 --> 01:11:16.590 into the wind. It's like, if I take a fan and blow it on you, instead of moving backwards, 01:11:16.810 --> 01:11:22.510 you move toward the fan. Yes, Gerald, I've always been like, I learned how to sail in college on 01:11:22.510 --> 01:11:27.390 the Charles River in Boston. And I remember that there are some boats you can get even three 01:11:27.390 --> 01:11:35.050 degrees straight into the wind. Really? And that's actually your fastest sailing angle. 01:11:36.610 --> 01:11:42.210 Yeah, the ice boats go 100 miles an hour. But I mean, if you can sail with different angles, 01:11:42.510 --> 01:11:48.490 right? Depending on if the wind's behind you in front of you. But that angle that you would think 01:11:48.490 --> 01:11:54.610 would move you the opposite direction is actually the fastest way forward in some of these boats. 01:11:54.970 --> 01:12:00.750 Well, you've got to explain it. It doesn't make sense, right, based on hydrostatic drag for it. 01:12:00.750 --> 01:12:05.350 Absolutely doesn't make sense. And I try to explain what doesn't make sense. 01:12:06.950 --> 01:12:11.810 So well, this is the kind of book that I'm going to really eat up and probably 01:12:11.810 --> 01:12:18.190 read it in one sitting, just like the water. You're great, Andy, you're amazing. 01:12:22.330 --> 01:12:29.050 Well, that's what mostly what what the book is about. And also, why doesn't the atmosphere 01:12:29.050 --> 01:12:43.430 blow off? And what turns the earth? If it turns. Well, so you're alluding to flat earth. Well, 01:12:43.490 --> 01:12:49.910 stationary earth like the Michelson Moorley experiment. But nevertheless, I mean, we, 01:12:50.290 --> 01:12:55.710 you know, certainly the mainstream, whichever, you know, observation they claim, they don't 01:12:55.710 --> 01:13:01.390 have explanations that add up for many of these things. And I can think of many other examples 01:13:01.950 --> 01:13:05.230 that you didn't mention. And I bet some of them are even included in the book. 01:13:06.570 --> 01:13:09.150 So remind us what's the title of the book? 01:13:09.870 --> 01:13:16.210 Charged is the main title, colon, the unexpected role of electricity in the workings of nature. 01:13:16.430 --> 01:13:21.610 Fantastic. Charged the unexpected workings of electricity in the workings of nature. Definitely 01:13:21.610 --> 01:13:28.450 get excited about that book. And I'll be talking about it more once I take it in, I'm sure. 01:13:28.990 --> 01:13:34.790 Gerald, it's been really a pleasure to have this discussion. I've learned a lot today. And of 01:13:34.790 --> 01:13:42.550 course, many, many new questions have arisen as as we hope, you know, to move forward in the 01:13:42.550 --> 01:13:47.930 future. Thank you, Andy. Thanks for the opportunity. It's been my great pleasure. And see you soon. 01:13:47.930 --> 01:13:54.890 Even if you're doing your best to live clean, you're still being exposed from off gassing furniture 01:13:54.890 --> 01:14:01.950 and plastics in your food to synthetic fibers, personal care products, and even medical imaging 01:14:01.950 --> 01:14:08.890 procedures, especially fat soluble chemicals. These toxins don't respond to your average detox. 01:14:09.310 --> 01:14:15.130 They settle deep in your tissues. And you need the right tools to clear them out. That's why 01:14:15.130 --> 01:14:22.190 I created the ultimate detox protocol, a free 30 day roadmap that teaches you a serious 01:14:22.190 --> 01:14:30.110 nature based detox using pine, targeted nutrition, and a focused daily plan. You'll choose the 01:14:30.110 --> 01:14:36.590 cleansing diet that fits your needs, support your elimination pathways and take action against 01:14:36.590 --> 01:14:42.250 the toxin load that's been holding you back. Many people who've done this protocol have 01:14:42.250 --> 01:14:48.610 reported major improvements in energy, focus, digestion, and even long standing symptoms. 01:14:49.090 --> 01:14:54.210 They thought they'd have to live with forever. Unfortunately, I can't share the full scope 01:14:54.210 --> 01:15:00.530 of results people have experienced using this protocol, not on this platform. If I did, 01:15:00.670 --> 01:15:06.990 the video would surely be taken down. But trust me, it is incredibly powerful. 01:15:06.990 --> 01:15:12.750 Download it for free at the link in the show notes. Your health is your responsibility. 01:15:13.530 --> 01:15:19.950 And this is the best place to start. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the next True 01:15:19.950 --> 01:15:20.790 Health Report.