There's news stories that we watch sometimes in the news and sometimes we cheer and sometimes we're upset
but a lot of times we never get the whole story and a lot of times we may not be seeing all the
repercussions that are taking place in that story. Well, this particular news story you saw it's up in Minnesota
It's not the one that's really on flames right now
It's the other one the other one about the fraud like the biggest fraud that has ever been discovered like billions of dollars being stolen
For fake daycares you remember this one growing investigation into a fraud scheme involving taxpayer money
That was supposed to be spent on social services a viral video appears to expose that alleged fraud at several Somali operated
Childcare centers in Minneapolis the business is licensed for 99 kids
But when independent reporter Nick Shirley went by this month the place appeared completely empty
There's no one here right now
It's midday on a weekday the video which alleges the daycare is fake says the facility had received four million dollars in state funds
This comes as walls as administration faces allegations of widespread fraud
Connected to state social services. Hello. We'd like to ask where's the money's going answer the question are their children
There's no children inside this building FBI director Cash Patel claims that case is just the tip of a very large iceberg
Now he says he's surging more resources to Minnesota to investigate the Trump administration says it is freezing federal funding for
Childcare in the state and will require
Justification and a receipt or photo evidence from all providers who receive the funding nationwide. I
Think a lot of us were like good. Jeez. I mean our taxpayer money
Going to criminals billions
I mean when they they're starting to talk about the numbers across
Minnesota billions tens of billions maybe hundreds of billions look at this epicenter of fraud Minnesota's empty stomachs fake autism
Therapy and scandal that could stop
Could top two billion dollars wouldn't you love to have that money back in your pocket?
So you could spend it in the right place
But you know, who would that hurt? You know, they shut it down good shut it down
Well, what about all of those daycares and autism centers that we're doing it right that have real children inside of there
It's affecting them too and that has been brought to our attention by Jennifer Larson who runs one of the biggest
Autism facilities up in Minnesota. This is her testifying on that issue
My name is Jennifer Larson. I'm the founder and CEO of Holland Center in Minnesota
I've been an autism provider for over 20 years and started the organization for my son
What started as a small program grew over two decades into four locations that families rely on not just for therapy
But for hope routine and survival and this week Holland and other programs all over Minnesota are collapsing
Not because we committed fraud
But because a crime ring was allowed to operate inside Minnesota's service system and the government's clumsy response is now destroying
Legitimate long-standing providers and devastating families that we serve when services disappear families do not just simply adjust
They face a crisis
For more than two decades Holland has served hundreds of children year after year employed hundreds of clinicians and staff
operated under yearly onsite audits
inspections and documentation oversight
Delivered real services to real children every day. We've always complied with everything the system required
Yet within the last month the state has withheld over four hundred thousand dollars and Medicaid funds for my own program
And that number grows every single day what happened in Minnesota had nothing to do with the ethical long-standing autism providers
What did happen was organized criminal networks that exploited autism services by opening fake centers
Billing for children that did not exist billing for services never delivered and stealing millions of taxpayer dollars in the process
These are not minor compliance issues. They are criminal enterprises
Families trusted that the government was protecting the integrity of the system
It failed now instead of doing the obvious thing and targeting criminal actors
The response has been to freeze everyone's payments that decision does not punish the criminals
It punishes innocent children and families autism therapy cannot be paused without consequences
Loss of services can erase years of progress in weeks and abrupt disruption of services can cause lifelong
Consequences in these children. This is not abstract harm. It is daily trauma for families already carrying an extraordinary burden
I built Holland for 20 years
Families built their lives
Around the care that we provide
All of that is risk of destruction today
Not by fraud but by clumsy government response that failed to distinguish between criminals and caregivers
But families and children should never pay the price for government failure
Thank you
Well, there's repercussions to everything that happens in government and this is one of those stories
It's my honor and pleasure to be joined now by one of the most powerful autism moms. I've ever met Jennifer Larson
Jennifer hi, it's it's great to have you on I wish it was under better circumstances. This is a really really terrible story
So I guess my first question would be as this fraud story
Started breaking loose all over Minnesota
People taking advantage making up autism centers or a center of it that had nobody in it and things like that
Did you foresee as that was happening? Uh-oh
This could cause a problem. Did you put you did you imagine you could get pulled into this?
You know at first when a lot of the center started popping up
I thought great because I did the same thing for my son
I started a center because I wanted a program that was right for him and there wasn't enough programs
And we've had a waiting list for five years
So I was very supportive when I started to see some of these centers pop up out of the blue
and in fact some of them reached out to me for support and advice and
To consult and that was years ago
But then as it continued and where we went from, you know, a few of them to 300 to 400 centers
It seemed there was a red flag there
There is a high prevalence of
Autism in the Somali community and so it didn't raise a red flag right away
But after and it's not just Somalis, but after 300 to 400 centers. It didn't make a lot of sense
What was going on in our state?
And so as this, you know, just a couple of weeks ago is this really started breaking loose
You then must have been caught by surprise that there was that level of fraud taking place
In and around you in the state of Minnesota
Everybody in Minnesota heard about the daycare fraud probably ten years ago
And then it just kind of went away on the news and I you know good for Nick Shirley
But you know, I don't have the time or energy to go investigate every autism center
So I I'm not going or he did. I'm not a you know, citizen journalist
But I don't I don't think most Minnesotans are surprised by the fraud
I think they're surprised by the level and magnitude of the fraud
because
Living here. It's kind of become one of those
unfortunate
Issues in Minnesota that just exists and where we live
So any sense it yeah, I get what you're saying and we have to be careful. There's you know
Accusations of racial issues around this that get tagged on this which aren't right
And I do want to point out because you lightly mentioned it
Early on in my investigation as I was traveling with Vax one of the anomalies that really stood out was this massive
Autism spike in the Somali community up in Minnesota
I've said the CDC should have built one of the biggest centers in the world inside of
Minnesota since the that Somali, you know
Group had the highest rates recorded at that moment anywhere in the world. It didn't make sense
They were my understanding is they were bringing in, you know, which doctors to try and do
Seances on their children because they had never seen it. They didn't have a word for autism
So that's a story that you and I have discussed
Prior to all of this that's also at the center of this discussion
But unfortunately that problem was taken advantage of and then turned into this giant money
Wandering theft in Minnesota
Yes, and it's it's it's nothing to do with their community
I think you know that many of our advocates Andy Wakefield Mark Blacks on myself
Patty Carroll have tried our hardest to help that community as much as we can and serve that community
So there's nothing to do with that. It's just that and they started to pop up
I didn't think it was the problem that it was becoming because of the high prevalence is all I'm trying to say
It gave cover, right? It was like that this is happening for a reason and it should look we need that many centers
This is the thing and when we really talk about it people have no idea how many autism centers
We need in this country. We have no idea how big an issue this is because if it's not right inside of our household
We don't know what it's like to take care of these kids and that's the work that you're doing
So how many facilities do you have and how many?
Children and people are you treating like you're you know working with that have autism?
I have four locations and we have about 200 kids and some of them come
You know as their school replacement basically that's what my son did for many years
And then others are kind of inpatient or outpatient kind of going in and out for speech out here
Whatever they need behavior services or consulting
So yeah about 200 I serve right now and then I have about 115 employees
Wow, I mean so it's a I mean to me
That's a big operation certainly bigger than the work that we do here with I can
You've been dedicated to it one of the as I've said before one of the most dedicated people in this movement on this issue
So when this happened when they suddenly just froze funds did they essentially just blanket?
I mean it was I guess when I saw the headline I was like they can't really just be freezing everything
That's just probably a headline, but they literally the Trump administration
It was a federal decision to just freeze or his HHS freezes all childhood payments to Minnesota after viral fraud
Allegations, did you get a call? Did you get a warning? How did you find out?
So here's the confusion. I think that was for the daycares, okay that the Trump administration did that
What happened to us was actually a wall's decision. Oh really 14? Yes 14 categories
Of Medicaid funding 13 of which are disabled children and adults its transportation
It's adult housing. It's all 13 of the 14 like I said are disabled he picked 14 categories and said stop
We're gonna put these through pre-payment review. It's called at Optum's AI and
Optum an insurance company who you know their job is to deny claims
suddenly got all our claims and
I mean until today and I did get some money today the last date of service that I got paid on was December 5th
They withheld all the claims for everybody regardless of who they were that I've been in business over 20 years that I've had audits every
Year on site. I've been like it and all the other providers like me
I mean, I know I know a lot of really great providers in the trade group. I'm in and everybody got
All their claims got held for no reason at all. No, there was no
I'm sure there's no issue, but they just held everybody because they didn't know what they were doing and then
Went two cycles and we started to raise alarms, obviously because my payroll is 250,000 every two weeks
Wow, and this is a yeah, and it's a company that's then margins. I've never paid myself in 20 years
It's not we're not like rolling in dough to be able to like bake
That just gives you a sense of the cost of autism, which is something I've talked about before people have no idea
That's for for 200 kids 150 outpatient
So 350 all in
$250,000 every two weeks
Yeah, and so my Medicaid payment basically covers my payroll and then the rest of it has to cover my rent and anything else that I have
To pay for right you have all your business expenses. So when they cut off when they cut us off
You know, we can't make our payroll and a lot of the companies here have already gone under
They've just had to shut down I last week finally said look who wants to go on unpaid leave because we can't afford this
We finally did get paid some this week for the first two cycles, but now they're two weeks behind
So I'm gonna always be $300,000 in debt
Because they're just hope withholding payments. Well, and let's be honest
We've been working on this story with you for the last few days
You literally said on your show on Thursday if this payment doesn't come through
I'm going to have to shut the doors on this facility
So we're lucky that the story is not as gruesome as we were planning on thank God
I want to you know say that thank God some of that funding came through this very morning
But I want to just talk about for people that don't know what that would be like
I mean, I think we just had a freeze here in Austin, Texas and our kids weren't in school for five days
You know, is that you know when you shut down a school?
Even if it's for short periods of time with children that are autistic or on the spectrum
What does that do for that type of?
Person
Like I said in my it's a complete crisis
And you know, I've had parents calling me crying. What can we do? What how can we help and you know, they're doing the best
There's not a lot they can do because it's just such a big gap of money
You know, and they're scared to death. I have some pair. I have a parent whose child has been discharged from five other locations
And now is spelling at my location and doing wonderfully and they're scared to death and these these kids
They don't they they need the stability there, you know, their whole day
You know, they get their behaviors their aggression and everything goes off the rails when they don't have their routines
Yeah, I know that I'm a mom, you know, I mean, I know my son and he's pretty chill sometimes
But you know when these kids they have their routine and they know what they need and they they need to have that stability
I mean that that routine is part of what you work on right is is getting them into a routine if that routine breaks
In some instances, you know, I was just talking to some folks that work here
With us that you know have children at home that are dealing with this
They're like once you break the routine sometimes you have to start all over again a year's work or more
You're back to ground zero trying to build back the trust and all of those issues
So, you know, let me ask a harder question because as we sit here watching all this fraud taking place
How easy is it to commit fraud in Minnesota?
Is it just like nobody's paying attention to the amount of money you're bringing in because I know that you're on
The up and up as you said you're buried, you know, I've seen your facility
It's incredible the work that you do
But obviously you have an insight none of us have is there just a laxadaisical government there that just throws money at you
And never asks a question
I've talked to my billing people about this because with all this pre-payment review
I really wanted to understand in-depth each of our claims because they were being held and
My billing people will say there's no way this didn't happen
Without you know help because if we bill
Maybe 15 minutes on accident for a child over the allotted time we get flagged
Which rarely happens, but sometimes you know, you make a little error
How they were billing for kids that didn't exist
How they were billing 24 hours a day with one therapist with eight kids
How they didn't have on-site audits like we had every single year somebody comes in sits down and says
I want to see these files of these kids for this time on this day
And then they want to see the kids and if they're not there you you know
Well, this kid's sick and you need to say where is the kid?
So the amount of scrutiny we go through on a daily basis for 20 plus years
To make sure that every single thing we have to bill when we bill we have to document every 15 minutes
And so I don't know. I mean it's
It's astounding
It's to say the least
That this was allowed to happen
with three to four hundred
Centers that weren't serving children with disabilities
And what could you think about a more awful thing to be doing than pretending to serve disabled children?
I can't and I you know, I know you're being careful
But what it sounds like to me is
If you are having to have scrutiny over every 15 minutes that's happening with a child
They know if the child's been sick or missed a day and they're all over you
How as you put it
Is billions of dollars flowing into centers that have no kids in it and some kid with a video camera
Can prove that that looks like government corruption
That looks suspect and I hope an investigation gets into any government officials that are involved in that in your state
In every state in this country. It is time to clean this stuff up
I mean, you know, we're all it's hard for a lot of people out there
Especially parents that are you know footing the bill, you know, even the medicare medicare doesn't cover all of the things
It takes as you know to raise a child with autism
I mean, it's it's an astronomical expense
Let alone just what it takes to be at home to not be able to get to your job at times
All of the way that it affects you and to think that you're paying taxes that are just going to
Fraud like this. It's it's really disturbing
So
Is there light then today as as you're seeing these payments you're going to be behind
You know something I can't imagine 300 000 every two weeks. It's a lot of money
But is there communication opening up? Do you feel like they're going to get this fixed?
I think dhs
There was a hearing yesterday and they're trying to say that they're up to date on their billings
Which they're not because we're all two weeks behind
I think they it was a knee jerk reaction
They didn't actually think about the collateral damage
They didn't think about the fact that we can't bankroll 90 days of payroll
We are you know that this isn't this isn't
Well, who can I don't know what industry can bankroll 90 days of payroll
But you know, I think they are actually seeing the light and regretting what they've done and I hope they reverse it
I did get the first two cycles like I said, but
Uh, it was one was over the holiday. So it was lower. Anyway, um, I'm still in trouble though
Because all my landlords at least gave us reprieve like january. They said, okay, we get it
But now on my biggest center
I owe a hundred thousand dollars in rent because I didn't pay january and I need february
That's a hundred thousand dollars right there that I don't have because I didn't get that I'm
behind 300
And so it's a catch-up game that's going to be really hard to catch up on. I mean, I do have a little breathing room
Like you said, it's not like I'm closing on monday now
but
It's not going to be an easy road unless they actually repair the damage that they're doing to us daily because every day
I I found more behind you've been deeply involved in politics
It's one of the things when I met you you were a founder of the canary party and attempt to sort of bring this autism issue into politics
To have politicians discussing it. You and I have gone to state capitals
Deeply involved with the republican party. I think I can say that you've been you know, I think your name is on enough things
I can say that
Safely was this a learning experience just about government? I mean big government and what happens
Is it hard to fix problems like this like fraud?
Or do you just think this is just total ineptitude?
I'm just scared that it could happen again
You know, I mean
Having a business and it's interesting and I try not to read comments on articles and things where I'm things are posted
That you know, if you do rely on the government for it's for me
It's 60 of what we bring in and they can just blanket pull it out like that from you
I I just don't know if it's how
I can feel comfortable going forward in an industry where that can happen
Well, I don't know why it could happen again. They can just say no, we're not going to pay you again and and then what do you do?
um, so I I think I think I what what it taught me is
um
Well, it's taught me a lot actually and it scares me it scares me a lot for minnesota and a lot of the states
california and a lot of the blue states because
If anything can be learned from this for the states that haven't
Pulled their medicaid is
Don't do what minnesota did and don't shut down the real people who are
Surveying real children and real adults and have real
Disabilities don't do that do something else if there's any lesson to be learned from this regardless of what happens with me
But that's that's what I I think I think it's government
Isn't paying attention to the people and it like again, it wasn't it wasn't cms that did this
It was governor walls that did this and that keeps kind of getting confused unfortunately
Yeah, I didn't I glad I we cleared that up because I didn't have that right. I was like bobby
Where are you at? What are you doing? This is one of our own
Bobby I'm texting bobby too. I'm like, come on somebody help me help me out here
Speaking of bobby
Speaking of bobby, let's move to I think probably the greatest headline of the week
Um, is the new inter agency
autism
Coordinating committee sitting with you at that hearing behind you was your son kaden
Um, who has has been with you all along the way
He is now one of the members of a government agency that's going to be helping to decide
Where billions of dollars in funding around the autism issue is going to go
Uh, kaden larson is a non-speaking adult with autism is currently enrolled at normandale community college in minnesota studying mathematics
Kaden serves as a board member of children with autism deserve education
Which connects families with grants for medical service education therapy larson also works the communications for all and spellers freedom
Foundation which aim to bring spelling and typing as a method of communication and education to socio economically challenged communities
and public schools this is one of the great stories
Of all time. I mean, you know, let's just talk about spellers for a second. You had a son
He would walk with you. I met him always beautiful
Beautiful smile, but I didn't you know, you know, where I want to say was it five or six years ago?
He we didn't know what his communication level was or
What his education level was I don't want to misstate the amount of years
We're in because i'm losing track of time, but describe prior to spellers where you were at with kaden
It's 2020 um right when covered was hitting when we started spelling, but um
Prior to that, uh, you know, I always knew he was in there. I just couldn't reach him
I believed he was there, but he had no way to communicate even with an ipad even you know the buttons
He just never got it. Um, they thought he had the intellect of a four-year-old. That's what you know, psych testing would tell me
um, and so no, you know, I I spent 20 years just guessing what he wanted and
you know, I'm trying to make it through um, and he's lovely and and this is uh, you know
spelling started in 2020
and um
And you know this del it's saved his life and I was speaking with people about that about his cancer in 2022
um, but let's just a little bit because this is I mean, so he
Basically told you I'm having issues that you wouldn't have known
Otherwise right is able to communicate
Well, he had some issues during his cancer that if he couldn't tell me
Um, he that weren't presenting a fever that he would have died and his oncologist is on saying that because
He had infections that hurt, you know to urinate another thing and he and if he couldn't tell me mom this
You know, I feel this way he would have died because he had no white count
Um, yeah, so no, he see he um, yeah, he's a he's a trooper and he is so proud to be on iac
You should see him this morning. It's so so absolutely over the top. I couldn't be more proud also, but
Yeah, well, it's an amazing story
It's a great team of people that that bobby kennedy has put together there so many of our friends that you know some great scientists doctors
Um, you know, there's there's many that i'm sure wish they could be on there
I don't want to say it is a dream team. There's some people like you out there here in my own company that I wish
We're on that but it's a really great step in the right direction
Uh, so as you look at this work that you've been doing you're right there on the ground for with children
You've taken care of your own you've been involved in politics
Uh, what is your feeling now about what kennedy is doing?
Do you have hope that we're going to start seeing some light at the end of the tunnel on this journey?
Oh
100% I think bobby's doing all the right things. I am supportive of everything he's done. I'm supportive of the people he's working with
I'm supportive of of
What they did for hep b what they're gonna what they're doing with all the with the schedule what he's done with the food pyramid
He's been doing amazing things that we all know for 20 years have been the right things to do and finally
for those of us who've been
Screaming in the wind and you know victimized and you know called crazy
You know tin foil people
Hey, guess what like you were saying in your last segment. There's there's no proof. There's no proof
There's no double blind studies all this. I I'm so happy. He's suing the academy of pediatrics
I know a doctor here in the twin cities who had to leave his practice
because he um
was being
Victimized by his practice saying if you don't do this you're going to be fired and so then he just left
So I think this is he everything. He's doing it. I 100 support. I do have I do finally have hope
I just think the administration
We got to get through the midterms
And we got to keep we've got to keep bobby there and we got to keep the power on the right side of the issues
Well, great. Well, I you know I look forward to talking about that more and this is going to be a very important year
If you'll stick around for off the record, which is just a little interview I do after the show
I'd love to actually talk to you about adults. What's going to happen to these children?
Are there enough centers out there as parents are aging out where they can't take care of these children?
I know it's a huge issue. I'd like to know your perspective on that
But before we do that if people want to help with your work or donate or get involved
What's the best way to contact you and help out?
Well any help is appreciated. It's it's a rough time. I just go to info at hollandcenter.com
That's my just our mail and my my staff can direct them
Um, yeah, it's it is a tough time. So I appreciate anybody who wants to support. All right
Well, this is an issue that's close to us and we have a very active audience. So I'm sure
They're gonna help you out and and keep us posted if anything shifts that this goes negative in any way
I'm gonna scream bloody murder and I'll help you do it. So we'll make sure that we get this worked out, right?
Okay. All right. Take care Jen. I'll talk to you soon. All right. Okay. Thank you