WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.380 been listening to your podcast for a while now and I love the content and the brutal honesty. 00:05.760 --> 00:11.900 As an attorney who fought against COVID mandates, I follow a lot of dissenting medical and legal 00:11.900 --> 00:18.020 voices and read a lot of great stacks. But your posts and podcasts are amongst my favourite. 00:18.420 --> 00:22.580 Thank you for all you do. Legal Glass, thank you so much for that lovely comment and thank 00:22.580 --> 00:28.080 you for subscribing to my sub-stack. Helgi, hi Amid, all the best and lots of love from 00:28.080 --> 00:32.340 Iceland. I've been researching all this stuff since around 2009-ish and I have to say that 00:32.340 --> 00:37.360 your podcast is one of the best in the space so far and I fully support your change to start 00:37.360 --> 00:41.600 charging for every episode. I didn't even know that you had to pay well before. If you're ever in 00:41.600 --> 00:47.340 Iceland, please come by and visit me in my brewery in Hela. Wow, well I hope I do get to visit 00:47.340 --> 00:52.000 Iceland and I'll definitely give you a shout if I come. And Joe, I believe you're one of the 00:52.000 --> 00:57.760 few out there that is not controlled by ego, arrogance, pride, money or coercion. It is truly 00:57.760 --> 01:03.340 humbling to discover how much of our lives are based on lies which we failed to question. And to 01:03.340 --> 01:07.980 everyone else who's signed up and become a supporter on Spotify and on sub-stack, I just want to say 01:07.980 --> 01:12.620 thank you so much and welcome. You're part of a wonderful tribe and you keep this show alive 01:12.620 --> 01:17.480 and I'm most grateful. Okay, let's get into the show. You are listening to the Doc Malik 01:17.480 --> 01:22.820 podcast. This show is 100% independent and fully funded by listeners like yourself. 01:22.820 --> 01:28.100 So, if you wish to support Ahmed in all that he is doing, then please subscribe to his channel on 01:28.100 --> 01:33.660 Spotify or his sub-stack, or simply buy him a coffee with a one-off donation, links to which 01:33.660 --> 01:47.780 can be found at dot malik.com. Now, let's get on with the show. Folks, I'm really excited to 01:47.780 --> 01:53.220 share this with you. I'm launching my two retreats this summer, a time to reconnect. 01:53.800 --> 01:57.720 Over the past few weeks, I've been talking about what I believe is the real pandemic, 01:57.720 --> 02:05.220 the pandemic of disconnection, not just physical, but emotional, psychological and spiritual. So many 02:05.220 --> 02:11.460 of you have written to me telling me you feel it too, surrounded by people, but yet somehow still 02:11.460 --> 02:16.780 alone, wanting deeper conversations, more honesty, real connection with people who understand you, 02:17.080 --> 02:21.800 finding your tribe. And the truth is many of us are searching for spaces where we can just 02:21.800 --> 02:26.860 be ourselves again, where we can speak openly, laugh freely and not feel like we are walking 02:26.860 --> 02:31.520 on eggshells all the time. That's why my friend Kasia and I have created the connection retreat. 02:32.000 --> 02:35.980 After the success of the two retreats I ran in 2025, I wanted to go a little bit deeper, 02:36.200 --> 02:40.420 create something really special that's not just a weekend away, but a genuine experience of 02:40.420 --> 02:45.540 reconnection. Connection to yourself, connection to others, connection to nature, connection to 02:45.540 --> 02:50.580 truth. Over three days, we're going to share meals, movement, nature, conversation, play. 02:50.980 --> 02:55.380 A lot of people don't play anymore. And real time together, no masks, no performance, 02:55.380 --> 02:59.980 just presence. At the very beginning, Kasia and I made a very simple pinky promise to do 02:59.980 --> 03:03.960 this with integrity, honesty and heart and to create something really truly meaningful. 03:04.520 --> 03:08.800 We'll be running the two retreats this year from the 26th to 28th of June and from the 03:08.800 --> 03:13.600 4th to 6th of September and the countryside in Hartfordshire just outside London. It's going 03:13.600 --> 03:17.740 to be small intimate groups. So if you feel the call, we would love to welcome you. 03:18.020 --> 03:23.980 You can find full details and book your place via my substack and the website is 03:25.640 --> 03:31.120 substack.com. Look for the newsletter. It is time to reconnect. The connection retreat is here. 03:31.400 --> 03:35.560 In about a week, the retreat will be open to all, not just my paid subscribers, 03:36.100 --> 03:41.940 and you'll be able to find the booking details at docmalic.com. Sometimes the most 03:41.940 --> 03:46.800 important thing we can do is simply come back to ourselves and to each other. Let's love 03:46.800 --> 03:50.160 Doc Malick. Call you Tim. Yes, you most definitely can. 03:50.900 --> 03:56.580 God, I've had quite a few Tims actually. So I had Tim beat the reset. You ever heard of him? 03:57.540 --> 04:00.660 I haven't. But Tim's a really strong, powerful name, I reckon. 04:02.320 --> 04:16.560 But yeah, it's not the most powerful name in my head. If I was to conjure up 04:16.560 --> 04:21.520 the most powerful masculine name ever, Tim. No. 04:24.020 --> 04:30.080 Anyway, so Tim beat the reset as an Australian. That's why I'm mentioning him. You should look 04:30.080 --> 04:34.780 into him. He's a great guy. His podcast is coming out today. It's the second time he's been on 04:34.780 --> 04:40.820 and he's, and it was Tim beat the reset. You know, the great reset. Yeah. And he's, 04:40.820 --> 04:44.400 he's talking about how you can preserve your wealth and the BS of money and 04:44.400 --> 04:49.460 how you should invest in silver and gold. Anyway, his account reached 100,000 on Instagram 04:49.460 --> 04:55.400 and they just canceled it. Like literally just canceled it or no appeal, nothing. And he's clearly 04:55.400 --> 04:59.560 doing something right because, you know, he's ruffling feathers. He's upsetting. 05:02.360 --> 05:06.740 And then I've got another Tim. Hopefully he said the word G'day at least two or three times 05:06.740 --> 05:12.540 at his, um, spill. I don't think he did. He was here in the studio. He was visiting 05:12.540 --> 05:19.460 and he popped by. Yeah, he is. G'day. And how are you today? G'day to you too. 05:19.600 --> 05:23.680 Although it's good evening for you, isn't it? Yeah, that just rolled off the tongue for you too. 05:26.740 --> 05:32.880 I'm not, I'm not. Sharks in the water. Anyway, listen, that's random. I know. I think that 05:32.880 --> 05:36.840 was from neighbors. There's sharks in the water or something like that. Anyway, I lived in 05:36.840 --> 05:40.420 the UK for a couple of years and I guarantee you there were two things that always came up. 05:40.420 --> 05:45.660 One was a G'day and the other one immediately following it was, do you watch neighbors? 05:47.700 --> 05:50.020 See, I'm only talking about watch neighbors because I had to get up to it. 05:51.600 --> 05:57.260 Yeah, mate. I, I used to watch neighbors as a kid. Don't ask me why. It was just a thing we did. 05:57.560 --> 06:01.520 And I used to be like so jealous of you guys. You had all these beautiful blue skies 06:02.000 --> 06:05.820 and in Glasgow where, you know, I was born and brought up, it was just great, 06:06.080 --> 06:09.260 perpetual great. And you watch neighbors and everyone's in the sun. 06:09.260 --> 06:14.680 And they got their, you know, blonde hair and in the beach and in the water and the blue sky, 06:14.800 --> 06:20.480 blue water. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Let's go down to Greening Beach where it's a gray beach 06:20.480 --> 06:26.140 with gray water and gray skies. Awesome. No, neighbors is a very accurate reflection of 06:26.140 --> 06:33.640 daily life here and no, it's not that I'd like it to be. I've heard the skies there aren't 06:33.640 --> 06:37.960 quite what they used to be. So I worked out in Sydney for six months and I loved the big 06:37.960 --> 06:43.140 sky. Like you had clouds, but they're so high up. And you had the most beautiful sunsets and 06:43.140 --> 06:48.100 sunrises and, you know, and now like someone in Sydney was telling me like he can't remember 06:48.100 --> 06:52.540 the last time they had a nice blue skies perpetually gray and they've got chem trails and 06:52.540 --> 06:58.200 everything. Have you noticed that? It's not that bad. I don't think. I think we, 06:58.300 --> 07:03.780 we tend to have more sharp, like it's, it's a nice day for a day and then it's 07:03.780 --> 07:06.880 happy for a while. Then there's another nice day for a day and then it's happy for a while. 07:07.320 --> 07:11.780 It didn't back in the 90s. So it was like every day used to be absolutely. 07:13.680 --> 07:17.740 This is what I mean. So there has been a change of some sort. Anyway, some people might be 07:17.740 --> 07:22.260 wondering why your camera is off. Do you want to just tell the audience like what is the 07:22.260 --> 07:26.860 issue? Why, why are you not willing to show your face? Like, I think this is relevant 07:26.860 --> 07:31.320 to what we're talking about. Yeah. And that there's a couple of reasons for that one 07:31.320 --> 07:38.760 actually. One is it's not about me, but that that's the first reason like this topic, which is 07:38.760 --> 07:44.180 about supporting male victims. It's not about me. It's about, you know, how do you support 07:44.180 --> 08:01.100 male victims along that particular journey? The second is God damn ugly, aren't you? It's 08:02.060 --> 08:04.760 blue hair of yours. It's too much, man. 08:05.400 --> 08:08.180 And then being Aussie is the mullet, you know, the whole lot. 08:09.140 --> 08:11.840 Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. What were you saying? The second reason is what? 08:12.560 --> 08:22.880 Genuine fear. So I would prefer my ex-partner who, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this 08:22.880 --> 08:28.780 as we, you know, progress had no, no awareness that I run this group. 08:30.800 --> 08:34.740 And unfortunately, I do have a slightly unique look, not with the blue hair, not the mullet. 08:37.000 --> 08:42.500 It's the nose rings. So like, why do you live in fear? Like one of the things I always say is 08:42.500 --> 08:47.060 we should never live in fear. We should never be fearful, like fear no one but God. 08:48.020 --> 08:56.620 That's true. But it's not just me. I have kids as well. And there's no way that I want this to 08:56.620 --> 09:01.400 start to shadow across their particular journey. So I've tried to shield them 09:02.040 --> 09:08.260 as much as humanly possible throughout their entire life from, you know, and they can probably 09:08.260 --> 09:12.380 get into this. But when we were in that relationship, you know, getting out of that 09:12.380 --> 09:20.040 relationship, try to shield them from that as much and try to not even raise the topic with them 09:20.040 --> 09:25.100 when they ask questions because they do necessarily ask questions of why we separated dad, what's 09:25.100 --> 09:30.800 going on dad. And I'll have conversations with them, which are, you know, things were a bit 09:30.800 --> 09:38.600 difficult that won't go much further than that. Okay. Well, listen, I want to just say 09:39.120 --> 09:43.160 I'm a great believer that human beings are pretty much the same everywhere. I mean, 09:43.180 --> 09:48.280 there are differences, cultural, religious, for sure. I mean, there are some differences, 09:48.320 --> 09:53.360 but fundamentally at our core, we're freaking the same. And the same applies for male and 09:53.360 --> 09:58.000 female. I mean, again, there are differences on hormones and all that kind of stuff. I 09:58.000 --> 10:02.260 appreciate women and men are very, you know, men are from Mars women are from Venus. But 10:02.260 --> 10:07.560 again, our fundamental wants and desires are the same. And we're human beings first and 10:07.560 --> 10:16.680 foremost. And when we're talking about things today about male victims, that's not to say 10:16.680 --> 10:21.120 it's only males that are victims females are victims too. But I think the reason why you set 10:21.120 --> 10:26.340 up your group is that there's a lot of attention and support for female victims and recognition 10:26.340 --> 10:35.340 for female victims, but not so much for men. Is that right? It is. And when I went looking 10:35.340 --> 10:42.260 for support myself, more often than not, I'd get either we're not here for you by response, 10:42.560 --> 10:47.060 which is, you know, I go knocking on the doors of all the usual groups going, hey, I need help. 10:47.140 --> 10:52.520 I need to figure out what I need to do. How do I get out of this? And the response would be, 10:52.580 --> 10:56.880 are we really set up for women and children? Or there'd be no response whatsoever, and 10:56.880 --> 11:01.900 it'd be just like talking into a void. And then in Australia, in particular, 11:02.620 --> 11:12.380 when you go looking for resources, the first thing you almost always find is you was a perpetrator. 11:12.720 --> 11:16.420 Men are perpetrators. Men are perpetrators. Men are perpetrators. And this narrative 11:17.400 --> 11:22.200 persists everywhere. There's a very famous men's group that operates here in Australia. 11:22.420 --> 11:27.700 It's the kind of primary phone line you call. And you type in, you know, male victim, 11:28.060 --> 11:30.820 and you jump onto their website and you get the male victim page. 11:30.820 --> 11:34.700 And then the first eight things that they tell you about is, here's how to manage your stress, 11:34.860 --> 11:38.060 here's how to manage your anger, here's how to stop screaming and yelling. It's like, no, no, no, 11:39.160 --> 11:48.120 I'm the male victim here. How do I find support and resource? So I was really very, very lucky 11:48.120 --> 11:55.980 in myself because I ended up by pure chance coming across to psychology. It was also a bloke 11:55.980 --> 12:03.760 who understood male victimization, coercive control, and he really helped me through that process. 12:04.480 --> 12:11.120 And when I popped out at the back end of all of that, you know, broken and shattered as you do 12:11.120 --> 12:18.480 as you go through that process, I kind of wouldn't know. If I, you know, was the one guy who 12:18.480 --> 12:24.800 had pure luck and came across psychologists who helped, I can guarantee there's a lot of other 12:24.800 --> 12:30.640 men out there that were just as lost as I was when they're in the middle of it, which turned out to be. 12:32.940 --> 12:37.480 So you just, okay, you've just published, I get that totally. You've put, and you know, 12:37.940 --> 12:43.760 a lot of my listeners will know I was kind of in a not very healthy first marriage. And 12:44.260 --> 12:48.460 Sam, I don't want to go into it too much. I don't, I don't want to, I don't want her to 12:48.460 --> 12:52.800 hear this and get upset and then come for me because that's the kind of person she would 12:52.800 --> 12:59.220 be and would do. But it was painful. It was a very painful marriage and, you know, people, 12:59.640 --> 13:05.740 people always make it look like it's the guy that's the bad guy and is the horrible, aggressive man 13:05.740 --> 13:14.220 and it's all his fault. And even when I am, you know, we ended that marriage, I lost pretty 13:14.220 --> 13:21.140 much all my friends. They couldn't understand how this sweet, beautiful young lady could be 13:21.140 --> 13:27.620 the horrible person. It had to be me. I was like, great. So, you know, I had to start all over again 13:27.620 --> 13:33.980 with my friendship group and everything. It was like, it was quite an eye opener. Anyway, so let's 13:33.980 --> 13:41.300 talk about. So carry on. No, I was going to say, it's quite, quite sad. What you described is 13:42.100 --> 13:46.600 exactly what I went through as well. And I'm very sorry you had that experience. 13:48.240 --> 13:56.420 And I think there's a nuance in there where you yourself also support that narrative when you're 13:56.420 --> 14:02.220 in the relationship about, oh, no, everything's okay, because you are fearful over how she would 14:02.220 --> 14:08.460 react if you start to talk about other people, about what's going on. And you feed that narrative 14:08.460 --> 14:12.200 going on and I'd like, you know, everything's okay. And you know, I know everything's great 14:12.200 --> 14:17.400 at home and this is wonderful. And you'd convince yourself of that as much as you possibly could 14:17.840 --> 14:24.380 along that way. And when you do start to talk to people, men in particular, when they start to 14:24.380 --> 14:31.980 talk to people, there's this sense of assumed agency that a man has. So if he was in that 14:31.980 --> 14:36.780 relationship, you just go, well, he must have chosen it. He must have, you know, been okay, 14:36.900 --> 14:41.360 it must have been something, you know, perfectly within his agency to choose, because he has 14:41.360 --> 14:46.700 more inherent power than a female. So if he was in that relationship, it must not have been that bad. 14:47.400 --> 14:52.000 Whereas that's not true at all. More often than not, you're, for one of a better term, 14:52.720 --> 14:57.720 gaslit, coerced, convinced that you belong in that position, and it's not great at all. 14:58.880 --> 15:06.520 When I, so I just, so I was going to just say, so yes, yes, partly, yes, you're right 15:06.520 --> 15:12.340 about me and my relationship in that sense, I agree. One, I went into that relationship 15:12.340 --> 15:19.120 with very poor self worth. And that's childhood trauma. And so I never thought I was good enough. 15:19.420 --> 15:24.260 I didn't think I was lovable. I didn't think it was worthy. I thought I was always going to be 15:24.260 --> 15:29.760 rejected and abandoned. So that's not a good place to go into a relationship. I'll be honest 15:29.760 --> 15:37.940 okay. And then when you meet someone who can then, you know, abuse you and coerce you, if you're 15:37.940 --> 15:43.380 like that, then you're going to take it. And you know, you know, anyone with decent self worth 15:43.740 --> 15:48.220 would be like on day one, I'm not putting up with this bye bye, you know, but I put up with 15:48.220 --> 15:52.260 it for those reasons. But another reason I want to just tell you is way back because, you know, 15:52.300 --> 15:58.840 I got married, it was a long, long time ago. And at that time, I was a Muslim. And, you 15:58.840 --> 16:02.760 know, I was quite a practicing Muslim, not freaking fundamentalist, but you know what I mean? Like, 16:02.820 --> 16:08.720 you know, I believed in Islam and, you know, everything. And there's good things in it. There 16:08.720 --> 16:12.320 are good things in Islam, you know, just like there's good things in every religion, you know, 16:12.520 --> 16:18.280 it's a fact. I just I gave up with organized religion. Actually, thanks to the first marriage. 16:19.080 --> 16:23.440 And I just believe in God now. But I think every religion still has good things in it. 16:23.440 --> 16:28.340 So the one of the one of the passages that, you know, I remember reading in early my marriage 16:28.340 --> 16:35.080 was Surah al-Bukhra 2.187. And it goes like this. And it's talking about married couples. 16:35.540 --> 16:42.960 They are a clothing, a covering and garment for you. And you are a clothing, covering and garment 16:42.960 --> 16:49.220 for them. And what this metaphor was meant to signify that the spouses provide mutual 16:49.220 --> 16:55.020 protection, comfort, modesty and intimacy. And you act as a shield for each other's faults 16:55.700 --> 17:00.520 and a source of beauty and closeness. You know, and I remembered that very carefully. I was like, 17:01.000 --> 17:05.800 you don't go airing your dirty laundry with everyone else, not even. And when you're in an 17:05.800 --> 17:11.200 abusive relationship, you kind of get isolated. So you get isolated from your French, get 17:11.200 --> 17:16.900 isolated from your family. And then you don't want to talk about these problems because 17:16.900 --> 17:23.640 then you think you're, you're, you're just weak, pathetic, failing. You just want to work harder 17:23.640 --> 17:28.440 making the relationship work. And then sometimes you spend your whole lifetime trying that and 17:28.440 --> 17:33.000 getting nowhere. And sometimes, do you know what, something breaks and you go, I've had enough. 17:33.160 --> 17:34.060 And that's what happened to me. 17:36.660 --> 17:42.780 The, um, that awakening moment, which is, you know, something breaks and you have an 17:42.780 --> 17:49.340 awakening moment is really hard for a lot of people. And it's typically the first step on a 17:49.340 --> 17:54.860 journey that's just as equally hard. Like getting yourself out of that environment is probably 17:54.860 --> 17:59.360 one of the hardest things you'll do. Yeah. Especially when it's psychological abuse. 17:59.680 --> 18:04.920 And as you said, you're being convinced that you are no good, you're useless, 18:05.400 --> 18:10.700 you're the source of all problems. And you have to break that conditioning post your 18:11.340 --> 18:18.220 awakening moment. And it's, um, it takes a level of effort, I think, that is hard to appreciate 18:18.220 --> 18:22.560 and hard to understand. Because when you look at it from the outside, you just go, why don't you 18:22.560 --> 18:26.960 just leave? Like, why don't you just leave? I would never have put up with that. Like what's 18:26.960 --> 18:35.260 going on? And you don't necessarily realize it's actually, it's the old frog in the pot 18:35.260 --> 18:40.900 kind of scenarios more often than not, where, um, these relationships might have started off 18:40.900 --> 18:46.420 looking absolutely fantastic. Oh, beautiful. You know, and myself, for example, um, 18:47.080 --> 18:52.120 my ex-wife, absolutely stunning woman, absolutely stunning woman still is today. 18:52.620 --> 18:56.340 And people would go, Jesus, mate, you're winning at life. And that's what I genuinely 18:56.340 --> 19:02.420 thought along the way. Um, and then it takes time. You know, that, that abuse slowly 19:02.420 --> 19:06.900 starts and you kind of test, she used to test to see how far she could take it. And when it went 19:06.900 --> 19:09.640 a little bit too far, then suddenly she was going, Oh, you know, sorry, sorry, I'll make 19:09.640 --> 19:12.800 them, you know, make everything better and all that kind of stuff. And then it gets worse and 19:12.800 --> 19:17.300 worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse at the time. And, um, I don't know how 19:17.300 --> 19:22.600 it's for you, but I know when I was getting to the back end of that relationship prior to my own 19:22.600 --> 19:28.400 awakening moment, um, things were occurring that I would never in a billion years have 19:28.400 --> 19:35.300 accepted it the first year. Yeah. But in year 10, it was just normal. It was just completely normal. 19:35.760 --> 19:44.760 Year 10. Year 10. Wow. And it was just normal. It was just, um, oh, you know, you know, she's, 19:44.760 --> 19:50.300 I used to do this thing. Um, I used to call it going nuclear where, um, she would have this, 19:50.380 --> 19:55.620 um, I'll give you a silly example. So, uh, she wanted her cup of tea made in a particular 19:55.620 --> 20:00.080 way. So the way her cup of tea had to be made was you have to be standing right next to the kettle 20:00.600 --> 20:04.880 and the moment the kettle boiled, like the millisecond the kettle boiled, you have to pour 20:04.880 --> 20:08.620 it into the cup with the tea bag, then you have to set a timer for exactly three minutes, 20:08.820 --> 20:13.220 then take the tea bag out exactly, uh, three minutes after, not a minute, not, you know, 20:13.220 --> 20:17.500 10 seconds too late or 10 seconds too early, then put it, you know, right amount of, uh, 20:17.580 --> 20:20.340 milk in it and then go hand it to her immediately straight away. Don't delay. 20:20.820 --> 20:23.220 And that's how I like, that's how I like my teammate. 20:23.740 --> 20:30.780 Of course. You know, it's the only way to do it. I swear. The only thing I would say 20:30.780 --> 20:36.920 the only thing I would add is that the, the, the, while it's stewing, while the tea bag 20:36.920 --> 20:41.460 stewing, I like to put a lid over the mug so it doesn't lose its heat and says, 20:41.500 --> 20:43.940 so I think she's a bit slack. I'd be a little bit more. 20:43.940 --> 20:50.840 Very, very slack. Yeah. Um, but if you didn't do it exactly that way, um, all hell would break 20:50.840 --> 20:57.180 loose. You'd go nuclear and going nuclear would be pure rage where absolutely anything and 20:57.180 --> 21:00.980 everything would, um, so the way you stand, the way you smell, the way you kind of walk, 21:01.240 --> 21:04.820 you know, everything you could possibly think of, she would just be screaming and yelling about 21:04.820 --> 21:08.880 like, you know, just destroy everything that you possibly couldn't, you know, have, uh, 21:08.880 --> 21:12.820 wait. Um, and that would be, yeah, okay, that's just another day. Yeah. 21:13.580 --> 21:16.160 The, the, at the time for me, it was like, okay, that's just another day. 21:17.100 --> 21:21.440 Nothing unusual about this. What's, what's the way that, because it being slowly built up 21:21.440 --> 21:25.260 over the decade until it got to a point where it was just another day. 21:28.440 --> 21:33.780 Wow. Right. Let's talk about your book then. Let's, you know, coercive control 21:33.780 --> 21:37.580 and every tactic explained. Can you just talk about it? Like, what are the tactics? 21:37.580 --> 21:42.460 What are the coercive controls? And are you sure you just weren't being a dick? 21:42.880 --> 21:48.060 Did you deserve all this? I mean, tell us, tell us. 21:48.620 --> 21:56.240 Yeah. So I'll talk about the book. Um, I'll predicate it first because, um, when I was 21:56.240 --> 22:02.240 in my own recovery journey, um, like you had started earlier on, where you said, 22:02.240 --> 22:07.080 I, I walked into the relationship with childhood wounds and with some insecurities. 22:07.820 --> 22:13.700 Um, when I started my own journey for healing, um, a lot of the material I was reading or kind 22:13.700 --> 22:17.460 of was like, oh, she did this, she did that, she did this, she did that. And it would muddle 22:17.460 --> 22:23.400 up kind of conversation around triggers versus, um, the way you would start to behave like 22:23.400 --> 22:27.120 forning and fighting all this kind of stuff and what the actual person did. 22:27.860 --> 22:33.380 So, um, my first protocol with this book was to break it down and go, no, 22:33.440 --> 22:38.160 I really need to get a really crystal clear understanding of what did she do? 22:38.980 --> 22:43.900 What did it hit within me? Like, what was it? Was it my childhood wounds? Was it, you know, 22:44.100 --> 22:48.160 poor conditioning? Was it, um, cultural understanding like happy wife, happy life? 22:48.280 --> 22:52.140 What was it that she hit within me? And then how did I behave afterwards? You know, 22:52.140 --> 22:58.200 was I forning? Um, was I fighting? Um, was I just giving her more and more time and more 22:58.200 --> 23:02.160 and more effort? So I ended up with this, um, framework I designed called TTI. 23:02.820 --> 23:10.080 So tactic trigger and impact. And, um, it allowed me to really start to break out, you know, 23:10.140 --> 23:14.140 what exactly was she doing? What behaviors was she doing? What was, you know, 23:14.180 --> 23:17.740 high criticism look like? What did gaslighting look like? What did rage look like? 23:18.540 --> 23:24.980 What did parental alienation look like? What did, you know, and, um, enabling legal bodies look like? 23:25.100 --> 23:29.200 What did maternal superiority look like? I could actually kind of make, um, 23:29.480 --> 23:35.760 make that clearer for myself without getting muddled up around and I was forning and I did 23:35.760 --> 23:39.620 this and I did that. And it was because of my childhood wounds and all that kind of stuff. 23:40.040 --> 23:45.780 So I ended up writing it. Um, I think there's like over a hundred tactics in there 23:46.340 --> 23:52.500 of coercive control. Um, normally is just me kind of working through what the hell happened 23:53.220 --> 23:57.180 in, in my life. And this started well before I started to stand again. 23:57.960 --> 24:05.700 And, um, from there, I started to build it into a real clear taxonomy and let me actually get this 24:05.700 --> 24:11.040 crystal clear because when I got looking for material on it, it's really not that very 24:11.040 --> 24:17.240 clear exactly what the person does and why it works and then how the person behaves afterwards. 24:17.860 --> 24:24.840 So I structured that out. It took me, um, uh, a decade and a bit to live 24:25.500 --> 24:33.360 for what the better term, um, and about three years to write. And there's, um, 24:34.140 --> 24:38.960 probably only one tactic in there that I haven't personally gone through 24:38.960 --> 24:44.040 from a coercive control perspective. So it's all predominantly my lived, lived experience. 24:45.420 --> 24:49.880 Um, supplemented by my therapist at the time, um, who's sorry, he's still my therapist, 24:50.600 --> 24:54.480 uh, who helped me kind of make sense of what was going on in my life. 24:55.020 --> 25:02.320 Um, and my work that I do with violence and abuse. The intent is to support 25:02.960 --> 25:08.620 clinicians and legal practitioners to be able to better understand, um, coercive 25:08.620 --> 25:14.280 control and family violence. It's written from a male lens. So, which is quite deliberate, 25:14.500 --> 25:18.820 deliberate. That's what I understand. That's what I know. So a lot of the way it's written says, 25:19.000 --> 25:23.680 you know, she did this and then he did this as a response. So it's, is that kind of pronounced 25:23.680 --> 25:29.760 all the way through. Um, and a lot of the, you know, helping understand why it works is 25:29.760 --> 25:34.760 all from a male lens. You know, it works because there's these cultural expectations on men. 25:34.760 --> 25:38.960 It works because, um, males tend to come in with these types of mindset. 25:41.960 --> 25:45.520 Can you give us some examples then? Can you give us some examples then? 25:46.600 --> 25:49.060 Yeah. Of the tactics that they use. Just break it down. 25:49.800 --> 25:55.820 Yeah. So I'll give you an example through a TTR chain. So a classic example is, um, 25:55.920 --> 26:02.700 I'll go something soft. So stonewalling. So, you know, the abusive person will 26:02.700 --> 26:09.140 stonewall you. So stone, stonewalling is they, they refuse to engage. And, um, that's 26:09.660 --> 26:14.580 in an abusive environment is typically a tactic to get your victim to start to 26:14.580 --> 26:20.840 fall. So on a TCI chain, it's, um, they are stonewalling. It triggers within you a 26:20.840 --> 26:25.700 fear of abandonment, which is typically a form of childhood wound. And as an impact, 26:25.820 --> 26:29.020 you start to fall. You go, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What do I need to do? 26:29.080 --> 26:31.500 What do I need to do to kind of get everything back together? So that, 26:31.500 --> 26:38.560 that's a kind of classical, um, TCI chain. Um, then you might have things like, um, 26:38.780 --> 26:49.800 maternal superiority, where it kind of establishes, um, I am the mum. I know best for children. 26:50.280 --> 26:54.480 You are a dad. You don't know best because you're not maternal. So that's a form of 26:54.480 --> 27:00.740 maternal superiority. And it triggers in the men, um, the cultural conditioning around 27:00.740 --> 27:07.080 similar types of narratives. And the impact is you withdraw. So I will withdraw and I will, 27:07.120 --> 27:10.580 you know, defer to you when it comes to parenting. That's, that's another class. 27:13.060 --> 27:18.080 Keep going. Keep going buddy. No, seriously, don't stop. Keep going. 27:18.960 --> 27:20.560 You want me to keep going through the whole book? 27:21.320 --> 27:25.700 Um, people, look, can I just say something? Guess always worry. Oh, if I give all the 27:25.700 --> 27:28.900 information in the book, no one's going to buy the book. It's the opposite. The more 27:28.900 --> 27:32.820 information you give, the more trusted you are as a source and more people want that as a book, 27:32.820 --> 27:37.220 then trust me, I know I've had so many people on my show that do this. The more you talk about it, 27:37.240 --> 27:41.300 the better. If you keep it just like, Oh, I'm going to just give a little snippet. It's not 27:41.300 --> 27:46.640 no, keep going. Tell me more. What are the examples? It was more, I've got well over a hundred 27:46.640 --> 27:49.920 of these things. Ah, you don't need to do a hundred, but give me, give me a good 10. 27:50.880 --> 27:55.600 Yeah. So then if I, I'll do them off the cuff rather because I actually got the book 27:55.600 --> 27:58.960 today, um, believe it or not, it came in the mail today. So congratulations. 28:01.380 --> 28:08.720 I'm very, very excited. Um, but if you look at say, um, let's go a really obvious one, 28:08.780 --> 28:15.620 which is reactive abuse. So reactive abuse is something that, um, most men are familiar with. 28:16.380 --> 28:22.720 So reactive abuse in the TTR chain is a stacked version. So you will be insulted, 28:22.720 --> 28:30.140 for example. So that's a form of, um, active abuse. Uh, insults themselves will tend to trigger, um, 28:30.340 --> 28:35.480 a response in you where you, you'd get upset. You go, Hey, this, this is, um, damaging to my 28:35.480 --> 28:41.940 sense of self worth and your impact will be, no, I'm going to respond, um, in a particular way. 28:42.000 --> 28:46.620 And that might go to you a few times. Um, and they'll continue to do that for a while until 28:46.620 --> 28:50.380 you get to this point where you go, no, if this and that you start screaming and yelling, 28:50.380 --> 28:56.460 and then they flip the street and go, I never did this. You're the one who's screaming and yelling. 28:56.740 --> 29:03.420 You've got anger management issues. Um, so that's a classic one that tends to come up quite often 29:03.420 --> 29:10.100 with men. Um, and then another one would be that, that one sounds familiar. You're bringing, 29:10.300 --> 29:16.280 you're bringing back some memories. Uh, my ex-wife used to do this thing. It's called 29:16.280 --> 29:25.140 Davo. Um, which she was absolutely excellent at it. So Davo is, um, a staff version where you've 29:25.140 --> 29:30.080 got a number of different tactics all at once. So you've got it in sequence. So they'll deny, 29:30.300 --> 29:35.140 which is the D and Davo, then they'll attack you, then they'll reverse the victim and offender 29:35.140 --> 29:39.940 role. So you'll come to them, for example, I'll say this to my wife, for example, and go, 29:40.000 --> 29:44.540 Hey, I really didn't like the way you're insulting me in front of my friends. And then 29:44.540 --> 29:50.620 I never did that. So that's denial. And then attack, which is you always do blah, blah, blah to me. 29:51.220 --> 29:55.820 And then reverse the victim and offender. I'm so upset by what you did. You never apologize for 29:55.820 --> 30:00.600 anything. And before you realize what's going on, suddenly you're apologizing for having, 30:01.420 --> 30:09.440 having done this thing. And, um, my ex-wife was, uh, I have never met someone who's more 30:09.440 --> 30:14.820 adept at Davo than my ex-wife. You know, flipped around and apologizing for things constantly. 30:16.400 --> 30:23.400 Um, but then go back to some of the tactics. So minimizing, um, your thoughts, opinions, 30:23.460 --> 30:29.640 and values as this is a very common tactic as well. So if you raise a topic and say, 30:29.680 --> 30:35.560 I think we should do X, then a, uh, abuser will tend to minimize that. 30:36.040 --> 30:40.560 You don't know what you're talking about. Um, oh, look, this isn't really your 30:40.560 --> 30:44.960 era of expertise. You don't know what you're talking about. Leave this to me. I will do it. 30:45.100 --> 30:51.440 And that tends to trigger a fear response because you know how that conversation tends to go, 30:51.920 --> 30:57.840 and you'll just defer. Okay. I'll leave that for you. Um, and then you'll have, uh, other 30:57.840 --> 31:03.260 tactics like, um, threats. So let's talk threats for a second because threats are really, 31:03.260 --> 31:11.400 really fascinating ones where, um, an abuser will, um, threaten you with punitive action. 31:12.560 --> 31:18.160 Um, I will take the kids. I will do this. I will do that, um, as a response. 31:18.880 --> 31:23.500 And especially for parents that that threat becomes quite significant. 31:24.340 --> 31:29.340 And it triggers within you. Um, obviously this year of loss, um, I'm going to lose 31:29.340 --> 31:34.440 my kids and you go back to, you know, morning, what, what do I need to make this 31:34.440 --> 31:40.160 and the problem with those types of threats is they tend to be quite incredible. Um, and then, 31:40.740 --> 31:47.300 um, the other one, I'll tell you about this one, I meant, because I think it's, um, 31:48.040 --> 31:55.740 um, it's, I'm sorry. Um, restriction of space and, um, liberty denial. So restriction of 31:55.740 --> 32:05.460 space is, um, an abusive partner will tend to, um, dominate a house and dominate the, the face. So, 32:06.080 --> 32:15.240 um, in my house, for example, uh, there was no safe space that was mine. So she had the living 32:15.240 --> 32:21.280 room. She watched the TV. I was never allowed to sit down and watch the TV. Um, I would be 32:21.280 --> 32:25.140 relegated to this kind of small little area within my office, but then she'd kind of 32:25.140 --> 32:28.440 dominate that as well, which is, oh, this is the only clean room. I've got to do this and then, 32:28.440 --> 32:34.940 you know, kind of dominate that. So restriction of space. And, um, you would end up with, um, 32:35.100 --> 32:41.100 this sense of, you know, getting, uh, less and less agency. Like I, I don't have, um, 32:42.280 --> 32:46.660 uh, place within my own home. Like this isn't my house. I don't have a place to hear. 32:47.040 --> 32:51.740 Um, I go where I'm allowed to go and I go where I'm told to go. Um, and it creates this 32:51.740 --> 32:58.400 kind of impact of, um, uh, difference. So I will defer to the abuser or go where I'm allowed to. 32:59.080 --> 33:04.440 Um, or liberty deprivation. So liberty deprivation, most, most common example of that is sleep 33:04.440 --> 33:11.560 deprivation. So, um, an abusive person, I'll get into, I'll, I'll shift topic in a second, but 33:12.320 --> 33:18.480 um, my, uh, I didn't have a bed to sleep in, but many years I used to have to sleep in the 33:18.480 --> 33:23.840 camp and, um, should do this thing where she would come and smash it in at like 33:23.840 --> 33:29.060 two o'clock in the morning and just start screaming. And, uh, it would create this 33:29.060 --> 33:34.940 environment where you, you would never get a proper night's sleep because even when 33:34.940 --> 33:39.440 she didn't do that, you were still hyper vigilant while asleep. It was still hyper aware. 33:39.760 --> 33:43.940 Like you'd have the ears up. You'd be half kind of looking out to living room because 33:43.940 --> 33:48.060 that's where I used to sleep. Um, just keeping an eye out on, oh, can I hear the footsteps 33:48.060 --> 33:53.740 coming? You know, can I see, you know, can I see her coming? Um, do I need to get myself, um, 33:53.860 --> 34:02.500 super awake, um, at that particular point? And, um, uh, you do this thing where, uh, if you, 34:02.980 --> 34:08.300 I'm going to shift out of tactics for a second and just talk about this, where, uh, if you 34:08.300 --> 34:17.220 weren't instantaneously awake and responding as calm and accurately as possible, when you got 34:17.220 --> 34:21.980 woken up rudely at two o'clock in the morning, then all hell would break loose. Yeah. So 34:21.980 --> 34:27.920 you'd create this, uh, hyper vigilance or form of hyper vigilance where you would always be 34:27.920 --> 34:34.780 aware what was happening around you, um, and always be performing at 110%. 34:34.780 --> 34:38.480 Even when you were trying to sleep, you'd always have to be ready to perform. 34:38.980 --> 34:44.880 Um, otherwise all hell would break loose. And those times, by the way, this sounds very familiar. 34:45.140 --> 34:52.580 Anyway, carry on. Um, I'm very sorry for that. That's all right. It is what it is. 34:53.440 --> 34:57.120 It is what it is. Hey, you know, there's this thing, I'm going to shift the 34:57.120 --> 35:04.040 topics of that. It's okay. Um, when I started speaking up about what was happening to me, 35:05.060 --> 35:08.640 um, I had a couple of things that happened. I don't know if this happened with you as well. 35:09.480 --> 35:16.440 Um, I would talk to some guys and, um, they would struggle to have the conversation and then 35:16.440 --> 35:20.840 they would vanish from my life. So, you know, I'd open up and they go, oh, that's rough, 35:20.940 --> 35:24.400 mate. And that would be the last time I ever spoke to them. Then I'd have these other guys 35:24.400 --> 35:28.760 I'd speak to who almost always said, you're describing my life right now. 35:30.460 --> 35:36.900 Um, and I had that conversation more often than I ever expected to have once I started opening up. 35:37.120 --> 35:41.000 And I'll be talking to these people going, oh, this is what's happening. You know, I'm, 35:41.060 --> 35:45.620 you know, I'm in a really rough place at the moment. Um, you'll have to bear with me. And 35:45.620 --> 35:52.660 they go, I hate you, Tim. Um, that's where I'm at right now. Um, I don't know how to make 35:52.660 --> 35:56.700 my way out either. So if you figure out, let me know. Did you have the same? 35:58.580 --> 36:02.480 I didn't speak to that many people at all. I didn't speak to anybody until I decided 36:02.480 --> 36:05.360 I've had enough. And the first person I spoke to was my dad. 36:06.640 --> 36:07.400 How did he respond? 36:08.680 --> 36:13.620 He was very supportive. I didn't want to go into it too much. But anyway, 36:14.760 --> 36:17.760 yeah, he talked about him and his relationship with my mum. 36:17.760 --> 36:23.720 And he was like, you need to get out. So anyway, I just want to quickly, I've got so many questions 36:23.720 --> 36:29.060 now. Um, that was a really good rundown of some examples, by the way. Um, I might come back to 36:29.060 --> 36:33.120 you some for some more, but it's just, they're fascinating. And I think they're really insightful. 36:33.420 --> 36:38.860 But do you think men tend to be, when men are abusive, they tend to be more physically 36:38.860 --> 36:43.980 abusive and women more psychological? Or are they all the same? And they come in 36:43.980 --> 36:44.880 different shapes and forms? 36:47.800 --> 36:54.080 Yeah, short answer to that is I don't know. The longer answer is 36:56.680 --> 37:05.420 men tend to express more physically than women. And I know when they do get, 37:06.340 --> 37:10.100 even if they're a victim, so victim and or perpetrator, they tend to express their 37:10.100 --> 37:17.080 emotions in a much more physical way than women do. So when a man is a victim and he's been through 37:17.080 --> 37:24.520 hell, you know, he'll tend to express that in a very angry way. Same with a perpetrator as well. 37:26.120 --> 37:27.960 But I don't know the answer to that. 37:28.480 --> 37:33.380 Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, I'll look my, I was a victim of physical abuse as well. 37:34.280 --> 37:37.800 I'm sorry to give my ex could get very angry. 37:39.220 --> 37:47.180 More angry than I've seen any guy get angry. Anyway, but I know equally, someone whose husband was 37:48.020 --> 37:51.400 very manipulative and using the exact same tactics you're describing. 37:52.200 --> 37:59.560 You know, deprived her of money. Never did any work around the house, 37:59.560 --> 38:04.280 dashed at her all the time, said he would do things, but then didn't and denied that he ever said he 38:04.280 --> 38:08.320 would. You know, all these psychological tools that you're just describing like very similar, 38:08.780 --> 38:13.040 you know, someone confided in me that like, yeah, that's where X was like. And I'm like, 38:13.180 --> 38:19.820 and it's like, I don't know, like, I think, yes, society just expects men to be the 38:19.820 --> 38:24.360 bad guys in every relationship and abusers. And, you know, there's a lot of 38:25.620 --> 38:29.500 talk about supporting women. And I think it's right because I think for a long time, 38:29.520 --> 38:35.200 women were treated very badly in society. That's that's a fact. But you can't argue 38:35.200 --> 38:39.640 that's the case in the last few decades. I mean, I think women, women have got plenty of rights 38:39.640 --> 38:45.520 and men have been on the receiving end. There's a war on men. There's a war on strong men. 38:45.840 --> 38:50.160 And Jason Kristoff, who's just been on my podcast at a documentary called Planet Mind 38:50.160 --> 38:57.740 Control. And he talked about three major agendas that are pushed in by Hollywood and TV. And the 38:57.740 --> 39:04.840 third, the third one he talked about is emasculating men and, you know, making them weak, 39:05.280 --> 39:10.680 pathetic, helpless, hopeless. And I think that is the case. There is an agenda. There's an 39:10.680 --> 39:18.520 attack on men today. They do not want strong male figures. And strong male figures doesn't equal 39:18.520 --> 39:25.300 toxic men. I actually think strong men are are really good for society because they're good. They 39:25.300 --> 39:30.400 have integrity. They have morals. They're protective. They're caring. And it's actually 39:30.400 --> 39:39.840 weak men who are cruel and abusive. Anyway, so going back to to the women thing and men, 39:40.680 --> 39:46.120 you know, I just feel like right now a lot of people who are women might get upset hearing 39:46.120 --> 39:50.560 this, but there is a subgroup of women who are very sympathetic and they are mothers. 39:51.560 --> 39:57.640 Yep. So I've had I've had several mothers talk to me about how their baby boys, you know, 39:57.720 --> 40:03.560 who are in the 30s are being abused by these very attractive, beautiful women. 40:04.100 --> 40:08.380 And, and, you know, and they open up their hearts to me and they're and I want to cry 40:08.380 --> 40:14.540 because I've got a baby boy. And, and if I and if my baby boy went through the abuse that 40:14.540 --> 40:18.180 I did or any of the abuse that, you know, I hear these mothers tell me about, ah, man, 40:18.580 --> 40:23.280 my heart would weep. I'd be like, I just wanted to be happy little boy. I mean, my baby boy is 40:23.280 --> 40:29.440 such a love, such a good boy. And, and these little good boys turn out to be good men. 40:30.060 --> 40:35.140 I was one of them. I am one of them. I'm sure you're one of them. But these mothers have 40:35.140 --> 40:39.500 confided in me and tell me like, you know, awful, these women, because they're 40:39.500 --> 40:44.040 bitchy. She goes, I'm not allowed to see my son. I'm not allowed to see my grandchildren. 40:44.040 --> 40:48.100 So they get, they get cut off. They can't see their children. They can't see their son. 40:48.580 --> 40:52.680 And when they do get to see them, they're not allowed to show affection. One person was 40:52.680 --> 40:56.600 saying, I'm not allowed to say I love you to my son in front of her because she gets upset. 40:57.580 --> 41:04.480 And you're just really bizarre, controlling, manipulative kind of thing. But yeah, I'm, 41:04.980 --> 41:10.780 I think when you're a mother and you see your little baby boy getting abused, 41:10.780 --> 41:13.940 you go, you get it. You see it. Do you know what I mean? 41:14.820 --> 41:22.260 You feel helpless as well as a mother because you're desperately, you tend to desperately 41:22.260 --> 41:27.340 want to try to help. And when you do, especially when they're really lost in coercive control, 41:28.400 --> 41:33.220 the son will tend to actually reject you because that's the narrative and script that 41:33.220 --> 41:39.260 they've been preconditioned with by their abusive partner. When I am, I'll tell you 41:39.260 --> 41:43.920 about this because when I first launched Stand Again, I had three types of people who reached 41:43.920 --> 41:50.920 out to me. The first was women who were pissed off that I was doing this. And to be honest, 41:51.020 --> 41:54.900 I would respond to them and say, Hey, look, you know, this is an agenda issue. I'm just here 41:54.900 --> 41:58.700 to support men. And they would go, Yeah, okay, fair enough. But they'd actually go, Yeah, 41:58.740 --> 42:05.200 okay, that's fair enough. The second group was mums. And I had so many mums reach out going, 42:05.880 --> 42:12.460 How do I reach my son? I know he's lost in an abusive relationship. He's been isolated from us. 42:12.620 --> 42:16.420 I'm trying to reach out to him and he keeps rejecting, rejecting us. I can see what's 42:16.420 --> 42:20.980 happening like he's being financially controlled. He's being screamed and yelled at. He's being 42:20.980 --> 42:25.320 told that he is absolutely useless and pathetic. But he's not his good boy. I love him very 42:25.320 --> 42:30.660 much. And every time I try to help, I keep hitting either roadblocks, she keeps either 42:30.660 --> 42:38.600 blocking or twisting it. Or he actually pushes back and goes, No, no, you're not good for me. 42:38.900 --> 42:42.620 And she'll be like, I don't even know where that came from. Like, where did that even come from? 42:44.100 --> 42:50.600 So I ended up writing a book just on that topic as well. So I got another book out, 42:50.660 --> 42:56.720 which is called reaching him, which is specifically for mothers as well, to help them 42:56.720 --> 43:02.220 figure out what they need to do to kind of get into that right. Because I know from myself, 43:03.140 --> 43:09.800 and I don't know about you. But there were points when I was in that relationship with my own wife, 43:10.380 --> 43:16.240 where if anybody had actually told me, Hey, this isn't good for you, I would have actively rejected 43:16.240 --> 43:21.220 it. I would have gone, No, no, no, you're wrong. And I would have actually shored up with my 43:21.220 --> 43:25.740 wife and gone back to her God, Oh, you wouldn't believe what so and so said. They said, 43:25.740 --> 43:28.860 this, this isn't this, because I would have been at that point kind of born and kind of make 43:28.860 --> 43:31.980 all that, you know, she was truly on board and she would have been right there beside me, 43:32.000 --> 43:36.420 making sure I was excluding my family, which I already had, you know, isolated myself from 43:36.860 --> 43:46.500 my family. So I think there's this odd little belief, I think, where people think women 43:46.500 --> 43:52.660 don't care about men as well, and about the suffering for male victims. And I actually 43:52.660 --> 43:58.140 don't think that's true. Because almost all of the women I've spoken to as a through stand again, 43:58.240 --> 44:03.460 have all been extremely supportive of helping men and they themselves can see the disparity 44:04.020 --> 44:08.120 going, Why isn't that so in Australia, there's no funding for male victims of family violence, 44:08.260 --> 44:14.180 I'm fully self funded. Whereas, female victims, there's lots of funding out there, you know, 44:14.200 --> 44:21.080 they're throwing grants all over the place. But again, it's not all women who go, 44:21.080 --> 44:25.260 they don't exist, it's no such thing as male victims, we're not going to support them. 44:25.520 --> 44:31.560 There's a hell of a lot who do. Do you know what percentage of, by the way, I want to talk at some 44:31.560 --> 44:35.740 point as well about solutions, like when you're this guy. And actually, I think so much of 44:35.740 --> 44:41.500 this talk applies to women as well, women might resonate, Oh, my ex, my, my, my male partner 44:41.500 --> 44:45.840 was a husband was abusive, like this, my boyfriend was abusive. So I actually think 44:45.840 --> 44:51.940 a lot, there's so much crossover. But you know, you know, we'll talk about the solutions in a second, 44:52.020 --> 44:59.620 but looking at the percentage of people abused in a domestic relationship, do you know how many 44:59.620 --> 45:07.300 are women and how many are men? Is it 50 50? I'm going to give a personal opinion here. 45:08.160 --> 45:10.620 Yeah. Whatever stat is out there, I don't believe it. 45:11.880 --> 45:17.840 Okay. So in Australia, it's one in three. So as in one in three, male, male victims. 45:18.780 --> 45:23.780 I don't believe it because, and this is this is a personal opinion, you have to test this with 45:23.780 --> 45:32.020 research. Men don't talk about it. Very rarely do they talk about it. Men tend to not want to 45:32.020 --> 45:37.520 show that they are weak. So again, they, they, you know, hide their shame by not, 45:37.520 --> 45:42.840 not raising a, I'm an abusive relationship. They'll tend to just go, I've solved the problem 45:42.840 --> 45:48.120 by moving on. I'm not raising it. Yeah. The second thing is, which I think is really critical 45:48.120 --> 45:57.860 is the way victims tend to be identified is all done through a female in. So the tells that the 45:58.780 --> 46:04.660 the presentations are all written from the way that you would expect a female victim to respond 46:05.280 --> 46:10.960 is different to the way men tend to present when they're victims. Men tend to present completely 46:10.960 --> 46:17.180 differently. They might present with anger. They might present with complete shutdown. They might 46:17.180 --> 46:21.920 present with, I'm in problem solving mode now. Yeah. I'm now in problem solving mode. 46:22.220 --> 46:27.260 That's not the way female victims tend to present. Men don't present with huge amount of 46:27.260 --> 46:32.460 fear either, which is really, really interesting. They'll tend to go, I was, went through this 46:32.460 --> 46:37.920 situation and now I'm trying to figure out my way out, but they don't show fear because 46:37.920 --> 46:43.000 from very, very young age, men are told not to show fear. So they don't show the fear, 46:43.080 --> 46:50.040 whereas fear is a key indicator of being a victim. So personally, I don't believe the stats. 46:50.740 --> 46:58.000 I suspect that if we actually revisited the way that we assess who's, who's a victim and 46:58.000 --> 47:03.300 who's a perpetrator and assessed and made sure that we were actually crystal clear about what 47:03.300 --> 47:06.740 a male presentation looks like as a victim, I think those stats would be completely different. 47:07.200 --> 47:11.740 I think it's something to go, holy shit, I'm a language. There's actually a hell of a lot more 47:11.740 --> 47:15.640 male victims than we realize. 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