WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to the King Heroes Journey podcast.

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My name is Beth Martens.

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It's November 6th, 2025.

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Sometimes I say that just to remind myself

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I've become incredibly disoriented

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these last few weeks around time change.

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I'm now considering it as an actual disorder.

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I have Mike Wilkerson on today.

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I'm super, super excited to speak with him.

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I apologize for last week.

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There was definitely some confusion.

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I can see lots of messages in the chat.

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Where's Beth?

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Where's Mike?

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What's going on here?

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And they're trying to figure it all out.

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But we made it.

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We are here.

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I am definitely excited to talk to Mike.

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We're live on Facebook and YouTube and X, also Rumble.

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If you are able, please help me share out this link

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so that more people could find us.

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I know there was definitely some confusion.

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So without further ado, I'm going to bring Mike on.

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Hello, Mike, and welcome to The King Here's Journey.

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Hi, Beth.

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Hi, everybody.

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So great to have you here.

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This is our second interview.

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I thoroughly enjoyed the first one.

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We got such a great comment.

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They said that my interview skills,

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while always tremendous, continually evolve.

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The conversation with Mike was so particularly good.

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I don't have the words to convey.

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We were really in sync.

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So again, no pressure.

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I'll have to rewatch it.

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Right.

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Yeah, me too.

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That's what I figure if I ever lose the internet,

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I've got my whole library of past interviews.

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And I'll just put them on autoplay.

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And that'll be the rest of my life.

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Yeah, wealth of information there.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Hello, Mary.

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Nice to see you.

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Welcome to the stream.

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And yeah, come and say hi in the chat.

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Remember to report was here last week.

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Thanks for all the help.

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He's a good tech guy.

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And he was trying to troubleshoot for me,

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wondering what was going on.

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But do come and say hello in the chat.

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It's always nice to have you guys tune in.

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This same lady from my own province here in Manitoba.

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We have a date coming up for dinner.

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Looking forward to that.

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She's connecting me with an accountant.

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I also have an accountant disorder.

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It doesn't matter who I've worked with.

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It seems to be just a complete, I don't know,

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some like weird.

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There's, is it an archetypal thing,

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the shadow of that or one of those?

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Well, accountant usually means taxes.

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And taxes means totalitarian oppression.

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So one goes hand in hand.

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Right.

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Yeah, the accountants are kind of like managers

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in that situation where they have no power.

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They answer to the government

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and they answer to the client.

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Now I've never seen that happen really well.

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The other part.

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The best accountant is one that despises the IRS.

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Right, right, exactly.

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Yeah, that they're trying everything sideways.

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But yeah, I just can't get them to actually do the work.

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So I'm trying to transition and wish me luck on that.

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But thank you.

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So if you're not familiar with Mike Wilkerson,

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he is the author of a new book

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that I have got halfway through called The Hacker Prince.

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And I find this incredibly intriguing.

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I know that I myself will never have hacking skills,

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but I'm so interested in that.

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And your book does a good job.

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Like I said, I managed to read half of it

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and it does a good job of showing the evolution

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of how you took on that role.

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I'm curious about the archetype behind The Hacker

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and what that is.

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So maybe I'll pipe in if I start to feel it or see it.

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And for those that don't know Mike, for over a decade,

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he has worked as a chiropractor in Spain where he is now

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and where his mission has been to help improve one spine,

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improve health one spine and mind at a time.

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Mike has always asked unconventional questions

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as a team computer hobbyist turned hacker

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in the early 80s, his thirst for deeper knowledge

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led to wild adventures with some

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of the top hackers in the nation.

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In 1985, the fun ended with a brief incarceration

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for his infiltration of computer servers at Microsoft

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and three other Seattle corporations

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interest in examining the unquestionables never waned.

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In the decades that followed,

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Mike evolved from mischievous hacker

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to benevolent backcracker and in his recent years

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an independent researcher.

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His research and presentations are available

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on the stellium seven YouTube channel.

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And I did post a link here in the chat.

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You could click right on if you want to go

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and sub to him and follow him.

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He's got a wonderful audience as well.

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I know I've met some nice people through you.

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Hello, Genevieve.

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Welcome.

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Is there anything more that you want to add?

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Mike, by way of introduction, what you're up to.

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Actually closer to 15 now.

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15.

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Working on the coast of Blanca in Spain

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as a chiropractor.

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Right.

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From hacker to cracker.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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Yeah, the chiropractic, it's such an interesting

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before we get right into the meat of the interview today.

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The chiropractic is one of those fields

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that I saw a chiropractor.

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I've got a frozen shoulder thing

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and I haven't cracked the code of that yet

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and saw a chiropractor for a good solid year.

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Just gave it a try.

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I did the x-rays, did the testing

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and I'd go in and she'd shoot me with her little gun.

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I'm sure you know what that is, little thing.

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The activator.

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Is that what it's called?

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Okay, okay.

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And I'm sorry to say, it didn't do anything.

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You know, there was sometimes-

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Yeah, she's doing Ossia's adjustment as well,

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like clicks and pops in the spine.

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Almost none, every so often.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, for something like frozen shoulder,

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often needs a little more intense treatment.

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I've had it myself.

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It is not fun, especially as a chiropractor

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because you're using your shoulders for every adjustment.

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So it's short jolts, quick movements

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are excruciating when it's really frozen.

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So that's exactly what a chiropractor does

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all day long, your short little quick jolts.

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So it was not fun.

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Chiropractic helps, stretching helps.

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I would get a massage gun,

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one of those, the vibrating ones

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and use it on a regular basis.

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But it's just a time thing also with frozen shoulders.

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They don't know why they come

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and they just kind of fade away

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or they stay and people have a non-growing restricted motion.

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So you got to work at it to regain the mobility.

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Right, yeah, that's what I've noticed.

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I was trying to push it

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because I haven't really noticed it that much.

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I've just learned to work around it.

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That's what a disability does

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is that you stop making the motion that hurts

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and then it seems better.

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So I was pushing it and like overextending it

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and then for two days,

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the shoulder told me, don't do that.

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What's wrong?

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What's your problem?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I also had a...

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Did you want to say more?

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No, I was just gonna say I sympathize with it

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because I actually had two frozen shoulders.

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So I had it in one

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and it took about a year and a half

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and then I was so relieved it was finally gone

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and then I came on on the other side

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and I have no idea why.

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I think stress, emotional stuff,

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you know, there's, I don't know,

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German New Medicine probably has something to say about that

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but I don't know what it would be.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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What was I gonna say?

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I saw an osteopath after that

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and there seemed to be some benefit from it

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and the one thing that was interesting,

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she said that the deltoid is a common repository of toxicity

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and so I wondered if that wasn't a part of it,

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how it's restricting the motion with stuff in there.

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So I'm on a major detox.

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I've been doing this for over a year now

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and wondering if that's going to help it

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but my osteopath said, yeah,

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they just go away and nobody knows why.

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I was like, okay, good.

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So I won't worry.

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Thankfully.

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Right, right, got it.

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Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one.

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Hello, Patricia.

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Yeah, when you're in the middle of it,

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it can feel like it's never gonna go away.

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So just have faith

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and yeah, envelope it with light

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and healing energy.

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Mm-hmm, exactly, exactly.

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Rather than that, well, that's the interesting part

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about when you've got a part of your body

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that either has pain or it's not functioning properly,

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is that unconsciously,

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we tend to disapprove of that part of our body

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and that's programming, that's a withholding of love

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and so that is an added problem to the original problem.

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Yeah, I often talk with people about the language

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they're using when they describe their bodies.

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It's like, that's my bad, this, that, or the other.

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You know, or they speak very disparagingly

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of their own body and they don't realize

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that the symptoms are there is a clue.

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It's a message

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and people don't wanna hear the messages oftentimes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, and being loving with something

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is really different than withholding love.

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So yeah, Jackie Kay, you had the shoulder issue

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and you blamed it on oxalate dumping.

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I stopped eating kiwis after I heard that from you,

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just in case.

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Oh no, I had one today.

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Oh, you did?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's apparently concentrated in the seeds

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and I find that fascinating too

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because the plants will hide its biggest poison

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in the part that it would reproduce with

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and maybe that's how it teaches animals.

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Like yeah, don't eat at least too much of me

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so that I can survive and reproduce.

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Yeah.

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Moderation is key.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Cycling through things that you're not sure of

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or you know are high in toxins,

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make them sometimes or never.

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Yeah, yeah, and same lady has the same problem.

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Darn, constant pain.

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Oh crap, yeah, I only have pain

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when I move the wrong way.

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But yeah, looking forward to full extension

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at some point.

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All right, well, without further ado,

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before we get too deep in the rabbit hole

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that I always can go into these days on detox,

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that's a never ending fascination

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learning more and more every day.

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Let's talk about hacking.

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That it seems like, I'll just say this kind of bluntly

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is that I like knowing you that you're hacking.

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Like would you consider yourself

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to be an expert at hacking?

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Absolutely not.

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Oh, absolutely not.

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No, no.

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I left hacking after I got busted

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and my court case ensued and I never went back.

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I was on the cutting edge of a new wave of laws

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that were making it stream, you know.

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And so I knew if I reoffended

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that it would not be good for me

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and I would probably end up in prison

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for maybe multiple years.

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And other hackers did go to prison for multiple years.

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So I was lucky to get off lightly,

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but I walked away from a world

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that had really been the better part of my social life

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for four or five years and never went back.

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I just, I turned a page

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and started a new life basically.

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So it's strange for me to be talking about all this stuff now.

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The October 17th this month, last month

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was the 40th anniversary of the day I got busted.

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So it's literally like four decades ago

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that these events happened.

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So it's interesting to revisit them,

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but it feels like another life, like another person.

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So it's a bit unusual actually to discuss these things,

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but I'm happy to talk about it.

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It's, they're fun subjects.

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Right, right.

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And it must have been isolating

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when you lost your community,

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you had to walk away from all of that.

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Yeah, I was forced to get back into the real world

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and I was living in Seattle at the time,

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but I was from California

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and I just random circumstances,

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which I talk about in the book,

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cause me to end up in Seattle.

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And I was only there for a few months when I got caught.

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And so after that,

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the first job I had was making sandwiches in a deli

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called the apples, et cetera, that was in a mall.

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And it was actually fun, not so much the work,

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but just actually having a real job

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and supporting myself for the first time.

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And I started to make friends.

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I had a lot of challenges when I was in school,

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in my hometown in Ojai, California,

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both from junior high and onto high school

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that made social life tough for me.

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And so it was really refreshing being in Seattle

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and meeting new people and just being accepted

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for who I was and not having a shadow

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of preconceived notions that were following after me.

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So it was actually a really fun and rich time in my life,

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which I don't discuss in the book

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because those are things that happened

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after the meat of the story.

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Right, so that's really interesting

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because just by observation of the time sets,

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I mean, have we met in person?

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I feel like we have.

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We did at Anarcapulco.

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I think we talked about this last time, I can't.

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I think we did at Anarcapulco,

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but then I think maybe we were not at the same year.

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So I don't know.

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It was not the last one,

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but the one before that I was at.

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I was there too, yeah.

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You were?

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Yeah, yeah.

15:59.580 --> 16:00.820
Well, wait, were you one of the ones

16:00.820 --> 16:02.440
that came down with Monozoom's Revenge?

16:02.960 --> 16:03.520
Not that.

16:03.880 --> 16:04.120
No.

16:05.020 --> 16:05.660
Not that year.

16:05.660 --> 16:06.920
Yeah, because there were a couple of people

16:06.920 --> 16:08.240
that were just knocked out.

16:09.160 --> 16:10.360
I know big, strong men.

16:10.380 --> 16:10.900
Toast your gardener.

16:12.300 --> 16:14.400
Yeah, yeah, no, it happened to me last year.

16:14.540 --> 16:15.700
I was there for 48 hours,

16:16.120 --> 16:18.760
and then I was out for the entire conference,

16:18.860 --> 16:21.440
just sweating it out and crying it out,

16:21.620 --> 16:22.920
and it's just far off.

16:22.920 --> 16:25.180
Oh, actually, I do remember seeing you on stage now.

16:25.480 --> 16:26.860
So yeah, we were there,

16:26.940 --> 16:29.940
but I don't think we really talk much, if at all.

16:30.320 --> 16:33.360
No, I just, so I was observing you

16:33.360 --> 16:36.540
and you're incredibly social, right?

16:36.680 --> 16:39.520
And you're very connected and people love you.

16:39.980 --> 16:44.120
And so how do you think that shifted

16:44.120 --> 16:46.000
from those early days

16:46.000 --> 16:48.300
when you felt like that wasn't your...

16:48.300 --> 16:50.760
I've always been pretty gregarious

16:50.760 --> 16:53.820
and loved socializing.

16:54.600 --> 16:56.520
I think part of it is being an only child.

16:57.040 --> 17:01.280
So having no siblings, like if there were no friends

17:01.280 --> 17:02.760
around, you had to go out and make them.

17:02.760 --> 17:07.220
So I was eager to interact with people.

17:09.120 --> 17:11.700
So I guess that never left me,

17:11.900 --> 17:13.460
and that was one of the frustrating things

17:13.460 --> 17:19.620
when I was going through school is that there was...

17:19.620 --> 17:22.460
Back when I was 12, at the end of seventh grade

17:22.460 --> 17:25.220
in junior high, a rumor was spread about me

17:25.220 --> 17:29.760
that I was gay and that I'd been caught doing things

17:29.760 --> 17:30.540
that I hadn't done.

17:31.280 --> 17:34.780
Neither were true, but everyone loves a good rumor.

17:35.680 --> 17:38.060
And so it spread like wildfire through the school

17:38.060 --> 17:42.280
and basically haunted me for the next three, four years

17:42.280 --> 17:44.640
until I dropped out of high school.

17:45.060 --> 17:50.460
So it was sports, tennis and soccer

17:50.460 --> 17:52.440
that really, and later cycling,

17:52.720 --> 17:55.100
that were an outlet for me.

17:55.380 --> 17:59.220
So I had hobbies and passions.

18:00.540 --> 18:02.900
And it was always nuts about girls,

18:03.020 --> 18:04.520
but I was a very late bloomer.

18:04.940 --> 18:09.820
So that part of my life was also delayed.

18:10.680 --> 18:14.400
So when it came to computers,

18:14.760 --> 18:17.960
that became a real welcome outlet for me

18:17.960 --> 18:23.200
because not only was it exciting from the tech perspective

18:23.200 --> 18:27.720
but I started to make a whole social life.

18:28.700 --> 18:30.880
I knew people all around the country

18:31.460 --> 18:34.220
that I didn't know in person

18:34.220 --> 18:36.700
and we weren't doing video calls like we can now,

18:37.640 --> 18:39.620
but we were doing a whole lot of other stuff.

18:40.100 --> 18:41.860
And so I got to know a lot of people

18:41.860 --> 18:44.700
and eventually I met a bunch of those people in person.

18:45.460 --> 18:50.260
And those are some of the fun chapters in the book,

18:51.860 --> 18:52.820
those exploits.

18:53.940 --> 18:56.100
Right, yeah, I think I'm right in the middle of them

18:56.100 --> 18:58.160
if my memory serves correctly.

18:59.580 --> 19:01.180
Yeah, the only child thing.

19:01.500 --> 19:03.200
My mom was an only child,

19:03.240 --> 19:05.440
which was very unusual for her generation.

19:06.300 --> 19:08.560
And then my son is an only child too.

19:08.740 --> 19:10.420
And it was funny just the other day

19:10.420 --> 19:12.620
I was coming into full realization

19:12.620 --> 19:16.180
like his children won't have aunties and uncles

19:17.400 --> 19:19.000
and first cousins.

19:19.780 --> 19:24.620
And it's just like, oh, wow, that's wild.

19:24.620 --> 19:26.840
You know, it was kind of disappointing.

19:27.700 --> 19:31.480
It took me 18 years to be disappointed by that.

19:31.920 --> 19:34.460
I was grateful to have any child at all.

19:34.620 --> 19:36.660
I was told I wasn't going to conceive

19:36.660 --> 19:38.120
after all the chemo that I did.

19:38.900 --> 19:41.760
And so I think it's a miracle that he exists.

19:42.160 --> 19:47.340
But I can recognize that, say as a toddler

19:47.340 --> 19:49.020
he was incredibly social.

19:49.240 --> 19:50.700
He would just go up to anybody,

19:50.920 --> 19:53.460
he would talk to them, he was fearless.

19:53.460 --> 19:56.080
There was just this like, you know, natural,

19:56.240 --> 19:59.300
yeah, I wanna interact and be with the people

19:59.300 --> 20:00.440
and everything like that.

20:00.660 --> 20:03.720
And COVID was so tragic for him

20:03.720 --> 20:09.160
because that was his main and only social interaction

20:09.160 --> 20:10.120
in the world.

20:10.520 --> 20:12.860
So they took school away from them.

20:12.880 --> 20:15.720
And when it came back as a possibility,

20:15.840 --> 20:19.200
he's like, oh, I'm going, you can't stop me.

20:19.240 --> 20:20.440
Cause by that point I'm like,

20:20.520 --> 20:21.980
I don't think this is a good idea.

20:21.980 --> 20:25.840
It's not an environment or maybe force inject you

20:25.840 --> 20:28.160
or whatever could happen.

20:28.540 --> 20:32.700
And he just was like, nope, I am going to be in school.

20:32.800 --> 20:35.540
And he made so good on it cause he woke himself up

20:36.140 --> 20:41.380
and didn't drink the Kool-Aid, didn't get injected,

20:41.960 --> 20:43.980
could tell the difference between,

20:44.960 --> 20:50.080
I don't know, real people and not real people

20:50.780 --> 20:52.740
about half in the school.

20:52.940 --> 20:55.840
So he did well and he developed a lot of friends

20:55.840 --> 20:58.640
and a good social network out of it.

20:59.060 --> 21:01.480
So yeah, I'm pretty happy for that, Kim.

21:04.020 --> 21:07.920
Yeah, COVID messed with so many children's lives

21:07.920 --> 21:09.440
and adults obviously.

21:09.940 --> 21:14.280
So it's socially, I just think of all the children

21:14.280 --> 21:16.500
who were wearing masks and, you know,

21:16.680 --> 21:18.060
we're still learning language

21:18.060 --> 21:22.000
and we didn't see faces or expressions or lips moving.

21:23.140 --> 21:25.260
So there's going to be a lot of people

21:25.260 --> 21:27.440
with stunted growth from that.

21:29.260 --> 21:29.820
Exactly.

21:30.940 --> 21:32.620
Yeah, and then the trauma, just, I mean,

21:32.840 --> 21:36.740
there's a lot of layers of it in things that happen.

21:37.480 --> 21:39.600
Lifetime, you just kind of get through it

21:40.160 --> 21:44.500
and then the real healing often takes place later

21:44.500 --> 21:46.680
when it's allowed, you know,

21:46.680 --> 21:48.420
that the wounds are allowed to come up.

21:48.660 --> 21:52.120
And so, yeah, I've often thought about doing a support group

21:52.120 --> 21:54.200
for people that are trying to clean up

21:54.200 --> 21:55.120
on all of that stuff.

21:56.160 --> 21:57.040
Not a word.

21:57.300 --> 21:58.540
Unfortunately, I think the majority of people

21:58.540 --> 22:01.460
who kind of fell for all the lies

22:02.220 --> 22:04.080
have buried their heads in the sand

22:04.080 --> 22:05.760
and are just trying to forget that it happened.

22:06.020 --> 22:08.420
So it's like a PTSD sort of thing

22:08.900 --> 22:10.320
rather than going, wait a minute.

22:11.140 --> 22:12.740
They lied to me about that.

22:13.040 --> 22:14.900
They lied about this and that, you know,

22:14.900 --> 22:16.980
I mean, there's so much evidence

22:16.980 --> 22:19.820
and information out there now that shows

22:19.820 --> 22:22.640
that literally every step of the way was a lie.

22:23.520 --> 22:26.300
And then the entire scientific foundation

22:26.300 --> 22:28.380
of the claims was also a lie.

22:28.740 --> 22:33.240
So, you know, people that haven't woken up to that yet,

22:35.040 --> 22:36.880
I don't have a whole lot of hope

22:36.880 --> 22:38.820
that they're going to wake up at any point

22:38.820 --> 22:42.020
when it comes to the kinds of lies

22:42.020 --> 22:43.880
that the government perpetrates.

22:44.980 --> 22:45.540
Exactly.

22:46.340 --> 22:48.320
Yet when you, how would I phrase this?

22:48.400 --> 22:51.340
When you believe lies, when you tell yourself lies,

22:52.080 --> 22:55.580
then you're relegating a lot of data

22:56.600 --> 22:57.860
to your unconscious.

22:58.840 --> 23:00.720
You're literally not registering.

23:01.060 --> 23:03.640
I had one nephew I ran into at my sister's wedding

23:04.460 --> 23:07.600
because she's her, his son, her son.

23:08.100 --> 23:10.960
And he had told me like, you know,

23:11.120 --> 23:14.100
Antibeth never messaged me again, you need help.

23:14.100 --> 23:15.340
I hope you go on medication.

23:16.580 --> 23:18.020
I never want to talk to you again.

23:18.120 --> 23:21.080
It was like devastating, absolutely devastating.

23:21.280 --> 23:22.280
So I run into him at the wedding

23:22.280 --> 23:26.320
and he was one of the few that was being kind with me.

23:26.380 --> 23:28.080
He said, hello, how are you?

23:28.720 --> 23:30.620
I wasn't getting that from anybody else.

23:31.000 --> 23:33.000
And we even sat together and talked

23:33.000 --> 23:35.220
but there was like zero mention

23:35.220 --> 23:38.840
of what took place between us, the falling out

23:38.840 --> 23:41.160
or there was no resolution.

23:41.420 --> 23:43.420
There was no, I started to approach something

23:43.420 --> 23:44.660
at one point in the conversation

23:44.660 --> 23:48.100
and you could feel him going like, no, no, no,

23:48.140 --> 23:51.740
Antibeth, we're not going there at all.

23:51.980 --> 23:54.260
And yeah, yeah, just shut down.

23:54.260 --> 23:59.180
Yeah, I had one close cousin unfriend me from Facebook

23:59.180 --> 24:00.880
and cut off all contact.

24:01.100 --> 24:04.300
And then another one of my cousins was so deep

24:04.300 --> 24:07.900
into the propaganda that she had both of her children

24:08.520 --> 24:12.000
jabbed and they stood with the band aid

24:12.000 --> 24:15.760
and thumbs up in front of a life size

24:16.350 --> 24:20.260
which would have been small cut out of Fauci.

24:20.860 --> 24:24.000
And so they're like flanking Fauci's cut out

24:24.510 --> 24:27.640
going, we've got this and I'm just like,

24:28.240 --> 24:30.720
it just made me wanna cry actually

24:31.190 --> 24:35.460
that there was so much worship of him

24:35.460 --> 24:36.960
and the settled science.

24:37.680 --> 24:39.420
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

24:40.040 --> 24:40.800
Oh, that's a deep one.

24:40.880 --> 24:42.320
We could do a support group right now

24:42.320 --> 24:44.040
or we could go on and talk about your book.

24:45.880 --> 24:48.640
Oh man, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

24:49.080 --> 24:52.860
Yeah, let's talk about hacking.

24:53.420 --> 24:58.220
And so obviously you started on, if my memory serves

24:58.220 --> 25:02.680
was it an Atari or what was your first computer again?

25:02.820 --> 25:03.380
You have to remind me.

25:03.980 --> 25:05.780
Well, the first one I had in my home

25:05.780 --> 25:09.840
was the Texas Instruments TI-99 for A

25:11.060 --> 25:13.700
which was a behemoth.

25:14.360 --> 25:16.680
It was one of the first 16 bit machines

25:16.680 --> 25:19.620
and it had all these expansion slots

25:19.620 --> 25:22.080
and it was gonna be just the most amazing thing.

25:22.760 --> 25:26.040
Tape cassette drive so you could load games, you know?

25:28.240 --> 25:31.320
But nobody was writing any software for it

25:31.320 --> 25:33.100
so it was really boring

25:33.100 --> 25:35.940
and everyone had either a Commodore or an Apple

25:36.420 --> 25:38.380
and eventually I got an Apple II.

25:39.100 --> 25:40.840
The first one I ever got my hands on

25:40.840 --> 25:44.440
was a pet Commodore that was in the local library

25:44.880 --> 25:46.220
that I was able to use.

25:46.980 --> 25:49.820
Yeah, yeah, it was this horrible little thing.

25:49.940 --> 25:52.660
It had a 40 character screen

25:53.360 --> 25:55.680
and a little scrunched up keyboard

25:55.680 --> 25:57.860
that was even with my small hands at the time

25:57.860 --> 25:59.700
was really hard to type.

25:59.700 --> 26:04.100
And yeah, so it was a...

26:04.100 --> 26:06.380
I was trying to teach myself basic

26:06.380 --> 26:08.680
and I wanted to learn how to program

26:08.680 --> 26:11.040
so that I could make video games of my own.

26:11.100 --> 26:13.080
That was the original motivation

26:13.080 --> 26:15.700
because I understood that the video games

26:15.700 --> 26:17.980
that I was addicted to that were down at the bowling alley

26:17.980 --> 26:24.100
were the stand up consoles, space invaders and asteroids

26:24.100 --> 26:27.040
and that first wave of video games that came out.

26:27.040 --> 26:30.980
Up until that point it was pinball machines and foosball

26:31.610 --> 26:33.680
and then once the video games came out

26:33.680 --> 26:36.000
it felt like the future was here

26:36.000 --> 26:38.660
and it was just gonna be a matter of time

26:38.660 --> 26:41.020
before we were transporting from one place to another

26:41.020 --> 26:42.560
and flying at warp speed.

26:42.800 --> 26:46.040
So I just loved the video games

26:46.040 --> 26:47.760
and that was the motivation

26:47.760 --> 26:49.920
to try and learn how to program

26:49.920 --> 26:52.460
but I actually never did learn to program.

26:52.780 --> 26:55.540
There are a lot of hackers that are amazing programmers

26:55.540 --> 26:58.700
but then there are other hackers who are incredible hackers

26:58.700 --> 27:00.400
that never learned to program

27:00.400 --> 27:02.880
and some might wonder how that's possible

27:03.840 --> 27:07.800
and the way that's possible is that the weakest link

27:07.800 --> 27:10.600
in any security system is always the human element.

27:10.800 --> 27:12.220
So if you know how to hack people

27:12.740 --> 27:15.120
you can get them to give you whatever information

27:15.120 --> 27:19.040
that you otherwise might have had to do some kind of a tech hack

27:19.040 --> 27:19.880
in order to get.

27:20.800 --> 27:24.360
So I had my weaknesses and I had my strengths

27:24.360 --> 27:26.720
and I focused on the strengths

27:26.720 --> 27:29.220
and programming was not one of them.

27:30.200 --> 27:34.160
So I was good with software packages and operating systems

27:34.160 --> 27:35.980
and I could tweak programs a little bit.

27:36.180 --> 27:38.600
I knew the basics of basic

27:38.600 --> 27:43.140
but I never got deep into the programming side of things.

27:43.480 --> 27:47.560
So yeah, it was a love hate relationship

27:47.560 --> 27:49.140
with computers from the beginning.

27:49.680 --> 27:51.900
Okay, okay, there you go, interesting.

27:52.400 --> 27:54.720
That might be the alchemist archetype

27:54.720 --> 27:58.260
who's prone to love hate kind of relationships.

27:59.640 --> 28:01.180
I think it was just more frustration

28:01.180 --> 28:03.560
that I wasn't good at it from the get go

28:03.560 --> 28:05.520
and I knew how much work it was gonna take

28:05.520 --> 28:06.560
to get good at it.

28:06.840 --> 28:10.060
So yeah, I took your test.

28:10.500 --> 28:12.240
I did it last time also

28:12.240 --> 28:13.380
but I couldn't remember what I was.

28:13.700 --> 28:16.440
So I'm a nurturer, which you would expect

28:16.440 --> 28:17.620
as an air practice.

28:19.040 --> 28:20.320
Okay, yeah, yeah.

28:20.320 --> 28:22.300
Hopefully an awakened one.

28:23.100 --> 28:25.220
Right, right, yeah, with good boundaries

28:25.220 --> 28:27.080
and you don't hurt yourself helping others

28:27.720 --> 28:29.180
is the main thing.

28:29.640 --> 28:30.680
Less and less.

28:31.280 --> 28:32.040
Good, good.

28:32.240 --> 28:34.560
I have numerous times,

28:35.980 --> 28:39.920
it's hard on shoulders and wrists and ribs.

28:41.020 --> 28:43.020
Or just the physical wearer, exactly.

28:43.760 --> 28:45.800
Yeah, yeah, you're behind the eight ball with that.

28:46.080 --> 28:49.220
I know that to be the case

28:49.220 --> 28:52.360
and yeah, no, the nurture is a beautiful one.

28:52.640 --> 28:54.580
I never get far from that myself.

28:55.200 --> 28:56.620
So yeah, thanks for taking the test.

28:56.720 --> 28:57.100
That's awesome.

28:57.840 --> 28:59.780
If anyone listening wants to learn

28:59.780 --> 29:01.500
their King Hero archetype,

29:01.580 --> 29:04.260
they can do that in 10 minutes on my website.

29:04.400 --> 29:05.540
You can just sign up for that.

29:05.980 --> 29:07.000
I've got a direct link

29:07.000 --> 29:09.080
but not right in front of me this minute.

29:09.180 --> 29:10.680
It is in the show notes below, I believe.

29:12.220 --> 29:15.380
And yeah, so then the,

29:15.920 --> 29:17.600
how would you describe the evolution

29:17.600 --> 29:19.720
of computer technology?

29:20.300 --> 29:23.920
We have this impression and they want us to believe

29:23.920 --> 29:27.900
that things are so accelerated and so advanced

29:27.900 --> 29:31.520
and what's your opinion of that?

29:32.600 --> 29:34.100
Oh, that's a deep question.

29:34.760 --> 29:38.720
I think a lot of technology was sequestered

29:38.720 --> 29:41.700
from previous eras and is slowly being trickled out.

29:42.460 --> 29:43.880
Like a lot of people are marveling

29:43.880 --> 29:46.400
over the advancements in AI right now

29:46.400 --> 29:49.100
and how quickly it's gone.

29:50.020 --> 29:51.720
And they don't ponder the fact that,

29:52.260 --> 29:55.480
they might have had generations of AI

29:55.480 --> 29:58.200
that are way more advanced than what we have now

29:58.700 --> 29:59.720
a long time ago.

30:00.140 --> 30:03.620
And they've just been trickling out earlier versions.

30:05.300 --> 30:08.140
So it's possible that they've had access

30:08.140 --> 30:10.200
to this kind of technology for a long time

30:10.200 --> 30:12.380
and have been faking all kinds of stuff

30:12.380 --> 30:13.440
that we weren't aware of.

30:15.440 --> 30:19.200
But when it comes to the like the devolution,

30:19.880 --> 30:23.960
the evolution of computers, I mean, when I started,

30:24.440 --> 30:27.000
my first modem was a 300-bod modem.

30:27.240 --> 30:29.060
So it was all text-based

30:29.060 --> 30:32.940
and the text would go about this speed across the screen.

30:33.540 --> 30:35.380
So it's just fast enough that you could read it.

30:35.520 --> 30:37.320
Yeah, maybe a little faster than that.

30:38.860 --> 30:43.040
And then eventually I got a 1200-bod modem,

30:43.040 --> 30:45.680
which made it too fast to read.

30:45.940 --> 30:49.440
So I was like, it doesn't need to be this fast, you know?

30:50.140 --> 30:54.460
And then eventually once you started trading photographs

30:54.460 --> 30:59.580
or different software packages, you needed that bandwidth.

30:59.860 --> 31:04.640
So then it went to 2400 and 14.4 and 28.8

31:04.640 --> 31:09.420
and then 56K and eventually your fiber optic stuff.

31:09.740 --> 31:11.960
So I've been there like since the beginning

31:11.960 --> 31:14.740
where it was like cradle handset, you know?

31:14.920 --> 31:16.640
So you didn't plug into the wall,

31:16.880 --> 31:20.480
that literally the computers were talking to each other

31:20.480 --> 31:24.720
with these squeaking, high-pitched noises

31:24.720 --> 31:26.140
that sounded almost demonic.

31:26.860 --> 31:29.440
And you could, you know, you connect to the phone line,

31:29.560 --> 31:30.540
you could hear those sounds

31:30.540 --> 31:33.080
and then you put the receiver down

31:33.080 --> 31:34.880
and then you were connected, you know?

31:35.020 --> 31:39.780
So it's like, it's interesting how far it's come,

31:39.780 --> 31:41.560
you know, and just in my lifetime

31:42.020 --> 31:45.080
to see the progression that we're doing this right now

31:45.080 --> 31:46.940
and there's all kinds of people listening in.

31:49.400 --> 31:52.060
But there were a bunch of things that we were doing back then

31:52.060 --> 31:53.180
that were pretty sophisticated

31:53.180 --> 31:56.060
and most people didn't even know they were possible.

31:56.680 --> 31:59.960
Like we were hacking the phone network as well,

32:00.120 --> 32:02.880
not just computers, but there were ways,

32:03.260 --> 32:05.800
like you could make free calls with calling codes.

32:06.020 --> 32:08.180
So I don't know if you remember Sprint and MCI.

32:08.180 --> 32:08.880
For sure.

32:09.120 --> 32:10.700
People who wanted to save money, you know,

32:10.720 --> 32:14.100
instead of shelling out huge amounts to AT&T

32:14.100 --> 32:16.080
that could go with these other services,

32:16.080 --> 32:17.280
but they were also a hassle

32:17.280 --> 32:18.620
because you had to dial a number

32:19.060 --> 32:21.360
and then dial your personal code for billing

32:21.800 --> 32:23.640
and then you would dial the number you wanted to call.

32:24.100 --> 32:26.560
And also you would have degraded sound quality.

32:26.860 --> 32:29.360
So like when you were connecting with a modem,

32:29.460 --> 32:32.100
you would get line noise that would garbles

32:32.100 --> 32:33.840
the text on the screen

32:33.840 --> 32:36.960
and sometimes it would cause the call to drop and stuff.

32:37.600 --> 32:41.700
So the codes were one way,

32:41.820 --> 32:43.040
but then there were these things,

32:43.340 --> 32:44.940
they were called the colored boxes.

32:45.560 --> 32:47.480
There's blue box and red box.

32:47.740 --> 32:49.480
Those were the most famous of them.

32:50.500 --> 32:53.340
And what these did was they reproduced tones

32:53.340 --> 32:58.160
that the telephone network would use for call routing.

32:58.620 --> 33:00.920
So like when you would call an operator

33:00.920 --> 33:02.820
to make an international call,

33:03.160 --> 33:04.540
they would route the call

33:04.540 --> 33:06.040
and then you would hear in the background this,

33:06.040 --> 33:10.420
and these tones were different from the tones

33:10.420 --> 33:13.860
on your keypad when you were using your home phone.

33:14.380 --> 33:16.300
And there were multi-frequency tones

33:16.300 --> 33:19.360
that ran that system.

33:19.940 --> 33:23.440
So people figured this stuff out long before I came along

33:24.040 --> 33:26.360
and had actually produced devices

33:26.360 --> 33:28.040
that would replicate these tones.

33:28.700 --> 33:32.760
So the most famous of the tones was 2600 Hertz

33:32.760 --> 33:35.360
and there was, I think it still exists.

33:35.360 --> 33:38.700
Oh, someone just said it's in the chat, 2600 Hertz sound.

33:39.880 --> 33:41.960
Yeah, that was the master tone

33:42.460 --> 33:44.500
because when you blew that tone,

33:46.000 --> 33:49.440
it would knock the telephone operator off of her trunk.

33:49.960 --> 33:52.740
The trunk was the line that she was operating.

33:53.620 --> 33:56.620
So she would just think the call had terminated

33:56.620 --> 33:58.440
and go on to the next call,

33:58.580 --> 34:01.700
but you actually had control of her computer

34:01.700 --> 34:03.080
at that, or not computer,

34:03.080 --> 34:06.360
but her trunk was what it was called, the line.

34:07.460 --> 34:09.560
And so once you had that,

34:09.800 --> 34:12.520
if you could reproduce those multi-frequency tones

34:12.520 --> 34:13.660
and knew how to use them,

34:14.320 --> 34:17.160
you could do anything that the telephone operator could do.

34:17.680 --> 34:20.120
And you could do international calling,

34:20.380 --> 34:22.500
you could do conference calling,

34:22.760 --> 34:24.600
you could do all kinds of different things.

34:24.840 --> 34:26.820
And like one of the highest level things

34:26.820 --> 34:30.140
that some of the freakers

34:30.140 --> 34:31.300
is what they called themselves.

34:31.690 --> 34:34.060
It's a combination of phone and freak,

34:34.480 --> 34:36.120
so freak with a pH.

34:37.200 --> 34:38.860
They would use these tones

34:38.860 --> 34:42.380
and like the highest level of that skill

34:43.140 --> 34:45.940
was a busy line verification,

34:46.400 --> 34:48.560
which is like emergency interrupts

34:48.560 --> 34:49.760
that the operators could do.

34:50.300 --> 34:53.360
Like if a phone was off the hook for two days straight

34:53.360 --> 34:54.500
and you were wondering like,

34:54.880 --> 34:56.080
is it really off the hook

34:56.080 --> 34:59.000
or is somebody injured in the home and they need help,

34:59.000 --> 35:01.300
you could call to see if someone was actually,

35:01.480 --> 35:04.000
the operators could break in on the line

35:04.000 --> 35:06.160
to see if someone was actually conversing

35:06.160 --> 35:07.800
or if the line was just dead.

35:08.600 --> 35:11.640
And so that was an incredibly powerful thing

35:11.640 --> 35:13.740
to have the ability to do

35:13.740 --> 35:15.640
because it meant you could listen in

35:15.640 --> 35:16.980
on other people's conversations.

35:17.740 --> 35:20.620
So there were people who were doing that

35:20.620 --> 35:22.100
and way more than that.

35:22.900 --> 35:24.920
And then we also had these-

35:24.920 --> 35:26.140
And did you listen in?

35:27.040 --> 35:28.740
I never got to that level.

35:28.740 --> 35:32.540
I was very close to being able to do that kind of stuff

35:32.540 --> 35:34.600
right around the time that I got busted.

35:35.060 --> 35:37.680
So, but I knew others who could

35:37.680 --> 35:40.200
and a couple of them are,

35:43.000 --> 35:44.020
what's the word for?

35:44.440 --> 35:46.180
Somebody who's famous for the wrong reasons.

35:47.900 --> 35:48.340
Infamous.

35:48.960 --> 35:49.880
Infamous, thank you.

35:50.060 --> 35:51.080
That's the word I was looking for.

35:51.300 --> 35:51.920
Yeah, just go compliment.

35:52.160 --> 35:53.980
And I'm like, and that's not a compliment, is it?

35:56.180 --> 35:57.660
It depends on what it's for.

35:58.740 --> 36:00.520
If it was for who you're talking to.

36:01.140 --> 36:06.220
Yeah, so there was a system called Alliance Teleconferencing

36:06.220 --> 36:12.960
that was designed for corporations and private people

36:12.960 --> 36:17.000
to be able to do multi-line conference calls.

36:17.980 --> 36:20.520
And so that was something that corporations

36:20.520 --> 36:22.660
would pay often a flat rate for

36:22.660 --> 36:25.540
and get unlimited usage or you could pay by the minute

36:25.540 --> 36:28.960
and then it became exorbitant, the costs.

36:30.340 --> 36:31.840
And it was, I think it was something

36:31.840 --> 36:33.100
like almost a dollar a minute.

36:33.480 --> 36:36.240
So if you could say you had five of your family members,

36:36.380 --> 36:38.120
you wanted to talk to them all at the same time,

36:38.540 --> 36:40.680
you could use this Alliance Teleconferencing

36:40.680 --> 36:41.620
for those purposes.

36:41.900 --> 36:45.580
And we were making use of those lines for party lines.

36:45.820 --> 36:48.780
And so that was, once I got into the hacking world

36:48.780 --> 36:50.840
and I started to meet hackers,

36:51.000 --> 36:52.300
most of them were on the East Coast.

36:52.460 --> 36:54.160
So it was far away.

36:54.160 --> 36:58.380
And way too expensive to make calls to talk to them.

36:59.200 --> 37:02.120
So these lines were amazing.

37:02.520 --> 37:05.360
And you could have up to 20 people

37:05.360 --> 37:07.760
or more on the line at a given time.

37:07.980 --> 37:10.120
And it was like a late night party

37:10.570 --> 37:13.900
that you could fall asleep and wake up

37:13.900 --> 37:15.840
and people would still be talking on the lines.

37:16.040 --> 37:17.860
But they were also really great

37:17.860 --> 37:23.080
for sharing information and just trying stuff out.

37:23.080 --> 37:25.260
Because you could dial in numbers.

37:25.560 --> 37:28.760
So you could call an unsuspecting victim.

37:29.300 --> 37:35.080
And we would take turns trying to weasel information

37:35.080 --> 37:36.920
out of somebody at the phone company

37:36.920 --> 37:38.720
or that sort of thing.

37:38.980 --> 37:41.640
So it was, yeah, party lines.

37:42.400 --> 37:43.680
Right, yeah.

37:43.880 --> 37:47.420
Oh, that's triggering all kinds of past life memories.

37:48.160 --> 37:50.900
Yeah, I really, I kept my teeth on those

37:50.900 --> 37:53.700
because I learned a tremendous amount

37:53.700 --> 37:57.680
and I got to meet a lot of people who years later

37:57.680 --> 37:59.760
when I was researching to write this book,

38:00.760 --> 38:04.080
I knew there were a whole bunch of things that I did

38:04.080 --> 38:05.600
but I couldn't remember how I'd done them

38:05.600 --> 38:06.900
because I walked away from it all.

38:07.060 --> 38:09.540
So I had to go and kind of refresh my memory

38:09.540 --> 38:12.380
and I came across the old hacking texts

38:12.380 --> 38:14.200
that were written by people who I knew.

38:15.660 --> 38:19.020
And what I discovered is I was digging into it

38:19.020 --> 38:21.660
and researching it is that the people that I knew,

38:22.220 --> 38:26.760
and I was the first one to get taken out of the game,

38:26.940 --> 38:30.140
so to speak, there was a whole wave of busts

38:30.140 --> 38:32.840
that happened about five years after me.

38:33.300 --> 38:36.360
There was an operation called Operation Sun Devil

38:36.360 --> 38:38.940
where the government did a sting

38:39.580 --> 38:43.220
and raided 27 different homes at the same moment

38:43.220 --> 38:46.980
and busted a lot of people and there were court cases

38:46.980 --> 38:51.620
but that all happened like five years after I was busted.

38:51.960 --> 38:56.260
So I found out years and years later

38:56.260 --> 38:59.560
that these people that I was in Kahootz with

38:59.560 --> 39:02.440
and hanging out with were literally the top hackers

39:02.440 --> 39:07.200
of the era and some of them are infamous

39:07.200 --> 39:09.340
and hacking lore.

39:09.900 --> 39:13.780
So that was kind of fun to discover along the way.

39:14.700 --> 39:17.380
And do you think there's something about that timing

39:17.380 --> 39:21.980
that you were five years before that wave of busts?

39:21.980 --> 39:25.120
You think that was in your favor in some way?

39:25.280 --> 39:27.500
Stop you earlier rather than later?

39:27.880 --> 39:30.400
It definitely was when it came to sentencing.

39:30.620 --> 39:32.560
It was a light sentence.

39:33.420 --> 39:35.420
It wasn't a light sentence in the sense

39:35.420 --> 39:36.940
that I was a first-time offender

39:36.940 --> 39:38.520
and I hadn't done any damage

39:38.520 --> 39:41.100
and I hadn't stolen any data.

39:41.100 --> 39:45.920
I had no intentions of doing corporate espionage

39:45.920 --> 39:46.920
or anything like that.

39:46.980 --> 39:50.120
It was something that I was just doing for the fun of it.

39:50.520 --> 39:53.740
One of the papers called it a high-tech joy ride

39:53.740 --> 39:55.400
which I think is the best description

39:55.400 --> 39:56.340
of what I was doing.

39:56.740 --> 39:58.800
It's like the keys are there

39:58.800 --> 40:00.060
and the fancy automobile,

40:00.560 --> 40:02.220
like I'm just going to take it for a spin.

40:02.560 --> 40:04.500
There are a lot of computers

40:04.500 --> 40:06.920
that I just would not have had access to

40:06.920 --> 40:08.660
unless I later went on to college

40:08.660 --> 40:12.480
and majored in information technologies

40:12.480 --> 40:15.220
then I could have accessed these servers

40:15.220 --> 40:17.660
but this was a way to do that for free

40:17.660 --> 40:19.700
from the privacy of my own home.

40:21.060 --> 40:22.320
But to answer your question,

40:23.280 --> 40:27.280
I was really at the forefront

40:27.280 --> 40:29.220
of this new wave of legislation.

40:29.880 --> 40:32.640
The law that was passed in Seattle,

40:32.920 --> 40:35.460
I was only the second person to be,

40:36.190 --> 40:39.060
what do you say, tried under this law

40:39.570 --> 40:42.680
and the first person received probation

40:43.230 --> 40:46.320
and I received jail time along with probation

40:46.320 --> 40:50.020
and 200 hours of community service

40:50.020 --> 40:53.600
and some monetary fines as well.

40:54.540 --> 40:59.240
But if I had been busted two or three years later

40:59.240 --> 41:03.680
the outcome could have been a lot worse.

41:03.680 --> 41:06.860
So the timing was really fortunate for me

41:07.820 --> 41:12.880
and it also puts me in a pretty unusual position

41:12.880 --> 41:15.740
of having been the first hacker to go to jail

41:15.740 --> 41:17.900
for the crime of hacking in the world.

41:20.820 --> 41:26.460
In fact, a year after I went to jail

41:26.460 --> 41:30.140
was when they passed the Computer Crime and Fraud Act.

41:30.740 --> 41:32.060
It was in 1986.

41:32.920 --> 41:35.580
And that is still in place, I believe,

41:35.620 --> 41:39.660
it was the template for computer prosecutions

41:39.660 --> 41:43.420
and it made it a five-year prison sentence,

41:43.880 --> 41:47.160
maximum penalty per offense and felony

41:48.200 --> 41:51.120
for computer trespass in the first degree.

41:51.840 --> 41:53.440
It's pretty wild actually.

41:53.580 --> 41:55.760
If you think about the different kinds of crimes

41:55.760 --> 41:59.840
you can commit, like you can bludgeon somebody

42:01.440 --> 42:04.860
and break into their home, beat them over the head,

42:05.340 --> 42:08.420
steal their computer, that's a gross misdemeanor.

42:10.520 --> 42:14.260
But they were trying to try me for felony

42:14.260 --> 42:17.360
computer trespass, which they didn't succeed in.

42:17.540 --> 42:19.080
There were plea bargaining involved,

42:19.300 --> 42:21.940
but they would not have been able to convict me

42:21.940 --> 42:24.120
for first degree because they would have had to have proven

42:24.120 --> 42:28.860
that I had gotten in with intent to commit other crimes

42:28.860 --> 42:30.700
and they couldn't have proven that

42:30.700 --> 42:31.800
because that wasn't the case.

42:33.040 --> 42:36.920
But I had a good lawyer who went to bat for me

42:36.920 --> 42:40.680
and got it reduced, but the prosecuting attorney

42:40.680 --> 42:43.980
who was assigned to my case was the man

42:43.980 --> 42:47.960
who co-authored the law that I was being tried with.

42:48.680 --> 42:51.440
So he had a vested interest in a conviction

42:51.940 --> 42:55.480
and a vested interest in a jail sentence

42:55.480 --> 42:57.340
because that hadn't been handed out.

42:58.860 --> 43:02.000
Other hackers had gone to jail before me

43:02.000 --> 43:03.640
but not for computer crime

43:03.640 --> 43:04.980
because it had never been defined.

43:05.400 --> 43:10.920
So they were being charged for things like fraud

43:10.920 --> 43:14.840
and that sort of thing, espionage in some cases.

43:15.240 --> 43:20.060
But I was the first one to be convicted

43:20.060 --> 43:23.220
of this new law in Washington.

43:23.800 --> 43:28.340
And it's a strange little bit of my past.

43:29.300 --> 43:34.540
Yeah, like a badge or some kind of honor of some kinds

43:34.540 --> 43:37.120
and then being up against the guy

43:37.120 --> 43:39.380
who co-authored the law itself

43:39.380 --> 43:44.120
that would be extremely motivated to convict.

43:44.660 --> 43:48.040
Yeah, he's kind of the nemesis through the book

43:48.320 --> 43:51.620
because he's there pushing for this jail time.

43:51.760 --> 43:53.160
And I'm like, what the heck?

43:53.760 --> 43:58.180
It's like normally people would get hired at the companies

43:58.720 --> 44:02.440
because they're like, oh, you exposed our weaknesses.

44:02.780 --> 44:03.980
Can you show us how you did it?

44:04.200 --> 44:05.880
And we'll put you to work.

44:06.260 --> 44:09.080
That happened to a lot of hackers back then

44:09.700 --> 44:11.680
but they were specifically tailoring the laws

44:11.680 --> 44:13.680
to make that not possible

44:13.680 --> 44:15.780
because they wanted convictions.

44:16.520 --> 44:19.840
And in fact, the way the law was written in Washington

44:19.840 --> 44:22.700
I think it's really weird

44:22.700 --> 44:27.080
but if you broke into somebody's computer

44:27.080 --> 44:29.640
you were committing a crime against them

44:30.280 --> 44:32.400
but you were also, according to the law,

44:32.600 --> 44:34.560
committing a crime against the state of Washington.

44:35.560 --> 44:40.900
So when they brought in the detectives

44:40.900 --> 44:46.040
or the authorities to try and catch me

44:46.760 --> 44:48.600
which they eventually traced a call

44:48.600 --> 44:49.760
and that was how they caught me,

44:51.340 --> 44:55.380
they basically gave up the rights

44:55.380 --> 44:56.680
to decide whether or not

44:56.680 --> 44:58.640
there was going to be a prosecution.

44:59.820 --> 45:01.660
They could choose not to prosecute

45:01.660 --> 45:04.460
but the prosecutor still had a choice

45:04.460 --> 45:06.880
of whether to charge me

45:06.880 --> 45:08.820
and of course he would do that.

45:09.160 --> 45:14.400
So it was a strange time when it came to the laws

45:14.400 --> 45:17.920
and just the discrepancy between,

45:18.320 --> 45:20.760
like when all was said and done

45:20.760 --> 45:24.840
and there were loads and loads of newspaper articles

45:24.840 --> 45:28.440
from this, like when it first hit the news

45:28.440 --> 45:30.360
it was front page on all the papers

45:30.360 --> 45:33.780
and nightly news was covering it.

45:33.960 --> 45:38.080
It was surreal actually coming out of the courtroom

45:38.080 --> 45:40.760
when I initially pled innocent

45:41.490 --> 45:42.860
and later changed the plea

45:42.860 --> 45:45.680
we were just buying some time for the court case

45:46.530 --> 45:48.760
but when I came out of the courtroom

45:48.760 --> 45:52.460
it was a wall of reporters and lights flashing

45:52.460 --> 45:54.580
and I was a deer caught in the headlights

45:54.580 --> 45:59.480
and it was just a bizarre thing

45:59.480 --> 46:03.660
that they were very interested in

46:04.940 --> 46:07.360
but when all was said and done at the end

46:07.880 --> 46:10.140
it had kind of moved to the back of the A section

46:10.140 --> 46:12.640
of the newspapers, it was no longer front page news

46:13.130 --> 46:14.720
and they were just kind of doing a recap

46:16.340 --> 46:19.080
and there was an article covering my story

46:19.470 --> 46:23.300
with a picture of me saying a light jail term

46:23.300 --> 46:28.420
for young hacker and summarizing the case

46:29.350 --> 46:31.940
and then to the right of that on the same page

46:32.590 --> 46:35.980
was another article that said killer of state man

46:35.980 --> 46:37.700
given five years probation.

46:38.220 --> 46:39.400
Killer of state.

46:40.280 --> 46:43.260
State man, so a man from Washington state

46:43.260 --> 46:46.700
killer of state man, so somebody from Washington

46:47.400 --> 46:50.180
was, there was a bar room fight

46:50.180 --> 46:51.820
and somebody got stabbed to death

46:52.480 --> 46:56.560
and this guy got off with probation.

46:57.420 --> 46:59.140
He had literally killed somebody

46:59.560 --> 47:01.780
and did not serve a single day in jail

47:02.520 --> 47:06.360
and I had gotten into computers, had not damaged them,

47:07.020 --> 47:09.820
had not broken anything, had actually

47:10.220 --> 47:11.820
in the case of these corporations

47:11.820 --> 47:14.880
which I got into, I mean we didn't mention this

47:14.880 --> 47:19.140
but the four companies that I was charged with infiltrating

47:19.620 --> 47:24.200
were Microsoft, Boeing, Sunstrand and Kenworth Trucking.

47:24.460 --> 47:26.760
They picked just the four biggest names.

47:27.080 --> 47:29.660
They had my crib sheet as it was called

47:29.660 --> 47:32.180
and all of my, I kept very good notes

47:32.180 --> 47:33.520
of all the stuff that I was doing

47:33.520 --> 47:34.800
which was not very intelligent

47:34.800 --> 47:39.340
because I should have disposed of all of that

47:39.780 --> 47:41.880
when I got the knock at the door.

47:43.340 --> 47:45.880
So they could have charged me with a whole lot more

47:45.880 --> 47:49.080
but they did that just to save themselves paperwork

47:49.080 --> 47:51.660
and they picked the biggest, most striking name.

47:52.020 --> 47:57.020
So yeah, but I'd gotten into these computers

47:57.020 --> 47:59.420
and if anything I did them all a favor

47:59.420 --> 48:01.180
because I wasn't a malicious hacker

48:01.780 --> 48:03.740
and I went to jail for it

48:03.740 --> 48:05.380
and this guy stabbed somebody to death

48:05.380 --> 48:06.740
and got off with probation.

48:07.180 --> 48:11.140
So I was like, there I was 19 at that point

48:11.140 --> 48:14.920
and I just said the American justice system

48:14.920 --> 48:16.580
is hopelessly wrecked

48:16.580 --> 48:18.680
and I had no faith in American justice

48:18.680 --> 48:20.980
after seeing those two articles

48:20.980 --> 48:22.500
juxtaposed on the paper.

48:23.460 --> 48:25.940
Yeah, it's hard to have a respect for a system

48:25.940 --> 48:27.640
that continually makes a bigger deal

48:27.640 --> 48:29.000
out of victimless crimes

48:29.620 --> 48:32.420
and then turns rather blind eye

48:32.420 --> 48:37.260
to the true victim full crimes.

48:37.920 --> 48:41.780
Yeah, I was given a book by my dad

48:41.780 --> 48:46.160
when I was 22 or 23 called The Emperor Wears No Clothes.

48:46.480 --> 48:47.520
Ever heard of that?

48:47.840 --> 48:48.140
For sure.

48:48.600 --> 48:51.320
Yeah, it's just for those who haven't

48:51.320 --> 48:53.440
it's basically telling the story

48:53.440 --> 48:54.700
of the prohibition of marijuana

48:55.040 --> 48:56.120
and how it came about

48:56.120 --> 48:57.780
and who was behind that

48:57.780 --> 48:59.440
and what the real reasons were.

49:00.240 --> 49:04.480
And I read that book and I lost all faith.

49:05.100 --> 49:08.080
Any remaining faith I had in American justice

49:08.080 --> 49:09.920
was gone after reading that

49:09.920 --> 49:12.300
because that was at a time

49:12.300 --> 49:15.000
when they were just jailing people left and right

49:15.000 --> 49:17.220
for victimless crimes.

49:17.640 --> 49:20.820
You're consuming a plant made by God

49:20.820 --> 49:25.180
and they're throwing you in jail for it

49:25.180 --> 49:27.920
because some bigwig has decided that,

49:27.920 --> 49:30.800
no, we can't have people having access to that

49:30.800 --> 49:32.300
because they could fuel their homes

49:32.300 --> 49:35.040
and clothe themselves and feed themselves

49:35.040 --> 49:37.880
and heal themselves all with one plant.

49:38.240 --> 49:40.260
So better suppress that.

49:40.740 --> 49:43.780
And yeah, that was a big eye opener for me.

49:44.460 --> 49:46.540
Yeah, there are probably still people in jail

49:46.540 --> 49:49.740
for cannabis crimes or hemp crimes.

49:50.240 --> 49:52.500
Yeah, well, they came out with three strikes

49:52.500 --> 49:55.940
of your outlaw in a number of states.

49:56.660 --> 49:58.560
So some people ended up with life in prison

49:58.560 --> 50:01.280
and they're still there for a plant.

50:02.160 --> 50:03.760
You know, it's just insane.

50:03.900 --> 50:06.260
That's illegal in a great deal of places now.

50:06.400 --> 50:10.020
Not all states of the U.S., but...

50:10.020 --> 50:11.500
Yeah, you'd think with the change of the laws

50:11.500 --> 50:12.760
they would free all those people.

50:13.540 --> 50:14.400
Oh, I know, I know.

50:15.620 --> 50:17.080
Yeah, that was another thing,

50:17.180 --> 50:18.500
learning about the prison system

50:18.500 --> 50:19.940
and that it was privatized

50:19.940 --> 50:24.140
and that you could send somebody to Harvard

50:24.140 --> 50:26.980
for cheaper than it cost to house them

50:26.980 --> 50:27.980
for a year in a prison.

50:27.980 --> 50:32.700
Like, hmm, somebody's making a lot of money off of prisons.

50:32.960 --> 50:34.980
Maybe that's why they wanna throw people in jail

50:34.980 --> 50:36.500
for victimless crimes.

50:37.320 --> 50:39.680
Yeah, that's what it all speaks to is,

50:40.400 --> 50:43.000
first of all, like a real engineered situation,

50:43.580 --> 50:46.280
creating crime where there was no crime

50:46.280 --> 50:50.460
and then that's just a ticker tape for,

50:50.920 --> 50:51.820
is that the right expression?

50:52.060 --> 50:56.720
Ticker tape or cash register tape

50:56.720 --> 50:58.120
or something like that.

50:58.720 --> 51:01.200
Yeah, yeah, that goes...

51:01.200 --> 51:03.520
And it's nice and endless, right?

51:03.600 --> 51:06.080
Because there's going to be a steady supply.

51:06.800 --> 51:10.520
People continue to do things that are not actually wrong

51:11.140 --> 51:13.040
because we internally know that.

51:13.360 --> 51:17.760
And so, yeah, there's no shortage of customers,

51:18.100 --> 51:19.240
let's say, for that business.

51:20.280 --> 51:21.840
Yeah, I think crime rates go down

51:21.840 --> 51:24.860
in the countries that decriminalize, you know.

51:27.480 --> 51:29.780
I don't know, statistics off top of my head,

51:29.860 --> 51:31.620
but I've heard that on many occasions.

51:32.440 --> 51:33.880
I mean, it makes sense, you know,

51:33.980 --> 51:37.080
if you give the addicts what they need,

51:37.640 --> 51:39.480
then they're not gonna have to break into homes

51:39.480 --> 51:44.120
and steal TVs, you know, to pay for their drug habits.

51:45.080 --> 51:49.120
Exactly, yeah, I was in Colorado last year,

51:49.120 --> 51:52.140
which is one of the original states that legalized.

51:52.380 --> 51:54.880
And I was shocked, you could see for,

51:54.880 --> 51:56.980
I swear, five miles driving,

51:57.440 --> 51:59.620
you could see the sign of the business

52:00.140 --> 52:03.100
and they would make it a monumental scale,

52:03.460 --> 52:04.280
the cannabis business.

52:04.660 --> 52:08.260
And that's almost most of the advertising on the highway

52:08.840 --> 52:12.200
was a cannabis chain of one or the other, right?

52:12.320 --> 52:15.180
Like, it's so big, it's massive.

52:16.340 --> 52:19.040
But, you know, try to go through the border either way

52:19.040 --> 52:22.260
with any amount of that and they've got you,

52:22.260 --> 52:23.800
like in the border laws,

52:24.040 --> 52:26.260
even though you drive it from one place to the other,

52:26.360 --> 52:29.580
where it's like legal in both places, it's just madness.

52:29.640 --> 52:30.240
Oh my gosh.

52:30.520 --> 52:33.720
Oh, because you're crossing state lines with contraband.

52:34.540 --> 52:36.680
In this case, like country lines,

52:36.820 --> 52:38.100
US border kind of stuff.

52:38.500 --> 52:40.020
When I think about it, North Dakota,

52:40.220 --> 52:41.820
I don't think they actually legalized.

52:42.040 --> 52:43.540
So yeah, that would be our border.

52:44.900 --> 52:46.800
Well, I moved to Europe in 97

52:46.800 --> 52:49.060
and I've been here pretty much ever since.

52:49.060 --> 52:53.260
And so none of it was legalized when I left.

52:53.720 --> 52:57.460
And so it's been interesting going back to the States

52:57.460 --> 53:01.820
and seeing how it's changed, you know, in that time,

53:02.080 --> 53:05.080
like during COVID, I went five years without going back.

53:05.280 --> 53:08.620
And then I went back and I like a smoke, you know.

53:09.200 --> 53:12.840
And so I went into these, you know,

53:13.020 --> 53:13.820
what do you call them?

53:14.660 --> 53:15.200
Dispensaries.

53:15.780 --> 53:16.720
Dispensaries, yes.

53:16.720 --> 53:19.140
And I was blown away.

53:19.240 --> 53:22.620
It was like, this is not what it was like when I was young.

53:23.520 --> 53:27.060
It's just like all this technology I'd never seen before.

53:27.620 --> 53:28.680
Like things that do stuff

53:28.680 --> 53:30.420
and I don't even know why you'd wanna do them.

53:30.580 --> 53:34.180
And you know, it's just like, what happened?

53:34.480 --> 53:35.600
It's surreal for me.

53:36.020 --> 53:37.880
Yeah, yeah, it's massive explosions.

53:37.960 --> 53:39.560
Become kind of like bougie almost.

53:39.800 --> 53:40.960
You go into some of those stores,

53:41.480 --> 53:43.960
I've only been in a few, but they're all like very

53:45.400 --> 53:46.040
posh and

53:46.040 --> 53:46.920
Oh yeah.

53:47.200 --> 53:49.940
Super customer service and people coming in

53:49.940 --> 53:53.720
and they're like, I'm just like, where's the green at?

53:54.000 --> 53:56.920
Yeah, just like, I don't care what strain it is,

53:57.020 --> 53:57.780
just give me a week.

53:58.180 --> 54:00.960
Yeah, you get a menu that as long as you're on.

54:01.260 --> 54:03.480
Yeah, yeah, it's like these nuances.

54:03.980 --> 54:05.400
And oh, this one has, it's like,

54:05.460 --> 54:07.440
it's like a, you know, a sommelier

54:07.440 --> 54:09.580
or something, a wine connoisseur, you know.

54:09.760 --> 54:12.180
It's like a hint of cherry and a bit of musk

54:12.180 --> 54:12.540
in there.

54:14.540 --> 54:15.460
Yeah, yeah.

54:15.620 --> 54:17.540
Oh boy, but get off on a tangent there.

54:17.700 --> 54:19.360
I could go, I could go for that one.

54:19.760 --> 54:21.500
I was gonna ask you just like,

54:21.660 --> 54:25.540
so your main motivation you said was the fun of it.

54:27.060 --> 54:28.740
Can you unfold that?

54:29.000 --> 54:30.320
Like, is it the adventure fun?

54:30.520 --> 54:31.500
Is the frightening?

54:31.640 --> 54:32.240
Yeah, well,

54:32.300 --> 54:33.920
Go on scary rides.

54:34.680 --> 54:35.960
It's the learning stuff.

54:36.240 --> 54:37.640
It's, yeah, it's going on.

54:37.820 --> 54:40.640
You know, it's the thrill of conquest

54:41.340 --> 54:44.960
and like being somewhere you're not supposed to be.

54:45.500 --> 54:49.080
And this idea of being able to control something

54:49.080 --> 54:53.640
at a distance was, it felt like a superpower back then.

54:54.120 --> 54:56.500
Like, I mean, just the first time I got online

54:56.500 --> 54:58.180
and connected to a bulletin board,

54:58.760 --> 55:00.680
some might not know what those are

55:00.680 --> 55:03.220
that it basically like think of today's forums

55:03.220 --> 55:06.120
where you have, you know, a website you go to

55:06.120 --> 55:07.540
and then there's different topics

55:07.540 --> 55:10.160
and you can post and other people can reply

55:10.160 --> 55:12.060
and you can send messages to each other.

55:12.400 --> 55:13.800
That's what a bulletin board was,

55:13.840 --> 55:16.640
but it was in an individual's computer.

55:16.920 --> 55:20.140
And so for most people it was just one phone line, right?

55:20.280 --> 55:22.860
So you'd call up and only one person

55:22.860 --> 55:24.700
could be on that computer at a time.

55:25.020 --> 55:26.880
Later on they got multiple lines,

55:27.180 --> 55:30.560
but you would log in and see if you had any messages

55:30.560 --> 55:32.740
and check the forum to see what, you know,

55:33.100 --> 55:35.000
what had been posted since you were there last.

55:35.460 --> 55:37.860
And I just remember the first time I got on one of those,

55:37.860 --> 55:41.600
it was like, you know, it was like mainlining, you know,

55:41.800 --> 55:46.120
it was just crazy how exciting it was,

55:46.260 --> 55:48.440
especially hearing that sound of the modems.

55:48.920 --> 55:54.240
And then eventually I got to know other people

55:54.240 --> 55:57.300
who had knowledge and I was able to learn things.

55:57.600 --> 55:59.320
Like I said, that made it possible for me

55:59.320 --> 56:00.420
to make calls for free.

56:00.660 --> 56:05.560
And then it really became a social life for me

56:05.560 --> 56:08.600
and I was through those party lines,

56:08.900 --> 56:13.400
but also just direct contact with different hackers

56:13.400 --> 56:19.080
that I knew who many of them were a lot more knowledgeable

56:19.080 --> 56:19.820
than I was.

56:20.140 --> 56:25.200
And I was really like open to learning.

56:25.620 --> 56:26.360
I was curious.

56:26.800 --> 56:32.380
I was gregarious and outgoing and humble.

56:32.580 --> 56:35.140
And so they liked me and they took me under their wings.

56:35.140 --> 56:39.820
I mean, information was the coin of the realm.

56:40.460 --> 56:44.400
So if you knew stuff, you know, even if you were a jerk,

56:44.560 --> 56:47.640
if you had a lot of knowledge, people respected you

56:47.640 --> 56:53.340
and wanted to cozy up because of what they might get,

56:53.980 --> 56:55.640
you know, in the way of information.

56:57.380 --> 57:00.280
So yeah, it was a very interesting world

57:00.280 --> 57:02.100
with a lot of unusual characters.

57:02.100 --> 57:06.040
And when I started to meet them in person, you know,

57:06.080 --> 57:08.120
they were anything but the, I mean,

57:08.140 --> 57:10.500
some were the classic, you know, nerds

57:10.500 --> 57:13.640
with the tape on the glasses and pocket protector,

57:13.780 --> 57:15.600
but that was really the minority.

57:16.020 --> 57:18.520
People came from all walks of life

57:18.520 --> 57:19.680
and were different ages.

57:21.340 --> 57:26.960
And yeah, it was the thing I love about hacking,

57:27.480 --> 57:31.400
which, you know, when we look at the tenets

57:31.400 --> 57:35.960
of the hacking ethic, it really mirrors

57:35.960 --> 57:39.560
the truth or community of today, right?

57:39.760 --> 57:42.140
It's a general distrust of authority.

57:42.940 --> 57:47.880
It's a love of technology, decentralization

57:48.980 --> 57:52.340
as a way of keeping power in the hands of the people

57:52.340 --> 57:55.160
rather than, you know, everything funneling upward

57:55.160 --> 57:59.140
to the nefarious fucktards that are running the show.

57:59.140 --> 58:03.180
You know, we need, I mean, this is what all of these,

58:05.480 --> 58:07.900
the encryption and all these different things

58:07.900 --> 58:10.440
are so valuable for, you know,

58:10.520 --> 58:12.560
but they're trying to do away with it,

58:12.680 --> 58:16.140
with the CBDCs and Digital ID and all that

58:16.140 --> 58:19.580
and go for the full-blown fascist boot

58:19.580 --> 58:21.160
when it comes to technology.

58:22.140 --> 58:26.640
So the hackers were the antithesis of that.

58:26.640 --> 58:32.020
They were seeking to make the world a better place.

58:32.160 --> 58:35.900
And it was the idea that life could be made better

58:35.900 --> 58:40.600
through technology, if it wasn't corrupted or co-opted.

58:41.300 --> 58:45.180
And so that idea of decentralization,

58:45.440 --> 58:48.740
distrust and authority, information should be free.

58:49.420 --> 58:51.760
Things that can be used for the betterment

58:51.760 --> 58:54.720
of humanity or improvements in the world

58:55.280 --> 58:56.420
shouldn't be patented.

58:56.720 --> 58:58.120
They shouldn't be, you know,

58:58.460 --> 59:00.860
something where somebody's holding the purse strings

59:00.860 --> 59:03.720
on all of that and greed runs the show,

59:03.860 --> 59:05.220
which is what we live in now.

59:05.880 --> 59:08.700
So I think that's, you know,

59:08.760 --> 59:11.540
lines up perfectly with the hacker ethic.

59:12.000 --> 59:14.360
I mean, you know, with the truth or community

59:14.780 --> 59:16.940
or for lack of a better term,

59:17.120 --> 59:19.140
it's that's a term thrown around a lot,

59:19.200 --> 59:23.080
but community is also not necessarily the best term

59:23.080 --> 59:26.340
oftentimes, but it's the same ideas.

59:26.900 --> 59:27.600
That's great.

59:28.080 --> 59:29.660
Yeah, it's a kind of Robin Hood thing, right?

59:30.480 --> 59:32.220
That, yeah.

59:32.800 --> 59:33.080
Seeing the picture.

59:33.080 --> 59:36.560
Yeah, Robin Hood, definitely taken from the rich,

59:36.900 --> 59:37.680
giving to the poor.

59:39.060 --> 59:40.620
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

59:41.160 --> 59:43.520
Welcome to Trinity 4, Mike explained.

59:43.660 --> 59:44.240
Hey Dave.

59:44.400 --> 59:45.300
Welcome to Trinity 7, yeah.

59:45.880 --> 59:48.380
Got to hang out with him recently here in Spain.

59:50.060 --> 59:54.180
My friend, Alex Michael had an amazing party

59:54.180 --> 59:57.920
that Dave was highly influential in bringing about.

59:59.260 --> 01:00:02.120
And he's right there and partially wrong.

01:00:02.680 --> 01:00:05.780
It's a seven, it's a five planet stellium in the seventh house.

01:00:06.320 --> 01:00:08.660
So I always love the number seven.

01:00:09.020 --> 01:00:11.580
So that's where the stellium seven comes from.

01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:13.320
Nice, nice.

01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:14.300
Very good.

01:00:15.700 --> 01:00:17.100
Let's see, where should we go?

01:00:17.100 --> 01:00:20.660
Yeah, so I was, just to say it out loud,

01:00:20.720 --> 01:00:22.420
I'm sure I could sit and guess on my own,

01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:26.340
but your motivation being the high tech joy ride

01:00:26.340 --> 01:00:27.680
or that was the headline anyway.

01:00:28.460 --> 01:00:32.640
What were other, like you think there's a whole range

01:00:32.640 --> 01:00:34.760
of motivation like outright thieves

01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:38.440
that just saw it as a way to go and get rich quick.

01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:42.120
What are the range of motives that people?

01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:44.980
Yeah, I mean, you've got everything from, you know,

01:00:46.080 --> 01:00:49.080
amoral psychopathic types on ego trips,

01:00:49.560 --> 01:00:51.440
which, you know, that's what they want you

01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:52.780
to believe all the hackers are.

01:00:53.020 --> 01:00:54.720
I mean, there was a concerted effort

01:00:55.240 --> 01:00:58.400
to demonize hacking in the eyes of the public.

01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:01.040
And it really started in 83

01:01:01.040 --> 01:01:02.960
when the movie War Games came out.

01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:06.100
That was where they presented this idea

01:01:06.100 --> 01:01:08.440
that a young kid messing around on the computer

01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:11.060
could accidentally trigger World War three

01:01:11.740 --> 01:01:17.180
and only through luck was that averted, right?

01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:21.520
And that was all propaganda to make, you know,

01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:25.580
the keyboard warriors, these people who are interested

01:01:25.580 --> 01:01:27.400
in tech and sharing information

01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:29.400
and trying to gain the system

01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:31.500
because they knew the system was corrupt, you know?

01:01:31.600 --> 01:01:34.240
It's like they kept raising the prices on the phone,

01:01:34.420 --> 01:01:35.860
you know, the phone calls.

01:01:36.240 --> 01:01:39.160
And well, wait a minute, the infrastructure's already there.

01:01:39.340 --> 01:01:40.740
Shouldn't the prices be coming down

01:01:40.740 --> 01:01:42.560
as they recoup the investments?

01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:45.360
Same thing when, you know, they made CDs.

01:01:45.700 --> 01:01:48.340
All of a sudden, you know, CDs were $3, $4

01:01:49.140 --> 01:01:50.780
more expensive than the vinyl.

01:01:52.060 --> 01:01:54.900
But that only was the case for about, well,

01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:57.960
the excuse was that the price of production

01:01:57.960 --> 01:01:59.600
was much higher on the CDs

01:01:59.600 --> 01:02:01.000
because it was a new technology.

01:02:01.240 --> 01:02:02.280
But within a year or two,

01:02:02.640 --> 01:02:05.360
the price came way down below that of vinyl.

01:02:05.780 --> 01:02:08.140
So they should have lowered the price then,

01:02:08.220 --> 01:02:08.940
but they never did.

01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:11.480
They just kept raising prices and more.

01:02:11.860 --> 01:02:16.060
So that gives birth to things like peer-to-peer networking

01:02:16.060 --> 01:02:18.400
and file sharing.

01:02:18.660 --> 01:02:20.360
That's when Napster came about, right?

01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:23.040
Because people are like, these guys are,

01:02:23.180 --> 01:02:24.900
they're not giving the money to the artists

01:02:25.450 --> 01:02:27.860
and they're just putting in their pockets

01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:28.960
and running away with it

01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:30.780
and getting more and more power as a result.

01:02:31.120 --> 01:02:35.740
So that gives rise to new technologies

01:02:35.740 --> 01:02:40.020
and innovations that are wonderful

01:02:40.020 --> 01:02:43.900
and have been game changers

01:02:43.900 --> 01:02:46.280
for trying to wrestle the power back

01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:49.980
into the hands of the common folk.

01:02:51.700 --> 01:02:54.820
But it really is, like you said, Robin Hood.

01:02:56.240 --> 01:02:57.780
But back to your question,

01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:00.420
that it's the whole spectrum of people.

01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.880
I mean, you've got, I was questionable

01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:08.300
in my morality because I was, I was thieving.

01:03:08.860 --> 01:03:12.360
I was stealing, I was a klepto when I was a teenager,

01:03:13.620 --> 01:03:16.800
just like, I didn't have the money

01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:17.900
to have the things I wanted.

01:03:18.080 --> 01:03:20.260
So I could just take them and I would justify

01:03:21.560 --> 01:03:23.100
and rationalize it in different ways.

01:03:23.380 --> 01:03:25.880
And I talk about that extensively in the book.

01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:28.280
The book is by no means a glorification

01:03:28.280 --> 01:03:29.560
of illegal activity.

01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.460
It's, it's, you know,

01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:36.120
the, it's a very exciting read

01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:39.560
because it's first person, me,

01:03:40.160 --> 01:03:41.500
as I'm making these discoveries

01:03:41.500 --> 01:03:43.920
and meeting these people and going on these adventures

01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:46.620
and doing this crazy stuff that I was doing.

01:03:47.660 --> 01:03:51.560
But the narration is adult me 30 years later,

01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:55.340
40 years later, that is kind of looking back on it

01:03:55.340 --> 01:03:59.320
with a sober, sober view and reflecting

01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.660
on why I did the things that I did.

01:04:03.340 --> 01:04:07.940
And also the kind of the catharsis is the catharsis

01:04:07.940 --> 01:04:11.960
that came about as a result of the things that happened

01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:15.060
to me where I realized that I didn't want

01:04:15.060 --> 01:04:16.520
to do those things any longer.

01:04:17.140 --> 01:04:19.800
And not because I was afraid of the consequences,

01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:23.140
but because I had reached a, you know,

01:04:23.640 --> 01:04:26.120
a higher degree of morality in my life.

01:04:26.120 --> 01:04:30.100
So I think it's a great read for teenagers in that respect

01:04:30.100 --> 01:04:32.680
because, because they, you know,

01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:35.780
they might identify with the kinds of things

01:04:35.780 --> 01:04:37.200
that I was going through in school

01:04:37.740 --> 01:04:39.100
and the troubles that I had.

01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:41.740
And, you know, so many children now

01:04:41.740 --> 01:04:44.060
are living on their computers.

01:04:45.040 --> 01:04:46.600
I mean, the gamer world,

01:04:47.180 --> 01:04:49.560
when we look at the numbers on truth videos,

01:04:49.860 --> 01:04:51.580
you know, it's thousands of views,

01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:54.920
maybe something gets up to tens of thousands

01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:58.340
or 100,000, but when you look at the gaming community,

01:04:58.660 --> 01:05:00.160
there's hundreds of millions of people

01:05:00.160 --> 01:05:03.320
that are playing these games constantly

01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:05.500
and they're in touch with each other

01:05:05.500 --> 01:05:07.840
through Discord and through different platforms.

01:05:08.280 --> 01:05:12.500
And that's kind of how I was living back in 1982

01:05:13.200 --> 01:05:16.340
and three and four and five when I finally got busted.

01:05:16.600 --> 01:05:19.720
So it really was a head of the game

01:05:19.720 --> 01:05:21.840
when it came to the kind of world we're in now.

01:05:22.520 --> 01:05:23.280
That's awesome.

01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:25.900
Yeah, I think I'm gonna give my son a copy for Christmas.

01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:27.940
By the way, this is-

01:05:27.940 --> 01:05:29.640
It makes a great Christmas present.

01:05:30.080 --> 01:05:31.640
Yeah, exactly.

01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:35.780
This is the direct link to amazon.com in the chat here

01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:39.640
to the book and I've got it up on the screen as well.

01:05:39.740 --> 01:05:42.280
So if you haven't seen the book before,

01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:43.740
I liked the cover a lot actually.

01:05:43.940 --> 01:05:46.000
It was fun to do it with a thumbnail too.

01:05:46.660 --> 01:05:47.180
Thank you.

01:05:47.700 --> 01:05:49.760
Yeah, a lot of work went into that

01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:53.020
and there's little hidden stuff in there as well

01:05:53.020 --> 01:05:55.740
for people who like Easter eggs

01:05:55.740 --> 01:05:57.520
so on the front and the back cover.

01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:01.500
Oh, for people who like Easter eggs.

01:06:01.700 --> 01:06:04.320
Oh, so there's some interesting details in there.

01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:05.820
Yeah, let's see if we can find anything.

01:06:05.980 --> 01:06:07.460
Nothing too exotic.

01:06:07.980 --> 01:06:10.440
Okay, do you spell words in these like-

01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:12.220
Yeah, there's two of them right there.

01:06:12.640 --> 01:06:14.200
Okay, all right, let me see.

01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:20.260
Yeah, there's-

01:06:20.260 --> 01:06:23.200
Right, upper left, there's the word sys test

01:06:23.200 --> 01:06:28.960
and then UETP, which is the login and password

01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:33.900
for the server that I've gotten into at Microsoft.

01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:36.340
Oh, that is a lot of detail.

01:06:38.340 --> 01:06:41.040
And then it says the sprinter there right in the middle,

01:06:41.080 --> 01:06:42.640
which was my handle as a hacker.

01:06:43.040 --> 01:06:45.560
Okay, okay, that's the one word I actually can see.

01:06:46.020 --> 01:06:48.000
Yeah, yeah, nice other code there.

01:06:48.040 --> 01:06:49.400
There's stuff on the back cover as well.

01:06:49.400 --> 01:06:50.720
Okay, neat.

01:06:51.380 --> 01:06:54.320
Yeah, so that would be fun to get a hard copy of.

01:06:54.860 --> 01:06:58.900
If you click on the go down, no further down,

01:06:59.060 --> 01:07:01.820
not on the screen below, there's two.

01:07:02.200 --> 01:07:04.280
There's a second, you can click on the back cover.

01:07:04.780 --> 01:07:05.180
Oh, you can?

01:07:05.640 --> 01:07:07.760
Yeah, no, no, right.

01:07:08.460 --> 01:07:11.280
Where it says read sample on the left, just above that.

01:07:11.420 --> 01:07:12.820
Oh, right, there's the back cover, nice.

01:07:14.660 --> 01:07:18.980
And that is, that's a lot of fun

01:07:18.980 --> 01:07:22.020
because Gary McKinnon, he's got a blurb there

01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:24.700
and he was one of the most famous hackers in the world

01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:26.380
for about a decade.

01:07:26.720 --> 01:07:31.180
He was in the UK and got busted for breaking the Pentagon

01:07:31.180 --> 01:07:36.040
and NASA and the Department of Defense as well.

01:07:36.680 --> 01:07:38.820
He got into something like 90 computers

01:07:38.820 --> 01:07:40.580
and they were trying to extradite him

01:07:40.580 --> 01:07:44.840
for a number of years and didn't succeed, fortunately.

01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:48.920
Theresa May, it was, I think the prime minister in the UK

01:07:49.620 --> 01:07:55.100
at the time was, she ratified the extradition treaty

01:07:55.100 --> 01:07:59.540
that the UK had with the US and basically made it

01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:02.620
so that they wouldn't be able to pull him out of the country.

01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:09.800
And yeah, he showed up on my channel

01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:11.720
and made a comment on one of my videos

01:08:11.720 --> 01:08:14.420
and I recognized his name and I couldn't believe it

01:08:14.420 --> 01:08:16.840
and I thought, is he here because he knows

01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:20.220
about the hacking stuff or is he here for my channel

01:08:20.220 --> 01:08:22.160
and he didn't know about the hacking

01:08:22.160 --> 01:08:26.180
and I had done a Kickstarter campaign a few years back

01:08:26.180 --> 01:08:30.040
trying to drum up some money for editing

01:08:30.040 --> 01:08:31.680
and that sort of thing with the book.

01:08:32.620 --> 01:08:36.020
And I thought maybe he had seen the promotional video

01:08:36.020 --> 01:08:38.740
that I had made, which was just a little three minute

01:08:38.740 --> 01:08:42.000
clip and he hadn't, he didn't know anything about my past.

01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:44.000
So we ended up having conversations

01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.180
and recorded several hours of conversation

01:08:48.180 --> 01:08:51.740
and I posted the first hour on my channel.

01:08:52.700 --> 01:08:55.020
But that was, it was just a fun synchronicity

01:08:55.020 --> 01:09:00.020
that led to a really nice blurb on the back cover.

01:09:00.160 --> 01:09:01.920
He wrote the forward to the book as well.

01:09:02.180 --> 01:09:03.700
Okay, oh, fun, yeah.

01:09:03.980 --> 01:09:06.680
So, and that sounds like the only contact you've had

01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:09.000
with that old community of yours then.

01:09:10.400 --> 01:09:11.540
Is that true?

01:09:11.540 --> 01:09:15.660
It's interesting, I did a launch party

01:09:15.660 --> 01:09:21.080
on the 17th of October, the 40 year anniversary for the book

01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:25.060
and literally the night that I was gonna do that

01:09:25.060 --> 01:09:28.700
I had sent a few days before an email

01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:32.300
to an old email address that I thought was defunct

01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:37.580
to the guy who was basically my best hacking buddy

01:09:38.140 --> 01:09:39.000
during that time.

01:09:39.360 --> 01:09:42.160
And I hadn't had any contact with him for years

01:09:42.820 --> 01:09:43.980
and he responded.

01:09:44.420 --> 01:09:47.620
And I was like, oh, I send him the link to the book

01:09:47.620 --> 01:09:52.320
and the little video clip, which we could play

01:09:52.320 --> 01:09:54.400
at the end for people who'd like to see it.

01:09:54.620 --> 01:09:55.020
Oh, sure.

01:09:57.160 --> 01:10:00.700
And yeah, so we had, he asked me, he's like,

01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:03.440
he's like, you didn't use my name, did you?

01:10:05.380 --> 01:10:07.680
You're still paranoid after all these years.

01:10:09.900 --> 01:10:13.380
But yeah, so that was kind of funny that he showed up

01:10:13.380 --> 01:10:16.300
on my radar, literally on the 40 year anniversary

01:10:16.300 --> 01:10:17.400
of my bust, so.

01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:19.160
Amazing.

01:10:19.300 --> 01:10:19.800
For the odds.

01:10:20.380 --> 01:10:21.660
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.760
Oh, fantastic, yeah, definitely recommend the book.

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:29.300
It's very nicely written, it's easy to read,

01:10:29.400 --> 01:10:31.720
easy to listen to, also I had some of it just playing

01:10:32.500 --> 01:10:34.320
in my series.

01:10:35.220 --> 01:10:35.760
Thank you.

01:10:36.420 --> 01:10:40.520
Yeah, on that launch party, I read the first chapter aloud

01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:43.380
and someone said that I had a very,

01:10:43.820 --> 01:10:46.960
what was it, a creamy smooth voice with excellent diction.

01:10:48.460 --> 01:10:48.960
Nice.

01:10:49.340 --> 01:10:50.980
I was like, okay, that's a good compliment.

01:10:51.280 --> 01:10:54.900
But I really wrote it to be a page turner.

01:10:55.360 --> 01:10:58.900
I wanted it to have a good pace and flow.

01:10:59.580 --> 01:11:02.720
Chapters are short, so it's like you kind of want

01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:04.200
to keep reading it.

01:11:05.080 --> 01:11:11.000
And I've had at least half a dozen authors have read it

01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:15.020
and I've gotten really good reviews from all of them.

01:11:15.340 --> 01:11:17.960
So I feel good about the job I did.

01:11:18.140 --> 01:11:22.000
There was 40 years in the process that ought to be good.

01:11:22.440 --> 01:11:27.000
I rewrote it like twice, so it's in its third version.

01:11:27.780 --> 01:11:32.100
Okay, yeah, it didn't seem like AI wrote that book.

01:11:32.460 --> 01:11:34.500
I don't want to hold it against anyone

01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:37.600
that's doing that these days, but if I discover

01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:42.320
a book's been written by AI, I lose interest pretty quick.

01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:43.880
I don't want to be mean about it,

01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:46.400
but I don't want to spend my time

01:11:48.820 --> 01:11:51.260
consuming something that a machine made.

01:11:52.040 --> 01:11:54.560
Yeah, I crafted every sentence.

01:11:55.300 --> 01:11:56.600
Amazing, amazing.

01:11:56.600 --> 01:12:00.260
And had it edited by a real editor

01:12:00.260 --> 01:12:03.200
who wasn't just plugging it into Grammarly

01:12:03.200 --> 01:12:04.080
or something like that.

01:12:04.300 --> 01:12:06.120
I had two fails.

01:12:06.660 --> 01:12:09.060
I had a failed editor and a failed proofreader

01:12:09.060 --> 01:12:12.360
that I was like, they're giving me more work

01:12:12.360 --> 01:12:13.860
because now I've got to go line by line

01:12:13.860 --> 01:12:17.700
and see what they've changed that isn't appropriate

01:12:17.700 --> 01:12:19.600
or what they've missed.

01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:23.000
So I was just, but it cost me a pretty penny

01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:26.300
in the end to have it all done professionally.

01:12:26.740 --> 01:12:30.940
So I'm far from break even at this point.

01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:32.600
Right, right.

01:12:32.740 --> 01:12:35.200
It is a hero's journey to write and publish,

01:12:35.480 --> 01:12:38.200
write, edit, proofread and publish.

01:12:39.160 --> 01:12:41.500
I know the first edition, I kind of rushed it out

01:12:41.500 --> 01:12:43.520
for my first in Narkapokko in 2020

01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:47.060
and it was full of typoism.

01:12:47.240 --> 01:12:49.660
All the first responses that I got is like,

01:12:49.660 --> 01:12:51.400
oh, this typo and that typo

01:12:51.400 --> 01:12:53.560
and it was just hanging my head like this.

01:12:54.280 --> 01:12:57.200
And yeah, I think I went through three editors,

01:12:57.400 --> 01:12:59.660
had to fire three editors

01:13:00.580 --> 01:13:06.780
and like even the so-called publisher is long gone

01:13:06.780 --> 01:13:08.840
even though his logo is still on my book.

01:13:10.260 --> 01:13:12.900
Here, he never wanted to see me again.

01:13:13.120 --> 01:13:16.560
I didn't fire him, he fired me for unknown reasons.

01:13:17.940 --> 01:13:20.960
And yeah, it is, there were days where I thought

01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:23.400
it would be absolutely impossible

01:13:23.400 --> 01:13:26.040
like and many, many, many days in a row.

01:13:26.480 --> 01:13:29.300
Oh, impossible, oh, still impossible,

01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:30.600
not gonna break through.

01:13:31.080 --> 01:13:33.660
And there were, you know, problems with the art

01:13:33.660 --> 01:13:35.960
and there was problems with the proofreaders

01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:37.320
and there was problems with the editors

01:13:37.320 --> 01:13:40.300
and at a time I was really like,

01:13:40.440 --> 01:13:44.300
oh, I was just really bothered by all of these people

01:13:44.300 --> 01:13:46.900
that were making such a mess of things.

01:13:47.320 --> 01:13:49.660
And then there came a really empowering moment

01:13:49.660 --> 01:13:51.740
where I said, you know what, I did it.

01:13:52.060 --> 01:13:53.780
All those bad things, I did it.

01:13:54.120 --> 01:13:56.480
They wouldn't do anything if I hadn't

01:13:56.480 --> 01:13:58.800
have started this whole idea

01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:00.080
and decided to write a book.

01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:01.760
Oh man, I had a book.

01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:03.920
So did you self publish in the end or did you?

01:14:04.340 --> 01:14:07.640
Through Amazon and yeah, like technically it's this

01:14:09.080 --> 01:14:10.600
Woodridge, is it Woodridge?

01:14:11.140 --> 01:14:14.160
Woodridge, I don't know.

01:14:14.620 --> 01:14:15.860
He won't talk to me anymore.

01:14:16.040 --> 01:14:20.700
So he just put his logo on here and we left it for the time.

01:14:21.080 --> 01:14:23.620
Yeah, it's really like giving birth, you know,

01:14:23.860 --> 01:14:25.660
to, I mean, the work involved,

01:14:26.080 --> 01:14:29.180
there were a number of times in the few years

01:14:29.180 --> 01:14:32.140
leading up to it, I finally, it was just like,

01:14:32.520 --> 01:14:35.720
I did a major push and I'm like, I'm doing this.

01:14:35.980 --> 01:14:39.920
And I shot myself in the foot in the sense

01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:42.780
that I didn't do all of the footwork for promotion.

01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:45.560
You know, this is like as a self publish author,

01:14:45.700 --> 01:14:47.380
that's like the most important thing of all

01:14:47.380 --> 01:14:49.080
is that you're priming the pump

01:14:49.080 --> 01:14:50.720
and trickling out the information

01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:54.660
so that when it's ready to go, people jump on it

01:14:54.660 --> 01:14:56.820
and they read it and they review it

01:14:56.820 --> 01:14:59.740
and that's how you get the algorithms working

01:14:59.740 --> 01:15:01.240
in your favor and that, you know,

01:15:01.260 --> 01:15:03.180
improves your chances of having a best seller.

01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:08.020
And I, you know, the writing fine,

01:15:08.780 --> 01:15:11.420
all that process, right up to the publishing

01:15:11.420 --> 01:15:15.100
but the promotional side of things is just not my,

01:15:15.700 --> 01:15:16.880
it's not my thing.

01:15:17.200 --> 01:15:20.720
I'm not like, even for chiropractic,

01:15:20.940 --> 01:15:23.540
like I have a website and everything is internal referral

01:15:23.540 --> 01:15:24.720
and people just come to me.

01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.780
I never like go out and promote it, you know,

01:15:27.820 --> 01:15:29.040
trying to get people in.

01:15:29.440 --> 01:15:33.600
And so interviews like this is how I reach people,

01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:39.180
but it's, you know, we'll see how it goes.

01:15:39.300 --> 01:15:40.560
I think it'll be a sleeper hit.

01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:45.600
At some point it'll find the right audience

01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:48.620
and eventually maybe even be a movie.

01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:52.660
Most of the people who've heard the story have said it,

01:15:52.660 --> 01:15:56.160
it should be a movie because it's kind of like,

01:15:56.600 --> 01:15:58.200
catch me if you can a little bit

01:15:58.200 --> 01:16:00.760
as far as the vibe and, you know,

01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:02.560
all the high jinx and everything.

01:16:03.760 --> 01:16:08.300
So I think it would be very suitable for the big screen.

01:16:08.580 --> 01:16:10.980
And basically the book is already a screenplay

01:16:10.980 --> 01:16:13.100
if you just take it scene by scene.

01:16:13.400 --> 01:16:16.400
So that's the next step, audio book

01:16:16.400 --> 01:16:19.140
and then screenplay and who knows,

01:16:19.380 --> 01:16:22.160
maybe I'll have a retirement plan after all.

01:16:22.700 --> 01:16:24.380
Yeah, that would be awesome.

01:16:24.900 --> 01:16:27.140
Definitely, audio book that was equally,

01:16:27.300 --> 01:16:29.000
I jumped on that last year

01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:30.500
and I just made a mess of it.

01:16:30.500 --> 01:16:34.560
It mangled it and I have to go back to the drawing board

01:16:35.340 --> 01:16:35.980
on that one.

01:16:35.980 --> 01:16:37.560
Yeah, I need to look into that now.

01:16:37.880 --> 01:16:41.560
And I have, you know, the potential

01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:44.320
to have access to Alex's studio

01:16:44.320 --> 01:16:46.460
so I can get the, you know, top notch sound,

01:16:46.600 --> 01:16:49.080
but there's, it's a learning curve,

01:16:49.160 --> 01:16:50.580
I'm sure with that as well.

01:16:52.060 --> 01:16:55.660
And so he's convinced it's gonna take me a month.

01:16:55.780 --> 01:16:57.420
And I'm like, no, it's gonna take a week.

01:16:57.420 --> 01:17:03.400
I was like, we'll bet, shake on it.

01:17:03.900 --> 01:17:04.800
Right, right.

01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:06.820
Yeah, the actual read wasn't too bad.

01:17:06.940 --> 01:17:09.140
It's the editing for spacing

01:17:09.140 --> 01:17:10.560
and all of that kind of thing.

01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:13.400
And then, yeah, I don't know.

01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:16.160
I don't know what, I'll have to get back to that.

01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:20.640
So you said you're about halfway in.

01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:23.100
Have you had any favorite parts

01:17:23.100 --> 01:17:25.180
or epiphanies or anything that stood out?

01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:28.380
I just like the movement overall.

01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:30.520
Like you said, it's very action packed.

01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:33.580
Every chapter leaves you wanting to know

01:17:33.580 --> 01:17:35.780
what's gonna happen in the next chapter.

01:17:36.380 --> 01:17:39.320
I like the parts just getting into your head and heart

01:17:39.320 --> 01:17:44.200
as a younger person and being willing to share

01:17:44.870 --> 01:17:47.000
where you were at, the fragility of,

01:17:47.260 --> 01:17:48.500
not to say you were fragile,

01:17:48.500 --> 01:17:50.460
but the vulnerability or, you know,

01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:51.600
however you describe that

01:17:52.240 --> 01:17:56.380
and watching how do people find their way?

01:17:56.820 --> 01:18:00.000
How do children who maybe are not so connected

01:18:01.020 --> 01:18:04.020
and have that, you didn't use the word,

01:18:04.360 --> 01:18:06.140
like shy or anything like that.

01:18:07.540 --> 01:18:12.100
But I like the unfoldment of you as a human being

01:18:12.100 --> 01:18:13.360
that we could see that.

01:18:16.180 --> 01:18:17.340
Thank you, yeah.

01:18:18.220 --> 01:18:20.080
I had an unusual upbringing.

01:18:20.080 --> 01:18:25.280
So, you know, my parents were very alternative hippies

01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:29.680
and into meditation and Eastern mysticism

01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:33.100
and my stepfather owned a health food store.

01:18:33.420 --> 01:18:35.200
He was part of a collective of people

01:18:35.200 --> 01:18:37.700
that owned a health food store called Solar Winds.

01:18:40.040 --> 01:18:45.160
And yeah, so it's an interesting story

01:18:45.160 --> 01:18:46.080
in that respect also.

01:18:46.400 --> 01:18:49.940
I actually cut about a hundred pages out of the book

01:18:49.940 --> 01:18:51.480
on my final edit.

01:18:51.700 --> 01:18:55.340
It's still 370, which is a long book,

01:18:55.620 --> 01:18:58.300
but everyone who's read it says it reads really quick

01:18:58.300 --> 01:19:01.220
so it doesn't feel as long as it is,

01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:03.240
but it was a lot longer.

01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:08.640
And I wrote it like with all of the testing the matrix.

01:19:11.660 --> 01:19:14.900
Oh, it's like, it's another YouTube channel.

01:19:15.180 --> 01:19:18.980
Okay, I have a backup YouTube channel that I never use

01:19:18.980 --> 01:19:20.020
and I saw that and I'm like,

01:19:20.080 --> 01:19:22.060
why does somebody accessing my account?

01:19:22.240 --> 01:19:24.620
And it was something that I had written.

01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:27.900
I was joking on what they,

01:19:28.120 --> 01:19:30.500
telling a joke about what they said before,

01:19:30.620 --> 01:19:35.040
but yeah, so I forgot what I was talking about.

01:19:36.840 --> 01:19:41.100
Just the evolution of, what was your last point there,

01:19:41.160 --> 01:19:43.360
the evolution of your own personhood

01:19:43.360 --> 01:19:45.380
and growing up and.

01:19:47.780 --> 01:19:49.680
Yeah, well, it's interesting.

01:19:49.940 --> 01:19:50.900
It's called The Hacker Prince

01:19:50.900 --> 01:19:54.080
and now I'm talking with you on the King Hero's podcast

01:19:56.020 --> 01:19:59.900
because I wouldn't say I've come into my kinghood yet,

01:20:00.540 --> 01:20:04.560
but maybe at some point, it's a,

01:20:04.580 --> 01:20:07.060
I no longer feel like a prince.

01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:11.640
There's a, I mean, there's word play in the title,

01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:14.820
obviously you know that as you've gotten into the story.

01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:21.940
I don't wanna give it away, but yeah, it's interesting to,

01:20:22.700 --> 01:20:24.400
like I said, it feels like another lifetime,

01:20:24.660 --> 01:20:27.920
you know, that chapter of my life

01:20:27.920 --> 01:20:31.020
and it's so different from what I'm doing now

01:20:31.520 --> 01:20:32.940
and the kinds of things we talked about

01:20:32.940 --> 01:20:35.480
in the last conversation, you know,

01:20:35.540 --> 01:20:37.940
with regards to my research and my YouTube channel

01:20:37.940 --> 01:20:40.360
and all that, it's couldn't be more different,

01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:42.920
but in a sense it's similar, you know,

01:20:42.920 --> 01:20:46.260
because it's like, I went from hacking computers

01:20:46.260 --> 01:20:47.940
to hacking reality, I suppose.

01:20:51.020 --> 01:20:51.960
Yeah, let's get out.

01:20:52.960 --> 01:20:56.920
Never got tired of asking unconventional questions

01:20:56.920 --> 01:20:59.600
and trying to pull back the veil

01:20:59.600 --> 01:21:01.600
on things you're not supposed to look at.

01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:04.080
Nice, nice, I love that.

01:21:04.320 --> 01:21:07.200
And that's what, I do a lot of work with people

01:21:07.200 --> 01:21:10.640
on sacred purpose and demystifying that,

01:21:10.640 --> 01:21:14.940
you know, some people might look on the surface

01:21:14.940 --> 01:21:17.600
and say, it was your sacred purpose to be a hacker.

01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:21.280
It's like, what's the deeper thread there

01:21:21.280 --> 01:21:22.760
that you've been revealing

01:21:23.480 --> 01:21:25.860
that is also common to your life right now,

01:21:26.040 --> 01:21:28.860
just getting deeper into truths?

01:21:29.260 --> 01:21:33.160
And so it's not that one thing is going to be the purpose,

01:21:33.340 --> 01:21:35.980
it's the thread that goes throughout,

01:21:36.180 --> 01:21:37.400
you know, your motive,

01:21:37.800 --> 01:21:40.620
the reason what motivates you behind it

01:21:40.620 --> 01:21:42.960
is more of that stuff.

01:21:44.480 --> 01:21:46.440
Yeah, what I've found in my life

01:21:46.440 --> 01:21:49.240
is that a lot of times when things do happen,

01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:52.860
you draw conclusions about what the reasons are

01:21:52.860 --> 01:21:54.340
or what the meaning of it is.

01:21:54.620 --> 01:21:58.360
And I find that it's almost always wrong,

01:21:59.400 --> 01:22:00.900
the conclusions that I've drawn.

01:22:01.120 --> 01:22:04.300
So there are things that happen along the way

01:22:04.300 --> 01:22:05.360
and things that you learn

01:22:05.360 --> 01:22:07.820
that maybe you have to learn those things

01:22:07.820 --> 01:22:09.980
in order to unlearn them later

01:22:09.980 --> 01:22:12.660
or to realize that those are falsehoods,

01:22:12.660 --> 01:22:14.720
but there are things that maybe at one point

01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:17.000
you championed and thought were the truth

01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:20.320
and that's happened to me over and over again.

01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:23.960
So it's actually freeing getting the point

01:22:23.960 --> 01:22:26.840
where you're perfectly okay saying, I don't know,

01:22:26.840 --> 01:22:28.960
but I'm curious and I'd like to know,

01:22:29.040 --> 01:22:32.920
but understanding that the truth is a slippery thing

01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:36.520
that you might not be able to pin down ever ultimately,

01:22:37.200 --> 01:22:40.640
but you can get closer to it by starting

01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:42.480
to eliminate falsehoods.

01:22:43.620 --> 01:22:45.240
Exactly, process of elimination.

01:22:46.120 --> 01:22:47.860
Sacred purpose is the same way, by the way.

01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:50.300
And yeah, that I don't know.

01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:51.640
It can be really uncommon.

01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:56.600
I'd say I'd gravitate much more recently,

01:22:56.860 --> 01:22:59.780
especially to people that are willing to say that.

01:23:00.360 --> 01:23:02.280
And when people don't know,

01:23:02.280 --> 01:23:03.280
there is a propensity,

01:23:03.460 --> 01:23:06.500
especially I find in the truth world to just,

01:23:06.620 --> 01:23:07.740
and I'll say it affectionately,

01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:11.380
I said it yesterday again, make shit up, right?

01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:12.560
When they don't know,

01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:16.220
they put their mind like a computer to work

01:23:16.220 --> 01:23:17.800
and they're connecting dots

01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:20.200
and they don't know they're making dots

01:23:20.200 --> 01:23:23.300
and there's assumptions behind things

01:23:23.300 --> 01:23:26.380
that they just consider to be truth to move forward with

01:23:26.380 --> 01:23:29.080
and they're based on false assumptions.

01:23:29.080 --> 01:23:34.600
So it's, and the end product can make a lot of sense, right?

01:23:34.720 --> 01:23:36.120
Oh, that sounds logical,

01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:39.900
but it just has no basis in reality at all.

01:23:41.200 --> 01:23:43.620
Yeah, and they get caught up in their own narratives

01:23:43.620 --> 01:23:45.360
and then their ego gets wrapped up

01:23:45.360 --> 01:23:47.600
into whatever that narrative is.

01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:50.460
And then they go on defense and on attack.

01:23:50.960 --> 01:23:54.400
And yeah, it's interesting to see

01:23:54.920 --> 01:23:57.840
how the personalities play out in the truth or sphere,

01:24:00.160 --> 01:24:04.640
but what I'm really grateful for

01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:11.900
and is like the people that I'm in contact with now,

01:24:12.990 --> 01:24:15.500
having spoken at a bunch of events

01:24:15.500 --> 01:24:17.780
and made friends with a lot of people

01:24:17.780 --> 01:24:23.160
who I was admiring from a distance through podcasts

01:24:23.160 --> 01:24:28.000
and presentations and is all of the people

01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:29.520
that I have the most respect for

01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:32.440
are willing to admit when they're wrong,

01:24:32.580 --> 01:24:34.200
willing to admit when they don't know,

01:24:35.020 --> 01:24:40.200
but are sticklers for really digging into things

01:24:40.200 --> 01:24:42.000
before making claims about them

01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:48.800
and actual adhears to the scientific method as well,

01:24:49.100 --> 01:24:51.060
like not just paying it lip service

01:24:51.060 --> 01:24:55.580
but really following it in a pedantic way.

01:24:57.300 --> 01:25:00.900
It's amazing because they're so alternative

01:25:00.900 --> 01:25:04.920
in their thinking and most of what they believe

01:25:04.920 --> 01:25:09.460
is not in alignment with the mainstream beliefs

01:25:09.460 --> 01:25:11.600
or narratives on just about anything,

01:25:11.940 --> 01:25:14.880
but these people are experts in their field,

01:25:15.120 --> 01:25:18.700
they're specialists, they're incredible minds

01:25:18.700 --> 01:25:21.220
and intellectuals and wonderful people,

01:25:22.060 --> 01:25:25.760
but they're also humble and like I said,

01:25:25.940 --> 01:25:28.020
willing to say I don't know when they don't

01:25:28.020 --> 01:25:30.400
and it's as opposed to what you were describing

01:25:30.400 --> 01:25:36.340
and just making shit up coming up with a theory tale

01:25:36.340 --> 01:25:37.820
and then thinking it's fact.

01:25:39.080 --> 01:25:41.360
Yeah, and getting attached to it with their ego

01:25:41.360 --> 01:25:43.220
and then next level is always

01:25:43.220 --> 01:25:45.140
they got attached to it financially

01:25:45.640 --> 01:25:47.720
that somehow whether it's products

01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:50.380
or they just don't wanna admit that

01:25:50.380 --> 01:25:51.780
if you go back in their streams,

01:25:51.820 --> 01:25:53.240
it does not write anymore

01:25:53.240 --> 01:25:56.520
or because they've been monetizing

01:25:56.520 --> 01:25:57.720
and all that kind of thing.

01:25:57.940 --> 01:26:00.240
So, and I'm not against it, I love entrepreneurs,

01:26:00.700 --> 01:26:04.700
I am one myself, I come from my parents

01:26:04.700 --> 01:26:08.260
who were self-made people in that respect.

01:26:08.940 --> 01:26:11.760
So, but there comes times where

01:26:12.300 --> 01:26:13.560
you're gonna have to sacrifice,

01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:15.500
this is actually one of my favorite questions

01:26:15.500 --> 01:26:17.580
that I'll ask you right now is

01:26:18.210 --> 01:26:20.600
what did you feel was true

01:26:21.370 --> 01:26:25.060
that maybe has evolved in the last six years

01:26:25.060 --> 01:26:25.720
in particular?

01:26:26.160 --> 01:26:29.940
What were any assumptions that you had moving forward

01:26:29.940 --> 01:26:31.960
about our reality, you know,

01:26:32.040 --> 01:26:33.960
you could be in the tech world

01:26:33.960 --> 01:26:38.500
or the ancient history world that you're very versed in,

01:26:38.740 --> 01:26:41.220
things that you were putting forth as true

01:26:41.220 --> 01:26:44.040
that you realized just don't have a base?

01:26:45.800 --> 01:26:46.680
Oh, wow.

01:26:47.100 --> 01:26:51.880
Well, I mentioned The Emperor Wears No Clothes,

01:26:51.960 --> 01:26:53.020
I read that at 23.

01:26:53.260 --> 01:26:55.340
So that kind of woke me up to the power structures.

01:26:56.360 --> 01:26:58.260
And then another book the same year

01:26:58.260 --> 01:27:00.820
was Behold a Pale Horse by William Cooper.

01:27:01.760 --> 01:27:06.000
So he was laying out the power structures,

01:27:06.220 --> 01:27:09.420
the secret societies, things like MKUltra,

01:27:10.040 --> 01:27:12.680
you know, all the different projects of different sorts

01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:16.940
that have now been declassified.

01:27:16.940 --> 01:27:18.380
So we know that they existed,

01:27:18.700 --> 01:27:21.920
it wasn't just a conspiracy theory of one sort or another.

01:27:22.360 --> 01:27:27.060
So I kind of woke up to all that stuff 35 years ago now.

01:27:27.940 --> 01:27:30.440
So my truth or journey has been long.

01:27:31.180 --> 01:27:33.760
And then, you know, 9-11 came around,

01:27:34.240 --> 01:27:37.000
I saw through that right off the bat,

01:27:37.530 --> 01:27:39.660
you know, even before like loose change

01:27:39.660 --> 01:27:41.560
and these other things came out,

01:27:41.700 --> 01:27:45.400
I just, I knew there was something rotten in Denmark.

01:27:46.620 --> 01:27:53.280
And then, you know, Earth shape and being,

01:27:53.880 --> 01:27:58.980
digging into NASA and space agency fakery in general

01:27:58.980 --> 01:28:02.400
and questioning the actual shape of the Earth,

01:28:02.580 --> 01:28:04.440
that's going back 10 years now.

01:28:06.180 --> 01:28:10.520
And that is a massive rabbit hole unto itself

01:28:10.520 --> 01:28:13.180
that touches on every other rabbit hole.

01:28:13.500 --> 01:28:16.400
I call it the skeleton key of conspiracy theories

01:28:16.400 --> 01:28:19.300
because you don't have to know what shape it is

01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:20.560
to know what shape it isn't.

01:28:21.160 --> 01:28:24.600
And the deeper you go into that,

01:28:24.800 --> 01:28:28.920
the more it starts to put the pieces of the puzzle together

01:28:28.920 --> 01:28:32.180
and things that don't seem to be related suddenly are

01:28:32.750 --> 01:28:34.740
and it makes sense.

01:28:35.120 --> 01:28:38.360
It's like the tapestry starts to fill in.

01:28:39.100 --> 01:28:43.260
And then COVID with, you know, virology,

01:28:44.280 --> 01:28:48.320
I suspected things about the jabs and all that stuff,

01:28:48.400 --> 01:28:52.740
but I never really contemplated the idea

01:28:52.740 --> 01:28:55.540
that the entire ology was based on pseudoscience.

01:28:55.700 --> 01:28:58.420
And now it's pretty clear that that's the case,

01:28:58.500 --> 01:29:01.200
that all of the supposed seminal studies

01:29:01.200 --> 01:29:03.900
that were proving the existence of the pathogen

01:29:03.900 --> 01:29:05.860
are hopelessly flawed in their methodology

01:29:05.860 --> 01:29:07.600
and their conclusions.

01:29:08.660 --> 01:29:12.120
And there's a whole bunch of really amazing people

01:29:12.120 --> 01:29:14.480
that have exposed that thoroughly,

01:29:14.880 --> 01:29:16.380
but not that it's reached,

01:29:17.100 --> 01:29:19.500
well, they were the most heavily censored people

01:29:19.500 --> 01:29:21.900
through those COVID years.

01:29:22.100 --> 01:29:26.020
So it's not surprising that it hasn't reached the level

01:29:26.020 --> 01:29:30.020
of the zeitgeist when it comes to that understanding

01:29:30.760 --> 01:29:33.440
because that's absolutely one of the biggest lies there is.

01:29:34.000 --> 01:29:41.680
And it's the fear porn of keeping everyone worried

01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:45.020
about the next pathogen is a huge one.

01:29:45.300 --> 01:29:47.420
So yeah, those are the biggies.

01:29:47.620 --> 01:29:52.520
And then about eight years ago getting onto these topics

01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:57.360
of things like hidden history and ancient civilizations,

01:29:57.360 --> 01:30:01.160
not from an ancient aliens perspective or the Gaia network,

01:30:01.360 --> 01:30:02.860
but like looking into things

01:30:02.860 --> 01:30:06.580
like the former existence of tardary, star forts,

01:30:06.980 --> 01:30:11.360
mud floods, world's fairs, orphan trains, baby incubators.

01:30:12.480 --> 01:30:14.500
I mean, all kinds of wild stuff,

01:30:14.860 --> 01:30:18.020
the zeppelins that were everywhere, but are now not,

01:30:18.340 --> 01:30:22.760
that these are things that have a ton of evidence

01:30:22.760 --> 01:30:25.760
that each one of those things I just mentioned

01:30:25.760 --> 01:30:28.360
is a narrative destroyer in and of itself.

01:30:28.700 --> 01:30:30.460
And then when you really dig into them,

01:30:30.760 --> 01:30:32.940
instead of just hand wave dismissing them,

01:30:33.000 --> 01:30:34.760
you find that they all actually dovetail

01:30:34.760 --> 01:30:39.540
and they create this very cohesive tapestry

01:30:39.540 --> 01:30:42.760
of a past that's completely different

01:30:42.760 --> 01:30:43.920
from what we were taught.

01:30:45.380 --> 01:30:48.180
And that led me to start questioning

01:30:48.180 --> 01:30:51.020
the nature of our physical reality,

01:30:52.480 --> 01:30:56.020
because if they can lie to us about something as big

01:30:56.020 --> 01:30:59.780
as the earth itself and something like virology,

01:30:59.820 --> 01:31:01.820
then what else are they lying to us about?

01:31:02.040 --> 01:31:05.460
And so these other rabbit holes start to clue you in

01:31:05.460 --> 01:31:07.120
to what that what else is.

01:31:07.980 --> 01:31:14.120
And then that's what led to my investigations

01:31:14.120 --> 01:31:17.560
into geology because all of a sudden now

01:31:17.560 --> 01:31:19.680
we've got these possibilities of like, wow,

01:31:19.680 --> 01:31:24.460
maybe there were once titanic trees or titanic beings

01:31:25.140 --> 01:31:29.800
or the things that we were taught about how stone forms

01:31:29.800 --> 01:31:33.180
and comes about are maybe not necessarily accurate

01:31:33.180 --> 01:31:37.220
and petrification might not take millions of years

01:31:37.220 --> 01:31:39.400
like we were taught, but could actually happen

01:31:39.900 --> 01:31:41.400
in a very short amount of time.

01:31:41.600 --> 01:31:43.400
And is there any evidence for that?

01:31:43.960 --> 01:31:47.120
And it turns out that there's a ton of evidence

01:31:47.120 --> 01:31:49.540
that contradicts mainstream narratives

01:31:49.540 --> 01:31:50.620
when it comes to geology.

01:31:50.900 --> 01:31:54.680
So that's kind of become my forte is covering that stuff

01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:56.860
and my investigations into those things,

01:31:56.860 --> 01:32:00.420
which interestingly enough are not just theory tales,

01:32:00.440 --> 01:32:04.840
but they are extremely rooted in empiricism

01:32:05.440 --> 01:32:08.340
and my attempts to the best of my knowledge

01:32:08.340 --> 01:32:11.240
to follow the scientific method.

01:32:12.280 --> 01:32:14.960
And yeah, so that was a long answer,

01:32:14.960 --> 01:32:17.700
but I know it's good time.

01:32:17.780 --> 01:32:19.940
Yeah, I like that theory tales too, by the way.

01:32:20.120 --> 01:32:22.060
And this is Mike's channel

01:32:22.060 --> 01:32:23.920
if you want to go over and sub to him.

01:32:24.900 --> 01:32:26.640
And I was curious, like, is there any,

01:32:26.980 --> 01:32:31.500
are there any of the rabbit holes, theories, anything

01:32:31.910 --> 01:32:36.340
like within the considered within the truth or world

01:32:36.870 --> 01:32:39.440
that have become bunk to you

01:32:39.440 --> 01:32:42.700
over maybe particularly the last six months?

01:32:46.020 --> 01:32:46.660
Hmm.

01:32:50.100 --> 01:32:53.840
Well, pretty much anything that's dealing with like space

01:32:53.840 --> 01:32:55.920
or aliens or that kind of stuff,

01:32:56.260 --> 01:32:58.780
I have a high degree of skepticism

01:32:58.780 --> 01:33:01.560
towards anything that has to do with what's happening

01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:04.980
out there and the claims that are made by any agency,

01:33:05.420 --> 01:33:07.620
I don't have any trust in.

01:33:09.000 --> 01:33:13.600
Is there a big truth or contingent on the aliens side?

01:33:13.890 --> 01:33:16.140
And I'm just totally not seeing it.

01:33:16.780 --> 01:33:19.280
Well, I mean, when you look at, say,

01:33:19.320 --> 01:33:22.680
Flat Earthers versus ancient aliens,

01:33:24.090 --> 01:33:26.260
I mean, what is it, a hundred to one or something?

01:33:27.080 --> 01:33:29.740
You know, that's mainstream alternative.

01:33:30.360 --> 01:33:32.820
People like Graham Hancock are mainstream alternative.

01:33:33.240 --> 01:33:35.500
You know, they're getting millions in abuse,

01:33:36.230 --> 01:33:38.520
whereas the people who I consider the real truthers

01:33:38.520 --> 01:33:39.640
are lucky to get thousands.

01:33:40.160 --> 01:33:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

01:33:41.960 --> 01:33:43.760
And they're often shadow banned.

01:33:44.000 --> 01:33:45.960
Their channels aren't necessarily taken down,

01:33:46.040 --> 01:33:48.800
but you can just see that there's no organic growth.

01:33:49.080 --> 01:33:50.400
I mean, that's the case with my channel

01:33:50.400 --> 01:33:51.820
and has been for a long time now.

01:33:52.160 --> 01:33:55.320
I shot up to 20,000 in about 18 months

01:33:55.900 --> 01:33:58.360
and it's taken me five and a half years

01:33:58.360 --> 01:33:59.720
to get another 12,000.

01:34:00.420 --> 01:34:04.060
And YouTube does not show my material

01:34:04.060 --> 01:34:06.020
to any new people at all.

01:34:06.380 --> 01:34:10.740
I only reach about one tenth of my audience

01:34:11.340 --> 01:34:15.740
and I could compare the statistics from the first two years

01:34:15.740 --> 01:34:18.200
to what has happened over the last couple of years.

01:34:19.080 --> 01:34:22.000
And the content that I'm producing now

01:34:22.700 --> 01:34:23.920
is more comprehensive.

01:34:24.440 --> 01:34:25.780
It's far better organized.

01:34:26.140 --> 01:34:27.700
It's visually better appealing.

01:34:28.040 --> 01:34:30.260
I'm much better at delivering the information

01:34:30.260 --> 01:34:33.320
in a more concise way, more rapidly.

01:34:34.940 --> 01:34:38.440
So all of that should lead to a faster growth

01:34:38.440 --> 01:34:42.520
and it's like, I'll get a few subs

01:34:42.520 --> 01:34:44.980
and then YouTube will siphon off a few.

01:34:45.240 --> 01:34:50.620
So it's not that I'm looking to grow the channel

01:34:50.620 --> 01:34:51.560
or I want more subs,

01:34:51.700 --> 01:34:54.480
it's that I just want that information to reach new ears.

01:34:55.100 --> 01:34:57.760
I didn't wanna create like a cult of personality

01:34:57.760 --> 01:35:00.900
where I've got my groupies,

01:35:01.100 --> 01:35:03.060
the people who love everything I do.

01:35:03.340 --> 01:35:06.260
I mean, I have some incredible people

01:35:06.260 --> 01:35:07.800
who've been following my work for years

01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:10.000
that I'm very appreciative of

01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:16.220
and they've praised a lot of what I've done

01:35:16.220 --> 01:35:17.720
and I'm thankful for that

01:35:17.720 --> 01:35:19.920
because it motivates you

01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:23.060
because clearly finances are not a motivation.

01:35:24.500 --> 01:35:25.380
Yeah, that's the one.

01:35:25.660 --> 01:35:27.140
Is it? Yeah, do you wanna play that?

01:35:27.840 --> 01:35:29.640
Sure, go full screen with it.

01:35:29.880 --> 01:35:31.940
Okay, and are you hearing the sound just for that?

01:35:32.020 --> 01:35:32.120
Yeah.

01:35:32.420 --> 01:35:32.820
A few seconds?

01:35:33.100 --> 01:35:34.000
Okay, so I heard that.

01:35:34.280 --> 01:35:35.300
Okay, I'll blow that up here.

01:35:41.220 --> 01:35:42.420
All right.

01:35:46.140 --> 01:35:50.520
In February 1985, an 18-year-old Kirkland, Washington man

01:35:50.520 --> 01:35:52.940
pled guilty to four counts of computer trespass.

01:35:53.500 --> 01:35:56.060
The defendant was accused of gaining illegal access

01:35:56.500 --> 01:35:58.660
to four large Seattle area firms.

01:35:59.580 --> 01:36:01.240
Would you state your name, please?

01:36:03.860 --> 01:36:05.280
My name is Mike Wilkerson.

01:36:41.030 --> 01:36:42.830
The way it's set up is you dial in on one line

01:36:43.750 --> 01:36:45.130
and it calls you back on another

01:36:45.130 --> 01:36:47.730
so that you can't get supposed to be the ultimate security.

01:36:48.110 --> 01:36:50.150
What you do is you break into Cosmos

01:36:50.150 --> 01:36:52.370
and you find out all of the phone numbers

01:36:52.370 --> 01:36:53.330
that that company owns

01:36:53.830 --> 01:36:55.430
and you call until you find the two

01:36:55.430 --> 01:36:56.290
that are hooked up to data

01:36:56.750 --> 01:36:58.510
and then you get the callback modem

01:36:59.010 --> 01:37:00.670
and you set a call forwarding on that line

01:37:00.670 --> 01:37:02.090
so it call forwards to your phone number.

01:37:04.330 --> 01:37:05.470
That takes a lot of work,

01:37:05.610 --> 01:37:57.940
but for a real healer,

01:37:57.940 --> 01:38:01.180
you just don't think you're gonna get caught.

01:38:01.480 --> 01:38:04.460
You ask any hacker out there that hasn't been caught yet,

01:38:04.720 --> 01:38:06.280
if he thinks he's gonna get caught,

01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:07.400
he'll tell you now.

01:38:08.340 --> 01:38:10.060
And if they tell you yes,

01:38:10.720 --> 01:38:12.860
it's because somebody close to them

01:38:12.860 --> 01:38:14.020
just recently got busted

01:38:14.020 --> 01:38:16.920
and they have a feeling of being watched.

01:38:17.820 --> 01:38:20.620
Whether you're curious about the 80s hacking scene

01:38:20.620 --> 01:38:22.780
and some of its most infamous characters,

01:38:23.260 --> 01:38:25.540
or if you care to indulge in a bit of nostalgia

01:38:25.540 --> 01:38:27.500
for the early days of computing,

01:38:28.340 --> 01:38:30.440
or if you just simply like to kick back

01:38:30.440 --> 01:38:32.600
with a light-hearted coming-of-age tale,

01:38:33.360 --> 01:38:34.520
then this book is for you.

01:38:50.400 --> 01:38:50.920
Ta-da!

01:38:52.480 --> 01:38:53.680
Very nice video.

01:38:54.420 --> 01:38:54.860
Grandios.

01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:01.280
You've got hackers from Heaven,

01:39:01.440 --> 01:39:02.600
so there's a longer video here.

01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:04.620
I'll grab this link for people as well

01:39:04.620 --> 01:39:05.620
so they can watch this one.

01:39:05.980 --> 01:39:10.220
Oh yeah, that's that conversation I had

01:39:10.220 --> 01:39:11.020
with Gary McKinnon.

01:39:11.020 --> 01:39:12.240
That's an interesting conversation.

01:39:12.600 --> 01:39:15.460
We take up some other topics like Julian Assange,

01:39:16.440 --> 01:39:18.820
and yeah, that's a good one

01:39:18.820 --> 01:39:20.420
for people who are interested in hacking.

01:39:21.360 --> 01:39:23.480
Because we had never spoken before,

01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:26.280
and at the very beginning of the call,

01:39:26.440 --> 01:39:27.400
I was just like, you know,

01:39:27.520 --> 01:39:29.620
I've got an unusual story you haven't heard.

01:39:30.260 --> 01:39:31.700
Everyone knows your story,

01:39:31.900 --> 01:39:34.720
because it was plastered all over the papers for a decade.

01:39:36.500 --> 01:39:38.980
And I'll bet people would be interested in hearing this,

01:39:38.980 --> 01:39:41.260
so he was like, yeah, let's record it.

01:39:43.180 --> 01:39:44.900
But that footage,

01:39:45.400 --> 01:39:46.580
I didn't mention this,

01:39:46.680 --> 01:39:48.440
but the green footage of me,

01:39:50.080 --> 01:39:52.560
I was 19 at the time that was filmed,

01:39:52.960 --> 01:39:57.680
and that was part of my plea bargaining agreement

01:39:57.680 --> 01:40:02.220
was that I agreed to conduct an interview

01:40:02.220 --> 01:40:03.720
with the law enforcement,

01:40:04.480 --> 01:40:07.300
the heads of security from the companies I'd infiltrated,

01:40:07.300 --> 01:40:10.440
and there were, I think the FBI

01:40:10.440 --> 01:40:12.560
and the Secret Service were there as well.

01:40:12.940 --> 01:40:14.680
There were at least two of the letter agencies.

01:40:14.880 --> 01:40:16.700
So there was like 12 of us in this room,

01:40:17.020 --> 01:40:19.600
and they recorded me for like two hours.

01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:23.540
And I had never seen that footage,

01:40:23.740 --> 01:40:25.120
and I didn't know it still existed,

01:40:25.160 --> 01:40:26.680
but about five years ago,

01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:29.160
I reached out to the prosecuting attorney,

01:40:29.920 --> 01:40:33.080
and I hadn't had any contact with him in 35 years,

01:40:33.280 --> 01:40:35.560
and he was absolutely thrilled to hear from me,

01:40:35.560 --> 01:40:38.120
because he had always wondered what happened, you know?

01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:40.880
Because I didn't conduct any interviews,

01:40:41.060 --> 01:40:42.080
I never wrote a book,

01:40:42.260 --> 01:40:45.580
and I never showed up on the radar again.

01:40:46.100 --> 01:40:49.000
I wasn't in hiding, I just wasn't in tech, you know?

01:40:51.680 --> 01:40:55.700
And also the newspaper articles,

01:40:56.340 --> 01:41:01.220
when I was busted in 1985,

01:41:01.400 --> 01:41:02.600
went to jail in 1986,

01:41:03.780 --> 01:41:07.180
digitization of newspapers didn't begin until 1989.

01:41:07.580 --> 01:41:09.940
Everything was microfiche up until that point.

01:41:10.340 --> 01:41:11.460
So you could go to the library,

01:41:11.620 --> 01:41:12.520
and if you knew the date,

01:41:12.720 --> 01:41:14.580
you could find articles,

01:41:14.780 --> 01:41:16.380
but you had to know what you were looking for.

01:41:17.260 --> 01:41:19.300
And so like it doesn't,

01:41:19.760 --> 01:41:21.720
until I started trickling out information,

01:41:21.980 --> 01:41:24.560
it didn't even show up on Google searches.

01:41:24.780 --> 01:41:27.260
There was almost nothing on the internet about it,

01:41:27.460 --> 01:41:29.220
even though I was the first, you know,

01:41:29.340 --> 01:41:31.560
to go to jail for that crime.

01:41:34.920 --> 01:41:36.620
So I reached out to him,

01:41:37.640 --> 01:41:39.820
and he was just blown away.

01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:42.380
And so we ended up having these long email exchanges.

01:41:42.640 --> 01:41:43.620
He had Parkinson's,

01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:46.000
which had damaged his vocal box,

01:41:46.080 --> 01:41:49.140
so he wasn't able to do like a video call with me.

01:41:49.260 --> 01:41:52.440
But we started having these exchanges,

01:41:52.440 --> 01:41:54.380
and he said, hey, you remember that interview you did?

01:41:54.680 --> 01:41:56.000
I was like, yeah.

01:41:56.640 --> 01:41:59.180
There was a whole chapter in my book about it, you know?

01:41:59.180 --> 01:42:02.640
And he's like, I think I might still have that cassette.

01:42:03.280 --> 01:42:05.440
And so he went looking at his archives,

01:42:05.660 --> 01:42:06.940
and it was on beta.

01:42:07.340 --> 01:42:08.960
It was that long ago.

01:42:09.140 --> 01:42:10.140
It wasn't on DHS.

01:42:10.840 --> 01:42:14.820
And so he managed to digitize it,

01:42:15.100 --> 01:42:16.840
and most of it was corrupted,

01:42:16.860 --> 01:42:18.900
but he got about 15 minutes of it.

01:42:20.080 --> 01:42:22.940
And that green, it looks like it's a filter or something.

01:42:23.120 --> 01:42:25.740
That's just the way it came out from the damaged video.

01:42:25.740 --> 01:42:27.540
So it's just like perfect,

01:42:27.600 --> 01:42:30.220
because it's got that matrixy color and look to it.

01:42:30.740 --> 01:42:32.900
But I had never seen that footage,

01:42:33.220 --> 01:42:35.920
and he sent it to me 35 years later.

01:42:36.000 --> 01:42:36.880
He sends me a link,

01:42:36.960 --> 01:42:38.280
and I download the file,

01:42:38.420 --> 01:42:40.900
and I was like, I couldn't believe it.

01:42:41.700 --> 01:42:44.940
And that clip that I played there,

01:42:48.340 --> 01:42:50.980
they asked me a very tough question there.

01:42:51.100 --> 01:42:51.760
They're asking me,

01:42:51.760 --> 01:42:54.920
how would you bypass this particular form of security?

01:42:58.320 --> 01:43:00.180
And if you'd asked me that now,

01:43:00.240 --> 01:43:01.600
I wouldn't have had a clue, you know?

01:43:02.120 --> 01:43:05.580
But I just like, you know, I just laid it out there,

01:43:05.680 --> 01:43:06.980
and you hear the guy,

01:43:07.240 --> 01:43:10.300
it was either the Secret Service guy or the FBI guy,

01:43:11.440 --> 01:43:13.120
after I finished saying what I said,

01:43:13.240 --> 01:43:18.320
he chuckles because he realizes that what I said

01:43:19.060 --> 01:43:20.180
actually would have worked.

01:43:21.460 --> 01:43:24.720
Which is exactly why they had me in that room in the first place there.

01:43:24.980 --> 01:43:28.860
They wanted to use the whole thing for training purposes,

01:43:29.140 --> 01:43:30.460
for law enforcement.

01:43:31.480 --> 01:43:33.760
Yeah, so that was just a real boon,

01:43:34.020 --> 01:43:35.680
and he and I ended up being friends,

01:43:35.860 --> 01:43:38.740
which is funny because like I said,

01:43:38.820 --> 01:43:42.340
he's like the nemesis through the first two thirds of the book.

01:43:44.420 --> 01:43:45.340
Right, right.

01:43:46.460 --> 01:43:47.180
Oh, so fun.

01:43:47.560 --> 01:43:48.500
Yeah, I caught that chuckle.

01:43:48.500 --> 01:43:49.600
That was interesting.

01:43:51.160 --> 01:43:52.520
Let's see, I'd like to ask you

01:43:52.520 --> 01:43:55.180
at least a few more questions if you still have time.

01:43:55.860 --> 01:43:55.980
Sure.

01:43:56.180 --> 01:43:58.280
And there was one, I don't want to let this go,

01:43:58.360 --> 01:43:59.880
so maybe I will go right to it.

01:44:00.080 --> 01:44:03.500
The same lady's asking about your opinion on CBDCs

01:44:03.500 --> 01:44:04.940
and could they be hacked?

01:44:06.460 --> 01:44:07.680
Anything can be hacked.

01:44:09.240 --> 01:44:11.980
And the problem, I mean, this is the thing,

01:44:12.240 --> 01:44:14.500
there was a guy named Robert Steele,

01:44:14.560 --> 01:44:16.900
he passed away a few years back.

01:44:16.900 --> 01:44:19.340
He was a CIA agent,

01:44:19.500 --> 01:44:23.200
and he once described hackers as the minute men

01:44:23.200 --> 01:44:25.180
of the digital era, you know,

01:44:25.220 --> 01:44:27.860
like Paul Revere and his ride, you know,

01:44:27.960 --> 01:44:29.940
the red coats are coming, the red coats are coming.

01:44:30.460 --> 01:44:32.180
The minute men were the ones that could be ready

01:44:32.180 --> 01:44:34.600
in a minute to defend the country

01:44:34.600 --> 01:44:36.900
against some unexpected attack.

01:44:37.140 --> 01:44:37.500
Okay.

01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:43.240
And so he saw them as a beneficial force.

01:44:43.240 --> 01:44:47.280
And I think as we enter into this increasingly totalitarian

01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:51.440
digital era, it may be, you know, the,

01:44:51.460 --> 01:44:53.380
I don't know, the weaponized autists

01:44:53.800 --> 01:44:57.460
or the, you know, the true hackers,

01:44:57.800 --> 01:45:01.640
computer geniuses that save us in some way

01:45:01.640 --> 01:45:06.120
from this seemingly unavoidable conclusion

01:45:06.120 --> 01:45:08.720
that is, you know, rolling out.

01:45:09.020 --> 01:45:11.680
Like, we keep talking about waking people up

01:45:11.680 --> 01:45:14.540
and what's it going to take, you know,

01:45:14.660 --> 01:45:16.020
and we've just got to stand up,

01:45:16.280 --> 01:45:18.980
but, you know, the power structures that are in place

01:45:18.980 --> 01:45:22.440
are, you know, unfathomable.

01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:25.440
So how are the little guys with their sticks

01:45:25.440 --> 01:45:27.320
and, you know, pitchforks or whatever

01:45:27.320 --> 01:45:29.080
going to, you know, I mean,

01:45:29.420 --> 01:45:32.100
well, take a page from the Nepal playbook,

01:45:32.240 --> 01:45:35.140
obviously it can be done, right?

01:45:35.540 --> 01:45:37.620
But in a place like the U.S.

01:45:37.620 --> 01:45:39.760
where there's so much advanced weaponry

01:45:39.760 --> 01:45:41.140
and everything, it's not like, you know,

01:45:41.500 --> 01:45:44.000
overthrowing the government of a third world nation.

01:45:44.340 --> 01:45:46.440
Like, how is that going to happen?

01:45:46.600 --> 01:45:48.340
How does the revolution happen without

01:45:48.340 --> 01:45:50.460
just incredible amounts of bloodshed?

01:45:50.640 --> 01:45:53.920
Well, one truly genius hacker

01:45:53.920 --> 01:45:57.980
could have an incredible impact on a whole lot of things

01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:00.580
for positive or negative.

01:46:01.680 --> 01:46:06.440
But ultimately, I think that there could be

01:46:06.440 --> 01:46:09.940
positives that come about from people

01:46:09.940 --> 01:46:11.260
that have that kind of knowledge.

01:46:11.920 --> 01:46:14.520
That said, I would never, in a million years,

01:46:14.640 --> 01:46:16.360
be a hacker in today's world because

01:46:16.360 --> 01:46:18.440
it is so easy to get caught.

01:46:18.820 --> 01:46:21.080
And in acquiring the skills necessary

01:46:21.080 --> 01:46:23.680
to do whatever you would want to do,

01:46:24.180 --> 01:46:25.940
you're probably going to show up on their radar

01:46:26.800 --> 01:46:29.260
anyway because you're going to make mistakes

01:46:29.260 --> 01:46:32.460
along the way that are going to make them aware of you.

01:46:32.620 --> 01:46:35.760
So I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into hacking.

01:46:35.760 --> 01:46:39.200
White hat hacking, yes, because you can...

01:46:39.200 --> 01:46:40.660
Like, this is the thing.

01:46:40.760 --> 01:46:42.800
If I had known how things were going to go

01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:44.960
10 or 15 or 20 years later,

01:46:45.040 --> 01:46:46.500
I would have stuck with tech probably

01:46:46.500 --> 01:46:47.820
because I did like computers,

01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:50.340
but I didn't want to spend my life in front of one.

01:46:51.980 --> 01:46:54.220
But now they have bug bounties

01:46:55.860 --> 01:46:58.420
where it's like you're literally brought in

01:46:58.420 --> 01:47:02.480
as a white hat hacker trying to crack systems

01:47:02.480 --> 01:47:04.860
and if you find a major flaw,

01:47:04.860 --> 01:47:06.800
you get a lot of money for it.

01:47:07.380 --> 01:47:10.420
Like, I know the son of a woman I know,

01:47:12.420 --> 01:47:17.160
or Cammie Nodell, Bob Nodell's wife from Globusters.

01:47:17.780 --> 01:47:18.740
Her son is a hacker.

01:47:18.980 --> 01:47:21.560
He got busted for cracking Fortnite

01:47:21.560 --> 01:47:25.680
and giving away like new skins or something to people

01:47:25.680 --> 01:47:28.860
that was like in a coming update.

01:47:29.300 --> 01:47:30.700
So he got busted for that.

01:47:31.040 --> 01:47:34.320
She sent me an article that was in Forbes magazine

01:47:34.320 --> 01:47:35.400
about him, you know.

01:47:35.820 --> 01:47:38.600
Well, he was last year at...

01:47:38.600 --> 01:47:40.120
I can't remember what they call it,

01:47:40.140 --> 01:47:42.280
but it's basically like it's not DEF CON,

01:47:42.440 --> 01:47:44.960
but it's some big event where they're doing

01:47:44.960 --> 01:47:46.720
like white hat hacking.

01:47:47.080 --> 01:47:48.060
He took third place.

01:47:48.220 --> 01:47:50.120
He got like 75 grand in a weekend.

01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:53.260
You know, so that...

01:47:54.260 --> 01:47:55.760
There's a lot of money to be made

01:47:55.760 --> 01:47:58.180
for people who have incredibly deep knowledge

01:47:58.180 --> 01:47:59.480
about these things.

01:48:00.900 --> 01:48:01.500
So...

01:48:01.500 --> 01:48:02.800
But I...

01:48:03.480 --> 01:48:04.580
Yeah, I...

01:48:05.440 --> 01:48:07.340
I walked away from it, so...

01:48:07.340 --> 01:48:08.380
I hear you. I hear you.

01:48:08.700 --> 01:48:11.060
And so would you say the scale of hacking

01:48:11.060 --> 01:48:12.780
is exponentially

01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:17.100
accurate to like the scale of technology now?

01:48:18.400 --> 01:48:19.280
Did it...

01:48:19.280 --> 01:48:22.180
Yeah, I mean, any system has the ability

01:48:22.180 --> 01:48:24.300
to be, you know, tinkered with

01:48:24.300 --> 01:48:28.040
or hacked or, you know, thwarted.

01:48:28.800 --> 01:48:29.360
So...

01:48:30.260 --> 01:48:32.300
It's so much more complicated now

01:48:32.300 --> 01:48:33.700
because you have

01:48:33.700 --> 01:48:36.640
not just the complexity of computers today,

01:48:36.740 --> 01:48:38.060
but you have all the legacy

01:48:38.980 --> 01:48:40.500
computers from before,

01:48:40.640 --> 01:48:42.460
because there's still lots of old technology

01:48:42.460 --> 01:48:44.660
out there that's online that's running things,

01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:44.980
you know.

01:48:45.060 --> 01:48:48.200
So you have to have such a vast amount of knowledge

01:48:48.200 --> 01:48:49.960
and programming skills

01:48:49.960 --> 01:48:51.600
and there are all these different

01:48:52.420 --> 01:48:54.960
tools that are used by that community

01:48:54.960 --> 01:48:56.360
for, you know,

01:48:56.360 --> 01:48:58.720
hacking in different ways.

01:48:59.380 --> 01:49:00.360
And it's...

01:49:01.460 --> 01:49:02.140
It's a...

01:49:03.200 --> 01:49:04.840
The amount of knowledge you need

01:49:04.840 --> 01:49:06.040
to be able to do it

01:49:06.040 --> 01:49:08.060
and not get caught if you're doing

01:49:08.060 --> 01:49:09.120
illegal things is

01:49:10.380 --> 01:49:11.500
not even...

01:49:11.500 --> 01:49:14.800
It's not even something to consider really.

01:49:14.920 --> 01:49:15.180
I think

01:49:16.020 --> 01:49:18.460
the game is lost before you've begun

01:49:18.460 --> 01:49:20.600
if you take that route.

01:49:21.500 --> 01:49:22.400
Right, right.

01:49:23.120 --> 01:49:24.780
And so would you say there's a lot

01:49:24.780 --> 01:49:26.160
more people doing it

01:49:26.160 --> 01:49:28.120
or much fewer?

01:49:29.040 --> 01:49:30.620
Oh, I think that... Well, just in general

01:49:30.620 --> 01:49:32.060
there's so many more people using

01:49:32.680 --> 01:49:34.480
technology in so many different ways now

01:49:34.480 --> 01:49:35.240
than back then.

01:49:35.700 --> 01:49:38.320
And there's a lot more white hat

01:49:38.320 --> 01:49:40.900
hackers. And then you got the gray hats

01:49:40.900 --> 01:49:42.540
and, you know, the black hats.

01:49:43.320 --> 01:49:43.840
But

01:49:44.440 --> 01:49:46.840
like when it comes to DEF CON

01:49:46.840 --> 01:49:48.600
just to give you some numbers...

01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:48.720
Oh, right.

01:49:50.640 --> 01:49:52.640
That's like 75,000

01:49:52.640 --> 01:49:53.060
people

01:49:53.700 --> 01:49:56.120
in Las Vegas every year

01:49:56.120 --> 01:49:58.100
for a hacking convention.

01:49:58.400 --> 01:49:59.860
Oh, I hope you get a spot.

01:50:00.380 --> 01:50:02.100
And the funny thing about that

01:50:02.100 --> 01:50:04.340
those conventions is they actually had

01:50:04.340 --> 01:50:06.060
their origin in the

01:50:06.060 --> 01:50:07.740
meetups that I was having with

01:50:07.740 --> 01:50:10.400
hackers on the east coast.

01:50:10.700 --> 01:50:12.100
They were called hack cons

01:50:12.640 --> 01:50:13.900
hacking conventions.

01:50:14.260 --> 01:50:15.900
They weren't conventions at all.

01:50:15.940 --> 01:50:17.760
It was just a bunch of guys getting together

01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:19.340
in an apartment or a house

01:50:19.340 --> 01:50:20.820
and hanging out

01:50:20.820 --> 01:50:22.840
and then going out on the town

01:50:22.840 --> 01:50:23.620
for hijinks.

01:50:24.420 --> 01:50:26.820
I went once to

01:50:27.110 --> 01:50:28.180
Margate, New Jersey

01:50:28.180 --> 01:50:30.620
and we were being

01:50:31.340 --> 01:50:32.340
rambunctious on

01:50:32.340 --> 01:50:35.060
the Atlantic City Boardwalk

01:50:35.060 --> 01:50:37.300
and trying to get into casinos

01:50:37.300 --> 01:50:39.180
and just doing silly stuff.

01:50:39.820 --> 01:50:40.920
And so

01:50:40.920 --> 01:50:42.880
those were the actual

01:50:43.980 --> 01:50:45.280
seeds that

01:50:45.280 --> 01:50:46.340
became DEF CON.

01:50:46.340 --> 01:50:47.720
Those hack cons.

01:50:48.060 --> 01:50:50.220
So I would

01:50:50.220 --> 01:50:52.120
think if any of the people

01:50:52.120 --> 01:50:54.060
in charge of the event read my book

01:50:54.060 --> 01:50:56.180
they'll want me as a speaker there.

01:50:56.320 --> 01:50:58.040
So I have to wait

01:50:58.040 --> 01:50:59.660
until January to apply, but

01:50:59.660 --> 01:51:01.420
I was too late last year.

01:51:01.920 --> 01:51:02.960
Okay, okay.

01:51:04.320 --> 01:51:06.080
That's really my target audience

01:51:06.080 --> 01:51:07.500
like the Truth or Community

01:51:07.500 --> 01:51:08.560
my own channel.

01:51:08.920 --> 01:51:10.660
I've done several interviews now

01:51:10.660 --> 01:51:12.360
talking about this stuff

01:51:12.360 --> 01:51:14.360
and it hasn't necessarily resulted

01:51:14.360 --> 01:51:15.440
in book sales.

01:51:16.620 --> 01:51:17.880
It doesn't sound

01:51:17.880 --> 01:51:20.000
well, I mean I've sold some

01:51:20.000 --> 01:51:22.240
but if I were to

01:51:22.240 --> 01:51:24.260
reach that kind of group

01:51:24.260 --> 01:51:26.280
I'm sure it would start

01:51:26.280 --> 01:51:28.220
to take off more because that's really the demographic

01:51:28.220 --> 01:51:30.340
of people who would be most

01:51:30.340 --> 01:51:32.400
interested in this. But it's not a tech

01:51:32.400 --> 01:51:33.980
book for people who are like

01:51:33.980 --> 01:51:35.700
it said in the thing for

01:51:36.280 --> 01:51:37.940
technophiles and technophobes alike.

01:51:39.040 --> 01:51:40.260
It's not at some

01:51:40.260 --> 01:51:42.340
high level with the tech that people

01:51:42.340 --> 01:51:44.080
are just going to like eyes glaze over

01:51:44.080 --> 01:51:46.320
and tune out. No, I was really pleased

01:51:46.320 --> 01:51:48.120
with that. It's extremely approachable

01:51:48.120 --> 01:51:49.720
and written in a kind of like

01:51:49.720 --> 01:51:51.520
you're having a conversation with

01:51:51.520 --> 01:51:54.100
the narrator so yeah

01:51:54.100 --> 01:51:55.180
I really like it.

01:51:56.500 --> 01:51:58.180
There was a thing

01:51:58.180 --> 01:52:00.420
that I heard Dan Brown

01:52:00.420 --> 01:52:02.080
was being interviewed one time

01:52:02.080 --> 01:52:04.280
and they were asking like

01:52:04.280 --> 01:52:06.300
how do you do this? You know he's written so many best

01:52:06.300 --> 01:52:08.040
sellers and they're just incredible page

01:52:08.040 --> 01:52:09.920
turns. I read four or five

01:52:09.920 --> 01:52:11.180
of his books and it's like

01:52:11.180 --> 01:52:13.980
you can practically read the book in a single

01:52:13.980 --> 01:52:15.500
sitting you know because they're

01:52:16.020 --> 01:52:17.380
they're it's not

01:52:18.100 --> 01:52:19.940
some high level pros but

01:52:19.940 --> 01:52:22.160
you know it's engaging and it makes

01:52:22.160 --> 01:52:24.060
you want to know what's going to happen next in the

01:52:24.060 --> 01:52:26.120
story. And so they were asking

01:52:26.120 --> 01:52:28.220
him how do you do that? And he said

01:52:28.960 --> 01:52:30.140
it's very simple

01:52:30.140 --> 01:52:31.220
I sit down

01:52:32.040 --> 01:52:33.820
to write and when I do

01:52:33.820 --> 01:52:36.260
I envision that there's another person

01:52:36.260 --> 01:52:37.880
that's across the table from me

01:52:37.880 --> 01:52:39.860
and I'm going to tell them a story

01:52:39.860 --> 01:52:42.500
and I want that story to be so engaging

01:52:42.500 --> 01:52:44.340
that they don't want to get up from the

01:52:44.340 --> 01:52:46.520
table until they've heard it to the end

01:52:46.520 --> 01:52:48.340
and I thought that's a good

01:52:48.340 --> 01:52:50.220
way to do it you know because

01:52:50.220 --> 01:52:52.260
I'm not I'm not writing Shakespeare here

01:52:52.260 --> 01:52:54.480
so might as well make it engaging

01:52:54.480 --> 01:52:56.220
and fun so that was

01:52:56.220 --> 01:52:58.360
that was a good inspiration. Yeah if

01:52:58.360 --> 01:52:59.940
you can write like people talk then

01:52:59.940 --> 01:53:02.300
then you can easily engage them

01:53:02.300 --> 01:53:04.380
and you're not trying to be over

01:53:04.380 --> 01:53:06.780
their head and sound so smart

01:53:06.780 --> 01:53:08.540
so they can think you're so great

01:53:08.540 --> 01:53:10.460
that's that's really not how to

01:53:10.460 --> 01:53:11.020
reach people

01:53:12.140 --> 01:53:14.360
at all yeah yeah

01:53:14.360 --> 01:53:15.600
that's beautiful

01:53:16.300 --> 01:53:17.880
so I'm curious

01:53:18.220 --> 01:53:20.280
you talked about the catharsis of

01:53:20.280 --> 01:53:22.000
writing the book if these are maybe

01:53:22.000 --> 01:53:24.300
you know what I want to make one one comment

01:53:24.300 --> 01:53:25.300
quickly just about

01:53:27.020 --> 01:53:28.600
you're saying how

01:53:28.600 --> 01:53:29.120
just

01:53:30.300 --> 01:53:31.760
backtracking a little bit that

01:53:31.760 --> 01:53:33.740
the hackers might end up

01:53:33.740 --> 01:53:35.540
being the

01:53:35.540 --> 01:53:37.060
you didn't use the word heroes

01:53:37.640 --> 01:53:39.340
it's a better word not saviors

01:53:39.340 --> 01:53:41.720
but yeah they might be showing up for us

01:53:41.720 --> 01:53:42.880
and in some poignant moments

01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:45.760
and it reminds me of the movie I believe it was

01:53:45.760 --> 01:53:47.220
Endgame one of the Avengers

01:53:47.710 --> 01:53:49.900
I didn't really see much of any of all

01:53:49.900 --> 01:53:51.580
of that but for some reason I saw that movie

01:53:51.580 --> 01:53:53.240
and and do you remember

01:53:53.240 --> 01:53:55.340
if I'm correct there was the character

01:53:55.340 --> 01:53:57.340
I can't remember is it brute

01:53:57.340 --> 01:53:59.300
or like grotes or

01:53:59.300 --> 01:54:00.380
something like that

01:54:00.380 --> 01:54:02.340
Groot thank you

01:54:02.340 --> 01:54:03.440
Tree guy

01:54:05.100 --> 01:54:07.340
and then so the whole time along

01:54:07.340 --> 01:54:09.020
he's got parents that are going like

01:54:09.020 --> 01:54:10.880
get off that phone get off that game

01:54:10.880 --> 01:54:13.400
always kind of writing him and he's got

01:54:13.400 --> 01:54:14.720
his head in the technology

01:54:14.720 --> 01:54:17.320
and then he is a saver of the

01:54:17.320 --> 01:54:18.860
day at the end he comes

01:54:18.860 --> 01:54:20.480
to life and uses his skills

01:54:20.480 --> 01:54:23.060
and assists

01:54:23.060 --> 01:54:24.660
in the journey and nature

01:54:25.180 --> 01:54:26.740
wins out over technology

01:54:26.740 --> 01:54:28.600
oh interesting

01:54:28.600 --> 01:54:29.960
yeah the symbolism

01:54:29.960 --> 01:54:32.740
of his character exactly or his superpower

01:54:32.740 --> 01:54:33.900
yeah

01:54:33.900 --> 01:54:36.440
yeah yeah really fun

01:54:36.440 --> 01:54:38.460
yeah so that's sort of

01:54:38.460 --> 01:54:40.740
baked into the story

01:54:40.740 --> 01:54:41.520
a little bit there

01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:43.780
well the hackers from heaven

01:54:44.560 --> 01:54:46.560
title for that interview

01:54:46.560 --> 01:54:48.000
that you posted the link to

01:54:48.560 --> 01:54:49.760
that comes from

01:54:51.460 --> 01:54:52.680
the judge

01:54:52.680 --> 01:54:54.260
was contacted by a man

01:54:54.260 --> 01:54:56.100
who was the founder

01:54:56.100 --> 01:54:57.880
of the national coalition for

01:54:57.880 --> 01:54:58.900
children's justice

01:54:58.900 --> 01:55:01.540
and he saw me on television

01:55:01.540 --> 01:55:03.560
after my arraignment and

01:55:03.560 --> 01:55:05.320
he got the idea

01:55:05.320 --> 01:55:07.140
that wow maybe

01:55:07.140 --> 01:55:08.780
maybe we could

01:55:08.780 --> 01:55:11.420
utilize his hacking skills

01:55:12.040 --> 01:55:13.480
because he had this idea

01:55:13.480 --> 01:55:16.020
of creating a network for tracking

01:55:16.020 --> 01:55:17.820
missing children because there was

01:55:17.820 --> 01:55:19.120
no national network

01:55:19.860 --> 01:55:22.040
and if children were taken

01:55:22.040 --> 01:55:23.960
across state lines there was

01:55:23.960 --> 01:55:25.920
no follow up because there wasn't

01:55:25.920 --> 01:55:26.940
interstate cooperation

01:55:26.940 --> 01:55:30.020
and the people who were abducting

01:55:30.020 --> 01:55:31.620
children knew this

01:55:31.620 --> 01:55:33.520
and so they just like

01:55:34.120 --> 01:55:35.960
grabbed kids close to the border

01:55:35.960 --> 01:55:37.780
and they were gone

01:55:37.780 --> 01:55:39.500
and then

01:55:40.020 --> 01:55:42.020
the extent of what the government seemed to be

01:55:42.020 --> 01:55:44.240
trying to do to solve the problem

01:55:44.240 --> 01:55:46.460
which is still huge to this day

01:55:46.460 --> 01:55:47.800
I mean if you do

01:55:47.800 --> 01:55:50.040
a google search for how many kids go

01:55:50.040 --> 01:55:52.000
missing just in the united states alone

01:55:52.580 --> 01:55:53.140
it's

01:55:53.140 --> 01:55:54.440
mind boggling

01:55:55.700 --> 01:55:56.260
and

01:55:58.760 --> 01:55:59.880
they were

01:56:00.840 --> 01:56:02.060
the extent of what

01:56:02.060 --> 01:56:04.540
they were doing was basically putting pictures on milk cartons

01:56:04.540 --> 01:56:05.700
which was really just a

01:56:05.700 --> 01:56:07.900
trauma based mind control thing

01:56:07.900 --> 01:56:10.180
in my opinion where kids are starting their breakfast

01:56:10.180 --> 01:56:11.780
with like oh there's another child

01:56:11.780 --> 01:56:12.480
that went missing

01:56:12.480 --> 01:56:14.820
and so

01:56:16.380 --> 01:56:18.700
I don't think those milk cartons

01:56:19.940 --> 01:56:21.320
saved a whole lot of kids

01:56:21.320 --> 01:56:22.420
but that was the idea

01:56:22.420 --> 01:56:23.600
good point

01:56:23.600 --> 01:56:26.400
but the thing was

01:56:26.400 --> 01:56:26.740
that

01:56:27.880 --> 01:56:30.300
he didn't have the funds to

01:56:30.300 --> 01:56:31.860
hire some corporation

01:56:31.860 --> 01:56:33.780
and so he got the idea that maybe

01:56:34.600 --> 01:56:36.700
kids who'd run a muck of the law

01:56:36.700 --> 01:56:38.540
that were generally

01:56:38.540 --> 01:56:39.620
good but

01:56:40.280 --> 01:56:41.900
made some bad choices

01:56:42.490 --> 01:56:44.200
might be utilized

01:56:44.200 --> 01:56:44.820
for

01:56:44.820 --> 01:56:46.820
for good

01:56:46.820 --> 01:56:47.880
instead of bad

01:56:47.880 --> 01:56:49.840
so he got this idea

01:56:49.840 --> 01:56:52.220
he called it the hackers from heaven

01:56:52.720 --> 01:56:54.740
program that's where that title came

01:56:54.740 --> 01:56:55.160
from

01:56:55.160 --> 01:56:56.020
so

01:56:57.660 --> 01:57:00.780
I met with a couple of my hacking friends

01:57:00.780 --> 01:57:02.000
and we actually went to Vermont

01:57:02.000 --> 01:57:03.980
and met with him and his family

01:57:03.980 --> 01:57:06.720
and toured the foundation

01:57:06.720 --> 01:57:08.540
and stayed in their log cabin

01:57:08.540 --> 01:57:10.420
it was a pretty amazing

01:57:10.420 --> 01:57:11.360
experience

01:57:11.360 --> 01:57:13.340
and so that

01:57:13.340 --> 01:57:15.180
led to some inroads

01:57:15.180 --> 01:57:17.380
but it didn't ultimately lead to

01:57:17.380 --> 01:57:19.200
some nationwide network

01:57:19.200 --> 01:57:21.040
that he had originally dreamed of

01:57:21.980 --> 01:57:23.420
and he knew

01:57:23.420 --> 01:57:25.100
early on that the reason for that

01:57:25.100 --> 01:57:26.500
is still the reason

01:57:27.220 --> 01:57:29.040
as we know from Epstein

01:57:29.040 --> 01:57:31.020
and all the

01:57:31.020 --> 01:57:33.380
all the revelations in the last 20 years

01:57:33.380 --> 01:57:34.500
is that

01:57:35.280 --> 01:57:37.700
it goes up to the highest corridors of power

01:57:37.700 --> 01:57:38.880
so it's

01:57:38.880 --> 01:57:40.660
that's their currency

01:57:40.660 --> 01:57:41.460
humans

01:57:42.960 --> 01:57:43.560
so

01:57:44.660 --> 01:57:45.860
I think

01:57:47.520 --> 01:57:48.120
ultimately

01:57:48.120 --> 01:57:51.060
it may be something like Ready Player One

01:57:51.060 --> 01:57:52.400
or Endgame

01:57:52.400 --> 01:57:53.000
where

01:57:54.060 --> 01:57:56.320
people with these kinds of skills

01:57:56.880 --> 01:57:58.300
they come out of the woodwork

01:57:58.300 --> 01:57:59.640
and they stop

01:57:59.640 --> 01:58:01.960
really really bad things from happening

01:58:01.960 --> 01:58:03.980
it's a dream I have a dream

01:58:03.980 --> 01:58:06.760
I also have a dream that's the king hero dream

01:58:06.760 --> 01:58:08.740
if there's some kind of beacon

01:58:08.740 --> 01:58:10.500
to pull them out

01:58:10.500 --> 01:58:11.960
from could be

01:58:11.960 --> 01:58:14.600
one of the shadows of the Alchemist archetype

01:58:14.600 --> 01:58:16.840
is hiding the superpowers

01:58:16.840 --> 01:58:19.020
using the superpowers to hide the superpowers

01:58:19.340 --> 01:58:21.660
and it's like calling all kings

01:58:22.940 --> 01:58:24.540
well it's interesting

01:58:24.540 --> 01:58:26.380
if you think about Lord of the Rings

01:58:27.360 --> 01:58:28.640
you've got this

01:58:28.640 --> 01:58:30.520
kind of technological takeover

01:58:30.520 --> 01:58:32.260
Sauron and Saurumon

01:58:32.260 --> 01:58:34.940
are basically destroying the realm

01:58:34.940 --> 01:58:36.580
in order to create

01:58:38.620 --> 01:58:41.080
this machine that can't be beaten

01:58:41.080 --> 01:58:42.920
to enslave all of

01:58:42.920 --> 01:58:44.840
humanity and all the species

01:58:44.840 --> 01:58:47.060
really and if you think

01:58:47.060 --> 01:58:48.840
about the people running the show

01:58:48.840 --> 01:58:50.760
that's kind of who they are

01:58:50.760 --> 01:58:53.300
I see them as dark wizards

01:58:53.300 --> 01:58:53.800
that

01:58:53.800 --> 01:58:57.560
have convinced humanity that magic isn't real

01:58:57.560 --> 01:58:59.520
and so that renders them muggles

01:58:59.520 --> 01:59:01.320
because they no longer believe in magic

01:59:01.320 --> 01:59:02.940
and they don't have any idea

01:59:02.940 --> 01:59:04.740
how much power they have

01:59:04.740 --> 01:59:06.620
inside of them and that they've got

01:59:06.620 --> 01:59:09.080
that spark of the creator within them

01:59:09.080 --> 01:59:10.760
and that's what they're doing

01:59:10.760 --> 01:59:12.140
their best to try and suppress

01:59:12.140 --> 01:59:13.400
in all of us

01:59:14.200 --> 01:59:15.160
and so

01:59:15.820 --> 01:59:17.120
I think it's interesting

01:59:18.060 --> 01:59:19.880
there must be white wizards

01:59:19.880 --> 01:59:20.620
there must be demons

01:59:21.200 --> 01:59:22.540
and there must be angels

01:59:22.540 --> 01:59:26.100
but why don't we hear from them

01:59:26.100 --> 01:59:27.320
why don't we see them

01:59:28.320 --> 01:59:29.580
and I think it's kind of like

01:59:29.580 --> 01:59:31.320
the prime directive in Star Trek

01:59:31.320 --> 01:59:33.460
where they're following the rules

01:59:33.460 --> 01:59:35.740
which are the rules of engagement

01:59:35.740 --> 01:59:37.200
which is that you don't interfere

01:59:37.200 --> 01:59:38.700
in a way that would affect

01:59:38.700 --> 01:59:41.880
the natural evolution and growth of the individual

01:59:41.880 --> 01:59:43.340
but maybe you

01:59:43.340 --> 01:59:44.720
taps on the shoulder

01:59:44.720 --> 01:59:46.480
or little synchronicities

01:59:46.480 --> 01:59:48.520
or save their life

01:59:48.520 --> 01:59:50.620
in some miraculous way

01:59:51.780 --> 01:59:52.440
but

01:59:53.390 --> 01:59:54.880
ultimately they're not there going

01:59:54.880 --> 01:59:57.060
hey here we are, we're the good guys

01:59:57.060 --> 01:59:58.500
come fight with us

01:59:59.060 --> 02:00:00.940
they're behind the scenes

02:00:00.940 --> 02:00:03.020
doing something, so the demons are out

02:00:03.020 --> 02:00:04.820
in the open, they're showing their cards

02:00:04.820 --> 02:00:06.660
and Satan worship

02:00:06.660 --> 02:00:08.980
is very alive and well

02:00:08.980 --> 02:00:11.220
and is front page

02:00:11.220 --> 02:00:13.200
and center when it comes to media

02:00:13.200 --> 02:00:14.160
so

02:00:14.940 --> 02:00:16.720
we know that the evil forces

02:00:16.720 --> 02:00:18.680
exist, we're the good ones

02:00:18.680 --> 02:00:21.020
and I think it's interesting

02:00:21.020 --> 02:00:22.360
why I brought up Lord of the Rings

02:00:22.360 --> 02:00:24.380
is because you've got Gandalf

02:00:24.380 --> 02:00:26.920
but then there's another wizard whose name I forgot

02:00:26.920 --> 02:00:28.740
and he's just like this goofy little

02:00:28.740 --> 02:00:30.680
troll guy that's out in the forest

02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:32.360
friends with all the animals

02:00:32.360 --> 02:00:34.560
and he's one of the most

02:00:34.560 --> 02:00:35.840
powerful wizards of all

02:00:36.160 --> 02:00:38.140
and I think that may be kind of what's happening

02:00:38.140 --> 02:00:40.020
is that there are people who are maintaining

02:00:40.020 --> 02:00:41.320
the balance and keeping

02:00:42.060 --> 02:00:43.320
the spark alive

02:00:43.320 --> 02:00:45.580
that are

02:00:45.580 --> 02:00:48.300
they might be in a hut in the rainforest somewhere

02:00:48.300 --> 02:00:50.360
but they're this incredibly powerful being

02:00:51.840 --> 02:00:52.360
and

02:00:52.360 --> 02:00:54.080
ultimately maybe we all have

02:00:54.080 --> 02:00:55.500
the potential

02:00:55.500 --> 02:00:58.420
to become like that if we tap in

02:00:58.420 --> 02:00:59.040
and

02:00:59.040 --> 02:01:01.280
apply ourselves to

02:01:01.280 --> 02:01:02.660
learning more

02:01:04.140 --> 02:01:05.780
nice and then the collective

02:01:06.280 --> 02:01:08.060
my dream is that if there's a

02:01:08.060 --> 02:01:10.080
critical mass number of people

02:01:10.080 --> 02:01:12.160
who just go into

02:01:12.160 --> 02:01:12.840
their lane

02:01:12.840 --> 02:01:15.720
and slave to purpose

02:01:15.720 --> 02:01:17.520
don't slave to a system anymore

02:01:17.520 --> 02:01:20.060
slave to your purpose, slave to the divine

02:01:20.060 --> 02:01:21.300
do that work

02:01:21.300 --> 02:01:23.120
when you're called do the work

02:01:23.120 --> 02:01:24.460
whatever it is

02:01:24.460 --> 02:01:27.080
and if enough of us were doing that

02:01:27.080 --> 02:01:28.200
it doesn't have to be everybody

02:01:28.200 --> 02:01:30.720
then I think that will polarize

02:01:30.720 --> 02:01:32.680
and you know greater

02:01:32.680 --> 02:01:35.120
probably greater divide but we've already

02:01:35.120 --> 02:01:36.980
seen that there's no turning back

02:01:36.980 --> 02:01:37.760
from there

02:01:39.220 --> 02:01:41.000
and then yeah I mean

02:01:41.000 --> 02:01:43.860
to me that's the definition of uncontrollable

02:01:44.620 --> 02:01:45.220
right

02:01:45.220 --> 02:01:46.680
that you have a higher

02:01:47.300 --> 02:01:48.840
yeah and this is where

02:01:48.840 --> 02:01:50.660
finding the others is so crucial

02:01:50.660 --> 02:01:52.180
because so many people who start to

02:01:52.180 --> 02:01:53.900
awaken to things are isolated

02:01:53.900 --> 02:01:56.420
and we talked before

02:01:56.420 --> 02:01:58.740
about losing family members

02:01:58.740 --> 02:02:00.500
you know are not losing but losing

02:02:00.500 --> 02:02:02.320
relationships with family members

02:02:02.320 --> 02:02:04.240
because we have beliefs that

02:02:04.240 --> 02:02:06.560
challenge them in a way that triggers

02:02:06.560 --> 02:02:08.520
cognitive dissonance and instead

02:02:08.520 --> 02:02:10.200
of having that intellectual maturity

02:02:10.200 --> 02:02:12.160
if this person believes different from I do

02:02:12.490 --> 02:02:14.640
maybe they have a different religion than I have

02:02:14.640 --> 02:02:16.620
whatever but back when I was young

02:02:16.620 --> 02:02:18.440
it was a hallmark

02:02:18.440 --> 02:02:20.620
of a mature intellect that you could

02:02:20.620 --> 02:02:22.500
actually maintain friendships

02:02:22.500 --> 02:02:24.620
or relationships with people who didn't

02:02:24.620 --> 02:02:26.680
believe the same as you and that has

02:02:26.680 --> 02:02:28.380
been drummed out of people to the point

02:02:28.380 --> 02:02:30.520
where they're constantly trying to polarize

02:02:30.520 --> 02:02:32.500
us and get us to pick sides

02:02:32.500 --> 02:02:34.560
and so people have lost

02:02:34.560 --> 02:02:36.760
that awareness that oh wait a minute

02:02:36.760 --> 02:02:38.520
it's okay for somebody to believe

02:02:38.520 --> 02:02:40.340
something different you know but

02:02:40.340 --> 02:02:42.360
but when you're isolated and

02:02:42.360 --> 02:02:44.680
you can't really speak to your families

02:02:44.680 --> 02:02:46.240
and family members and

02:02:46.240 --> 02:02:48.420
friends because the ideas

02:02:48.420 --> 02:02:49.960
are so radical and they will

02:02:49.960 --> 02:02:52.420
alienate you that's when you got

02:02:52.420 --> 02:02:54.440
to go find the others and that's what I was

02:02:54.440 --> 02:02:56.560
doing as a hacker like I was getting abused

02:02:56.560 --> 02:02:58.140
in school for

02:02:58.140 --> 02:03:00.260
you know for years and

02:03:00.260 --> 02:03:02.080
it was that was my outlet

02:03:02.080 --> 02:03:04.260
and I found like-minded

02:03:04.260 --> 02:03:06.400
people who accepted me for who I

02:03:06.400 --> 02:03:08.240
was and actually appreciated

02:03:08.240 --> 02:03:10.240
me and considered me a valued member

02:03:10.240 --> 02:03:12.300
of the group well there

02:03:12.300 --> 02:03:14.140
are groups out there that are like that

02:03:14.140 --> 02:03:16.280
and you can find them especially

02:03:16.280 --> 02:03:17.780
now with the internet and

02:03:17.780 --> 02:03:20.080
you know so for earth shape

02:03:20.080 --> 02:03:22.020
I would recommend Dave Weiss's app

02:03:22.020 --> 02:03:23.780
you know and there's

02:03:23.780 --> 02:03:26.240
all kinds of meetups that are happening

02:03:27.360 --> 02:03:28.780
there's the way forward

02:03:28.780 --> 02:03:29.820
network with

02:03:29.820 --> 02:03:32.380
with you know Alex Zek and that whole

02:03:32.380 --> 02:03:34.200
crew they're connecting

02:03:34.200 --> 02:03:35.800
people I bought

02:03:35.800 --> 02:03:38.200
the app and there was one person

02:03:38.200 --> 02:03:40.100
in all of Spain I was like

02:03:40.100 --> 02:03:42.160
you know it's like

02:03:42.160 --> 02:03:44.460
one in the whole country you know

02:03:44.460 --> 02:03:45.720
yeah I was wondering

02:03:45.720 --> 02:03:48.240
guess what that one person

02:03:48.240 --> 02:03:50.240
lived 20 minutes away

02:03:50.240 --> 02:03:52.300
from me amazing and

02:03:52.300 --> 02:03:53.160
is now a friend

02:03:54.100 --> 02:03:56.280
okay yeah like that's

02:03:56.280 --> 02:03:58.540
how it happens synchronicity kicks in

02:03:58.540 --> 02:04:00.240
two of my like

02:04:00.240 --> 02:04:02.360
one of my best friends now is a guy

02:04:02.360 --> 02:04:03.920
who recognized me from my

02:04:03.920 --> 02:04:06.000
YouTube channel on the street

02:04:06.000 --> 02:04:08.100
in a town far from here

02:04:08.100 --> 02:04:09.920
he turned out to be a big

02:04:09.920 --> 02:04:11.600
fan of Alex Michaels the

02:04:11.600 --> 02:04:13.900
conspiracy music guru and he's

02:04:13.900 --> 02:04:15.860
an incredible musician and now

02:04:15.860 --> 02:04:17.500
they're jamming together and making songs

02:04:17.500 --> 02:04:19.060
all the time and it's only because

02:04:19.060 --> 02:04:21.820
he saw me and recognized me from my channel

02:04:21.820 --> 02:04:23.780
on the street so you know

02:04:23.780 --> 02:04:25.880
you got to take the time put yourself out there

02:04:25.880 --> 02:04:27.920
take risks but find

02:04:27.920 --> 02:04:29.780
the others and find people you can talk to

02:04:29.780 --> 02:04:31.740
without worrying all the time like

02:04:31.740 --> 02:04:33.460
what what are the consequences

02:04:34.040 --> 02:04:35.160
going to going to be

02:04:35.160 --> 02:04:37.220
you know and that's what I was doing back in the

02:04:37.220 --> 02:04:39.260
80s with with all these people in our party

02:04:39.260 --> 02:04:40.340
lines and stuff so

02:04:40.940 --> 02:04:42.980
so here we are four decades later

02:04:43.480 --> 02:04:44.280
nothing's changed

02:04:45.560 --> 02:04:46.440
wow yeah

02:04:46.940 --> 02:04:49.380
see that's the sign of secret purpose right there

02:04:49.380 --> 02:04:51.220
that you've got that thread

02:04:51.220 --> 02:04:53.100
you're on it and

02:04:54.800 --> 02:04:55.360
I think

02:04:55.360 --> 02:04:57.900
the last thing I wanted to talk about you're getting some good appreciation here

02:04:57.900 --> 02:04:59.180
hello to Paul on the X

02:04:59.180 --> 02:05:00.740
I appreciate the comment

02:05:00.740 --> 02:05:02.740
almost no one finds me on X

02:05:02.740 --> 02:05:04.600
so I appreciate you being

02:05:04.600 --> 02:05:06.700
out there and yet Rick said

02:05:06.700 --> 02:05:08.780
have wise, enjoyable, authentic

02:05:08.780 --> 02:05:10.540
guests especially Mike so

02:05:10.540 --> 02:05:12.380
let him know he's appreciated

02:05:12.380 --> 02:05:14.200
of course, thank you

02:05:14.200 --> 02:05:16.480
Hamcrete bearers here and quite like

02:05:16.480 --> 02:05:18.520
Tenberry you guys seem to come as a pair

02:05:18.520 --> 02:05:19.400
lots of bears

02:05:19.400 --> 02:05:22.380
yeah very good

02:05:22.380 --> 02:05:24.860
Big Bear has been talking about biogeology

02:05:24.860 --> 02:05:26.360
tell him to get me on

02:05:26.360 --> 02:05:27.720
oh yes

02:05:27.720 --> 02:05:29.540
in natural I was watching a bit of

02:05:29.540 --> 02:05:31.500
tofer talk about it

02:05:31.500 --> 02:05:33.380
yeah and then speaking

02:05:33.380 --> 02:05:35.460
of these two bears that I see

02:05:35.460 --> 02:05:38.040
also in have you come across Garrett Smith's

02:05:38.040 --> 02:05:38.260
work

02:05:39.700 --> 02:05:41.840
the name rings a bell but I can't

02:05:41.840 --> 02:05:42.240
place it

02:05:42.240 --> 02:05:45.180
maybe I could get with you

02:05:45.180 --> 02:05:47.320
not that I can't talk about it he's an

02:05:47.320 --> 02:05:49.140
ND and so

02:05:49.720 --> 02:05:51.360
you know how there's outliers

02:05:51.360 --> 02:05:52.980
a naturopathic doctor

02:05:54.280 --> 02:05:55.840
so there's outliers

02:05:55.840 --> 02:05:57.740
and then there's outliers

02:05:57.740 --> 02:05:59.180
among outliers

02:05:59.840 --> 02:06:01.680
and he's that

02:06:01.680 --> 02:06:03.200
and he

02:06:03.740 --> 02:06:05.880
turned me into it not that he did that

02:06:05.880 --> 02:06:08.380
just because I wanted to go deeper

02:06:08.380 --> 02:06:09.300
you know that

02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:11.860
I appreciate a lot of the

02:06:11.860 --> 02:06:13.380
knowledge in the

02:06:13.380 --> 02:06:15.500
natural health world

02:06:15.500 --> 02:06:17.560
I'm a cancer survivor

02:06:17.560 --> 02:06:19.680
I nearly died and

02:06:19.680 --> 02:06:21.660
tried hard for a natural cure

02:06:21.660 --> 02:06:23.600
I failed right I

02:06:23.600 --> 02:06:25.560
couldn't do it despite spending

02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:27.440
thousands of dollars working with the

02:06:27.440 --> 02:06:29.280
best ND in

02:06:29.280 --> 02:06:31.460
Canada moving across the country to do that

02:06:31.460 --> 02:06:33.200
now I know why

02:06:33.200 --> 02:06:35.700
that was a fail now I know

02:06:35.700 --> 02:06:37.760
but it's taking all of these years

02:06:37.760 --> 02:06:39.380
because there's so much

02:06:39.380 --> 02:06:41.380
you know like if I could sum it up

02:06:41.380 --> 02:06:42.980
without starting a whole new

02:06:42.980 --> 02:06:45.540
live stream and happy to talk

02:06:45.540 --> 02:06:47.620
after and follow it up in

02:06:47.620 --> 02:06:49.480
anyway is that the natural health

02:06:49.480 --> 02:06:51.220
world is more

02:06:51.920 --> 02:06:53.040
weaponized or at least

02:06:53.040 --> 02:06:55.160
equally weaponized against us

02:06:55.160 --> 02:06:56.580
than the mainstream

02:06:57.320 --> 02:06:57.920
hmm

02:06:58.800 --> 02:07:00.780
yeah that's a scary thought but

02:07:00.780 --> 02:07:02.720
if you look at if you follow the money

02:07:02.720 --> 02:07:05.000
yeah I don't I don't trust vitamins

02:07:05.000 --> 02:07:05.520
anymore

02:07:07.360 --> 02:07:08.820
right well I like

02:07:08.820 --> 02:07:10.800
I get you know whole foods

02:07:10.800 --> 02:07:12.580
and stuff I or

02:07:12.580 --> 02:07:15.100
this is the natural health

02:07:15.100 --> 02:07:16.640
Psiop don't trust

02:07:17.540 --> 02:07:18.740
pharmaceuticals like vitamins

02:07:18.740 --> 02:07:20.980
and do trust food

02:07:20.980 --> 02:07:22.080
well

02:07:22.520 --> 02:07:23.300
you would be

02:07:23.300 --> 02:07:26.640
disturbed the scale of the lie

02:07:26.640 --> 02:07:27.400
that that is

02:07:27.400 --> 02:07:30.380
of the lie that

02:07:30.380 --> 02:07:31.620
trusting food is

02:07:31.620 --> 02:07:33.840
well yeah food is also

02:07:34.940 --> 02:07:36.160
completely corrupted

02:07:36.660 --> 02:07:38.700
I'm surprised any of us is live at this

02:07:38.700 --> 02:07:40.840
point yeah and then and then the kicker

02:07:40.840 --> 02:07:42.760
is that the truthers don't like it

02:07:42.760 --> 02:07:44.420
they don't like

02:07:44.420 --> 02:07:46.720
the greater truth

02:07:46.720 --> 02:07:47.980
of it that has

02:07:49.020 --> 02:07:50.360
staggering amount of

02:07:50.360 --> 02:07:52.460
receipts and research

02:07:52.460 --> 02:07:54.480
and it's

02:07:54.480 --> 02:07:55.500
you can't look away

02:07:55.500 --> 02:07:58.340
you cannot look away you know the first

02:07:58.340 --> 02:08:00.380
interview of him I watched I'm like oh no

02:08:00.380 --> 02:08:02.280
that can't be true nope

02:08:03.020 --> 02:08:04.820
made me watch again I don't

02:08:04.820 --> 02:08:06.540
want to watch anything again nothing

02:08:06.540 --> 02:08:08.840
almost convenient truths

02:08:08.840 --> 02:08:10.480
very inconvenient truths

02:08:10.480 --> 02:08:13.080
I watched the second time I'm like darn it

02:08:13.080 --> 02:08:14.540
that sounds like it's

02:08:14.540 --> 02:08:16.260
explaining all the mysteries

02:08:16.260 --> 02:08:18.460
or a great deal of mysteries third time

02:08:18.460 --> 02:08:20.520
I watched I'm like okay I got to talk to this guy

02:08:20.520 --> 02:08:22.480
I had him on once

02:08:22.480 --> 02:08:24.380
I'm still a little bit on the edge by the

02:08:24.380 --> 02:08:26.380
second time I'm like there is absolutely

02:08:26.380 --> 02:08:27.320
no denying this

02:08:28.100 --> 02:08:30.040
and and and I've been a very

02:08:30.040 --> 02:08:32.400
close student with a lot of

02:08:32.400 --> 02:08:34.440
productive results to show

02:08:34.440 --> 02:08:36.540
for it and I'm not the only one there's

02:08:36.540 --> 02:08:38.280
like you know literally

02:08:38.280 --> 02:08:40.240
hundreds of people around him

02:08:40.240 --> 02:08:42.380
getting results with this stuff

02:08:42.380 --> 02:08:43.980
where the other stuff you can see

02:08:43.980 --> 02:08:45.960
if you've had any serious it's good

02:08:45.960 --> 02:08:48.080
you can play in natural health all day long

02:08:48.080 --> 02:08:49.900
and if you're young

02:08:49.900 --> 02:08:52.240
you can get away with that but you might notice

02:08:52.240 --> 02:08:54.360
how as as you get older

02:08:54.360 --> 02:08:56.180
I've no idea how old you are Mike but

02:08:56.180 --> 02:08:57.460
you know it the

02:08:58.140 --> 02:09:00.420
the bottom line is toxicity accumulates

02:09:00.420 --> 02:09:02.040
and becomes much more of a

02:09:02.040 --> 02:09:03.280
nemesis over time

02:09:04.040 --> 02:09:05.980
and detox slows down

02:09:05.980 --> 02:09:07.820
over time especially for women

02:09:08.260 --> 02:09:10.140
and so so

02:09:10.140 --> 02:09:11.720
yeah if you give me permission

02:09:11.720 --> 02:09:13.920
I will share a few things with you

02:09:13.920 --> 02:09:15.780
sure and if you're brave

02:09:15.780 --> 02:09:17.880
braver than most truthers

02:09:17.880 --> 02:09:19.800
I love my friends

02:09:19.800 --> 02:09:21.760
I'll talk to them anyway but

02:09:21.760 --> 02:09:24.100
they I have been

02:09:24.100 --> 02:09:26.000
discounted offhand like I'm

02:09:26.000 --> 02:09:27.940
surrounded by people who live on black

02:09:27.940 --> 02:09:28.760
pills so

02:09:29.680 --> 02:09:30.280
excellent

02:09:31.920 --> 02:09:32.520
excellent

02:09:32.520 --> 02:09:35.160
I don't know if you're familiar with Mark

02:09:35.160 --> 02:09:37.040
Devlin and this just the whole idea

02:09:37.040 --> 02:09:38.980
of you know that God

02:09:38.980 --> 02:09:39.800
might not be

02:09:40.640 --> 02:09:42.960
you know the benevolent

02:09:42.960 --> 02:09:44.580
creator that we were taught

02:09:44.580 --> 02:09:46.740
I'm not of that mindset

02:09:46.740 --> 02:09:48.860
personally but I understand the

02:09:48.860 --> 02:09:49.860
argumentation and

02:09:50.710 --> 02:09:53.280
when they lay out the arguments

02:09:53.280 --> 02:09:55.020
it's kind of hard to deny

02:09:55.020 --> 02:09:56.540
the perspective but I just

02:09:56.540 --> 02:09:58.720
I have the conclusion

02:09:58.720 --> 02:10:00.340
that I think it's

02:10:00.340 --> 02:10:02.600
more profound and complex

02:10:02.600 --> 02:10:04.140
than we can understand

02:10:04.140 --> 02:10:05.260
and so

02:10:05.960 --> 02:10:07.940
the things that they're saying about that are not

02:10:07.940 --> 02:10:09.040
necessarily true but

02:10:09.780 --> 02:10:11.780
there's a lot of other subjects that

02:10:11.780 --> 02:10:13.940
that can be said about as well

02:10:13.940 --> 02:10:16.100
right and there is truth to be had

02:10:16.100 --> 02:10:17.680
it's raised the standard of

02:10:17.680 --> 02:10:19.920
the research and the

02:10:19.920 --> 02:10:22.100
evidence so-called evidence I'm willing to accept

02:10:22.100 --> 02:10:23.820
because all of a sudden now

02:10:23.820 --> 02:10:25.540
this is off the charts and

02:10:26.080 --> 02:10:27.660
most people are making claims that

02:10:27.660 --> 02:10:29.440
really don't have a base

02:10:30.380 --> 02:10:32.180
and being heavily invested in that

02:10:32.180 --> 02:10:34.020
anyway I'm going to get off that soapbox for

02:10:34.020 --> 02:10:35.460
a second because it doesn't end

02:10:35.940 --> 02:10:37.900
and the very last question

02:10:37.900 --> 02:10:39.600
I would love to ask you bringing attention

02:10:39.600 --> 02:10:41.640
back to your work and this actually

02:10:41.640 --> 02:10:43.000
quite great accomplishment

02:10:43.700 --> 02:10:45.880
is that you mentioned that it took you

02:10:45.880 --> 02:10:47.080
through a catharsis

02:10:47.660 --> 02:10:49.840
and that's what I noticed as I

02:10:49.840 --> 02:10:51.700
wrote my book and edited my book

02:10:51.700 --> 02:10:53.820
and re-edited my book is that

02:10:53.820 --> 02:10:55.780
it brought waves and waves

02:10:55.780 --> 02:10:57.600
and waves of my own

02:10:57.600 --> 02:10:59.300
inner experience to the surface

02:10:59.300 --> 02:11:01.400
things that I really didn't know were there

02:11:01.400 --> 02:11:03.160
you know I thought I had healed

02:11:03.160 --> 02:11:04.620
from my

02:11:05.300 --> 02:11:07.060
cancer for example and

02:11:07.060 --> 02:11:09.260
then I could still

02:11:09.260 --> 02:11:11.340
make myself cry by reading my

02:11:11.340 --> 02:11:13.260
own book and so

02:11:13.260 --> 02:11:15.340
I'm curious what that was

02:11:15.340 --> 02:11:16.980
like for you if you feel like sharing

02:11:18.520 --> 02:11:19.880
well the catharsis

02:11:19.880 --> 02:11:21.500
for me was more just

02:11:21.500 --> 02:11:23.440
bringing the project

02:11:23.440 --> 02:11:25.100
to fruition I mean there were

02:11:25.100 --> 02:11:27.340
times I went

02:11:27.340 --> 02:11:29.180
through a separation

02:11:29.180 --> 02:11:31.200
after 25 years that about

02:11:31.200 --> 02:11:32.580
five years ago so

02:11:33.300 --> 02:11:35.420
I've never shared that on my channel at all

02:11:35.420 --> 02:11:37.240
like what the things that were

02:11:37.240 --> 02:11:38.960
going on in my personal life but there was

02:11:38.960 --> 02:11:41.120
I had some of the roughest years

02:11:41.120 --> 02:11:42.740
of my life even as I was

02:11:43.220 --> 02:11:45.000
having a lot of fun

02:11:45.000 --> 02:11:46.920
things and praise from the

02:11:46.920 --> 02:11:48.480
work that I was doing and

02:11:48.480 --> 02:11:51.100
the last couple years being invited to a lot

02:11:51.100 --> 02:11:53.240
of different events to speak that's all been

02:11:53.240 --> 02:11:55.120
amazing but it's you know it's been

02:11:56.040 --> 02:11:57.160
juxtaposed by my

02:11:57.880 --> 02:11:58.600
you know

02:11:59.320 --> 02:12:01.080
like family life being in

02:12:01.080 --> 02:12:02.700
tatters in many ways

02:12:03.700 --> 02:12:04.260
so

02:12:05.060 --> 02:12:06.100
so there were times

02:12:06.100 --> 02:12:09.180
throughout that period where I was just like

02:12:09.180 --> 02:12:11.180
am I going to die

02:12:11.180 --> 02:12:13.160
before this book gets out

02:12:13.160 --> 02:12:15.080
like you know what if something

02:12:15.080 --> 02:12:16.760
happens to me there's some

02:12:16.760 --> 02:12:18.600
book that I read a long time ago I don't

02:12:18.600 --> 02:12:21.020
remember the exact words but it was basically like

02:12:21.020 --> 02:12:21.660
you know

02:12:21.660 --> 02:12:21.720
so

02:12:23.060 --> 02:12:25.060
don't die with your song

02:12:25.660 --> 02:12:26.820
unsung you know

02:12:27.420 --> 02:12:28.940
and not that that was

02:12:28.940 --> 02:12:31.340
my song like that it's

02:12:31.340 --> 02:12:32.820
a song it's a story

02:12:33.460 --> 02:12:35.140
but I have another five books

02:12:35.400 --> 02:12:37.360
that I'd like to write two of

02:12:37.360 --> 02:12:38.640
them I've already started

02:12:39.460 --> 02:12:41.380
one is basically half written so

02:12:41.380 --> 02:12:42.940
I've got a lot

02:12:43.600 --> 02:12:45.320
you know that I want to accomplish

02:12:45.320 --> 02:12:46.860
but the catharsis was

02:12:47.540 --> 02:12:49.220
like focusing

02:12:49.220 --> 02:12:51.040
and the discipline

02:12:51.040 --> 02:12:53.140
to bring it to

02:12:53.140 --> 02:12:55.080
fruition and to make it

02:12:55.080 --> 02:12:57.060
a product that I could be proud of because

02:12:57.060 --> 02:12:59.140
I'm a very slow worker

02:12:59.140 --> 02:13:00.740
but I'm a perfectionist also

02:13:00.740 --> 02:13:03.020
and usually when I finally do do

02:13:03.020 --> 02:13:05.080
something and it comes out it's a very

02:13:05.080 --> 02:13:05.780
high quality

02:13:06.760 --> 02:13:08.940
but it's I'm like

02:13:08.940 --> 02:13:10.200
it's like kicking a donkey

02:13:10.200 --> 02:13:13.020
I can go through very long periods of time where

02:13:13.020 --> 02:13:15.280
I'm unproductive because I'm

02:13:15.280 --> 02:13:17.020
you know ruminating and musing over

02:13:17.020 --> 02:13:18.880
all kinds of different ideas and I

02:13:18.880 --> 02:13:20.480
and I beat myself up for

02:13:21.020 --> 02:13:22.980
for you know not

02:13:22.980 --> 02:13:24.920
being more effective or productive

02:13:24.920 --> 02:13:26.800
or making better use of my time and

02:13:26.800 --> 02:13:28.780
I just have to honor like

02:13:28.780 --> 02:13:31.180
that is a use of time also

02:13:31.180 --> 02:13:33.020
the rumination is an important part of

02:13:33.020 --> 02:13:35.100
the process but it's been

02:13:35.100 --> 02:13:37.160
it's been very cathartic

02:13:37.540 --> 02:13:39.040
to finally finish that

02:13:39.040 --> 02:13:40.320
and have it done and

02:13:40.900 --> 02:13:42.920
and it's the first time in my life I have an asset

02:13:42.920 --> 02:13:44.800
you know because even as a chiropractor

02:13:44.800 --> 02:13:45.440
I'm trading

02:13:46.020 --> 02:13:47.720
I'm trading time for money

02:13:47.720 --> 02:13:50.620
I don't see it that way I'm trading my skills

02:13:50.620 --> 02:13:52.500
for money a lot of people come

02:13:52.500 --> 02:13:54.560
in thinking I'm trading my time and they're like

02:13:54.560 --> 02:13:56.880
well this is expensive for the amount of time

02:13:56.880 --> 02:13:58.480
you spent it's like no you're not paying

02:13:58.480 --> 02:14:00.600
for the time you're paying for the

02:14:00.600 --> 02:14:02.800
expertise just like I had to

02:14:02.800 --> 02:14:04.420
pay you know a hundred grand to go

02:14:04.420 --> 02:14:06.580
through chiropractic school to get that expertise

02:14:06.580 --> 02:14:08.580
you know so they they're

02:14:08.580 --> 02:14:09.800
focusing on the wrong thing

02:14:09.800 --> 02:14:12.280
you know they're focusing on the time

02:14:12.280 --> 02:14:13.540
spent rather than

02:14:13.540 --> 02:14:15.800
how effective was the time spent

02:14:16.480 --> 02:14:18.260
you know time for dollars

02:14:18.260 --> 02:14:19.820
is the biggest tool of slavery

02:14:19.820 --> 02:14:22.440
right there yeah and so

02:14:22.440 --> 02:14:24.320
so this is the first time in my life

02:14:24.320 --> 02:14:26.120
I've got something that's like it's out there

02:14:26.120 --> 02:14:28.320
and it'll well always

02:14:28.320 --> 02:14:30.440
is a sketchy word to use

02:14:30.440 --> 02:14:32.240
but you know unless something

02:14:32.240 --> 02:14:34.400
weird happens or the world

02:14:34.400 --> 02:14:36.160
you know starts to really go into chaos

02:14:36.160 --> 02:14:38.280
that's going to be there for a long time

02:14:38.280 --> 02:14:40.120
to come and hopefully it'll be enjoyed

02:14:40.120 --> 02:14:42.120
by a lot of people and like I said maybe

02:14:42.120 --> 02:14:43.620
it'll be a screenplay someday and

02:14:43.620 --> 02:14:44.920
a movie but

02:14:45.860 --> 02:14:48.300
that that was a cathartic thing for me

02:14:48.900 --> 02:14:50.100
to to complete

02:14:50.100 --> 02:14:51.920
it and to to have

02:14:51.920 --> 02:14:54.200
have that like feather in my

02:14:54.200 --> 02:14:56.020
cap finally after all this time

02:14:56.020 --> 02:14:58.200
nice nice so I'm going to

02:14:58.200 --> 02:14:59.520
post the link again

02:15:00.320 --> 02:15:01.840
and yeah it's a really

02:15:01.840 --> 02:15:04.020
emotional kind of a process

02:15:04.020 --> 02:15:06.180
to go through like a hero's

02:15:06.180 --> 02:15:07.620
journey of its own I

02:15:07.620 --> 02:15:10.080
always amazed I'm writing about the hero's journey

02:15:10.080 --> 02:15:11.660
but I'm going through a hero's journey

02:15:11.660 --> 02:15:12.940
writing that's our

02:15:12.940 --> 02:15:15.300
book and getting it out so

02:15:15.300 --> 02:15:17.320
there is the link I hope you can

02:15:17.320 --> 02:15:19.780
let me know if you can you can tap on that

02:15:19.780 --> 02:15:21.720
or if you can click on

02:15:21.720 --> 02:15:22.980
that you should be able to

02:15:23.600 --> 02:15:25.560
click the link part and

02:15:25.560 --> 02:15:27.540
I do recommend that I'm going to go grab

02:15:27.540 --> 02:15:29.540
a copy for my son and praying that he'll sit

02:15:29.540 --> 02:15:30.280
and read a book

02:15:31.500 --> 02:15:33.260
if not I'll have to wait for the

02:15:33.720 --> 02:15:34.160
the

02:15:34.160 --> 02:15:36.600
my son is my son is

02:15:36.600 --> 02:15:38.080
reading it right now and he was

02:15:38.080 --> 02:15:39.660
fun he's like

02:15:41.220 --> 02:15:42.420
he said

02:15:42.420 --> 02:15:43.960
there was very well written

02:15:43.960 --> 02:15:46.220
and he's he's 21

02:15:46.220 --> 02:15:47.260
and

02:15:48.020 --> 02:15:49.340
and he's like I can't

02:15:49.340 --> 02:15:52.000
I can't believe that it's you

02:15:52.000 --> 02:15:53.960
like and I was like yeah I

02:15:53.960 --> 02:15:56.080
can't either it's like it feels

02:15:56.080 --> 02:15:57.740
like a different lifetime so

02:15:58.860 --> 02:16:00.040
it's it's an

02:16:00.040 --> 02:16:02.020
interesting thing my daughter

02:16:02.020 --> 02:16:04.080
read it she was really she loved it

02:16:04.080 --> 02:16:05.820
she read the second half

02:16:05.820 --> 02:16:07.740
on the plane back from Australia

02:16:08.680 --> 02:16:10.100
and she kept looking

02:16:10.100 --> 02:16:12.040
over at me as she's shaking her head the whole

02:16:12.040 --> 02:16:12.600
time like

02:16:13.640 --> 02:16:16.040
because you have to have gotten to the exciting stuff

02:16:16.040 --> 02:16:17.860
if you're at the halfway part man it's

02:16:17.860 --> 02:16:19.160
it's just speeding up

02:16:20.160 --> 02:16:22.020
but good for your I don't

02:16:22.020 --> 02:16:24.040
know how old your kids are they're probably not kids

02:16:24.040 --> 02:16:25.380
but good for them 24

02:16:25.380 --> 02:16:27.600
and almost 22 okay fantastic

02:16:27.600 --> 02:16:30.060
yeah yeah good for them I think I kind of

02:16:30.060 --> 02:16:31.940
made my son read the book and it's

02:16:31.940 --> 02:16:34.220
it's such a gift to them and anyone

02:16:34.220 --> 02:16:36.020
you know down the line

02:16:36.020 --> 02:16:38.240
that you're leaving this legacy

02:16:38.240 --> 02:16:40.060
my my grandma wrote a book she never

02:16:40.060 --> 02:16:41.920
did publish it but having written it

02:16:41.920 --> 02:16:44.060
her mother's story you know so

02:16:44.060 --> 02:16:45.980
that you you realize

02:16:45.980 --> 02:16:47.880
very quickly when I lost both my parents

02:16:47.880 --> 02:16:50.300
and then I lost the majority

02:16:50.300 --> 02:16:52.020
of the extended family to the

02:16:52.020 --> 02:16:53.780
COVID thing that

02:16:53.780 --> 02:16:55.620
like how quickly lines

02:16:55.620 --> 02:16:57.920
disappear and and all of the data

02:16:57.920 --> 02:16:59.560
that is

02:16:59.560 --> 02:17:01.540
the real and true stuff

02:17:01.540 --> 02:17:03.900
that gets passed down right the

02:17:03.900 --> 02:17:05.140
the living data

02:17:05.920 --> 02:17:07.820
so good for you

02:17:07.820 --> 02:17:09.580
yeah I wish like my grandmother

02:17:09.580 --> 02:17:11.700
lived to be 102 and she was

02:17:11.700 --> 02:17:13.400
still pretty pretty sharp

02:17:13.920 --> 02:17:15.660
you know right up to the end

02:17:17.500 --> 02:17:19.820
but I would have loved to talk to her

02:17:19.820 --> 02:17:21.660
about like pottery and

02:17:21.660 --> 02:17:23.840
world's fairs and things

02:17:23.840 --> 02:17:25.900
like that because you know

02:17:25.900 --> 02:17:27.160
she probably knew stuff

02:17:27.760 --> 02:17:29.720
you know that that would have been

02:17:29.720 --> 02:17:31.940
interesting and yeah

02:17:31.940 --> 02:17:33.060
that's like

02:17:33.960 --> 02:17:36.140
the legacies and the heritage

02:17:36.140 --> 02:17:38.400
and the traditions and the

02:17:38.400 --> 02:17:39.700
the wisdom

02:17:39.700 --> 02:17:41.640
of plants and all these things that

02:17:41.640 --> 02:17:43.600
it's just like steadily being

02:17:43.600 --> 02:17:45.760
done away with but it's all

02:17:45.760 --> 02:17:47.620
there to be found if you go looking

02:17:47.620 --> 02:17:49.800
for it on the internet now as long

02:17:49.800 --> 02:17:50.740
as we have that

02:17:51.400 --> 02:17:53.560
you know but they need

02:17:53.560 --> 02:17:55.220
that they need all that structure

02:17:55.220 --> 02:17:56.720
to control us so

02:17:57.300 --> 02:17:59.740
I don't see it going away anytime soon

02:18:00.660 --> 02:18:01.220
yeah

02:18:01.220 --> 02:18:03.100
exactly excellent point yeah

02:18:03.100 --> 02:18:05.320
yeah well

02:18:06.040 --> 02:18:07.640
I think we did a really good job

02:18:07.640 --> 02:18:09.340
this is a beautifully

02:18:09.340 --> 02:18:11.660
satisfying yeah yeah it was a nice

02:18:11.660 --> 02:18:13.360
conversation I really

02:18:13.360 --> 02:18:15.520
I appreciate it when

02:18:15.520 --> 02:18:17.060
when I don't have to go into

02:18:17.060 --> 02:18:19.360
presentation mode and like show a

02:18:19.360 --> 02:18:21.420
bunch of stuff because I like the dialogue

02:18:21.420 --> 02:18:23.360
and I like the way with each

02:18:23.360 --> 02:18:25.340
each person it

02:18:25.340 --> 02:18:27.380
leads to like different directions

02:18:27.380 --> 02:18:29.400
and I don't like telling the same

02:18:29.400 --> 02:18:31.380
stories the same ways over and over

02:18:31.380 --> 02:18:33.180
again I get bored hearing myself talk

02:18:33.180 --> 02:18:35.480
so I love it when questions

02:18:35.480 --> 02:18:36.860
are insightful and

02:18:37.300 --> 02:18:38.980
you know meanders

02:18:40.080 --> 02:18:41.120
nice nice

02:18:41.120 --> 02:18:43.340
that's beautiful well thank you so much for coming

02:18:43.340 --> 02:18:45.500
any last words you wanted to share at all

02:18:45.500 --> 02:18:47.400
no thank you all for

02:18:47.400 --> 02:18:49.160
listening those of you who are

02:18:49.160 --> 02:18:49.540
and

02:18:50.400 --> 02:18:51.280
yeah I know

02:18:52.220 --> 02:18:54.120
hi to all the bears there's

02:18:54.120 --> 02:18:55.260
few of them in there

02:18:56.500 --> 02:18:57.840
yeah I'm always on

02:18:58.600 --> 02:19:01.020
I've had a couple of exchanges with Owen

02:19:01.020 --> 02:19:03.160
actually I talked to him once on I was

02:19:03.160 --> 02:19:04.840
at Mike Winners place

02:19:06.000 --> 02:19:06.480
and

02:19:06.480 --> 02:19:09.120
I was leaving and he was actually

02:19:09.120 --> 02:19:10.300
interviewing Owen

02:19:11.260 --> 02:19:12.800
so I talked to him for about

02:19:12.800 --> 02:19:14.720
10 minutes but I don't know if you remember that

02:19:14.720 --> 02:19:15.720
oh very good

02:19:15.720 --> 02:19:18.060
yeah he's he's I don't

02:19:18.060 --> 02:19:19.680
want to make any meaning but he's avoided

02:19:19.680 --> 02:19:21.680
me I've made a few attempts

02:19:21.680 --> 02:19:23.560
that inviting him and

02:19:24.820 --> 02:19:25.940
there there's

02:19:25.940 --> 02:19:27.500
not the interest or the

02:19:27.500 --> 02:19:28.900
I don't know what it is

02:19:29.780 --> 02:19:30.340
yeah

02:19:31.580 --> 02:19:33.720
Andrew Treggly I don't know to turn your

02:19:33.720 --> 02:19:35.720
book into a screenplay is I've

02:19:35.720 --> 02:19:37.740
not heard of Andrew Treggly

02:19:37.740 --> 02:19:39.000
I don't know who that would be

02:19:39.720 --> 02:19:41.380
so Paul or about him or why

02:19:41.380 --> 02:19:43.500
would I contact him yeah

02:19:43.500 --> 02:19:45.460
if Paul and I are in context

02:19:45.460 --> 02:19:47.500
so if you want to send me any more details

02:19:47.500 --> 02:19:49.320
I can pass that on to Mike if you like

02:19:50.560 --> 02:19:51.580
and yeah that

02:19:51.580 --> 02:19:52.840
would be epic definitely

02:19:53.500 --> 02:19:54.180
definitely would be

02:19:55.000 --> 02:19:57.480
all right my dearest well I'm going to play us

02:19:57.480 --> 02:19:59.340
out showing out to my son who does

02:19:59.340 --> 02:20:01.460
both the intro and the extra music

02:20:01.460 --> 02:20:02.840
for the king heroes dream podcast

02:20:03.700 --> 02:20:05.480
he's psycho on YouTube

02:20:05.480 --> 02:20:05.880
his

02:20:07.260 --> 02:20:09.540
that's his hacker name it is

02:20:09.540 --> 02:20:11.400
in the notes below if you feel to go and

02:20:11.400 --> 02:20:13.600
sub to him he's got a full-time job and a full-time

02:20:13.600 --> 02:20:15.520
girlfriend now so he's not really

02:20:15.520 --> 02:20:16.380
making any

02:20:16.380 --> 02:20:17.320
any

02:20:18.400 --> 02:20:19.860
on your own now

02:20:20.880 --> 02:20:21.380
exactly

02:20:22.780 --> 02:20:24.300
empty nester syndrome

02:20:24.300 --> 02:20:26.580
totally I know it's

02:20:26.580 --> 02:20:29.380
I've been trying to call him today are we

02:20:29.380 --> 02:20:31.300
on for dinner we on for dinner not getting

02:20:31.300 --> 02:20:33.280
through so we'll see

02:20:33.280 --> 02:20:35.680
wish me luck me too I have more freedom

02:20:35.680 --> 02:20:36.820
than ever now but

02:20:37.360 --> 02:20:39.320
there's like oh what am I going to do

02:20:39.320 --> 02:20:40.460
with all that freedom

02:20:40.460 --> 02:20:43.020
right exactly

02:20:43.020 --> 02:20:43.820
exactly

02:20:44.600 --> 02:20:47.320
okay my dear well thank you so much for being

02:20:47.320 --> 02:20:49.260
here what a joy for the invite

02:20:49.260 --> 02:20:51.620
it was wonderful to to be here

02:20:51.620 --> 02:20:53.220
you're very take care everybody

02:20:53.220 --> 02:20:55.500
okay lots of love

02:20:55.500 --> 02:20:56.600
bye for now