WEBVTT 00:00.400 --> 00:06.920 undetected when it's custom is expected. I'm flirty with my terminal, AV won't get rejected. 00:07.300 --> 00:13.820 Leveled up like Mario, many stories like a mansion. Coins pay me menero, I don't need an introduction. 00:14.720 --> 00:24.260 Dr. Wi-Fi, I inject IVs. No KYC, no IVs, I just crack APs. Starbucks, Kroner, Mickey D's. 00:24.900 --> 00:32.480 Shit, I burn her land when I say my Wi-Fi is free. No identity, I could say I play a part. 00:32.960 --> 00:39.900 I switch the game, like packets on a frame. Hoodie on my head in some comfy black jeans. 00:40.360 --> 00:47.300 Laying hometown, but I got wide access dreams. More than basic, my style fucking drastic. 00:47.300 --> 00:54.640 Like an in-it script, I'm everlasting. I'm ever running and no, I don't get tired. 00:54.820 --> 00:58.640 On tracks, I'm a train. On the web, I make a sales raise. 01:05.670 --> 01:12.070 What up Angelantes? I'm very happy to be here with one of my favorite figures in the entire 01:12.070 --> 01:16.750 crypto space, the CEO of Edge Wallet, Paul Pui. Paul, how are you doing today, sir? 01:17.550 --> 01:21.050 Doing well. Thanks for having me, Rafael. It's been a while and so I'm glad to 01:21.050 --> 01:24.770 finally make contact and be able to share latest insights in the crypto space. 01:25.270 --> 01:33.650 So we are going to have a summit, a virtual summit that anyone can attend. It's at tcbsummit.com 01:34.530 --> 01:39.370 and the subtitle of this summit, of this virtual summit coming up September 12, 01:39.790 --> 01:43.790 Friday, September 12 will be What Matters Most in Crypto. And so 01:44.910 --> 01:49.510 when I first thought about What Matters Most in Crypto, obviously we all think about, 01:49.510 --> 01:55.230 you know, technical analysis about the markets and how they're going, but when you really get 01:55.230 --> 01:59.270 down to What Matters Most in Crypto, the first thing that came to mind is like Edge Wallet. 01:59.670 --> 02:03.910 And it's the truth because it's, in my opinion, one of my favorite wallets is, 02:04.010 --> 02:09.090 it's the wallet I recommend people from the jump. I have no affiliate partnerships with Edge. 02:09.450 --> 02:13.590 I keep the way I interact with the commercial side of the space clean 02:14.830 --> 02:20.270 because that's how I want to keep my mind as objective as possible. 02:21.210 --> 02:25.470 And What Matters Most in Crypto is your privacy and your security. And Edge Wallet has really 02:25.470 --> 02:33.970 taken a step beyond the normal interface to give you that security. Today I want to talk 02:33.970 --> 02:39.390 to Paul about the rest mode that the Edge Wallet now features. And I also want to talk about 02:39.390 --> 02:45.790 the privacy embedded within the options given within the Edge. There's an Edge exchange. 02:46.590 --> 02:53.130 Edge is an exchange as well. It has swapping features within it between cryptos. And I want to talk 02:53.130 --> 02:58.370 about the privacy and security features of that as well. How are you doing, Paul? 02:59.030 --> 03:03.350 Doing great. Yeah, this is great. A long time coming to be able to go into these kind of 03:03.870 --> 03:08.390 details that the nuanced details that make for great discussions as opposed to just kind of 03:08.390 --> 03:13.530 what's the whiz bang, you know, latest shiny object in the crypto space. So thanks for having 03:13.530 --> 03:19.570 me on this and having this discussion. You know, something that really 03:21.950 --> 03:27.270 gets me thinking a lot about what you guys have done in Edge is the fact that you guys 03:27.270 --> 03:32.430 start off as accountants and emphasizing an accountants aspect to the wallet infrastructure 03:32.950 --> 03:41.890 where people can plug and play their balances into a spreadsheet like QuickBooks, 03:42.010 --> 03:45.350 straight from the Edge Wallet. I thought that was, how about we start there? 03:46.690 --> 03:52.250 Give us a little background as to why that was the beginning of Edge and why that is at 03:52.250 --> 04:00.910 the forefront of everything that you guys do. Yeah, that was the functionality of what I 04:00.910 --> 04:07.630 said at the very 1.0 release of our initial app, Airbits, which I think back in 2014 when we met 04:07.630 --> 04:10.870 and at the time our original app was Airbits and already had that functionality. 04:11.490 --> 04:14.550 And so the functionality is such that when you send or receive a transaction from somebody, 04:15.470 --> 04:20.770 you know, this is a digital payment method. We should be able to digitally save data 04:20.770 --> 04:25.970 as to what that transaction was for. Are we able to tag the transaction? Hey, that was from 04:26.690 --> 04:31.570 Raphael or, hey, I bought some coffee. You know, the legendary Don't Buy Coffee with Bitcoin 04:32.150 --> 04:35.910 narrative that the Maxis like to say. But you know, you want to be able to know what this money was for. 04:36.630 --> 04:40.630 Cash, it's digital cash. Cash, it's a pain in the ass, right? Once you give out a $5 bill, 04:40.770 --> 04:44.490 it's like, what the hell, where did the money go? Where did my stash go? But because we're in a 04:44.490 --> 04:48.650 digital world, it should be relatively easy to have the same tools in front of you that 04:48.650 --> 04:52.490 can track the transactions. And so you could not have to figure it out later and remind 04:52.490 --> 04:56.850 yourself, but right in the moment, right when you create that transaction or receive it, 04:57.250 --> 05:01.910 you can tag it. But we cared a lot about privacy. So we didn't want to just fold in like what you'd 05:01.910 --> 05:07.050 see with like QuickBooks Online and, you know, Quicken and all of the other financial tools 05:07.050 --> 05:11.370 which aggregate all that data into a central custodian. And so they can figure out how 05:11.370 --> 05:16.290 people are spending money and sell that data. Instead, we wanted to use full encryption 05:16.290 --> 05:21.610 of that information and backup and synchronization between your devices like it is a cloud app. 05:21.610 --> 05:27.030 But with the privacy that the crypto community cares about. And so that is one of the core 05:27.030 --> 05:31.890 fundamental features and edge. You know, when you send money, there's like three different things 05:31.890 --> 05:36.530 you can tag in the transaction. One is who is the person that you sent money to or received 05:36.530 --> 05:41.910 money from? And you can select it from your contact list. And funny thing is a lot of people 05:41.910 --> 05:45.830 go away, you're asking for access to my contact list. You know, in the app it has to say, 05:45.930 --> 05:50.490 you know, would you like to give us access? You don't have to. But if you do, nobody 05:50.490 --> 05:55.830 sees the contact list, but you, right, it's the app on your phone, not the cloud, not Edge, 05:55.890 --> 06:00.150 not me, not my co-founders, not any of our staff that can see your contact list. It's just to, 06:00.170 --> 06:04.130 you know, auto complete the tagging of your transactions. And then you could mark 06:04.130 --> 06:12.930 a category, right? Is it income, income from, you know, selling something? Or is it expense, 06:13.330 --> 06:17.690 travel, expense, food and dining, that kind of stuff? Or is it a swap? Is it an exchange 06:17.690 --> 06:22.230 from one asset to another? You could tag that as the category. And then you have a general notes 06:22.230 --> 06:26.650 field where you just type notes about the transaction and all that searchable as well. 06:27.030 --> 06:32.270 So you're like, hmm, when did I send funds over to RawFail? Type in a RawFail. Boom, there it is. 06:32.390 --> 06:35.510 Oh, that's how much I sent them. And here's the transaction ID. And I can send it over to you. 06:35.770 --> 06:40.930 So all that is metadata of a transaction. And it's all encrypted, all private and 06:40.930 --> 06:45.070 synchronized. So it gives you that feel of a cloud financial app without being the 06:45.070 --> 06:50.250 surveillance cloud financial app that a lot of people are used to. And so that is the accounting. 06:50.410 --> 06:53.670 Now, why did we get there? Because I used to do some accounting, right? I've worked in small business 06:54.310 --> 06:58.250 and did accounting for a restaurant, not really accounting, bookkeeping, you know, as a general 06:58.250 --> 07:02.390 manager. And so when you start doing those things, you start appreciating being able to just know 07:02.390 --> 07:08.090 where your money went. You know, and so I used that inspiration and put it right into our app 07:08.090 --> 07:13.670 because I wanted to do it. And so to this day, Edge uses Edge itself for all of our crypto 07:13.670 --> 07:18.110 transactions. And therefore, we can tag the transactions and know how we spent our money 07:18.110 --> 07:22.110 and categorize it into our P&L and, you know, balance sheet appropriately. 07:23.390 --> 07:26.710 Awesome. That's pretty cool. And so, 07:28.610 --> 07:32.870 so you not only created a crypto wallet, you created also a swapping service within it. 07:33.070 --> 07:37.150 Let's talk about that, this swapping service within it. I know you guys are 07:37.150 --> 07:42.850 start off as a wallet, then you now are really emphasizing, no, we're more than that. 07:42.850 --> 07:47.230 We're like an ecosystem. Let's talk about that. What does this ecosystem offer the user? 07:48.170 --> 07:53.230 So, I guess less of an ecosystem. Ecosystem is pretty general term. And one of the things that 07:53.230 --> 07:58.310 I guess I've kind of disagreed with the industry on is that wallets or, you know, 07:58.590 --> 08:03.870 self custody apps, because sometimes a fully custodial service calls them self a wallet. 08:04.010 --> 08:08.010 And they're basically a crypto bank. But, you know, a self custody app like Edge 08:09.090 --> 08:14.690 should have its focus and be good at a specific task. You know, that's what they always say to 08:14.690 --> 08:20.190 to startups, right? It's like, have some focus, have an MVP, and be good at the thing that you 08:20.190 --> 08:23.350 want to be good at. And so, our original app AirBits was very focused on payments. 08:24.150 --> 08:28.070 That was what it was really good at. But unfortunately, in the crypto world, 08:28.370 --> 08:31.950 you know, especially Bitcoin, payments just didn't become a thing, not in time for us to be 08:31.950 --> 08:36.010 a sustainable company. So, we pivoted. It will be. No, absolutely, it will be. 08:36.010 --> 08:38.710 And I'm very excited for that. Now in the way people expect. 08:39.450 --> 08:43.510 And maybe by the time when it happens, you know, maybe maybe AirBits comes back, right, 08:43.550 --> 08:49.190 as a payments app. But we pivoted to building an exchange focused app because we noticed that a 08:49.190 --> 08:53.410 lot of people were still speculating on crypto with some payments, but speculating on crypto 08:53.410 --> 08:56.990 and they were using centralized services to do that because they had all the features that 08:56.990 --> 09:02.710 they wanted. Easy onboarding with just a regular account, no key management, ability 09:02.710 --> 09:08.070 to buy and sell from bank account credit card and as well ability to convert crypto to and from, 09:08.070 --> 09:13.790 you know, dollars, other fiat to crypto and as well to different cryptos, right, crypto to crypto, 09:13.850 --> 09:19.310 Bitcoin, ETH, Monero, you name it. And so, we wanted to bring that experience that people had 09:19.310 --> 09:25.450 in a centralized exchange into the self-custody world where you own your own funds, 09:26.090 --> 09:30.390 you control your own money, and you have a higher level, a much higher level of privacy. 09:30.390 --> 09:35.050 And so, that's kind of what we define ourselves as. You can call it a trading wallet, an exchange 09:35.050 --> 09:40.530 wallet, you know, or, you know, self-custody exchange, many different ways to phrase it. We've 09:40.530 --> 09:45.130 even debated internally what should we call ourselves, like what is the product. But in the 09:45.130 --> 09:49.150 end, yeah, a lot of people know this as a wallet, but it has a very rich exchange functionality, 09:49.410 --> 09:54.710 right? And we connect to over a dozen different back end either exchange partners or decentralized 09:54.710 --> 09:59.290 exchanges to give you that user experience you would get with a fully centralized custodian. 10:02.630 --> 10:09.810 So, what do you think of, you know, given how rich the EDGE ecosystem is, 10:12.070 --> 10:18.850 I can't help but to ask you, it would make sense to me that someone could use the EDGE wallet as 10:18.850 --> 10:24.510 a point of sale system for their business because it's like someone has a mom and pop shop 10:24.510 --> 10:28.110 and they want to take crypto as payment, just hey, tell them, hey, just download the EDGE 10:28.110 --> 10:33.370 wallet because it has accounting features within it to, you know, track and trace the, you know, 10:35.370 --> 10:39.230 where funds come in, everything ready to go to put into QuickBooks for them. So, 10:39.710 --> 10:44.510 what is your thought about using the EDGE wallet as a point of sale? 10:45.450 --> 10:51.330 You know, I'm going to be honest, I'm sure Tim will hate that I'll say this, but it works. 10:51.890 --> 10:58.330 It's not ideal, right? The user experience isn't ideal from a point of sale point of view. 10:58.830 --> 11:03.150 And a point of sale is one thing I have been pitching to have somebody build a point of sale 11:03.650 --> 11:08.090 that really hits all the marks for like the past several years. I'm trying to almost recruit 11:08.610 --> 11:14.210 people interested to create another startup around building a very like high caliber open source 11:14.210 --> 11:20.430 fiat and crypto plug-in module friendly point of sale. EDGE is not that right now. 11:20.430 --> 11:23.930 Now, EDGE can be a part of that. Like our infrastructure, our SDK can be part of that point 11:23.930 --> 11:30.870 of sale, but I've been a merchant in a physical exchange environment. And what I know about 11:30.870 --> 11:34.370 point of sales is that they're very, sometimes they're very specific to the industry, 11:34.370 --> 11:38.210 meaning is it a restaurant, is it a gym, is it a nightclub, blah, blah, blah, blah, 11:38.210 --> 11:46.930 or is it on the web? And you do need a much more custom-made UI for point of sale. 11:47.470 --> 11:53.230 No, so for EDGE, it might take a few taps just to get to the QR code to show someone to receive 11:53.230 --> 11:56.490 money. Because if you notice, you ever use the centralized exchange at Crackin' or Coinbase? 11:57.170 --> 12:02.130 How hard is it to get to a QR code to deposit money? It's a bunch of taps, right? Because 12:02.130 --> 12:05.970 that's not what you generally do in exchange. You deposit once and then you trade, right, 12:06.150 --> 12:09.110 back and forth, back and forth. You link your bank once and then you go back and forth, 12:09.190 --> 12:12.930 back and forth. It's not a send out of the exchange, send into the exchange, send out, 12:12.930 --> 12:18.210 send in. And so you can't do everything really well. You have to focus on what you do. So EDGE 12:18.210 --> 12:23.090 is focused on making it easy to obviously buy, sell, and trade. There are some hidden features 12:23.090 --> 12:26.150 in EDGE, and maybe we can cover those little hidden features that make it easy to spend and 12:26.150 --> 12:30.850 receive, right? But they're not obvious. So from the viewpoint of a point of sale, 12:30.950 --> 12:33.150 it can't work. And there are some people that use EDGE as a point of sale. I want to 12:33.150 --> 12:36.790 porkfest a bunch of people using EDGE. It works great from that point of view of like, 12:36.890 --> 12:41.230 I just need to receive money. But a point of sale typically now, if you look at the big 12:41.230 --> 12:46.690 behemoths that are point of sale products like the squares and the clovers, they have a full 12:46.690 --> 12:51.870 like inventory management menu system. You know, it tallies all the items that you know, 12:51.910 --> 12:56.330 it's like tap, okay, I want a coffee, then I want a muffin, blah, blah, all right, steak and egg. 12:56.450 --> 13:01.470 So boom, there's your total adds tax. And it also does the payment processing, 13:01.590 --> 13:08.550 or that be crypto dollars or whatnot. And so that complete experience is a point of sale. 13:08.550 --> 13:14.130 And so that's what I really want to see in our industry is a crypto and fiat friendly point of 13:14.130 --> 13:21.090 sale that can overtake the squares and the clovers and be open source. So it's relatively free to 13:21.090 --> 13:26.070 use and expandable. So we can add whatever payment methods in whatever country you're at. 13:26.450 --> 13:31.850 And so that's what I'd say is a longer term thing. But for now, crypto isn't in a lot of 13:31.850 --> 13:34.450 point of sale. So people just have to use a separate app. And in that sense, yeah, 13:34.450 --> 13:40.570 edge from a mom and pop can work great. Yeah, I mean, you're very professional, 13:40.570 --> 13:45.610 because I come from the days that we were trying to pitch wallet dot dad's to. 13:46.290 --> 13:52.070 Yeah. So like, you know, I'm living in Wonderland right now. I'm like, where am I? 13:52.210 --> 13:58.990 You know, it's beautiful. The crypto ecosystem is so beautiful now. It's like, it's so 13:58.990 --> 14:03.330 accessible, you know, so it's much more accessible. We're still have a long ways to go. 14:03.330 --> 14:08.050 It became accessible in ways I wouldn't have expected. And it's still inexpressible, 14:09.310 --> 14:15.390 accessible from the viewpoint of the stuff that I actually don't care too much about, 14:15.550 --> 14:20.150 meaning like using your Scott trade and E trade account to go and buy ETFs, right? 14:20.250 --> 14:26.050 Like that's pretty accessible, but that's barely crypto to me. And so that isn't 14:26.050 --> 14:29.950 what I was expecting to be at in 10 years after, 11 years after I got involved. 14:30.590 --> 14:35.290 Same here. But it was still not very accessible from the viewpoint of I can't just walk down 14:35.290 --> 14:39.670 a street and use crypto at any, you know, Tom Dick and Harry merchant, you know, 14:39.690 --> 14:44.290 or for most things, even online, I can't. It's gotten a little bit more with like 14:44.290 --> 14:49.910 gift cards and things like that refill. And, you know, even some services like XMR Bazaar, 14:49.930 --> 14:54.490 I've actually found an amazing vendor on XMR Bazaar hats off to Doug Tumen 14:55.270 --> 14:58.690 for putting that project together. I found an amazing vendor for 14:59.930 --> 15:03.370 tallow potato chips here in San Diego. And they take, and they take Manero, 15:03.470 --> 15:06.930 they're big fans of Manero, Manero QR code right on their website. 15:07.750 --> 15:11.470 And they deliver it right into our office. And so we have a bunch of them in our snack bar here. 15:11.890 --> 15:17.270 And so a little bit more, but I was expecting, you know, it would be 15:18.470 --> 15:22.430 maybe at least as popular as the discover card as a payment method, you know, 15:22.430 --> 15:29.570 which I can nobody uses anymore. Yeah, we're all, we're all on the same page in that regard. 15:29.670 --> 15:33.670 It got hijacked, but I know I was hoping that some crypto would have taken its place to get that kind 15:33.670 --> 15:39.630 of adoption, you know, but not that within the hijacked world of that take took over, 15:39.830 --> 15:43.310 you know, if you like, if you see something like a digital currency group, 15:43.730 --> 15:46.670 I don't mean to talk bad about it. Did you ever take funding from them? 15:46.670 --> 15:51.010 No. Okay, good. Okay. Okay. Digital currency group is pretty much 15:51.010 --> 15:57.410 an arm of mastercard. So like, and they fund a lot of the crypto space. If not, 15:58.350 --> 16:02.370 if you go to crunchbase.com and you just follow the money as to like, 16:02.630 --> 16:07.270 who these crypto entities took their money from, you're like, Oh, okay. Well, it's like, 16:07.290 --> 16:12.650 obviously they don't, they don't want to compete with the fiat. Exactly. It's obvious. 16:13.410 --> 16:16.170 Look at like, in a lot of the news outlets and crypto 16:17.290 --> 16:22.830 are owned by them. So coin desk owned by a digital currency group, you have, 16:23.590 --> 16:27.530 no, no, sorry. Used to be, I think they got sold. They got sold, I believe it's owned by 16:27.530 --> 16:32.330 the founders fund. The founders fund has an off branch, which I think is called bullish 16:32.330 --> 16:37.990 ventures and bullish ventures bought out coin desk. So it's Peter Thiel 16:38.930 --> 16:44.350 that runs, that essentially runs coin desk now. So like, everywhere you look at crypto now, 16:44.490 --> 16:49.310 yeah, obviously this is co-opted, running technology to the establishment that they 16:49.310 --> 16:53.550 have to kind of like, Whoa, what's going on there crypto kids? Slow your roll. So, 16:53.910 --> 16:58.510 I mean, we're in a good place where they have to like, take an active, they have to embrace 16:58.510 --> 17:03.830 crypto. They're no longer fighting it or denying it. But we have to definitely emphasize 17:03.830 --> 17:09.310 these P2P technologies that are native to crypto that they kind of want us to forget, 17:10.370 --> 17:13.550 which I find funny, right? Because like, they'll never be able to create 17:14.230 --> 17:20.050 P2P technology that we native Bitcoiners and crypto enthusiasts know it's possible. 17:20.670 --> 17:24.070 Don't you find that funny that like? It's funny, but it actually makes, 17:24.190 --> 17:25.890 it makes sense though. If you think about it, they're like, Oh yeah, 17:25.910 --> 17:29.570 sure, we're pro crypto, we're pro crypto, and we can get the big headlines, 17:29.570 --> 17:34.910 but they're going to be pro one aspect of crypto, right? Just that one sliver aspect 17:34.910 --> 17:39.490 and not mention anything about anything else like from the payments point of view, 17:39.570 --> 17:42.350 the privacy point of view, the encryption, you know, like they don't talk 17:42.350 --> 17:46.690 Monero as being like, Oh, groundbreaking, great technology because they don't want us 17:46.690 --> 17:51.130 paying with it because that is the true disruptive nature. Once you're paying with it, 17:51.130 --> 17:56.930 you now achieve that true accessibility. You also achieve privacy. If you use a privacy 17:57.510 --> 18:02.670 protocol like a Monero or a pirate chain, Zcash, and so they don't want us using those pieces 18:02.670 --> 18:07.330 because of the most disruptive pieces of them all. Using it as an investment, 18:08.030 --> 18:11.770 yeah, it's just like any other stock. Sure, go ahead, you know, get an ETF and 18:11.770 --> 18:16.870 or invest in strategy. That's not going to disrupt the world. It's not going to change 18:16.870 --> 18:21.950 the world the way I think Bitcoin was originally invented to do. But it makes, 18:21.950 --> 18:26.830 it makes the narrative, it completes the narrative. Yeah, that quote unquote pro crypto, 18:27.430 --> 18:31.310 you know, granted, it's better than being completely anti crypto, right? That's worse 18:31.310 --> 18:33.910 where it's like, we don't want payments. We want you to own it. We don't, you know, it 18:33.910 --> 18:37.690 should be illegal, blah, blah, blah, shut down any company that tries to promote it. 18:37.910 --> 18:43.230 It's better than that. But I think people should make sure they're aware 18:43.230 --> 18:47.650 that it's not the complete picture and still fight for the complete picture of everything 18:47.650 --> 18:56.090 crypto can bring. You know, what I see in the horizon coming is the banksters that are 18:56.090 --> 19:03.390 hijacking Bitcoin, that are trying to hijack Bitcoin and all of crypto, they are going to push 19:04.930 --> 19:10.030 carbon credits, for example, tyrannical initiatives as if it were crypto 19:10.030 --> 19:14.290 developments or crypto innovation. And I don't know if you've seen this, but like 19:14.290 --> 19:24.130 MasterCard is now pushing the agenda on carbon credits, where carbon credits will be tracking you 19:24.130 --> 19:29.610 on your MasterCard. This is a pilot that they've already put out and it's something that 19:30.210 --> 19:37.250 it's on its way. And then I see entities within the Bitcoin BTC ecosystem embracing MasterCard. 19:38.610 --> 19:42.450 It's like, okay, I see what's going on here. The syllogism, 19:43.010 --> 19:50.010 you know, gives me the conclusion that they're going to push tyrannical initiatives 19:51.050 --> 19:56.590 through MasterCard, for example, and they're going to call it BTC innovation. What are your thoughts 19:56.590 --> 20:01.650 on that? No, I saw this coming for a while where, you know, are we transacting Bitcoin? 20:01.830 --> 20:05.750 Are we using Bitcoin? If someone swipes a card and it moves a Bitcoin balance 20:06.230 --> 20:12.430 from one account to another, you know, just like I can have a debit card and that 20:12.430 --> 20:18.030 what if that debit card held a Bitcoin balance? And when you go to your point of sale, it actually 20:18.030 --> 20:22.330 gives you a Bitcoin amount, you know, in sats, because that's kind of cool, right? So it's in sats 20:22.330 --> 20:27.490 and then you swipe your card and you're like, I paid with Bitcoin. But did you? Did you actually 20:27.490 --> 20:31.690 use the peer-to-peer network? Absolutely not. Right? This is, it's exactly the same 20:31.690 --> 20:37.490 payment rails with all the same fundamental limitations, right? The same censorship 20:37.490 --> 20:43.910 that our payments have had for decades. And all you did is search and replace USD for BTC, 20:44.590 --> 20:50.290 right? That you gained nothing from that. Well, one would argue, well, that means I can hold 20:50.290 --> 20:54.790 Bitcoin now. I don't have to like convert it to dollars and the merchant is receiving Bitcoin. 20:55.710 --> 20:58.970 And that is the number go up play. It's the hottest the investment play, 20:59.070 --> 21:04.350 but it's not a payment rail. It doesn't circumvent a lot of the restrictions in payments 21:04.350 --> 21:08.510 that have existed over the over the many decades that we've had digital payments. 21:08.910 --> 21:14.150 And so, yeah, I don't think it's, it's not transformative the way I think Satoshi really 21:14.150 --> 21:20.830 envisioned. So it's a step in the, in a direction, it's a slightly better direction, 21:21.090 --> 21:25.170 you know, and I could see, you know, Mastercard really, really making big waves within the 21:25.170 --> 21:28.490 Bitcoin community of saying, yeah, you can now pay with Bitcoin via Mastercard. 21:29.550 --> 21:33.810 But I think people are forgetting the, you know, what the end goal really was there. 21:34.350 --> 21:39.110 You know, the good news is, is that our technology being peer to peer 21:39.650 --> 21:42.970 will always be superior to whatever they have to offer the market. 21:43.490 --> 21:49.170 Whatever they offer the market will always have a centralized player, which is themselves that 21:49.170 --> 21:54.810 which they intrinsically have to is in their nature to position themselves 21:55.410 --> 22:01.950 as the eavesdropper between Alice and Bob. And so, but we are well, the beautiful thing 22:01.950 --> 22:08.410 here is, is that we will always have the ability to create superior technology because 22:09.270 --> 22:16.930 we embrace the P2P infrastructure that Satoshi gave us fully. So that's, that to me is good news 22:16.930 --> 22:22.110 knowing that they can never and will never be able to co-op that environment that's 22:22.110 --> 22:27.010 native to the blockchain infrastructure itself. They can make you, they can move it away from 22:27.010 --> 22:32.850 the blockchain, which is like what they did with BTC, move the emphasis of networking and 22:32.850 --> 22:37.850 transacting away from the Bitcoin blockchain back to the banks. That's what they did at BTC, 22:37.970 --> 22:42.790 but they will never be able to actually compete at the level of 22:44.050 --> 22:49.150 finality, throughput, efficiency that the blockchain native environment gives you. So 22:49.730 --> 22:53.950 no, and especially privacy. Yeah. And I think now it's our job to co-op them now. 22:53.950 --> 22:57.890 Right. So they co-op Bitcoin. Now it's our job to co-op the financial system 22:57.890 --> 23:04.110 on payments. And I think one of the, I keep saying this big missing pieces is an open source, 23:05.410 --> 23:12.590 very accessible point of sale that really sweeps the rug from underneath, like I said, 23:12.630 --> 23:16.570 the squares and the clovers and the micros payment systems of the world. Because now you 23:16.570 --> 23:22.150 can just inject crypto into that merchant barely needs to deal with the difference whenever 23:22.150 --> 23:30.250 your consumer pays. And now we actually create a fully censorship resistant ecosystem. That's 23:30.250 --> 23:35.830 the ecosystem I think that we're in need of. And the pieces can come together. It's totally doable, 23:36.050 --> 23:39.810 just there haven't been enough people to focus on just that because all of the excitement is in, 23:40.270 --> 23:44.470 well, let's just hold this thing and then make a company that it was worth a bunch of money 23:44.470 --> 23:53.110 because we just hold Bitcoin. Yeah. I think, I think, I think maybe you and I can drive this 23:53.110 --> 23:59.550 initiative. And I have a group of devs on standby that could help that are passionate about this 23:59.550 --> 24:04.990 technology. So yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah. And just if you guys want to be on top of this, 24:05.050 --> 24:11.090 maybe DM me or DM Papui, at a respective public accounts. And, you know, if you want to be 24:11.090 --> 24:15.050 part of this initiative, because this is something that I could get behind as well and support you 24:15.050 --> 24:23.870 in this endeavor, I think is also very necessary. Speaking of necessary, you guys created a duress 24:23.870 --> 24:27.370 mode, which I'm like, well, wait a minute, how does it work and what's going on? And that's 24:27.370 --> 24:31.930 really what piqued my interest to have this conversation with you. Yeah. Because 24:32.770 --> 24:38.330 for Bitcoin OGs like myself, this is our duress mode. And so 24:40.510 --> 24:45.990 tell us about it. What is it? What made you come to this realization that it was needed and 24:47.650 --> 24:53.490 how does it work on edge? Got it. So duress mode, some people don't even know what the word 24:53.490 --> 24:59.310 duress means, which, you know, duress means you're under duress, meaning you're kind of in a high 25:01.430 --> 25:05.450 forced environment where someone's forcing you to do something, right? That's your under duress. 25:06.430 --> 25:12.310 And my first encounter with a duress anything was a security alarm I had at home years back. 25:13.030 --> 25:17.130 And as well at a workplace that I was at where, you know, if you enter the building, 25:17.550 --> 25:20.830 the alarm starts beeping, beep, beep, beep, beep. You have like one minute to enter the pin, 25:21.130 --> 25:26.790 right, to disengage the alarm. And many of those systems have a duress pin or a duress 25:26.790 --> 25:32.590 mode where you can enter an alternate pin and it disengages the alarm. But it actually 25:32.590 --> 25:36.630 notifies authorities, right? So if you're, you have a gun to your head saying, Hey, 25:36.670 --> 25:40.550 turn off the alarm because I'm just trying to rob you at home. You enter that and cops show up. 25:40.790 --> 25:44.670 So whether or not you want them to show up or not is a side matter. Just know that's how 25:44.670 --> 25:48.990 the security systems work. And for a long time, we've asked ourselves, Hey, we would like to 25:48.990 --> 25:56.050 put something into into edge similar to that. And obviously, some of the more recent past 25:56.050 --> 26:01.630 couple of years, issues in our industry with people getting physically threatened, 26:01.630 --> 26:05.970 because they own crypto has been a rise. We said, Okay, we're going to let's just do this. 26:06.110 --> 26:09.450 Like, let's finally make this happen. It was quite a bit of engineering to get it to work. 26:09.770 --> 26:14.030 But what it effectively is is similar to that, that alarm, right, where there's a 26:14.030 --> 26:19.110 separate pin that you can enter to kind of unlock the alarm. There's a separate pin 26:19.110 --> 26:22.990 you can enter an edge to unlock your wallets and unlock your account. 26:23.970 --> 26:27.970 And what it does is it basically unlocks a sub account, you go into settings and edge and you 26:27.970 --> 26:32.990 say, I want to turn on the rest mode, you pick a different pin and boom, good. Now you go and 26:32.990 --> 26:39.230 log in with that other pin. That pin will open up a sub account that initially will just be empty. 26:39.590 --> 26:43.910 It'll just have a few wallets, you know, a Bitcoin, ether or whatnot, but they'll be empty. 26:45.110 --> 26:49.850 Those wallets, though, in the sub account will now start to show up in your main account as 26:49.850 --> 26:54.630 well. And you can use them for just like a little rinky dink spending, put a couple hundred dollars 26:54.630 --> 27:01.090 in there, buy some tallow potato chips from fat chips, you know, on XMR Bazaar, right, do your 27:01.090 --> 27:05.190 just normal day to spending, go to pork fest and I fricking buy anything you possibly want over 27:05.190 --> 27:11.990 pork fest, you know, and some maybe like Monerotopia and a Kopolko, go buy some cab rides with 27:11.990 --> 27:20.630 Monerot, all right, I remember that's what we had to use. But now you have this small set of wallets 27:20.630 --> 27:27.610 that show up under your duress account, that sub account. So on a normal basis, you can just use 27:27.610 --> 27:32.330 your regular pin, weird little Apple thing here, you can use your regular pin to log into your 27:33.470 --> 27:37.810 primary edge account, which has the bulk of your funds. But if you're ever under duress 27:37.810 --> 27:43.210 and someone's forcing, hey, give me the pin to your phone, or the pin to unlock edge or they want, 27:43.270 --> 27:48.870 just force you to unlock edge, you can enter the duress pin. That duress pin will only show that 27:48.870 --> 27:53.510 subset of accounts that you use for your little rinky dink spending. You know, and you don't have 27:53.510 --> 27:58.710 to enter your duress pin on a regular because those small sub wallets also show up in your main 27:59.210 --> 28:02.970 account. And if you remember with edge, every wall is a separate set of keys, 28:02.970 --> 28:08.750 all right, it's not one key that to rule them all. And so what the app is doing is it's creating a 28:08.750 --> 28:14.810 separate set of keys for your duress account, but then also making those keys accessible to your 28:14.810 --> 28:20.270 regular account for your normal day to day spending. At its heart, that's basically it. 28:20.510 --> 28:24.890 It's, you know, it's a duress pin. It's a separate pin that logs into a separate account 28:24.890 --> 28:31.490 that can have just a smaller set of funds. And so, you know, a thief can take those funds, 28:32.050 --> 28:37.050 but at least believe that, hey, okay, they're done and not affect the vast majority of your funds. 28:38.890 --> 28:42.710 So, I mean, the edge wallet has a lot of features, obviously, like this is, 28:45.290 --> 28:53.690 it's very comprehensive. For the interface of, I understand you can download 28:54.570 --> 28:58.030 Edge into an M1, M2, Mac. 28:58.550 --> 28:59.630 Now, you heard that. Yeah. 28:59.890 --> 29:06.790 Yeah. So how are you guys working on a desktop client that is more suitable? 29:06.990 --> 29:15.570 Or native. We would love to. It's definitely, it's always on our roadmap and always gets 29:16.090 --> 29:21.610 pushed aside by other things that necessarily occur primarily because a lot of blockchains 29:22.230 --> 29:28.310 are very, I don't call it, let me say it nicely, dynamic. I mean, they change and we have to update 29:28.310 --> 29:32.730 the app to keep up to date with a lot of different blockchains. And that has taken up a vast majority 29:32.730 --> 29:37.510 of our time such that it's hard for us to go and really hunker down and get that desktop app out. 29:38.030 --> 29:43.670 But know that it is a noted priority that we would really, really want to get out there. 29:44.190 --> 29:48.230 And in the meantime, yes, you're right. If you have an up-to-date Apple MacBook 29:48.230 --> 29:56.550 or Mac Mini or whatever from probably 2021 and on, you could likely put Edge on it, right? 29:56.610 --> 30:02.290 You can go to the Mac App Store and choose iPhone apps and install Edge. And I actually use it 30:02.290 --> 30:08.270 on my MacBook pretty regularly. I give hats off to Apple. We made no effort to make it work 30:08.270 --> 30:15.030 in any special way on a desktop, but it works very fluidly. You can do the two-finger scroll 30:15.030 --> 30:20.030 up and down and whatnot. It feels very fluid to keep. There's no keyboard popping up in your way 30:20.030 --> 30:25.830 because it's not really a phone. They did a great job with the kind of this simulation of an iPhone on 30:25.830 --> 30:32.410 a desktop to the point where if we could just get that on everything, like on the Linux and 30:32.410 --> 30:37.810 Windows and, you know, it's already on Mac or all the other Macs, we'd be pretty happy 30:37.810 --> 30:42.690 that that would be a great starting point. But unfortunately, it's only on those a subset 30:42.690 --> 30:45.650 of Macintoshes, but it works great. Give it a try. Let us know what you think. 30:46.250 --> 30:53.630 Awesome. Yeah, actually, I have it downloaded. I have to give it a go on the computer. So 30:55.690 --> 31:02.550 I understand that there is a feature within the Edge wallet that allows you to disable 31:02.550 --> 31:13.890 any exchange that requires KYCAML. We're at the TCV summit on September 12th. We're definitely 31:13.890 --> 31:16.990 going to go through everything regarding the Edge wallet. And we're going to go, 31:17.790 --> 31:22.790 he's going to show us exactly where to disable that. But if you could just keep, please give 31:22.790 --> 31:28.570 us a quick rundown on where to disable KYC exchanges. And is there something that 31:28.570 --> 31:35.130 you guys are making more apparent for the user? Yeah, so a little reminder on these 31:35.130 --> 31:41.150 quote-unquote KYC exchanges. So Edge supports both. This is for the sake of conversion of one 31:41.150 --> 31:46.850 crypto to another, right? So there's two kinds of exchange operations in Edge. One is a fiat on 31:46.850 --> 31:51.090 an off-ramp. This is like two and from bank account credit card. And then another is crypto 31:51.090 --> 31:56.350 to crypto. And those are two notably different interfaces in Edge. When you want to go crypto 31:56.350 --> 32:07.290 to crypto, we by and large very highly want people to be KYC free. But unfortunately, that option is 32:07.290 --> 32:13.130 not going to support every single asset in the world, right? Not every single crypto. So we've 32:13.130 --> 32:18.290 incorporated, I think, gosh, now maybe 15 to 18 different exchanges inside of Edge for crypto 32:18.290 --> 32:24.270 to crypto swaps. Many of them, about seven or eight of them, are still C5, meaning they're 32:24.270 --> 32:28.530 centralized companies. Now, many of them they do not want to do KYC. We talk to every single one 32:28.530 --> 32:32.390 of them. They definitely don't want to, but because they are centralized companies and they 32:32.390 --> 32:39.650 have to adhere to AML laws, depending on the transaction and its source and destination address 32:39.650 --> 32:45.350 and is it a no-fac address or the funds a few hops away from a potential malicious actor, 32:45.950 --> 32:51.470 they occasionally will have to do KYC on a transaction. It's a very small subset of 32:51.470 --> 32:56.030 the transactions that actually go through our system that would get KYC, but it does happen. 32:56.070 --> 33:00.810 It's happened to me, right? And so it can happen. And it's kind of like a frustrating, 33:01.030 --> 33:06.450 annoying thing when it does happen. And so with that, we've really focused all our effort 33:06.450 --> 33:12.190 into incorporating decentralized exchanges. So decentralized exchanges to none of them 33:12.190 --> 33:16.790 will KYC because they're a protocol, right? They can't KYC, right? They can't freeze your 33:16.790 --> 33:24.250 funds. Some of them may refund though. They may auto refund if they determine that a transaction 33:24.250 --> 33:31.150 comes from some illicit funds. This is known on ChainFlip. I don't know why my computer showed 33:31.150 --> 33:35.370 you the random memes here. I've got like the gestures enabled, I think. Let me turn those off. 33:37.190 --> 33:40.630 So some of them actually will where the miners, the validators of a decentralized 33:40.630 --> 33:44.290 exchange will actually have a black list of addresses and if transactions from those 33:44.290 --> 33:47.710 addresses come through, they just pop them right back. They just send them right back. 33:48.650 --> 33:54.070 The DEXs that we have integrated to my knowledge do not do that. So we have Thor Chain and Maya 33:54.070 --> 33:59.510 Protocol are the two big cross-chain DEXs that we have integrated. As well, we have DEX aggregators, 34:00.810 --> 34:06.610 Rango Protocol, Leify are two big ones that we've integrated, SwapKit as well. 34:06.610 --> 34:14.910 They can do not just cross-chain like bridging from Ethereum over to Solana, 34:15.130 --> 34:23.530 but it can also swap within a chain different tokens on that chain. I think Pepe to Trump, 34:24.230 --> 34:29.270 whatever. It can do a lot of that. All of that is through pure decentralized exchanges, 34:29.490 --> 34:33.270 decentralized bridges so that you don't have a central party that could freeze the funds and 34:33.270 --> 34:39.670 ask for KYC. What Edge does right now is it finds you the best price. So if a DEX can give you a 34:39.670 --> 34:43.410 better price, that's what shows up. If a C5 provider gives you a better price, that's what's going to 34:43.410 --> 34:47.890 show up. You can always change it though. So one little tip and edge is when you get your quote, 34:48.170 --> 34:53.150 there's a little button that shows you what the provider is and you can tap on that provider 34:53.150 --> 34:57.450 and it'll list all the other ones that could execute that swap. It'll show which ones are 34:57.450 --> 35:01.350 centralized exchange, which ones are decentralized exchange, and it'll show you the price 35:01.350 --> 35:06.950 difference between them all. So for those of you that would like a decentralized exchange, 35:07.250 --> 35:13.050 but you don't want to limit yourself because at times the price difference can be pretty notable, 35:13.250 --> 35:17.570 a few percent. This is a great option. So for every single swap, you can tap, you can look at 35:17.570 --> 35:21.690 all of the different options and it'll show this is a decentralized, this is not. 35:22.370 --> 35:26.250 You can say, oh, that price isn't too different. It's only like maybe 25 basis points. 35:26.490 --> 35:30.530 I'll choose the decentralized exchange even if it's not as good of a deal. So that is one 35:30.530 --> 35:36.650 way to answer. It's one way that you can choose a DEX, hopefully answering your question. That's 35:36.650 --> 35:40.830 one of the ways. Another way is to prefer decentralized exchanges and that you can go 35:40.830 --> 35:46.430 into the settings of the app and say, I prefer decentralized. Right now it's best price, right? 35:46.790 --> 35:52.710 But you can choose I prefer decentralized. What that means is regardless of the rate that you get, 35:53.170 --> 35:57.670 if a decentralized exchange can execute your swap, that's what's going to get chosen, 35:57.670 --> 36:03.090 but you'll still see all the other options if you tap on that little button on the quote screen. 36:03.810 --> 36:07.450 Then you can see all the other options. You'll always surface a decentralized exchange. That's 36:07.450 --> 36:11.350 what I have chosen in my account, right? I'm always using a decentralized exchange. 36:11.430 --> 36:15.170 By default, for always, it's the default. It's always be decentralized exchange. 36:15.250 --> 36:18.890 For the primary quote to always be a decentralized exchange. 36:19.270 --> 36:23.230 The primary quote. The primary quote, but you can always tap 36:23.730 --> 36:30.290 the little button on the quote screen and see all the quotes. That way you're not restricted. 36:30.550 --> 36:35.630 If ever you're like, okay, that's a primary quote, but maybe I want to see if there's any 36:35.630 --> 36:39.430 better prices and how much better they are, even if they happen to be a C-fi centralized 36:39.430 --> 36:45.430 provider, you can do that. That's what I call the second way is to prefer decentralized. 36:46.470 --> 36:50.650 The third way is you can really turn off all of the C-fi providers. It shows you in 36:50.650 --> 36:54.050 our settings. You go settings and you go to exchange settings. It'll show everything, 36:54.150 --> 36:57.190 all the decentralized exchanges, all the C-fi exchanges, and I'll have a little check, 36:57.470 --> 37:02.650 a little toggle switch on the right side. You can toggle whatever one's off that you don't 37:02.650 --> 37:09.790 want to use. Then you will not see any quotes from them no matter what. That's up to everyone 37:09.790 --> 37:13.370 to choose. Or you can turn off some C-fi providers. If you're like, I heard this 37:13.370 --> 37:16.810 one's pretty good, but this one's not, then I'm going to turn off some providers. 37:17.350 --> 37:21.070 If I feel like I don't want to take the risk of those providers so they might KYC me. 37:22.050 --> 37:26.430 And so any of them might, that's the thing is, any of them might, but some may have higher odds 37:26.430 --> 37:32.090 than others. And you can research which ones you think are better or worse than others and turn 37:32.090 --> 37:36.210 off the ones you don't want to use. You just won't see the quote at all. So those are the 37:36.210 --> 37:39.450 different levels of being able to set your preferences from the viewpoint of 37:39.450 --> 37:44.170 decentralized versus centralized exchange. Is it necessarily true that centralized 37:44.870 --> 37:51.470 exchange that requires KYC is actually cheaper? No. People have that misconception that they think 37:51.470 --> 37:58.190 will give me a cheaper rate, right? Not, right? Correct? Absolutely not. And especially not true 37:58.190 --> 38:02.530 because a lot of centralized exchanges are actually getting their liquidity from a decentralized 38:02.530 --> 38:09.330 exchange. So when you go to an exchange and you request a quote, you don't realize that 38:09.330 --> 38:13.490 they're just getting some money. They're actually executing that swap using a decentralized 38:13.490 --> 38:19.870 exchange, but they're taking a cut on top of that in addition to it. And so going directly to the 38:19.870 --> 38:26.390 X is going to end up becoming cheaper. So that's always my assumption because people kept telling 38:26.390 --> 38:33.070 me, well, I would get a better rate going through KYC and I'm loving it. You might. No. If anything, 38:33.490 --> 38:39.490 a decentralized exchange wouldn't, I don't think it would ever, a well-constructed 38:39.490 --> 38:44.050 KYC, a well-constructed decentralized exchange should function as a blockchain. 38:45.210 --> 38:47.970 Yes, it does. Exactly. And they do exactly function as a blockchain. 38:48.330 --> 38:52.910 There's no overhead of like paying, you know, lights and bills, right? 38:53.370 --> 38:57.430 You're paying for the validators though, right? So a decentralized exchange doesn't need validators 38:57.430 --> 39:01.050 and you have to stake and you have to reward them. So it's, there's still notable cost, 39:01.290 --> 39:04.970 but the biggest thing that actually impacts the rate you're going to get is the liquidity. 39:05.650 --> 39:09.370 So it's a real question. How much liquidity does Coinbase and Krakenav, if you want to go 39:09.370 --> 39:16.370 from dollars to USDC, I'm sorry, dollars such as USDC to Bitcoin or Monero. And then you have to look at, 39:16.390 --> 39:20.010 well, what's that equivalent liquidity look like on Thor chain or Maya protocol? 39:20.650 --> 39:27.690 And so the, the liquidity question is really, that's one of the biggest determining factors in 39:28.310 --> 39:32.010 how good of a price you're going to get, right? And there's some subtle technologies there that 39:32.010 --> 39:36.430 can improve or make it worse in the dex world. But in general, the more money that's sitting 39:36.430 --> 39:41.190 there liquid ready to go, the better price you're going to have than if there's barely any money 39:41.190 --> 39:46.650 sitting on the exchange. And that's true for both CFI, you know, centralized versus or and decentralized. 39:48.310 --> 39:57.930 That's awesome. What is geeking you out most in crypto right now? 39:59.350 --> 40:07.590 You know, interestingly enough, there's two things that I'm more geeking out on. 40:08.030 --> 40:15.010 One is the privacy protocols like Xano. I'm excited about confidential layer finally launching. 40:16.690 --> 40:21.710 And I'm geeking out about the potential of, you know, as much as I hate the dollar, 40:22.070 --> 40:25.510 I know it's a gateway, like I know that stablecoins are gateway drug into real crypto. 40:26.430 --> 40:31.430 And I'm excited and looking at all the different options of how we can get a true decentralized, 40:31.730 --> 40:37.610 not USTC, not Tether, you know, and people hate me for saying it's not even FUSD, right? 40:37.650 --> 40:42.010 Because that's the centralized stablecoin. But a true decentralized stablecoin off one of the 40:42.930 --> 40:48.770 programmatic block chains, EVM block chains and even the Bitcoin layer twos, right? And getting 40:48.770 --> 40:54.170 that script, right? If that, if that can be bridged, it could if we can do it there. 40:54.170 --> 40:59.510 And then bridging that into a privacy blockchain like Xano, right? And then getting that 41:01.290 --> 41:06.330 transactable, both in a cheap and a fully private way. That's one of the things that I'm like, 41:06.450 --> 41:10.710 I don't call it geeking out, but just very excited about, right? Because that really hasn't existed 41:10.710 --> 41:16.610 before. And with that existing, you can onboard the people that, you know, especially in like 41:16.610 --> 41:21.190 developing countries that aren't really too keen on the volatility of crypto, 41:21.190 --> 41:25.410 but are very big on the payments aspect of crypto, which is why Tether is so popular, 41:25.670 --> 41:31.330 you know, around the world is that it was, it was at one point cheap on the Tron blockchain, 41:31.370 --> 41:36.290 and it allowed developing countries access to a better, more stable currency than what they 41:36.290 --> 41:42.670 natively had. But now be able to do that with with a full level of privacy. That excites me. 41:42.730 --> 41:47.610 So that's that's one thing that, you know, I'm definitely excited about. And then as well, 41:47.610 --> 41:55.630 you know, being able to pause, I'm glad we're editing this thing. 41:57.830 --> 42:02.650 We have a TV in this room and someone just suddenly started streaming Spotify to it. 42:03.970 --> 42:28.610 One second. The world is too connected. Yeah, I think someone just suddenly 42:28.610 --> 42:33.190 clicked the wrong button on our, we have a little iPhone DJ iPhone to play music in 42:33.190 --> 42:37.810 the office. And I think someone clicked the output to go to this TV and suddenly just started 42:37.810 --> 42:46.210 blaring. Okay, TV off. Anyway, happy. It's like you guys have a really cool environment there at 42:46.210 --> 42:50.050 your headquarters. No, it's a fun spot. Yeah, definitely come by and visit. We'd love to have 42:50.050 --> 42:54.570 you. Yeah, I think we'll come visit. When is your next little, I know you guys have like 42:54.570 --> 42:59.190 conferences almost every month, like like meet up. Yeah, there's meetups. Yeah. Next one 42:59.190 --> 43:03.290 slated for the last Tuesday of August, but hasn't been posted. We're just getting confirmation. 43:05.050 --> 43:07.430 I don't want to leak who's supposed to come out because if it doesn't work out, 43:07.510 --> 43:11.110 it has to get pushed another month, people like Paul. But yeah, we have an exciting guest coming 43:11.110 --> 43:16.170 by close to the end of this month. So hope to get that out. Hopefully this week get it 43:16.170 --> 43:19.830 pushed out. But yeah, we've got other months available as well. So if ever you're in town, 43:19.930 --> 43:26.530 let us know. I'd love to have you. But getting back to kind of the stuff that I'm excited 43:26.530 --> 43:33.070 about. So yeah, one, the privacy for the stablecoins coming off a lot of the programmatic chains 43:33.070 --> 43:36.930 because you can bridge that now with confidential layer. And the two, I'm actually very curious 43:36.930 --> 43:44.270 of what happens to Bitcoin BTC with advent of its layer twos, right? Bitcoin by itself was kind 43:44.270 --> 43:48.970 of co-opted. It's layer one, lightning network, total co-opted, totally centralized, doesn't 43:48.970 --> 43:54.270 work. But does it actually have potential through its layer twos, both for privacy and for 43:54.270 --> 44:01.010 programmability in a way that is peer-to-peer, right? Like pure peer-to-peer, not dealing with 44:01.010 --> 44:07.590 like, oh, just put it into like liquid, you know, just federated or lightning network, 44:07.630 --> 44:12.590 which is going to, which is gravitating towards being totally centralized. And can we use that 44:12.590 --> 44:19.650 even for, even if it's not BTC for payments, but BTC to back a stablecoin that then gets 44:19.650 --> 44:26.370 bridged over onto Zano. And then we transact with a private Bitcoin. And so it opens up some 44:26.370 --> 44:31.850 interesting possibilities that I think are like, you know, I've been very critical of Bitcoin for years. 44:32.570 --> 44:36.790 This is what I think is its last hope to be competitive long-term. And if this doesn't 44:36.790 --> 44:43.770 work out, then yeah, I think it's really headed for notable trouble long-term. But this is 44:43.770 --> 44:49.530 one to keep an eye out on, both as someone that really champions a lot of its competitors, 44:50.350 --> 44:54.790 right? Like I championed a lot of the competitors, you know, like when Bitcoin cashed it forked, 44:54.810 --> 44:58.370 I'm like, okay, well, this is actually a more viable payment method. Monero is a notable 44:58.370 --> 45:02.730 competitor because it has significantly higher privacy. And then all the chains that are 45:02.730 --> 45:09.190 much more programmable are competitors. And if you think about it, the market cap or the, 45:09.310 --> 45:13.530 not the market cap, but the percentage of the market cap of Bitcoin plummeted when 45:13.530 --> 45:19.550 Ethereum came out, it was the first real competitor of functionality to Bitcoin. And that's where we 45:19.550 --> 45:25.710 went from like 90% of the market cap to like 50, 40%. Now we're serving around 60. That was right 45:26.330 --> 45:35.190 when Ethereum became like a notable currency in the sea of alt coins that were just fork, you 45:35.190 --> 45:40.870 know, like they're like Litecoin, Dogecoin, Monzacoin, blah, blah, blah, like all the coins 45:40.870 --> 45:46.130 was like copy paste Bitcoin and change it. Ethereum was one of the first ones that actually, okay, 45:46.170 --> 45:52.350 let's actually make something different in you. And so this is kind of the first time not the first, 45:52.490 --> 45:57.410 I mean, Bitcoin's had was at root stock, but they're a little behind on their tech, 45:57.410 --> 46:03.830 even though they are Ethereum based. This is like the first time a good amount of backing is 46:05.010 --> 46:08.990 really trying to create more functionality to Bitcoin that a lot of us have been wanting to 46:08.990 --> 46:14.930 see. And so keep my eye on that and see what really comes out of that, especially from the privacy 46:14.930 --> 46:23.510 realm, because there has been talk of like a privacy layer two on Bitcoin. So those are the two 46:23.510 --> 46:29.070 things I think I'm geeking out on since that's how you phrased the question. I personally think 46:29.070 --> 46:33.970 Ethereum was a step back, to be completely honest, because the UTXO model is superior to the 46:33.970 --> 46:41.450 account based model, in all aspects. So to me, Ethereum was almost like a side up to justify 46:41.450 --> 46:47.990 the hijacking of Bitcoin. You want to have fun podcast? Let's debate that. Let's debate that. 46:48.450 --> 46:53.670 Huge, because that makes fun for fun podcast, right? Can all just agree in an echo chamber. 46:54.110 --> 46:59.890 So Ethereum has huge, huge hurdles. Like its architecture has, I will not, I will definitely 46:59.890 --> 47:06.210 not argue that there are some major hurdles in the account based architecture, especially scaling it, 47:06.890 --> 47:14.350 right? Huge hurdles of scaling. Centralized eye of Sauron. This was developed by the banking 47:14.350 --> 47:19.610 system, actually, the account based model to keep it, so that's why all of the nodes share a 47:19.610 --> 47:24.790 global state. You can't scale in parallel horizontally with the account based model. 47:24.790 --> 47:31.130 And so Satoshi broke the mold by giving us the UTXO model. We can scale 47:33.030 --> 47:42.550 unboundedly, horizontally. The programmability of Bitcoin, in my opinion, is more a threat to 47:42.550 --> 47:49.390 the establishment than P2P currency aspect of Bitcoin. I think the P2P aspect of Bitcoin 47:51.510 --> 48:01.010 and jump starts and maintains and creates a capitalist meritocracy for Bitcoin's computational 48:01.010 --> 48:10.470 power. But Bitcoin's computational power, in my opinion, is more robust on chain than anything 48:10.470 --> 48:17.390 the account based world could ever give you, even including Solana. And I think that, well, 48:17.390 --> 48:26.750 I know that the, if you study who's actually, who are the brains behind the Layer 2 initiatives 48:27.710 --> 48:34.610 within BTC, they're all big blockers. And this all started when the lightning network, 48:34.690 --> 48:41.090 you very well said, could not scale, could not contain, could not really, you said the 48:41.090 --> 48:45.290 lightning network, you called the... A trend towards centralization. 48:45.510 --> 48:50.270 A trend towards centralization. A trend of funds, not nodes. Correct. 48:50.290 --> 48:54.470 So that's even worse. So I know most blockchains trend towards centralization of the nodes and 48:54.470 --> 48:58.410 the miners. That's just kind of natural. But this is, but the lightning network 48:58.410 --> 49:04.010 trends towards centralizing actual holding of funds. And that is the risk. It's not 49:04.010 --> 49:08.850 just centralization of nodes. And that's a big one. Like the liquidity problem is pretty large. 49:11.770 --> 49:17.970 The moment that kind of became very obvious in the market and the selling of the 49:17.970 --> 49:24.870 lightning network to VCs and the market became almost obsolete. It is obsolete because of what 49:24.870 --> 49:30.350 you just said and the routing problem and the hub and spoke dynamic within and all these 49:30.350 --> 49:38.090 issues that the lightning network has within it. Immediately, Bitcoin developers started turning 49:38.090 --> 49:44.550 to other aspects of Bitcoin. And they started looking for, they started now saying things that 49:44.550 --> 49:49.490 the most forbidden character in crypto history had been saying, Craig Wright, that Bitcoin is a 49:49.490 --> 49:54.810 Turing complete machine. And from that moment on, they started, I have screenshots where they're 49:54.810 --> 50:02.630 sharing and learning from Craig Wright about the Turing complete nature of Bitcoin. 50:03.210 --> 50:10.550 And here you have now the building out by SuperTestnet and Robin Linus of BitVM. 50:11.710 --> 50:17.230 This programmable nature of Bitcoin was highly influenced by S-Script, 50:17.510 --> 50:24.690 Jawe Lu and his team and the people behind him. Little do people realize that Jawe Lu 50:25.850 --> 50:30.490 really learned a lot about Bitcoin. It's not most about Bitcoin from Craig Wright himself. 50:31.410 --> 50:38.610 So you have all of these big blockers now influencing BTC. You have guys like Jawe Lu, 50:39.030 --> 50:46.050 now being the head of strategy for StarkNet, which is a layer two. So you have the guys 50:46.050 --> 50:56.770 from Unisats, which are also BSV native guys, running Fractal, the Fractal layer two. So you 50:56.770 --> 51:04.490 really see is a movement of people that have gone from a version of Bitcoin BSV that has been suppressed. 51:04.970 --> 51:12.210 But now that the market demands for there to be innovation in BTC, they saw an opportunity to 51:12.210 --> 51:19.790 move their efforts into BTC and make money by selling layer twos. But they all deep down know 51:20.500 --> 51:26.810 that these layer twos are only a step to an on-chain programmable Bitcoin. 51:27.970 --> 51:37.310 And this is why the core devs in BTC are, they read this movement in anticipation and they are 51:38.030 --> 51:44.070 engaging in what they call the great script restoration, which is to restore the op codes 51:44.070 --> 51:50.530 that they themselves took away from BTC. And yet in other words, what I read into that is that 51:50.530 --> 52:03.570 they're getting ready to scale BTC if BTC is ever threatened by another Bitcoin. And the problem 52:03.570 --> 52:10.250 here is that BTC is like they would be going against their own base. And that's what we've 52:10.250 --> 52:15.810 started seeing with infighting within the Bitcoin community. We're the Maxis that are now the Maxi 52:15.810 --> 52:20.690 A's and the Maxi B's and the Maxi C's that are disagreeing on things. And I predict this a while 52:20.690 --> 52:25.330 back, whether or not it leads to another hard fork we'll see. But at the end of the day, 52:25.330 --> 52:29.690 I want to, you know, maybe this gets a bit more technical for this discussion. But you know, 52:29.710 --> 52:33.230 he had mentioned, I think Ethereum was the step in the wrong direction or backwards. 52:33.780 --> 52:40.570 But the programmability of EVMs, Ethereum's, even Solanas that are not EVM, but are the global 52:40.570 --> 52:46.850 state that you're referring to. While it has the disadvantage of scaling, it is harder to scale. 52:47.250 --> 52:50.890 I will not say it's impossible to scale because there's some darn really sharp engineers looking 52:50.890 --> 52:54.450 at solving that problem. And there's some blockchains that appear to have solved 52:54.450 --> 53:01.670 that problem. It does give you the vision of true financial Legos. That's kind of one of the 53:01.670 --> 53:05.330 memes and narratives of Ethereum is that you have these financial building blocks 53:05.330 --> 53:10.570 and one building block can be used in another building block, can be used in another building 53:10.570 --> 53:16.310 block. Case in point example, you can create a stablecoin using a smart contract. That stablecoin 53:16.310 --> 53:23.670 can get deposited in a completely different smart contract to go and earn yield from someone 53:23.670 --> 53:30.350 borrowing that stablecoin. And your deposit into that smart contract and the yield that you 53:30.350 --> 53:36.290 earn can then be tokenized with an LP token that can then get deposited in another smart contract. 53:37.190 --> 53:42.590 The financial building blocks, those Lego pieces working together from independent contracts 53:42.590 --> 53:47.970 that don't have to know that each other exists, that's possible because of the global state of 53:47.970 --> 53:54.310 an EVM or similar type of protocol. And that's not possible with UTXO. So the UTXO has this 53:54.310 --> 53:57.690 great ability to scale. I don't doubt that at all. I give credit where credit's due. 53:57.690 --> 54:01.250 You know what I mean? Nothing's perfect. And so I give credit to UTXO because it can scale 54:01.250 --> 54:04.970 much better because you don't have to have a global state. I just know about this UTXO. I just 54:04.970 --> 54:10.270 have to know if that thing is spent or not. And you could subdivide the work of a network to say, 54:10.370 --> 54:14.110 hey, you deal with these UTXOs and you don't have to care about anything else. You deal with 54:14.110 --> 54:18.470 those UTXOs. You could shard UTXOs much more easily, much harder to shard global state. 54:19.530 --> 54:25.330 But the power of that global state is tremendous from the viewpoint of replacing 54:25.890 --> 54:30.710 a lot of the financial institutions that exist today. I think the block-fies and the Celsiuses 54:30.710 --> 54:34.130 that were centralized and offered the exact products I was just talking about, right? Being 54:34.130 --> 54:38.610 able to earn yield on your crypto, on your dollar, and be able to take out loans on your 54:38.610 --> 54:42.790 crypto, on your dollar, ability to create a stable coin that gets sent back and forth 54:43.690 --> 54:49.750 full programmatically and have all of them work together. That's what you really get 54:49.750 --> 54:53.870 from that global state. And that's powerful because it takes away the power from the 54:53.870 --> 54:57.830 centralized custodians that offer, try to offer those exact products, but do it fully centralized. 54:58.350 --> 55:04.110 KYC, sorry, you're not rich enough to join our club type of products. DeFi makes it possible. 55:04.110 --> 55:08.950 So I've always nerd and dorked out about DeFi. But granted, it has its shortcomings, 55:09.150 --> 55:16.510 i.e. some aspects of scale, for sure. But man, the things that you can bring in addition 55:16.510 --> 55:18.990 to payments, because payments is one piece of the puzzle, I think it's one of the most 55:18.990 --> 55:24.010 important pieces of the puzzle. But it's the foundation of what I call the financial 55:24.010 --> 55:28.970 stack. Just like there's a technology stack. Whenever people build apps and products, 55:29.090 --> 55:32.030 there's a technology, well, there's a financial stack. At the bottom is the money, 55:32.270 --> 55:37.210 next is payments. And then there's everything else on top of that. Payments is a fundamental 55:37.730 --> 55:41.930 important piece of that financial stack. But you need things above that because 55:43.090 --> 55:46.290 that's how the world operates. So we don't just simply hold money and send and receive it. 55:46.290 --> 55:50.610 We also have financial agreements between each other. And that's what DeFi is. And you need 55:51.330 --> 55:56.970 pretty strong programmability to be able to really impart good quality DeFi. And that's what 55:56.970 --> 56:01.970 programmable, fully programmable blockchains that have that global state kind of give you. 56:02.730 --> 56:10.130 Well, Paul, I agree with you. And because of what we saw with Ethereum, Bitcoin, 56:11.330 --> 56:16.550 Bitcoiners started asking these same questions. And they came to the realization that Satoshi gave 56:16.550 --> 56:22.470 us the mechanism to actually have that and the scalability at the same time. The thing with 56:22.470 --> 56:29.480 Bitcoin is that it's so mammoth that Bitcoiners just have to agree on what protocols that run 56:29.480 --> 56:40.740 on top of Bitcoin to use to have interoperable applications and tools. So that mindset, 56:40.980 --> 56:50.180 the mindset of how Ethereum was built in a way that was interoperable, that mindset has carried 56:50.180 --> 57:02.620 into Bitcoin building itself. So I honestly don't see that as an advantage in the Ethereum ecosystem. 57:02.880 --> 57:09.460 If anything, what I see really happening is that Ethereum forces you, forces the entire community 57:09.460 --> 57:16.720 because they do share a global state. It forces the community, the account-based model to marry 57:16.720 --> 57:29.300 a single, a specific protocol stack. Whereas Bitcoin, since it allows you to, since there's, 57:30.900 --> 57:36.660 you don't share a global state, there is more options. And within that optionality, 57:36.980 --> 57:43.280 you have to, within that optionality, now it's up to the community to decide 57:44.220 --> 57:53.420 what token protocols they prefer over others. So the biggest issue that we had in Bitcoin history 57:53.420 --> 57:59.440 was that we had so many options when we had BSV, when we had in BSV. That was honestly 57:59.440 --> 58:03.680 the biggest issue because there's so many infinite possibilities that everyone and their mama had 58:03.680 --> 58:07.940 their own token protocol. Whereas in Ethereum, it was really easy for that community to say, 58:07.940 --> 58:14.080 you know what, we're going to do ERC-20. And we're going to really develop the stack for ERC-20. 58:14.900 --> 58:21.060 You know, actually, Ethereum being account-based didn't make ERC-20 an easy standard because 58:21.060 --> 58:26.640 Ethereum has the same problem. ERC-20 is just a way of writing a contract. There is no token 58:26.640 --> 58:30.400 baked into Ethereum. People probably don't realize this, but Ethereum in no way, shape, 58:30.520 --> 58:37.340 or form knows anything about tokens. There is no token standard on Ethereum. The users 58:37.340 --> 58:42.600 and the developers of Ethereum created one and rallied around it. And why did they do that though? 58:43.120 --> 58:46.960 Why did they do that? The reason why they rallied around a standard is because 58:46.960 --> 58:52.980 by rallying around that standard, the standard token can then get used in other 58:53.580 --> 58:58.860 contracts that are not for tokens. And this is the inherent problem with the UTXO model, 58:59.100 --> 59:04.720 is if I create a token in the UTXO model and it's a fully programmable token, 59:04.720 --> 59:06.860 it cannot be used in someone else's contract. 59:08.380 --> 59:09.900 Yes, you can. 59:10.560 --> 59:13.480 To my understanding, you cannot. So, this is part of what we need to do a little bit of the 59:13.480 --> 59:20.120 research. If I create a token that is a stable coin that balances, that is held stable 59:21.380 --> 59:28.580 by like a MakerDAO equivalent, right? You deposit some Bitcoin, BSV or whatever, 59:28.580 --> 59:36.700 and then it mints a stable coin. That and the programmability of that stable coin of how you 59:36.700 --> 59:42.780 can then go back into the contract and then redeem the funds, that wouldn't be usable on a 59:42.780 --> 59:48.000 completely separate contract that someone else builds. That interoperability between the two 59:48.000 --> 59:54.200 is global state, right? That is global state. And that is what you don't get in the UTXO 59:54.200 --> 01:00:00.220 model is two completely separate programs being able to talk to each other, because UTXOs can 01:00:00.220 --> 01:00:05.380 only talk to their previous UTXO, their previous UTXO, their previous UTXO. They can't go and 01:00:05.380 --> 01:00:13.540 cross over between each other and without them being effectively kind of like the same owner, 01:00:13.780 --> 01:00:20.520 right? The problem that we had in Bitcoin in developing an understanding of Bitcoin 01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:28.420 programmability is that because we had the Bitcoin Civil War, a lot of the habits of thought that are 01:00:28.420 --> 01:00:37.300 particularly small blocker have carried over into even BSV development, where there is a necessity 01:00:37.860 --> 01:00:46.640 to still consider the need for having to create protocols that have to index the 01:00:46.640 --> 01:00:53.140 entire blockchain. But you don't really need that. And right now, there are modern protocols 01:00:53.140 --> 01:01:00.220 on BSV that completely do away with the need to having to index and run through the entire 01:01:00.220 --> 01:01:07.960 blockchain, because you don't have a global state. Actually, I'm going to have to send you two 01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:21.660 examples of a token protocols on BSV that don't need for you to index the entire blockchain anymore. 01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:30.480 And this is actually a very new revolution here, because even up to recent history, 01:01:31.460 --> 01:01:36.540 the bad habits of the way small blockers were thinking carried over into BSV, 01:01:36.540 --> 01:01:43.740 where when we had ordinals on BTC, BSV developers felt the need to create one set ordinals, 01:01:43.820 --> 01:01:50.380 which yes, you can program everything into one set. However, you're still dealing with the whole 01:01:50.380 --> 01:01:56.820 indexing thing. So even the architecture of one set ordinals was still small blocker in design. 01:01:57.640 --> 01:02:02.880 Right. You don't need to index the entire blockchain. You can just engage the blockchain. 01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:08.360 And I think one of them, I can't think of the two names right now off top of my head, 01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:11.280 but I'm going to find you those two token protocols and send them to you, 01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:14.680 so you can investigate them. And I really think that's 01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:24.500 that is testament of how much more there is to learn about Bitcoin, that just now 01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:30.080 people in BTC have begun to discover that Bitcoin is programmable to begin with. 01:02:30.640 --> 01:02:37.840 It's very programmable. But how the UTXO model engages within that programmability is something 01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:44.060 that a lot of the world is still just now beginning to discover. And I'm going to send you these two 01:02:44.640 --> 01:02:50.400 let's call them MVPs of what I'm demonstrating, what I'm referring to, so that you can see for yourself. 01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:55.540 Yeah, I'll definitely take a look at them. And I've never argued that the UTXO model 01:02:55.540 --> 01:02:59.380 isn't programmable. And I think it's more programmable than I originally realized back 01:02:59.380 --> 01:03:04.340 in like 2014, 2015. Same here. And I came to realization, yes, you can make it tour and 01:03:04.340 --> 01:03:11.880 complete as well. But the extent of my study shows that tour and complete programmable does 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:16.880 not mean that you can have programs that can talk to each other. Those are two very different 01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:21.020 things. It's kind of like, I think of the UTXO model as having a powerful computer 01:03:21.020 --> 01:03:30.880 on your desk, that can actually go ahead and create these programs. I think of the global 01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:34.380 state as having multiple computers connected to the internet that can actually talk to each other. 01:03:35.060 --> 01:03:38.800 Where my program and my computer can talk to your program and your computer can talk to another 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:45.380 program and someone else's computer. They're not siloed. And so tour and complete doesn't 01:03:45.380 --> 01:03:48.380 mean that these programs can talk to each other. It just means that you have if, 01:03:48.380 --> 01:03:54.020 then, else state within yourself and you can jump and conditionalize your execution. 01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:59.620 But the ability to take the output of that program and send it over to a completely different 01:03:59.620 --> 01:04:06.640 program elsewhere that someone else is executing, that's the piece that the global state gets you. 01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:14.660 At a heavy cost, though, I don't argue that heavy cost of scale. But capability, 01:04:15.200 --> 01:04:19.860 but the capabilities are the ones that I would argue. I'm open to being challenged on that. 01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:25.000 There's going to be great things you can build. There's still great things you can build. I think 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:29.760 that if you can build it on a UTXO model, definitely go for it. It's harder. It's for sure harder, 01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:36.000 but it's possible. But can you build something that is true interoperable between different 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.980 smart contracts that are launched independently that don't know anything about each other? 01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:50.840 I'm going to show you a demo that just came out yesterday of the MetaNet, which is Bitcoin 01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:55.800 as an internet on BSV. It just came out. I'm going to show it to you. 01:04:57.420 --> 01:05:02.760 It's a supercomputer. It's already functioning, dude. It's the MetaNet highway. I'm going to send 01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:07.720 you the demo that was just put out yesterday. And I want you to give me your honest feedback, 01:05:07.720 --> 01:05:11.580 please. We'll do. That's all we give each other, right? 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:16.420 I'm very excited about this stuff, man. Let me tell you, if there's something that geeks me out, 01:05:16.860 --> 01:05:22.720 is this conversation and my realization that because I was caught up fighting this 01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:27.800 civil war on what I consider really dumb aspects of Bitcoin, the really simplistic stuff, 01:05:28.540 --> 01:05:33.700 should we scale on change? Should we not? Kept us from learning more about what Satoshi 01:05:33.700 --> 01:05:40.860 gave us. What he gave us is jaw-dropping, man. I'm going to send you that demo that came out 01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:46.660 yesterday. I'm also going to send you another demo, which is another demo that actually just 01:05:46.660 --> 01:05:54.900 came out as well yesterday, which is on how to make sure that your phone communication 01:05:55.460 --> 01:06:04.140 is always P2P, because they tell me Telegram, they tell me what's app is encrypted, 01:06:04.740 --> 01:06:08.780 but how do I know there's not a backdoor and Zuckerberg is not listening to my conversation? 01:06:09.520 --> 01:06:17.820 It's like if you have a phone on a scalable Bitcoin that wallet-to-wallet phone call, 01:06:18.020 --> 01:06:24.300 I can cryptographically have encryption running on chain as well to protect our privacy 01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:30.720 and communication, but that point-to-point interaction from wallet-to-wallet without having to 01:06:31.580 --> 01:06:35.800 assures me that there's not an eavesdropper. I'm going to send you that as well, 01:06:36.100 --> 01:06:41.500 which is something badass, man. Okay, I'm open to hear. I'm sending you four things, 01:06:41.740 --> 01:06:47.500 the two wallet, pardon me, the two token protocols that show you that you don't have to 01:06:47.500 --> 01:06:52.380 index anymore, like that's just ridiculous. And the other thing I'm going to send you 01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:56.560 is the demo of the MetaNet, which is the internet, the Bitcoin as an internet, 01:06:57.680 --> 01:07:07.680 and also send you how P2P confirmation in communication is now possible. So I'm going to 01:07:07.680 --> 01:07:10.260 show you, send those four things to you when we're done with this call. 01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:12.540 I will check it out and let you know what I think. 01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:16.880 And if I'm wrong, call me out, please. I do not want to live in ignorance or 01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:20.860 an error. Please call me out. Same here as well. Cool, cool, cool, cool. 01:07:21.500 --> 01:07:31.180 So, yeah, so that's where I'm at. So you're also geeking out about stablecoins. And I want to ask 01:07:31.180 --> 01:07:36.420 you about your idea of this stablecoin that you have in mind. Going back to that conversation, 01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:43.300 you mentioned that you want a stablecoin that originates in a scalable blockchain, 01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:48.880 but how is that stablecoin pegged? I mean, I 01:07:50.860 --> 01:07:57.040 feel like stablecoins seem a little bit like not as trustworthy to me as something backed by 01:07:57.040 --> 01:08:02.560 something real, like a bank or even US treasuries, if you want to go status, right? 01:08:03.120 --> 01:08:07.360 I mean, yeah, I mean, if you think a bank and US treasuries are real, then sure. 01:08:08.620 --> 01:08:14.240 But so if you want privacy in stablecoin transactions, and I mean full, like, 01:08:14.240 --> 01:08:19.400 Monero-level privacy, not the kind of privacy a bank gives you where they don't tell your buddy 01:08:19.400 --> 01:08:23.000 your balance, but they know it and they know all your transactions, that to me is bank-level 01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:30.080 privacy. If you want real Monero-level privacy in a stablecoin, you will need a stablecoin 01:08:30.080 --> 01:08:35.000 that is fully algorithmic. I just don't see another way because if there is a counterparty, 01:08:35.500 --> 01:08:40.260 I always ask this question, right? If you go and create a stablecoin and you yourself hold 01:08:40.260 --> 01:08:44.660 the collateral, whether that's dollars, treasuries, gold, you know, I know there's people trying to 01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:53.260 create a gold stablecoin, and then you mint this thing and then it is bridged over into Zano 01:08:54.240 --> 01:08:58.760 and somehow deemed used for illicit purposes. And, you know, illicit is very subjective, 01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:03.100 right? When US things is illicit, other countries like that's our day-to-day ops, 01:09:03.750 --> 01:09:11.520 but whatever they de-malicit, do not expect that you'll get a knock on your door saying, 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:17.340 we would like to freeze those funds that are backing your stablecoin because they've been used to, 01:09:17.950 --> 01:09:26.260 you know, fund a poor family in Iran, right? I think you're almost certainly going to get 01:09:26.260 --> 01:09:30.800 the knock on the door, right? Or at least you definitely better think, you better expect to 01:09:30.800 --> 01:09:38.100 and be in a jurisdiction that you hope the big boys can't go after, right? And I would not use 01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:41.840 that stablecoin on a privacy chain because if it got, if the funds got frozen on the bridge, 01:09:42.020 --> 01:09:47.700 right, confidential error, right, then my stablecoin tanks in value, right? So, 01:09:47.860 --> 01:09:55.100 just because, you know, they don't like the privacy side, doesn't mean that they can't 01:09:55.100 --> 01:09:59.100 just simply freeze the transparent side because it's really the transparent coins 01:09:59.100 --> 01:10:03.180 that are backing the privacy coins that are backing the privacy coins, right? That's how a 01:10:03.180 --> 01:10:09.340 bridge works. It gets locked on one side, minted on another. And so, I sure as hell wouldn't trust 01:10:09.340 --> 01:10:14.420 a coin that has a, that's on a privacy layer and it's collateralized by a central entity. 01:10:14.940 --> 01:10:20.080 So, hence, we need an algorithmic coin. Now, a lot of people have like this knee-jerk like, 01:10:20.200 --> 01:10:25.420 oh, shit, not an algorithmic coin. We know we've been through Terra Luna, right? And 01:10:25.420 --> 01:10:29.100 everyone's got PTSD from Terra Luna. Everyone but Jeff Berwick. 01:10:30.100 --> 01:10:34.960 Yeah, because he bought it like $0.00, like absolute, caught the knife. Damn that guy. 01:10:36.140 --> 01:10:41.340 Hats off to him. Genius, genius. Yeah. Even he realized that everything in, even, 01:10:41.380 --> 01:10:47.000 even something going to zero can bounce off to zero. So. That was genius anyway. 01:10:47.260 --> 01:10:53.380 But anyway, so most, I was in the room as he was doing it. I'm like, I was almost in shock, 01:10:53.380 --> 01:10:58.240 like, because I'm inexperienced compared to him when it comes to investing in trading. 01:10:58.440 --> 01:10:58.560 He knows. 01:10:59.140 --> 01:11:04.560 But what a master class he gave us, man. Anyway, so for everyone else that still has PTSD 01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.240 and lost millions and whatnot, they're like, no, the Alago stable coins don't work. But 01:11:08.240 --> 01:11:10.840 what they don't realize, you got to look at all the different Alago stable coins 01:11:10.840 --> 01:11:15.360 and all of them have different pros and cons. And Terra Luna had one gigantic 01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:18.860 con, which is it's fully backed by a coin that had no other purpose, 01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:26.740 right? A coin that had no, had no a general adoption. I mean, no money has value just 01:11:26.740 --> 01:11:33.040 because a couple of people believe it has value. And so what, where they see that value, 01:11:33.060 --> 01:11:36.200 it becomes the question, do they see the value because, oh, it's like the digital 01:11:36.200 --> 01:11:39.460 gold, oh, because I can pay for things with, oh, because it's the gas for programmability. 01:11:41.060 --> 01:11:44.960 Luna had almost none of that. It has value because it's what backed a stable coin. 01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:51.180 And that's not what gives it value. That's what you do with it when it has value, right? 01:11:51.280 --> 01:11:53.900 When something actually has value, then you can back a stable coin with it. 01:11:54.100 --> 01:11:57.880 It doesn't have value because it backs a stable coin. That's the exact opposite, right? 01:11:58.380 --> 01:12:04.420 And so that was the intrinsic flaw with Luna is you had no utility in this coin first 01:12:05.080 --> 01:12:09.840 before you then go and back something else. And, and lover hate Bitcoin, 01:12:10.080 --> 01:12:14.460 there's enough people that love it to give it some value that could back a stable coin. 01:12:14.460 --> 01:12:20.680 And to some degree, even ETH has that. And so backing a stable coin with more stable assets. 01:12:21.380 --> 01:12:25.560 And then, of course, having significant over collateralization to make sure there's well 01:12:25.560 --> 01:12:31.720 more than what the coin would historically drop to, drop in volatility is kind of the 01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:37.860 necessary piece of the puzzle that we haven't really had or we have had, but people 01:12:37.860 --> 01:12:41.540 aren't aware of them. So there are stable coins like money on chain DOC 01:12:41.540 --> 01:12:47.120 that have been around for years since I think 7 2017 on root stock. 01:12:48.020 --> 01:12:51.420 And at least last I checked, I haven't checked in a few months, but it's held its peg. 01:12:51.940 --> 01:12:59.540 And it's backed by not just Bitcoin, but a few different financial primitives and incentives 01:12:59.540 --> 01:13:03.400 that motivate people to keep that thing backed and keep that thing pegged. 01:13:03.820 --> 01:13:07.740 And these are the things that I want to see bridged over because there's no central party 01:13:07.740 --> 01:13:10.420 that can freeze the funds, right? It's a pure smart contract. 01:13:12.120 --> 01:13:15.080 And admittedly, if it's just the stable coin, you're not trying to do 01:13:15.080 --> 01:13:21.040 Lego building blocks with it, right? It could be on Bitcoin script, right? It easily could be 01:13:21.040 --> 01:13:27.560 because it's just that. I only argue that the global state, if you want to make it 01:13:27.560 --> 01:13:30.080 Lego building blocks, but if you just want to bridge it into Xano, and Xano has no 01:13:30.080 --> 01:13:33.380 programmability either, right? It's just for payments, but super private. 01:13:34.220 --> 01:13:39.260 The source of that, that Algo stable coin, I'm still researching and looking at the 01:13:39.260 --> 01:13:43.580 different options and also discovering what has existed and that I just wasn't even aware of 01:13:43.580 --> 01:13:49.260 because everyone's just jerking off on USDC thinking that's like the end all be all, 01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:56.020 which I'm hoping it's just the beginning and it has its own end because we get to the real 01:13:56.020 --> 01:14:04.600 stable coins. The real stable coins. Yeah, there's definitely an opportunity there for a lot of 01:14:05.980 --> 01:14:11.620 people. Yeah, who's going to build it? Or who has? I just have things in my mind right now 01:14:11.620 --> 01:14:15.920 that I don't know if I should, if I can or should talk about because they may be private to some 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:22.180 people. I'll leave it to you then to decide on that one. Right, it's just, no, I think I'm 01:14:22.180 --> 01:14:25.400 not going to talk about it, but there are definitely a lot of endeavors out there 01:14:25.400 --> 01:14:33.780 focusing on trying to figure out what you're figuring out. And yeah, it's just, 01:14:34.580 --> 01:14:40.880 so you would see it, what would the peg be? What would be the asset that would you say 01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:48.120 Bitcoin, BTC would be the asset to algorithmically peg a proper stable coin? That would be like 01:14:48.120 --> 01:14:53.640 ultimate asset. I won't call it ultimate. It's what I call the best one right now. 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:57.620 The best one right now, yes. And it's been probably for the next five-ish years. 01:14:58.440 --> 01:15:05.620 And of course, if a protocol is fully programmable and dynamic and has 01:15:07.380 --> 01:15:11.900 probably governance tokens that can vote on what does back the coin, that can change over time. 01:15:12.860 --> 01:15:16.260 The thing that actually backs the coin can slowly morph. Much like dye, 01:15:16.260 --> 01:15:23.340 originally it was backed by ETH, had some aspects of maker token backing it, but it morphed, 01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:28.420 unfortunately in the wrong direction, right, where now it's backed by USDC, or at least partially 01:15:28.420 --> 01:15:34.560 backed by USDC. So in that same sense, like BTC is a pretty good option to back a coin today. 01:15:35.100 --> 01:15:41.060 That might not be the same in the future, but the contract, the chain that does the 01:15:41.060 --> 01:15:46.760 minting of this algorithmic stable coin can morph over time and use a basket of assets 01:15:46.760 --> 01:15:51.040 that have achieved relative stability to be able to back this dollar base coin. 01:15:52.060 --> 01:16:11.040 The creator of the maker DAO, he wrote about these things in his blog. He 01:16:11.040 --> 01:16:19.260 at delete shitcoin. Oh, you actually talked about at shitcoin. No, no, no, no. His ticker symbol, 01:16:19.660 --> 01:16:28.100 his handle on Twitter was at delete shitcoin. I got it. Yeah. He's the creator of the maker 01:16:28.100 --> 01:16:39.620 DAO and of the DAO. So he actually, I would say he's the father of the stable coin. 01:16:40.200 --> 01:16:45.320 I would call him the father of DeFi as well. He said very controversial things that 01:16:48.540 --> 01:16:54.380 and yeah, he was suicide. Yeah, he's suicide. Yeah, something happened. We don't know exactly 01:16:54.380 --> 01:16:58.720 what it is, but what the media says is one thing what really happened. Who knows? Yeah. 01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:10.900 Yeah. So, but he wrote about these things and so yeah, maybe I don't know, have you looked into 01:17:10.900 --> 01:17:16.980 what he said about these things because he really like almost like he said a lot of what you're 01:17:16.980 --> 01:17:25.480 saying right now. I haven't you're saying right now. I haven't read his sayings, but I think 01:17:25.480 --> 01:17:29.920 if you run in the circles of the people that care about an algo stable coin, 01:17:30.380 --> 01:17:35.640 they care about it for the same reasons that I do. So I think it's, we have, we share some 01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:43.800 commonality there. The people that are trying to get an alternative to USDC that achieves what 01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:50.340 USDC can't. I know what Tether can't or we're kind of in a bit of an echo chamber, 01:17:50.340 --> 01:17:55.740 we're echoing a lot of the same narratives, right? That's the only way to be truly censorship 01:17:55.740 --> 01:18:00.860 resistant, how to prevent frozen funds, how to achieve a level of privacy as well 01:18:01.500 --> 01:18:07.000 that you can't get with USDC. And so that is what I'm, I don't know if I'm calling 01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:11.440 geeking out about, but I'm excited about and also just really, really, really want to see 01:18:11.440 --> 01:18:15.680 happen. I just really want to see that happen. And I'm open to the different mechanisms 01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:22.620 by which it evolves, whether it be like I said, a Bitcoin script or an EVM chain or a Bitcoin 01:18:22.620 --> 01:18:27.860 layer two, and whether or not that goes to Zano or I've heard of other protocols, Alio, 01:18:28.520 --> 01:18:33.840 which is a full smart contract privacy chain. You could bridge to that, but 01:18:35.020 --> 01:18:39.320 I just want to see, I just want to see that happen. I, you know, to get an 01:18:39.320 --> 01:18:44.480 actual privacy stable coin well adopted. Let me ask you my last questions here. 01:18:44.480 --> 01:18:45.980 Is Tether too big to fail? 01:18:47.080 --> 01:18:51.640 I think nothing's quote unquote too big to fail, especially in the world of crypto. 01:18:52.280 --> 01:18:55.520 So banks are too big to fail because there was no other alternative and so therefore 01:18:55.520 --> 01:19:00.300 governments would bail them out. But now that there are alternatives, I think 01:19:00.300 --> 01:19:05.080 none of the financial institutions are too big to fail because you can only 01:19:05.080 --> 01:19:10.640 bail out so much when there is an exit path. So if there's no exit path from 01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:13.200 like the dollar, right, then the government can print as much as it wants. 01:19:13.720 --> 01:19:17.680 When there's an exit path from the dollar and people can both hold and pay in a different 01:19:17.680 --> 01:19:22.860 option, the ability to print the dollar to bail out the banks starts to become very limited 01:19:23.620 --> 01:19:26.340 because now you hyper deflate because people aren't dependent. Sure, go print that 01:19:26.340 --> 01:19:32.760 shit. I don't care for it, right? That is what we disable that capability 01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:36.060 of the feds and the government by exiting out to other currencies. 01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:40.780 So yeah, no, but they're not too big to fail. They were because the system made it so. 01:19:41.180 --> 01:19:45.000 Crypto makes it where no, I'm sorry, you are no longer too big to fail. 01:19:46.960 --> 01:19:52.560 That's awesome. What a great insight. I've never thought about it that way. I've never 01:19:52.560 --> 01:19:58.800 come to that logical realization that you just shared with us and I really want to thank 01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:02.180 you for that. Wow, that's awesome, dude. Thank you for asking. You should write an essay 01:20:02.180 --> 01:20:07.180 about that. I wish I wrote more. I'm terrible at writing, but I know I should write a bit more. 01:20:07.900 --> 01:20:12.140 Are there any other actors in the space that share that opinion that you just expressed? 01:20:14.840 --> 01:20:19.240 Sure. So clearly. I'm sure I've heard it from someone. I think I'm one of those. I have no 01:20:19.240 --> 01:20:23.540 original ideas. I just listen to some people and go, that makes good sense. I like that one. 01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:28.540 So I'm sure I'm not crediting someone to what I just said, much like AI doesn't credit what 01:20:28.540 --> 01:20:33.300 it learns from other people. I'm probably doing the same thing. My actual intelligence is 01:20:34.380 --> 01:20:40.860 failing in that regard, but I'm almost certain I've heard this talked about multiple times from 01:20:40.860 --> 01:20:47.580 other sources. So I'm not going to take full credit for it. I have one more question if you're 01:20:47.580 --> 01:20:55.760 willing to take it. If you have time, one more. Sure. Let's do it. AI with blockchain. 01:20:58.000 --> 01:21:03.440 I think it's going to bring about the dystopian world that we all fear in Hollywood and sci-fi, 01:21:04.900 --> 01:21:07.700 but it's one of those you just can't fight it. It's like that. 01:21:10.400 --> 01:21:14.720 I don't have a good analogy for it, but you can't fight it. You can't ignore it. You can't 01:21:17.040 --> 01:21:20.300 pretend it doesn't exist. Just like most technologies, if you don't learn to live 01:21:20.300 --> 01:21:24.060 with it, you will just be left behind. It doesn't mean you have to like it. 01:21:25.060 --> 01:21:32.500 And so I use it pretty extensively. I even pay for it. A lot of people don't pay for AI services, 01:21:33.760 --> 01:21:38.040 and I see how... I'm not going to say it makes our team more efficient. I'm not going to say that 01:21:38.040 --> 01:21:47.760 because it doesn't. It helps your team keep up with how everyone else is accomplishing and 01:21:48.240 --> 01:21:54.000 leveling up their productivity. The world is leveling up their quote-unquote productivity, 01:21:54.920 --> 01:22:02.740 and so you've got to use it to just stay on par. It's not saving you any time. It doesn't save me 01:22:02.740 --> 01:22:08.020 any time because it's stuff that we have to do in order to stay competitive. Just like it's hard 01:22:08.020 --> 01:22:11.100 to use a cell phone and not have a smartphone now if you want to stay competitive in the 01:22:11.100 --> 01:22:14.960 business world. There's no option. If we never had smartphones, you could stay competitive for 01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:21.300 that one. So it's intersection with blockchain. I think they're too diametrically opposed technologies. 01:22:22.520 --> 01:22:26.620 Sure, there's some intersection, especially like the traders in the world. They're using AI to 01:22:26.620 --> 01:22:32.600 figure out signals and whatnot and when should you buy, when should you sell. Sure, that's not 01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:38.060 really a marriage of the technologies per se, but I think of... I've said this even before, 01:22:38.060 --> 01:22:45.580 ChatGBT existed. I look at Bitcoin crypto as very libertarian anarchist technology, 01:22:46.020 --> 01:22:54.720 and I think of AI as very communist technology. It's very centralizing. Any aspects of peer-to-peer 01:22:54.720 --> 01:23:03.700 AI is like orders of magnitude worse in capability than fully centralized behemoth AI that's owned 01:23:03.700 --> 01:23:11.080 by the three to four biggest companies in the world. It also wants to aggregate data just like China 01:23:11.080 --> 01:23:17.640 and its communist regime that has surveillance everywhere, surveillance state everywhere. That's 01:23:17.640 --> 01:23:24.000 what AI is. It wants to surveil and gather as much data as it possibly can. That's how it gets 01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:30.280 bigger and smarter. That's how it knows us and how to co-opt us. And so they're completely 01:23:30.280 --> 01:23:33.780 diametrically opposed technologies. As anyone listen to this, you could probably tell I'm not 01:23:33.780 --> 01:23:38.840 the biggest AI fan, but I do use it and I know I need to. Otherwise, I'll wither and so I'll use 01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:45.860 it to try to build the freedom tech. So I'll use the tech that I'm not a big fan of if it helps 01:23:45.860 --> 01:23:52.820 me build the tech that I think the world absolutely needs. And that's the crypto world. 01:23:53.400 --> 01:23:55.800 What if Satoshi really gave us a market-driven AI? 01:23:57.200 --> 01:24:06.900 But I don't know what that means in nuanced, precise terms. And so whatever Satoshi brings, 01:24:07.240 --> 01:24:11.680 market-driven, what does that mean to be market-driven? The market pays for it, 01:24:12.320 --> 01:24:18.280 the market distributes it. It's peer-to-peer, sure. But the heart of the matter of the 01:24:18.280 --> 01:24:26.380 core fundamental issue with AI is it is incredibly, incredibly CPU power-hungry and centralizing. 01:24:27.580 --> 01:24:32.120 Unlike Bitcoin and crypto, where you have a node that could be here and node over there, 01:24:32.300 --> 01:24:36.500 node around the world, and boom, you're more decentralized and it's more resilient 01:24:37.120 --> 01:24:42.420 and more hardened and sometimes even more scalable because you have more contributors 01:24:42.420 --> 01:24:51.540 to the network around the world. AI is the opposite. If I have a GPU sitting here in my office and you 01:24:51.540 --> 01:24:56.880 have a GPU sitting in your office and your home and someone else in China and blah, blah, blah, 01:24:57.760 --> 01:25:05.240 those GPUs have a fraction of the combined power because they're distributed and more 01:25:05.240 --> 01:25:10.380 decentralized and peer-to-peer than if we just stuck those GPUs into a closet owned by 01:25:10.380 --> 01:25:21.580 Microsoft. The locality need of AI, meaning AI is most powerful when the power is local to itself. 01:25:22.300 --> 01:25:27.180 They're all in the same closet. Exponentially increases the power of the ability to train models 01:25:27.180 --> 01:25:35.960 and to infer models. You can do it when it's distributed, but that ability just plummets. 01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:41.820 It just takes a nosedive. It's just not cost effective. That's why there's these giant data 01:25:41.820 --> 01:25:48.040 centers, the size of the building I'm in that is full of GPUs. You're not going to be able to 01:25:48.040 --> 01:25:53.620 market drive the ownership of that. Own parts of that such that it's not co-opted. No, 01:25:53.680 --> 01:25:57.480 it's going to be one big company that owns that to give you the most powerful AI that 01:25:57.480 --> 01:26:01.280 gives you the fastest response that knows most about the world so that when you chat with 01:26:01.280 --> 01:26:07.900 your chatbot, it can do the deep research kind of things. That's going to go to the biggest companies 01:26:07.900 --> 01:26:14.740 in the world. There's nothing that peer-to-peer is going to do to really change the power of the 01:26:14.740 --> 01:26:21.980 centralization of AI. Are you familiar with what Erbit attempted and also are you familiar with 01:26:21.980 --> 01:26:32.100 21E8? I'm familiar with and attempted. I'm familiar with it. I've researched it. I've read 01:26:32.100 --> 01:26:37.940 multiple pages on it. I still have no clue what the hell it is. It sounds like the pipe dream 01:26:37.940 --> 01:26:43.300 thing that you pitch to VCs that don't have a clue and therefore you sound smart enough for 01:26:43.300 --> 01:26:52.020 them to put money into it, which they did. 21E8, I have heard of obviously it's alluded to 21 million 01:26:53.360 --> 01:26:57.240 but I don't know precisely how it intersects with AI. 01:26:58.300 --> 01:27:12.200 So it is the constant search for the computer that we can use in clusters to create a 01:27:12.200 --> 01:27:17.260 decentralized computational data market to compete against these behemoths. 01:27:18.000 --> 01:27:25.260 I guess you got a few different buzzwords there. Cluster, decentralized, data market. 01:27:25.780 --> 01:27:30.400 So what it is is at the best computer to give us that right now is the Mac mini. 01:27:32.060 --> 01:27:34.340 Because the Mac mini- It's powerful, it's small. 01:27:34.340 --> 01:27:43.100 It's small and you can build, aggregate as many Mac minis as possible and in other words, 01:27:43.160 --> 01:27:52.060 it scales in parallel like Bitcoin and you can run SHA256 through it, SHA256 computations 01:27:52.060 --> 01:28:00.280 and also any language model. So the big Mac mini is almost capable right now of running 01:28:00.280 --> 01:28:06.800 deep seek for example. So capable of running deep seek is one thing. Being able to 01:28:07.380 --> 01:28:12.600 train deep seek is another. So if you're running deep seek, you're running a model that was trained 01:28:12.600 --> 01:28:21.080 by someone with a building full of computers and GPUs and so running is inferring. So an 01:28:21.080 --> 01:28:30.100 inference is different from training. Training is the foundation and baseline of AI. 01:28:30.280 --> 01:28:34.680 Because you get to you as the person that owns the equipment that trains the model, 01:28:34.980 --> 01:28:39.640 get to choose what goes in. That's how we get the control and the censorship 01:28:40.380 --> 01:28:47.420 and how AI then becomes how do you call it biased in its response. It's like you've taken 01:28:47.420 --> 01:28:52.820 the little child out of the womb and you're the one that's training it. After it's trained, 01:28:53.220 --> 01:28:58.960 sure you can go in and ask it questions. But this thing's already trained. It kind of 01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:05.980 knows who it is. It has its informational bias already. And that's the control and the 01:29:05.980 --> 01:29:10.640 co-opting of AI is at the training level. There's attempts at at least 01:29:12.180 --> 01:29:15.500 controlling and distributing the inference. That's what like Venice AI is doing, 01:29:18.720 --> 01:29:22.320 Eric's projects. But that still doesn't take care of the training piece. 01:29:22.940 --> 01:29:30.960 Right. So for us, like big blockers, we see micropayments as the means by which we train 01:29:31.500 --> 01:29:39.640 on-chain an AI. Like training an AI on-chain? Training? So training Mac 01:29:39.640 --> 01:29:42.960 Minis won't hold a candle because they don't have the GPU power to train. 01:29:44.280 --> 01:29:50.400 I'll send you an article on this on the market drivers through micropayments 01:29:50.960 --> 01:30:00.000 that could lead into the training of AI when data is processed on-chain. And the scalability for a 01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:11.100 decentralized competitive market of data is possible when we use infrastructure that is readily 01:30:11.100 --> 01:30:15.720 accessible to anyone. The Mac Mini is something affordable to anyone. I have a bunch here and 01:30:15.720 --> 01:30:20.340 we love them. We've got like half a dozen of them here. Yeah, so many servers are great, but 01:30:20.340 --> 01:30:26.240 they're great for a specific use for training AI. So I'm going to I'm going to send you an 01:30:26.240 --> 01:30:30.740 interview that I did with Mark Wilcox on this on this topic. And I'm also going to send you 01:30:30.740 --> 01:30:40.140 an article on the on the micropayment aspect on-chain that could be used in the future 01:30:40.140 --> 01:30:48.680 for training AI. All right, we'll take a look. Cool, cool. Yeah, dude, I look into, I'm really 01:30:48.680 --> 01:30:56.300 out. Fair enough, someone's got to be. Yeah, but you know, it's almost like, you know, I have a 01:30:56.300 --> 01:31:01.540 friend who was the founder of Brave New Books. Do you remember Brave New Books? Oh man, love that 01:31:01.540 --> 01:31:08.820 place over in Austin. Yeah, so. Well, Harley, yeah, their original owner I think before they 01:31:08.820 --> 01:31:15.220 gave up to Kat, Kat Bleich. So I was having a conversation with him and he said, Raph, in the 01:31:15.220 --> 01:31:23.300 early days, bit coiners would dream. And that really hit home. I'm like, you're right, bit coiners 01:31:24.360 --> 01:31:32.480 were dreamers because we had an open, unbounded protocol with all these op codes that 01:31:32.480 --> 01:31:38.620 really gave us the ability to even dream with Bitcoin as a supercomputer 01:31:40.380 --> 01:31:48.280 with a market driven supercomputer. And so that dream's still alive. A lot of us have 01:31:48.280 --> 01:31:54.880 kept that going. And that's kind of like where my mind is constantly is in dreaming with Bitcoin, 01:31:54.880 --> 01:32:03.560 dreaming with what is possible with Bitcoin. Mark Wilcox, him and everyone around that world of 01:32:03.560 --> 01:32:13.500 2018 have really pushed the agenda in this whole area of what they call their buzzword a 01:32:13.500 --> 01:32:19.120 computational data market. And I'll send you my interview with him. I'll send you some other 01:32:19.120 --> 01:32:25.840 interviews with him that are pretty intense, where he really goes into it. I highly recommend 01:32:25.840 --> 01:32:29.920 everyone to actually I'll put those interviews in the description below. I highly recommend 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:36.740 that everyone like become acquainted with this because Mark Wilcox was himself a consultant 01:32:36.740 --> 01:32:51.860 for open AI. Before it went like rogue and Elon. So yeah, so we are, I think there's hope. I think 01:32:51.860 --> 01:32:57.420 there's hope in terms of, you know, how you say that AI is communist. I think there's hope 01:32:58.280 --> 01:33:04.340 in that I think that Bitcoin could be used as the engine where we have a free market 01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:12.160 trained AI. A true free market trained AI. It would be a great and great piece to get to. So I won't 01:33:12.160 --> 01:33:18.900 say I'm hopeful, but I want to champion any efforts that look like could circumvent the concern that I 01:33:18.900 --> 01:33:25.240 have of AI in general. So glad to know that there's people trying. I'll say that much. I 01:33:25.240 --> 01:33:30.400 definitely am glad to know. That's awesome to hear. I'm going to send you the presentation 01:33:30.400 --> 01:33:37.920 on the MetaNet that was just launched yesterday. Bitcoin as an internet. P2P finality in routing 01:33:37.920 --> 01:33:42.620 communication, assuring yourself that there is no eavesdropper in encrypted communication 01:33:42.620 --> 01:33:47.680 like a phone call. I'll send you that presentation. I also was dropped yesterday. I'm going to send 01:33:47.680 --> 01:33:55.320 you stuff on 2018. And I'm going to show you two token protocols that are modern Bitcoin 01:33:55.320 --> 01:34:00.160 token protocols. State of the art where you don't need to index the entire blockchain 01:34:00.720 --> 01:34:05.840 and where you have that programmability across chain with these protocols. 01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:11.900 Yeah. So okay. So actually I'll put that all in the description below. 01:34:12.380 --> 01:34:15.880 All right. Yes, please. That way everyone else can click on it. We can all chat about it 01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:22.300 together. Let's do it. Let's do it because I honestly think that the hijacking of Bitcoin 01:34:23.100 --> 01:34:29.580 was bigger than many even think. It was not just in my opinion about like 01:34:30.620 --> 01:34:38.280 taking away the fullness of P2P digital currency. I think that the hijacking of Bitcoin was 01:34:38.280 --> 01:34:46.280 deeper in that the hijacking of Bitcoin wanted to make us forget Bitcoin's computational power. 01:34:46.900 --> 01:34:54.420 And that's what we're rediscovering. And that's now even the adversaries of the original 01:34:54.420 --> 01:34:59.820 thinkers of these ideas like Craig Wright, his adversaries are now in agreement with him 01:35:00.320 --> 01:35:04.960 where you see in BTC the great initiatives for the great script restoration where you see 01:35:04.960 --> 01:35:11.160 the entirety of the infrastructure for BTC layer twos revolving around a Bitcoin 01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:15.660 virtual machine they're calling it, which is based on the work of 01:35:17.420 --> 01:35:24.740 if you get down to it, Craig Wright and Escript, which now Escript is like the guru 01:35:25.460 --> 01:35:31.640 ask anybody about Jawe Lu in the BTC circles and that's all you'll ever do. Yeah. So like 01:35:31.640 --> 01:35:38.120 he's the guy that's giving seminars to all of these BTC devs and he was someone who was a 01:35:38.120 --> 01:35:45.300 pupil of Craig Wright. So it is what it is. The fact the truth is out there. So 01:35:45.920 --> 01:35:50.560 thank you so much for your time. Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. Really appreciate it. 01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:53.740 And I look forward to hearing your presentation on Edge 01:35:54.680 --> 01:36:02.040 in detail on our at our TCV summit. What matters most in crypto, which will be 01:36:02.040 --> 01:36:09.180 happening Friday, September 12. Sweet 2025. So I see you there's over half done. 01:36:09.820 --> 01:36:14.480 Not damn cool. Cool. All right. Well, Raphael, pleasure as always. Thanks so much. 01:36:14.940 --> 01:36:20.080 We'll see you over at the TCV summit as well. Everyone else. Thank you guys. Peace, love and energy. 01:36:20.980 --> 01:36:26.800 Now we are dealing with a possible world war. Some will say we are already in a world war. 01:36:26.800 --> 01:36:32.860 My condolences and prayers go out to everyone suffering under tyranny. It really sucks. I'm 01:36:32.860 --> 01:36:37.780 really sorry. But it seems as if people are starting to wake up regarding crypto more and more 01:36:37.780 --> 01:36:42.740 each day. And so it's in the description right here to read where we give our secret 01:36:42.740 --> 01:36:47.200 sauce and what we teach our subscribers because things are just that bad. You know, 01:36:47.200 --> 01:36:52.140 everyone needs this information. People need to know about sound cryptocurrencies that are 01:36:52.140 --> 01:36:56.380 actually private by default and to know how to properly use crypto.