Hello and welcome to the King Heroes Journey podcast.
My name is Beth Martens.
It's November 6th, 2025.
Sometimes I say that just to remind myself
I've become incredibly disoriented
these last few weeks around time change.
I'm now considering it as an actual disorder.
I have Mike Wilkerson on today.
I'm super, super excited to speak with him.
I apologize for last week.
There was definitely some confusion.
I can see lots of messages in the chat.
Where's Beth?
Where's Mike?
What's going on here?
And they're trying to figure it all out.
But we made it.
We are here.
I am definitely excited to talk to Mike.
We're live on Facebook and YouTube and X, also Rumble.
If you are able, please help me share out this link
so that more people could find us.
I know there was definitely some confusion.
So without further ado, I'm going to bring Mike on.
Hello, Mike, and welcome to The King Here's Journey.
Hi, Beth.
Hi, everybody.
So great to have you here.
This is our second interview.
I thoroughly enjoyed the first one.
We got such a great comment.
They said that my interview skills,
while always tremendous, continually evolve.
The conversation with Mike was so particularly good.
I don't have the words to convey.
We were really in sync.
So again, no pressure.
I'll have to rewatch it.
Right.
Yeah, me too.
That's what I figure if I ever lose the internet,
I've got my whole library of past interviews.
And I'll just put them on autoplay.
And that'll be the rest of my life.
Yeah, wealth of information there.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Hello, Mary.
Nice to see you.
Welcome to the stream.
And yeah, come and say hi in the chat.
Remember to report was here last week.
Thanks for all the help.
He's a good tech guy.
And he was trying to troubleshoot for me,
wondering what was going on.
But do come and say hello in the chat.
It's always nice to have you guys tune in.
This same lady from my own province here in Manitoba.
We have a date coming up for dinner.
Looking forward to that.
She's connecting me with an accountant.
I also have an accountant disorder.
It doesn't matter who I've worked with.
It seems to be just a complete, I don't know,
some like weird.
There's, is it an archetypal thing,
the shadow of that or one of those?
Well, accountant usually means taxes.
And taxes means totalitarian oppression.
So one goes hand in hand.
Right.
Yeah, the accountants are kind of like managers
in that situation where they have no power.
They answer to the government
and they answer to the client.
Now I've never seen that happen really well.
The other part.
The best accountant is one that despises the IRS.
Right, right, exactly.
Yeah, that they're trying everything sideways.
But yeah, I just can't get them to actually do the work.
So I'm trying to transition and wish me luck on that.
But thank you.
So if you're not familiar with Mike Wilkerson,
he is the author of a new book
that I have got halfway through called The Hacker Prince.
And I find this incredibly intriguing.
I know that I myself will never have hacking skills,
but I'm so interested in that.
And your book does a good job.
Like I said, I managed to read half of it
and it does a good job of showing the evolution
of how you took on that role.
I'm curious about the archetype behind The Hacker
and what that is.
So maybe I'll pipe in if I start to feel it or see it.
And for those that don't know Mike, for over a decade,
he has worked as a chiropractor in Spain where he is now
and where his mission has been to help improve one spine,
improve health one spine and mind at a time.
Mike has always asked unconventional questions
as a team computer hobbyist turned hacker
in the early 80s, his thirst for deeper knowledge
led to wild adventures with some
of the top hackers in the nation.
In 1985, the fun ended with a brief incarceration
for his infiltration of computer servers at Microsoft
and three other Seattle corporations
interest in examining the unquestionables never waned.
In the decades that followed,
Mike evolved from mischievous hacker
to benevolent backcracker and in his recent years
an independent researcher.
His research and presentations are available
on the stellium seven YouTube channel.
And I did post a link here in the chat.
You could click right on if you want to go
and sub to him and follow him.
He's got a wonderful audience as well.
I know I've met some nice people through you.
Hello, Genevieve.
Welcome.
Is there anything more that you want to add?
Mike, by way of introduction, what you're up to.
Actually closer to 15 now.
15.
Working on the coast of Blanca in Spain
as a chiropractor.
Right.
From hacker to cracker.
That's great.
Yeah, the chiropractic, it's such an interesting
before we get right into the meat of the interview today.
The chiropractic is one of those fields
that I saw a chiropractor.
I've got a frozen shoulder thing
and I haven't cracked the code of that yet
and saw a chiropractor for a good solid year.
Just gave it a try.
I did the x-rays, did the testing
and I'd go in and she'd shoot me with her little gun.
I'm sure you know what that is, little thing.
The activator.
Is that what it's called?
Okay, okay.
And I'm sorry to say, it didn't do anything.
You know, there was sometimes-
Yeah, she's doing Ossia's adjustment as well,
like clicks and pops in the spine.
Almost none, every so often.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, for something like frozen shoulder,
often needs a little more intense treatment.
I've had it myself.
It is not fun, especially as a chiropractor
because you're using your shoulders for every adjustment.
So it's short jolts, quick movements
are excruciating when it's really frozen.
So that's exactly what a chiropractor does
all day long, your short little quick jolts.
So it was not fun.
Chiropractic helps, stretching helps.
I would get a massage gun,
one of those, the vibrating ones
and use it on a regular basis.
But it's just a time thing also with frozen shoulders.
They don't know why they come
and they just kind of fade away
or they stay and people have a non-growing restricted motion.
So you got to work at it to regain the mobility.
Right, yeah, that's what I've noticed.
I was trying to push it
because I haven't really noticed it that much.
I've just learned to work around it.
That's what a disability does
is that you stop making the motion that hurts
and then it seems better.
So I was pushing it and like overextending it
and then for two days,
the shoulder told me, don't do that.
What's wrong?
What's your problem?
Yeah.
I also had a...
Did you want to say more?
No, I was just gonna say I sympathize with it
because I actually had two frozen shoulders.
So I had it in one
and it took about a year and a half
and then I was so relieved it was finally gone
and then I came on on the other side
and I have no idea why.
I think stress, emotional stuff,
you know, there's, I don't know,
German New Medicine probably has something to say about that
but I don't know what it would be.
Right.
Yeah.
What was I gonna say?
I saw an osteopath after that
and there seemed to be some benefit from it
and the one thing that was interesting,
she said that the deltoid is a common repository of toxicity
and so I wondered if that wasn't a part of it,
how it's restricting the motion with stuff in there.
So I'm on a major detox.
I've been doing this for over a year now
and wondering if that's going to help it
but my osteopath said, yeah,
they just go away and nobody knows why.
I was like, okay, good.
So I won't worry.
Thankfully.
Right, right, got it.
Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one.
Hello, Patricia.
Yeah, when you're in the middle of it,
it can feel like it's never gonna go away.
So just have faith
and yeah, envelope it with light
and healing energy.
Mm-hmm, exactly, exactly.
Rather than that, well, that's the interesting part
about when you've got a part of your body
that either has pain or it's not functioning properly,
is that unconsciously,
we tend to disapprove of that part of our body
and that's programming, that's a withholding of love
and so that is an added problem to the original problem.
Yeah, I often talk with people about the language
they're using when they describe their bodies.
It's like, that's my bad, this, that, or the other.
You know, or they speak very disparagingly
of their own body and they don't realize
that the symptoms are there is a clue.
It's a message
and people don't wanna hear the messages oftentimes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and being loving with something
is really different than withholding love.
So yeah, Jackie Kay, you had the shoulder issue
and you blamed it on oxalate dumping.
I stopped eating kiwis after I heard that from you,
just in case.
Oh no, I had one today.
Oh, you did?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's apparently concentrated in the seeds
and I find that fascinating too
because the plants will hide its biggest poison
in the part that it would reproduce with
and maybe that's how it teaches animals.
Like yeah, don't eat at least too much of me
so that I can survive and reproduce.
Yeah.
Moderation is key.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Cycling through things that you're not sure of
or you know are high in toxins,
make them sometimes or never.
Yeah, yeah, and same lady has the same problem.
Darn, constant pain.
Oh crap, yeah, I only have pain
when I move the wrong way.
But yeah, looking forward to full extension
at some point.
All right, well, without further ado,
before we get too deep in the rabbit hole
that I always can go into these days on detox,
that's a never ending fascination
learning more and more every day.
Let's talk about hacking.
That it seems like, I'll just say this kind of bluntly
is that I like knowing you that you're hacking.
Like would you consider yourself
to be an expert at hacking?
Absolutely not.
Oh, absolutely not.
No, no.
I left hacking after I got busted
and my court case ensued and I never went back.
I was on the cutting edge of a new wave of laws
that were making it stream, you know.
And so I knew if I reoffended
that it would not be good for me
and I would probably end up in prison
for maybe multiple years.
And other hackers did go to prison for multiple years.
So I was lucky to get off lightly,
but I walked away from a world
that had really been the better part of my social life
for four or five years and never went back.
I just, I turned a page
and started a new life basically.
So it's strange for me to be talking about all this stuff now.
The October 17th this month, last month
was the 40th anniversary of the day I got busted.
So it's literally like four decades ago
that these events happened.
So it's interesting to revisit them,
but it feels like another life, like another person.
So it's a bit unusual actually to discuss these things,
but I'm happy to talk about it.
It's, they're fun subjects.
Right, right.
And it must have been isolating
when you lost your community,
you had to walk away from all of that.
Yeah, I was forced to get back into the real world
and I was living in Seattle at the time,
but I was from California
and I just random circumstances,
which I talk about in the book,
cause me to end up in Seattle.
And I was only there for a few months when I got caught.
And so after that,
the first job I had was making sandwiches in a deli
called the apples, et cetera, that was in a mall.
And it was actually fun, not so much the work,
but just actually having a real job
and supporting myself for the first time.
And I started to make friends.
I had a lot of challenges when I was in school,
in my hometown in Ojai, California,
both from junior high and onto high school
that made social life tough for me.
And so it was really refreshing being in Seattle
and meeting new people and just being accepted
for who I was and not having a shadow
of preconceived notions that were following after me.
So it was actually a really fun and rich time in my life,
which I don't discuss in the book
because those are things that happened
after the meat of the story.
Right, so that's really interesting
because just by observation of the time sets,
I mean, have we met in person?
I feel like we have.
We did at Anarcapulco.
I think we talked about this last time, I can't.
I think we did at Anarcapulco,
but then I think maybe we were not at the same year.
So I don't know.
It was not the last one,
but the one before that I was at.
I was there too, yeah.
You were?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, wait, were you one of the ones
that came down with Monozoom's Revenge?
Not that.
No.
Not that year.
Yeah, because there were a couple of people
that were just knocked out.
I know big, strong men.
Toast your gardener.
Yeah, yeah, no, it happened to me last year.
I was there for 48 hours,
and then I was out for the entire conference,
just sweating it out and crying it out,
and it's just far off.
Oh, actually, I do remember seeing you on stage now.
So yeah, we were there,
but I don't think we really talk much, if at all.
No, I just, so I was observing you
and you're incredibly social, right?
And you're very connected and people love you.
And so how do you think that shifted
from those early days
when you felt like that wasn't your...
I've always been pretty gregarious
and loved socializing.
I think part of it is being an only child.
So having no siblings, like if there were no friends
around, you had to go out and make them.
So I was eager to interact with people.
So I guess that never left me,
and that was one of the frustrating things
when I was going through school is that there was...
Back when I was 12, at the end of seventh grade
in junior high, a rumor was spread about me
that I was gay and that I'd been caught doing things
that I hadn't done.
Neither were true, but everyone loves a good rumor.
And so it spread like wildfire through the school
and basically haunted me for the next three, four years
until I dropped out of high school.
So it was sports, tennis and soccer
that really, and later cycling,
that were an outlet for me.
So I had hobbies and passions.
And it was always nuts about girls,
but I was a very late bloomer.
So that part of my life was also delayed.
So when it came to computers,
that became a real welcome outlet for me
because not only was it exciting from the tech perspective
but I started to make a whole social life.
I knew people all around the country
that I didn't know in person
and we weren't doing video calls like we can now,
but we were doing a whole lot of other stuff.
And so I got to know a lot of people
and eventually I met a bunch of those people in person.
And those are some of the fun chapters in the book,
those exploits.
Right, yeah, I think I'm right in the middle of them
if my memory serves correctly.
Yeah, the only child thing.
My mom was an only child,
which was very unusual for her generation.
And then my son is an only child too.
And it was funny just the other day
I was coming into full realization
like his children won't have aunties and uncles
and first cousins.
And it's just like, oh, wow, that's wild.
You know, it was kind of disappointing.
It took me 18 years to be disappointed by that.
I was grateful to have any child at all.
I was told I wasn't going to conceive
after all the chemo that I did.
And so I think it's a miracle that he exists.
But I can recognize that, say as a toddler
he was incredibly social.
He would just go up to anybody,
he would talk to them, he was fearless.
There was just this like, you know, natural,
yeah, I wanna interact and be with the people
and everything like that.
And COVID was so tragic for him
because that was his main and only social interaction
in the world.
So they took school away from them.
And when it came back as a possibility,
he's like, oh, I'm going, you can't stop me.
Cause by that point I'm like,
I don't think this is a good idea.
It's not an environment or maybe force inject you
or whatever could happen.
And he just was like, nope, I am going to be in school.
And he made so good on it cause he woke himself up
and didn't drink the Kool-Aid, didn't get injected,
could tell the difference between,
I don't know, real people and not real people
about half in the school.
So he did well and he developed a lot of friends
and a good social network out of it.
So yeah, I'm pretty happy for that, Kim.
Yeah, COVID messed with so many children's lives
and adults obviously.
So it's socially, I just think of all the children
who were wearing masks and, you know,
we're still learning language
and we didn't see faces or expressions or lips moving.
So there's going to be a lot of people
with stunted growth from that.
Exactly.
Yeah, and then the trauma, just, I mean,
there's a lot of layers of it in things that happen.
Lifetime, you just kind of get through it
and then the real healing often takes place later
when it's allowed, you know,
that the wounds are allowed to come up.
And so, yeah, I've often thought about doing a support group
for people that are trying to clean up
on all of that stuff.
Not a word.
Unfortunately, I think the majority of people
who kind of fell for all the lies
have buried their heads in the sand
and are just trying to forget that it happened.
So it's like a PTSD sort of thing
rather than going, wait a minute.
They lied to me about that.
They lied about this and that, you know,
I mean, there's so much evidence
and information out there now that shows
that literally every step of the way was a lie.
And then the entire scientific foundation
of the claims was also a lie.
So, you know, people that haven't woken up to that yet,
I don't have a whole lot of hope
that they're going to wake up at any point
when it comes to the kinds of lies
that the government perpetrates.
Exactly.
Yet when you, how would I phrase this?
When you believe lies, when you tell yourself lies,
then you're relegating a lot of data
to your unconscious.
You're literally not registering.
I had one nephew I ran into at my sister's wedding
because she's her, his son, her son.
And he had told me like, you know,
Antibeth never messaged me again, you need help.
I hope you go on medication.
I never want to talk to you again.
It was like devastating, absolutely devastating.
So I run into him at the wedding
and he was one of the few that was being kind with me.
He said, hello, how are you?
I wasn't getting that from anybody else.
And we even sat together and talked
but there was like zero mention
of what took place between us, the falling out
or there was no resolution.
There was no, I started to approach something
at one point in the conversation
and you could feel him going like, no, no, no,
Antibeth, we're not going there at all.
And yeah, yeah, just shut down.
Yeah, I had one close cousin unfriend me from Facebook
and cut off all contact.
And then another one of my cousins was so deep
into the propaganda that she had both of her children
jabbed and they stood with the band aid
and thumbs up in front of a life size
which would have been small cut out of Fauci.
And so they're like flanking Fauci's cut out
going, we've got this and I'm just like,
it just made me wanna cry actually
that there was so much worship of him
and the settled science.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Oh, that's a deep one.
We could do a support group right now
or we could go on and talk about your book.
Oh man, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, let's talk about hacking.
And so obviously you started on, if my memory serves
was it an Atari or what was your first computer again?
You have to remind me.
Well, the first one I had in my home
was the Texas Instruments TI-99 for A
which was a behemoth.
It was one of the first 16 bit machines
and it had all these expansion slots
and it was gonna be just the most amazing thing.
Tape cassette drive so you could load games, you know?
But nobody was writing any software for it
so it was really boring
and everyone had either a Commodore or an Apple
and eventually I got an Apple II.
The first one I ever got my hands on
was a pet Commodore that was in the local library
that I was able to use.
Yeah, yeah, it was this horrible little thing.
It had a 40 character screen
and a little scrunched up keyboard
that was even with my small hands at the time
was really hard to type.
And yeah, so it was a...
I was trying to teach myself basic
and I wanted to learn how to program
so that I could make video games of my own.
That was the original motivation
because I understood that the video games
that I was addicted to that were down at the bowling alley
were the stand up consoles, space invaders and asteroids
and that first wave of video games that came out.
Up until that point it was pinball machines and foosball
and then once the video games came out
it felt like the future was here
and it was just gonna be a matter of time
before we were transporting from one place to another
and flying at warp speed.
So I just loved the video games
and that was the motivation
to try and learn how to program
but I actually never did learn to program.
There are a lot of hackers that are amazing programmers
but then there are other hackers who are incredible hackers
that never learned to program
and some might wonder how that's possible
and the way that's possible is that the weakest link
in any security system is always the human element.
So if you know how to hack people
you can get them to give you whatever information
that you otherwise might have had to do some kind of a tech hack
in order to get.
So I had my weaknesses and I had my strengths
and I focused on the strengths
and programming was not one of them.
So I was good with software packages and operating systems
and I could tweak programs a little bit.
I knew the basics of basic
but I never got deep into the programming side of things.
So yeah, it was a love hate relationship
with computers from the beginning.
Okay, okay, there you go, interesting.
That might be the alchemist archetype
who's prone to love hate kind of relationships.
I think it was just more frustration
that I wasn't good at it from the get go
and I knew how much work it was gonna take
to get good at it.
So yeah, I took your test.
I did it last time also
but I couldn't remember what I was.
So I'm a nurturer, which you would expect
as an air practice.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Hopefully an awakened one.
Right, right, yeah, with good boundaries
and you don't hurt yourself helping others
is the main thing.
Less and less.
Good, good.
I have numerous times,
it's hard on shoulders and wrists and ribs.
Or just the physical wearer, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, you're behind the eight ball with that.
I know that to be the case
and yeah, no, the nurture is a beautiful one.
I never get far from that myself.
So yeah, thanks for taking the test.
That's awesome.
If anyone listening wants to learn
their King Hero archetype,
they can do that in 10 minutes on my website.
You can just sign up for that.
I've got a direct link
but not right in front of me this minute.
It is in the show notes below, I believe.
And yeah, so then the,
how would you describe the evolution
of computer technology?
We have this impression and they want us to believe
that things are so accelerated and so advanced
and what's your opinion of that?
Oh, that's a deep question.
I think a lot of technology was sequestered
from previous eras and is slowly being trickled out.
Like a lot of people are marveling
over the advancements in AI right now
and how quickly it's gone.
And they don't ponder the fact that,
they might have had generations of AI
that are way more advanced than what we have now
a long time ago.
And they've just been trickling out earlier versions.
So it's possible that they've had access
to this kind of technology for a long time
and have been faking all kinds of stuff
that we weren't aware of.
But when it comes to the like the devolution,
the evolution of computers, I mean, when I started,
my first modem was a 300-bod modem.
So it was all text-based
and the text would go about this speed across the screen.
So it's just fast enough that you could read it.
Yeah, maybe a little faster than that.
And then eventually I got a 1200-bod modem,
which made it too fast to read.
So I was like, it doesn't need to be this fast, you know?
And then eventually once you started trading photographs
or different software packages, you needed that bandwidth.
So then it went to 2400 and 14.4 and 28.8
and then 56K and eventually your fiber optic stuff.
So I've been there like since the beginning
where it was like cradle handset, you know?
So you didn't plug into the wall,
that literally the computers were talking to each other
with these squeaking, high-pitched noises
that sounded almost demonic.
And you could, you know, you connect to the phone line,
you could hear those sounds
and then you put the receiver down
and then you were connected, you know?
So it's like, it's interesting how far it's come,
you know, and just in my lifetime
to see the progression that we're doing this right now
and there's all kinds of people listening in.
But there were a bunch of things that we were doing back then
that were pretty sophisticated
and most people didn't even know they were possible.
Like we were hacking the phone network as well,
not just computers, but there were ways,
like you could make free calls with calling codes.
So I don't know if you remember Sprint and MCI.
For sure.
People who wanted to save money, you know,
instead of shelling out huge amounts to AT&T
that could go with these other services,
but they were also a hassle
because you had to dial a number
and then dial your personal code for billing
and then you would dial the number you wanted to call.
And also you would have degraded sound quality.
So like when you were connecting with a modem,
you would get line noise that would garbles
the text on the screen
and sometimes it would cause the call to drop and stuff.
So the codes were one way,
but then there were these things,
they were called the colored boxes.
There's blue box and red box.
Those were the most famous of them.
And what these did was they reproduced tones
that the telephone network would use for call routing.
So like when you would call an operator
to make an international call,
they would route the call
and then you would hear in the background this,
and these tones were different from the tones
on your keypad when you were using your home phone.
And there were multi-frequency tones
that ran that system.
So people figured this stuff out long before I came along
and had actually produced devices
that would replicate these tones.
So the most famous of the tones was 2600 Hertz
and there was, I think it still exists.
Oh, someone just said it's in the chat, 2600 Hertz sound.
Yeah, that was the master tone
because when you blew that tone,
it would knock the telephone operator off of her trunk.
The trunk was the line that she was operating.
So she would just think the call had terminated
and go on to the next call,
but you actually had control of her computer
at that, or not computer,
but her trunk was what it was called, the line.
And so once you had that,
if you could reproduce those multi-frequency tones
and knew how to use them,
you could do anything that the telephone operator could do.
And you could do international calling,
you could do conference calling,
you could do all kinds of different things.
And like one of the highest level things
that some of the freakers
is what they called themselves.
It's a combination of phone and freak,
so freak with a pH.
They would use these tones
and like the highest level of that skill
was a busy line verification,
which is like emergency interrupts
that the operators could do.
Like if a phone was off the hook for two days straight
and you were wondering like,
is it really off the hook
or is somebody injured in the home and they need help,
you could call to see if someone was actually,
the operators could break in on the line
to see if someone was actually conversing
or if the line was just dead.
And so that was an incredibly powerful thing
to have the ability to do
because it meant you could listen in
on other people's conversations.
So there were people who were doing that
and way more than that.
And then we also had these-
And did you listen in?
I never got to that level.
I was very close to being able to do that kind of stuff
right around the time that I got busted.
So, but I knew others who could
and a couple of them are,
what's the word for?
Somebody who's famous for the wrong reasons.
Infamous.
Infamous, thank you.
That's the word I was looking for.
Yeah, just go compliment.
And I'm like, and that's not a compliment, is it?
It depends on what it's for.
If it was for who you're talking to.
Yeah, so there was a system called Alliance Teleconferencing
that was designed for corporations and private people
to be able to do multi-line conference calls.
And so that was something that corporations
would pay often a flat rate for
and get unlimited usage or you could pay by the minute
and then it became exorbitant, the costs.
And it was, I think it was something
like almost a dollar a minute.
So if you could say you had five of your family members,
you wanted to talk to them all at the same time,
you could use this Alliance Teleconferencing
for those purposes.
And we were making use of those lines for party lines.
And so that was, once I got into the hacking world
and I started to meet hackers,
most of them were on the East Coast.
So it was far away.
And way too expensive to make calls to talk to them.
So these lines were amazing.
And you could have up to 20 people
or more on the line at a given time.
And it was like a late night party
that you could fall asleep and wake up
and people would still be talking on the lines.
But they were also really great
for sharing information and just trying stuff out.
Because you could dial in numbers.
So you could call an unsuspecting victim.
And we would take turns trying to weasel information
out of somebody at the phone company
or that sort of thing.
So it was, yeah, party lines.
Right, yeah.
Oh, that's triggering all kinds of past life memories.
Yeah, I really, I kept my teeth on those
because I learned a tremendous amount
and I got to meet a lot of people who years later
when I was researching to write this book,
I knew there were a whole bunch of things that I did
but I couldn't remember how I'd done them
because I walked away from it all.
So I had to go and kind of refresh my memory
and I came across the old hacking texts
that were written by people who I knew.
And what I discovered is I was digging into it
and researching it is that the people that I knew,
and I was the first one to get taken out of the game,
so to speak, there was a whole wave of busts
that happened about five years after me.
There was an operation called Operation Sun Devil
where the government did a sting
and raided 27 different homes at the same moment
and busted a lot of people and there were court cases
but that all happened like five years after I was busted.
So I found out years and years later
that these people that I was in Kahootz with
and hanging out with were literally the top hackers
of the era and some of them are infamous
and hacking lore.
So that was kind of fun to discover along the way.
And do you think there's something about that timing
that you were five years before that wave of busts?
You think that was in your favor in some way?
Stop you earlier rather than later?
It definitely was when it came to sentencing.
It was a light sentence.
It wasn't a light sentence in the sense
that I was a first-time offender
and I hadn't done any damage
and I hadn't stolen any data.
I had no intentions of doing corporate espionage
or anything like that.
It was something that I was just doing for the fun of it.
One of the papers called it a high-tech joy ride
which I think is the best description
of what I was doing.
It's like the keys are there
and the fancy automobile,
like I'm just going to take it for a spin.
There are a lot of computers
that I just would not have had access to
unless I later went on to college
and majored in information technologies
then I could have accessed these servers
but this was a way to do that for free
from the privacy of my own home.
But to answer your question,
I was really at the forefront
of this new wave of legislation.
The law that was passed in Seattle,
I was only the second person to be,
what do you say, tried under this law
and the first person received probation
and I received jail time along with probation
and 200 hours of community service
and some monetary fines as well.
But if I had been busted two or three years later
the outcome could have been a lot worse.
So the timing was really fortunate for me
and it also puts me in a pretty unusual position
of having been the first hacker to go to jail
for the crime of hacking in the world.
In fact, a year after I went to jail
was when they passed the Computer Crime and Fraud Act.
It was in 1986.
And that is still in place, I believe,
it was the template for computer prosecutions
and it made it a five-year prison sentence,
maximum penalty per offense and felony
for computer trespass in the first degree.
It's pretty wild actually.
If you think about the different kinds of crimes
you can commit, like you can bludgeon somebody
and break into their home, beat them over the head,
steal their computer, that's a gross misdemeanor.
But they were trying to try me for felony
computer trespass, which they didn't succeed in.
There were plea bargaining involved,
but they would not have been able to convict me
for first degree because they would have had to have proven
that I had gotten in with intent to commit other crimes
and they couldn't have proven that
because that wasn't the case.
But I had a good lawyer who went to bat for me
and got it reduced, but the prosecuting attorney
who was assigned to my case was the man
who co-authored the law that I was being tried with.
So he had a vested interest in a conviction
and a vested interest in a jail sentence
because that hadn't been handed out.
Other hackers had gone to jail before me
but not for computer crime
because it had never been defined.
So they were being charged for things like fraud
and that sort of thing, espionage in some cases.
But I was the first one to be convicted
of this new law in Washington.
And it's a strange little bit of my past.
Yeah, like a badge or some kind of honor of some kinds
and then being up against the guy
who co-authored the law itself
that would be extremely motivated to convict.
Yeah, he's kind of the nemesis through the book
because he's there pushing for this jail time.
And I'm like, what the heck?
It's like normally people would get hired at the companies
because they're like, oh, you exposed our weaknesses.
Can you show us how you did it?
And we'll put you to work.
That happened to a lot of hackers back then
but they were specifically tailoring the laws
to make that not possible
because they wanted convictions.
And in fact, the way the law was written in Washington
I think it's really weird
but if you broke into somebody's computer
you were committing a crime against them
but you were also, according to the law,
committing a crime against the state of Washington.
So when they brought in the detectives
or the authorities to try and catch me
which they eventually traced a call
and that was how they caught me,
they basically gave up the rights
to decide whether or not
there was going to be a prosecution.
They could choose not to prosecute
but the prosecutor still had a choice
of whether to charge me
and of course he would do that.
So it was a strange time when it came to the laws
and just the discrepancy between,
like when all was said and done
and there were loads and loads of newspaper articles
from this, like when it first hit the news
it was front page on all the papers
and nightly news was covering it.
It was surreal actually coming out of the courtroom
when I initially pled innocent
and later changed the plea
we were just buying some time for the court case
but when I came out of the courtroom
it was a wall of reporters and lights flashing
and I was a deer caught in the headlights
and it was just a bizarre thing
that they were very interested in
but when all was said and done at the end
it had kind of moved to the back of the A section
of the newspapers, it was no longer front page news
and they were just kind of doing a recap
and there was an article covering my story
with a picture of me saying a light jail term
for young hacker and summarizing the case
and then to the right of that on the same page
was another article that said killer of state man
given five years probation.
Killer of state.
State man, so a man from Washington state
killer of state man, so somebody from Washington
was, there was a bar room fight
and somebody got stabbed to death
and this guy got off with probation.
He had literally killed somebody
and did not serve a single day in jail
and I had gotten into computers, had not damaged them,
had not broken anything, had actually
in the case of these corporations
which I got into, I mean we didn't mention this
but the four companies that I was charged with infiltrating
were Microsoft, Boeing, Sunstrand and Kenworth Trucking.
They picked just the four biggest names.
They had my crib sheet as it was called
and all of my, I kept very good notes
of all the stuff that I was doing
which was not very intelligent
because I should have disposed of all of that
when I got the knock at the door.
So they could have charged me with a whole lot more
but they did that just to save themselves paperwork
and they picked the biggest, most striking name.
So yeah, but I'd gotten into these computers
and if anything I did them all a favor
because I wasn't a malicious hacker
and I went to jail for it
and this guy stabbed somebody to death
and got off with probation.
So I was like, there I was 19 at that point
and I just said the American justice system
is hopelessly wrecked
and I had no faith in American justice
after seeing those two articles
juxtaposed on the paper.
Yeah, it's hard to have a respect for a system
that continually makes a bigger deal
out of victimless crimes
and then turns rather blind eye
to the true victim full crimes.
Yeah, I was given a book by my dad
when I was 22 or 23 called The Emperor Wears No Clothes.
Ever heard of that?
For sure.
Yeah, it's just for those who haven't
it's basically telling the story
of the prohibition of marijuana
and how it came about
and who was behind that
and what the real reasons were.
And I read that book and I lost all faith.
Any remaining faith I had in American justice
was gone after reading that
because that was at a time
when they were just jailing people left and right
for victimless crimes.
You're consuming a plant made by God
and they're throwing you in jail for it
because some bigwig has decided that,
no, we can't have people having access to that
because they could fuel their homes
and clothe themselves and feed themselves
and heal themselves all with one plant.
So better suppress that.
And yeah, that was a big eye opener for me.
Yeah, there are probably still people in jail
for cannabis crimes or hemp crimes.
Yeah, well, they came out with three strikes
of your outlaw in a number of states.
So some people ended up with life in prison
and they're still there for a plant.
You know, it's just insane.
That's illegal in a great deal of places now.
Not all states of the U.S., but...
Yeah, you'd think with the change of the laws
they would free all those people.
Oh, I know, I know.
Yeah, that was another thing,
learning about the prison system
and that it was privatized
and that you could send somebody to Harvard
for cheaper than it cost to house them
for a year in a prison.
Like, hmm, somebody's making a lot of money off of prisons.
Maybe that's why they wanna throw people in jail
for victimless crimes.
Yeah, that's what it all speaks to is,
first of all, like a real engineered situation,
creating crime where there was no crime
and then that's just a ticker tape for,
is that the right expression?
Ticker tape or cash register tape
or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, that goes...
And it's nice and endless, right?
Because there's going to be a steady supply.
People continue to do things that are not actually wrong
because we internally know that.
And so, yeah, there's no shortage of customers,
let's say, for that business.
Yeah, I think crime rates go down
in the countries that decriminalize, you know.
I don't know, statistics off top of my head,
but I've heard that on many occasions.
I mean, it makes sense, you know,
if you give the addicts what they need,
then they're not gonna have to break into homes
and steal TVs, you know, to pay for their drug habits.
Exactly, yeah, I was in Colorado last year,
which is one of the original states that legalized.
And I was shocked, you could see for,
I swear, five miles driving,
you could see the sign of the business
and they would make it a monumental scale,
the cannabis business.
And that's almost most of the advertising on the highway
was a cannabis chain of one or the other, right?
Like, it's so big, it's massive.
But, you know, try to go through the border either way
with any amount of that and they've got you,
like in the border laws,
even though you drive it from one place to the other,
where it's like legal in both places, it's just madness.
Oh my gosh.
Oh, because you're crossing state lines with contraband.
In this case, like country lines,
US border kind of stuff.
When I think about it, North Dakota,
I don't think they actually legalized.
So yeah, that would be our border.
Well, I moved to Europe in 97
and I've been here pretty much ever since.
And so none of it was legalized when I left.
And so it's been interesting going back to the States
and seeing how it's changed, you know, in that time,
like during COVID, I went five years without going back.
And then I went back and I like a smoke, you know.
And so I went into these, you know,
what do you call them?
Dispensaries.
Dispensaries, yes.
And I was blown away.
It was like, this is not what it was like when I was young.
It's just like all this technology I'd never seen before.
Like things that do stuff
and I don't even know why you'd wanna do them.
And you know, it's just like, what happened?
It's surreal for me.
Yeah, yeah, it's massive explosions.
Become kind of like bougie almost.
You go into some of those stores,
I've only been in a few, but they're all like very
posh and
Oh yeah.
Super customer service and people coming in
and they're like, I'm just like, where's the green at?
Yeah, just like, I don't care what strain it is,
just give me a week.
Yeah, you get a menu that as long as you're on.
Yeah, yeah, it's like these nuances.
And oh, this one has, it's like,
it's like a, you know, a sommelier
or something, a wine connoisseur, you know.
It's like a hint of cherry and a bit of musk
in there.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh boy, but get off on a tangent there.
I could go, I could go for that one.
I was gonna ask you just like,
so your main motivation you said was the fun of it.
Can you unfold that?
Like, is it the adventure fun?
Is the frightening?
Yeah, well,
Go on scary rides.
It's the learning stuff.
It's, yeah, it's going on.
You know, it's the thrill of conquest
and like being somewhere you're not supposed to be.
And this idea of being able to control something
at a distance was, it felt like a superpower back then.
Like, I mean, just the first time I got online
and connected to a bulletin board,
some might not know what those are
that it basically like think of today's forums
where you have, you know, a website you go to
and then there's different topics
and you can post and other people can reply
and you can send messages to each other.
That's what a bulletin board was,
but it was in an individual's computer.
And so for most people it was just one phone line, right?
So you'd call up and only one person
could be on that computer at a time.
Later on they got multiple lines,
but you would log in and see if you had any messages
and check the forum to see what, you know,
what had been posted since you were there last.
And I just remember the first time I got on one of those,
it was like, you know, it was like mainlining, you know,
it was just crazy how exciting it was,
especially hearing that sound of the modems.
And then eventually I got to know other people
who had knowledge and I was able to learn things.
Like I said, that made it possible for me
to make calls for free.
And then it really became a social life for me
and I was through those party lines,
but also just direct contact with different hackers
that I knew who many of them were a lot more knowledgeable
than I was.
And I was really like open to learning.
I was curious.
I was gregarious and outgoing and humble.
And so they liked me and they took me under their wings.
I mean, information was the coin of the realm.
So if you knew stuff, you know, even if you were a jerk,
if you had a lot of knowledge, people respected you
and wanted to cozy up because of what they might get,
you know, in the way of information.
So yeah, it was a very interesting world
with a lot of unusual characters.
And when I started to meet them in person, you know,
they were anything but the, I mean,
some were the classic, you know, nerds
with the tape on the glasses and pocket protector,
but that was really the minority.
People came from all walks of life
and were different ages.
And yeah, it was the thing I love about hacking,
which, you know, when we look at the tenets
of the hacking ethic, it really mirrors
the truth or community of today, right?
It's a general distrust of authority.
It's a love of technology, decentralization
as a way of keeping power in the hands of the people
rather than, you know, everything funneling upward
to the nefarious fucktards that are running the show.
You know, we need, I mean, this is what all of these,
the encryption and all these different things
are so valuable for, you know,
but they're trying to do away with it,
with the CBDCs and Digital ID and all that
and go for the full-blown fascist boot
when it comes to technology.
So the hackers were the antithesis of that.
They were seeking to make the world a better place.
And it was the idea that life could be made better
through technology, if it wasn't corrupted or co-opted.
And so that idea of decentralization,
distrust and authority, information should be free.
Things that can be used for the betterment
of humanity or improvements in the world
shouldn't be patented.
They shouldn't be, you know,
something where somebody's holding the purse strings
on all of that and greed runs the show,
which is what we live in now.
So I think that's, you know,
lines up perfectly with the hacker ethic.
I mean, you know, with the truth or community
or for lack of a better term,
it's that's a term thrown around a lot,
but community is also not necessarily the best term
oftentimes, but it's the same ideas.
That's great.
Yeah, it's a kind of Robin Hood thing, right?
That, yeah.
Seeing the picture.
Yeah, Robin Hood, definitely taken from the rich,
giving to the poor.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Welcome to Trinity 4, Mike explained.
Hey Dave.
Welcome to Trinity 7, yeah.
Got to hang out with him recently here in Spain.
My friend, Alex Michael had an amazing party
that Dave was highly influential in bringing about.
And he's right there and partially wrong.
It's a seven, it's a five planet stellium in the seventh house.
So I always love the number seven.
So that's where the stellium seven comes from.
Nice, nice.
Very good.
Let's see, where should we go?
Yeah, so I was, just to say it out loud,
I'm sure I could sit and guess on my own,
but your motivation being the high tech joy ride
or that was the headline anyway.
What were other, like you think there's a whole range
of motivation like outright thieves
that just saw it as a way to go and get rich quick.
What are the range of motives that people?
Yeah, I mean, you've got everything from, you know,
amoral psychopathic types on ego trips,
which, you know, that's what they want you
to believe all the hackers are.
I mean, there was a concerted effort
to demonize hacking in the eyes of the public.
And it really started in 83
when the movie War Games came out.
That was where they presented this idea
that a young kid messing around on the computer
could accidentally trigger World War three
and only through luck was that averted, right?
And that was all propaganda to make, you know,
the keyboard warriors, these people who are interested
in tech and sharing information
and trying to gain the system
because they knew the system was corrupt, you know?
It's like they kept raising the prices on the phone,
you know, the phone calls.
And well, wait a minute, the infrastructure's already there.
Shouldn't the prices be coming down
as they recoup the investments?
Same thing when, you know, they made CDs.
All of a sudden, you know, CDs were $3, $4
more expensive than the vinyl.
But that only was the case for about, well,
the excuse was that the price of production
was much higher on the CDs
because it was a new technology.
But within a year or two,
the price came way down below that of vinyl.
So they should have lowered the price then,
but they never did.
They just kept raising prices and more.
So that gives birth to things like peer-to-peer networking
and file sharing.
That's when Napster came about, right?
Because people are like, these guys are,
they're not giving the money to the artists
and they're just putting in their pockets
and running away with it
and getting more and more power as a result.
So that gives rise to new technologies
and innovations that are wonderful
and have been game changers
for trying to wrestle the power back
into the hands of the common folk.
But it really is, like you said, Robin Hood.
But back to your question,
that it's the whole spectrum of people.
I mean, you've got, I was questionable
in my morality because I was, I was thieving.
I was stealing, I was a klepto when I was a teenager,
just like, I didn't have the money
to have the things I wanted.
So I could just take them and I would justify
and rationalize it in different ways.
And I talk about that extensively in the book.
The book is by no means a glorification
of illegal activity.
It's, it's, you know,
the, it's a very exciting read
because it's first person, me,
as I'm making these discoveries
and meeting these people and going on these adventures
and doing this crazy stuff that I was doing.
But the narration is adult me 30 years later,
40 years later, that is kind of looking back on it
with a sober, sober view and reflecting
on why I did the things that I did.
And also the kind of the catharsis is the catharsis
that came about as a result of the things that happened
to me where I realized that I didn't want
to do those things any longer.
And not because I was afraid of the consequences,
but because I had reached a, you know,
a higher degree of morality in my life.
So I think it's a great read for teenagers in that respect
because, because they, you know,
they might identify with the kinds of things
that I was going through in school
and the troubles that I had.
And, you know, so many children now
are living on their computers.
I mean, the gamer world,
when we look at the numbers on truth videos,
you know, it's thousands of views,
maybe something gets up to tens of thousands
or 100,000, but when you look at the gaming community,
there's hundreds of millions of people
that are playing these games constantly
and they're in touch with each other
through Discord and through different platforms.
And that's kind of how I was living back in 1982
and three and four and five when I finally got busted.
So it really was a head of the game
when it came to the kind of world we're in now.
That's awesome.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna give my son a copy for Christmas.
By the way, this is-
It makes a great Christmas present.
Yeah, exactly.
This is the direct link to amazon.com in the chat here
to the book and I've got it up on the screen as well.
So if you haven't seen the book before,
I liked the cover a lot actually.
It was fun to do it with a thumbnail too.
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of work went into that
and there's little hidden stuff in there as well
for people who like Easter eggs
so on the front and the back cover.
Oh, for people who like Easter eggs.
Oh, so there's some interesting details in there.
Yeah, let's see if we can find anything.
Nothing too exotic.
Okay, do you spell words in these like-
Yeah, there's two of them right there.
Okay, all right, let me see.
Yeah, there's-
Right, upper left, there's the word sys test
and then UETP, which is the login and password
for the server that I've gotten into at Microsoft.
Oh, that is a lot of detail.
And then it says the sprinter there right in the middle,
which was my handle as a hacker.
Okay, okay, that's the one word I actually can see.
Yeah, yeah, nice other code there.
There's stuff on the back cover as well.
Okay, neat.
Yeah, so that would be fun to get a hard copy of.
If you click on the go down, no further down,
not on the screen below, there's two.
There's a second, you can click on the back cover.
Oh, you can?
Yeah, no, no, right.
Where it says read sample on the left, just above that.
Oh, right, there's the back cover, nice.
And that is, that's a lot of fun
because Gary McKinnon, he's got a blurb there
and he was one of the most famous hackers in the world
for about a decade.
He was in the UK and got busted for breaking the Pentagon
and NASA and the Department of Defense as well.
He got into something like 90 computers
and they were trying to extradite him
for a number of years and didn't succeed, fortunately.
Theresa May, it was, I think the prime minister in the UK
at the time was, she ratified the extradition treaty
that the UK had with the US and basically made it
so that they wouldn't be able to pull him out of the country.
And yeah, he showed up on my channel
and made a comment on one of my videos
and I recognized his name and I couldn't believe it
and I thought, is he here because he knows
about the hacking stuff or is he here for my channel
and he didn't know about the hacking
and I had done a Kickstarter campaign a few years back
trying to drum up some money for editing
and that sort of thing with the book.
And I thought maybe he had seen the promotional video
that I had made, which was just a little three minute
clip and he hadn't, he didn't know anything about my past.
So we ended up having conversations
and recorded several hours of conversation
and I posted the first hour on my channel.
But that was, it was just a fun synchronicity
that led to a really nice blurb on the back cover.
He wrote the forward to the book as well.
Okay, oh, fun, yeah.
So, and that sounds like the only contact you've had
with that old community of yours then.
Is that true?
It's interesting, I did a launch party
on the 17th of October, the 40 year anniversary for the book
and literally the night that I was gonna do that
I had sent a few days before an email
to an old email address that I thought was defunct
to the guy who was basically my best hacking buddy
during that time.
And I hadn't had any contact with him for years
and he responded.
And I was like, oh, I send him the link to the book
and the little video clip, which we could play
at the end for people who'd like to see it.
Oh, sure.
And yeah, so we had, he asked me, he's like,
he's like, you didn't use my name, did you?
You're still paranoid after all these years.
But yeah, so that was kind of funny that he showed up
on my radar, literally on the 40 year anniversary
of my bust, so.
Amazing.
For the odds.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Oh, fantastic, yeah, definitely recommend the book.
It's very nicely written, it's easy to read,
easy to listen to, also I had some of it just playing
in my series.
Thank you.
Yeah, on that launch party, I read the first chapter aloud
and someone said that I had a very,
what was it, a creamy smooth voice with excellent diction.
Nice.
I was like, okay, that's a good compliment.
But I really wrote it to be a page turner.
I wanted it to have a good pace and flow.
Chapters are short, so it's like you kind of want
to keep reading it.
And I've had at least half a dozen authors have read it
and I've gotten really good reviews from all of them.
So I feel good about the job I did.
There was 40 years in the process that ought to be good.
I rewrote it like twice, so it's in its third version.
Okay, yeah, it didn't seem like AI wrote that book.
I don't want to hold it against anyone
that's doing that these days, but if I discover
a book's been written by AI, I lose interest pretty quick.
I don't want to be mean about it,
but I don't want to spend my time
consuming something that a machine made.
Yeah, I crafted every sentence.
Amazing, amazing.
And had it edited by a real editor
who wasn't just plugging it into Grammarly
or something like that.
I had two fails.
I had a failed editor and a failed proofreader
that I was like, they're giving me more work
because now I've got to go line by line
and see what they've changed that isn't appropriate
or what they've missed.
So I was just, but it cost me a pretty penny
in the end to have it all done professionally.
So I'm far from break even at this point.
Right, right.
It is a hero's journey to write and publish,
write, edit, proofread and publish.
I know the first edition, I kind of rushed it out
for my first in Narkapokko in 2020
and it was full of typoism.
All the first responses that I got is like,
oh, this typo and that typo
and it was just hanging my head like this.
And yeah, I think I went through three editors,
had to fire three editors
and like even the so-called publisher is long gone
even though his logo is still on my book.
Here, he never wanted to see me again.
I didn't fire him, he fired me for unknown reasons.
And yeah, it is, there were days where I thought
it would be absolutely impossible
like and many, many, many days in a row.
Oh, impossible, oh, still impossible,
not gonna break through.
And there were, you know, problems with the art
and there was problems with the proofreaders
and there was problems with the editors
and at a time I was really like,
oh, I was just really bothered by all of these people
that were making such a mess of things.
And then there came a really empowering moment
where I said, you know what, I did it.
All those bad things, I did it.
They wouldn't do anything if I hadn't
have started this whole idea
and decided to write a book.
Oh man, I had a book.
So did you self publish in the end or did you?
Through Amazon and yeah, like technically it's this
Woodridge, is it Woodridge?
Woodridge, I don't know.
He won't talk to me anymore.
So he just put his logo on here and we left it for the time.
Yeah, it's really like giving birth, you know,
to, I mean, the work involved,
there were a number of times in the few years
leading up to it, I finally, it was just like,
I did a major push and I'm like, I'm doing this.
And I shot myself in the foot in the sense
that I didn't do all of the footwork for promotion.
You know, this is like as a self publish author,
that's like the most important thing of all
is that you're priming the pump
and trickling out the information
so that when it's ready to go, people jump on it
and they read it and they review it
and that's how you get the algorithms working
in your favor and that, you know,
improves your chances of having a best seller.
And I, you know, the writing fine,
all that process, right up to the publishing
but the promotional side of things is just not my,
it's not my thing.
I'm not like, even for chiropractic,
like I have a website and everything is internal referral
and people just come to me.
I never like go out and promote it, you know,
trying to get people in.
And so interviews like this is how I reach people,
but it's, you know, we'll see how it goes.
I think it'll be a sleeper hit.
At some point it'll find the right audience
and eventually maybe even be a movie.
Most of the people who've heard the story have said it,
it should be a movie because it's kind of like,
catch me if you can a little bit
as far as the vibe and, you know,
all the high jinx and everything.
So I think it would be very suitable for the big screen.
And basically the book is already a screenplay
if you just take it scene by scene.
So that's the next step, audio book
and then screenplay and who knows,
maybe I'll have a retirement plan after all.
Yeah, that would be awesome.
Definitely, audio book that was equally,
I jumped on that last year
and I just made a mess of it.
It mangled it and I have to go back to the drawing board
on that one.
Yeah, I need to look into that now.
And I have, you know, the potential
to have access to Alex's studio
so I can get the, you know, top notch sound,
but there's, it's a learning curve,
I'm sure with that as well.
And so he's convinced it's gonna take me a month.
And I'm like, no, it's gonna take a week.
I was like, we'll bet, shake on it.
Right, right.
Yeah, the actual read wasn't too bad.
It's the editing for spacing
and all of that kind of thing.
And then, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what, I'll have to get back to that.
So you said you're about halfway in.
Have you had any favorite parts
or epiphanies or anything that stood out?
I just like the movement overall.
Like you said, it's very action packed.
Every chapter leaves you wanting to know
what's gonna happen in the next chapter.
I like the parts just getting into your head and heart
as a younger person and being willing to share
where you were at, the fragility of,
not to say you were fragile,
but the vulnerability or, you know,
however you describe that
and watching how do people find their way?
How do children who maybe are not so connected
and have that, you didn't use the word,
like shy or anything like that.
But I like the unfoldment of you as a human being
that we could see that.
Thank you, yeah.
I had an unusual upbringing.
So, you know, my parents were very alternative hippies
and into meditation and Eastern mysticism
and my stepfather owned a health food store.
He was part of a collective of people
that owned a health food store called Solar Winds.
And yeah, so it's an interesting story
in that respect also.
I actually cut about a hundred pages out of the book
on my final edit.
It's still 370, which is a long book,
but everyone who's read it says it reads really quick
so it doesn't feel as long as it is,
but it was a lot longer.
And I wrote it like with all of the testing the matrix.
Oh, it's like, it's another YouTube channel.
Okay, I have a backup YouTube channel that I never use
and I saw that and I'm like,
why does somebody accessing my account?
And it was something that I had written.
I was joking on what they,
telling a joke about what they said before,
but yeah, so I forgot what I was talking about.
Just the evolution of, what was your last point there,
the evolution of your own personhood
and growing up and.
Yeah, well, it's interesting.
It's called The Hacker Prince
and now I'm talking with you on the King Hero's podcast
because I wouldn't say I've come into my kinghood yet,
but maybe at some point, it's a,
I no longer feel like a prince.
There's a, I mean, there's word play in the title,
obviously you know that as you've gotten into the story.
I don't wanna give it away, but yeah, it's interesting to,
like I said, it feels like another lifetime,
you know, that chapter of my life
and it's so different from what I'm doing now
and the kinds of things we talked about
in the last conversation, you know,
with regards to my research and my YouTube channel
and all that, it's couldn't be more different,
but in a sense it's similar, you know,
because it's like, I went from hacking computers
to hacking reality, I suppose.
Yeah, let's get out.
Never got tired of asking unconventional questions
and trying to pull back the veil
on things you're not supposed to look at.
Nice, nice, I love that.
And that's what, I do a lot of work with people
on sacred purpose and demystifying that,
you know, some people might look on the surface
and say, it was your sacred purpose to be a hacker.
It's like, what's the deeper thread there
that you've been revealing
that is also common to your life right now,
just getting deeper into truths?
And so it's not that one thing is going to be the purpose,
it's the thread that goes throughout,
you know, your motive,
the reason what motivates you behind it
is more of that stuff.
Yeah, what I've found in my life
is that a lot of times when things do happen,
you draw conclusions about what the reasons are
or what the meaning of it is.
And I find that it's almost always wrong,
the conclusions that I've drawn.
So there are things that happen along the way
and things that you learn
that maybe you have to learn those things
in order to unlearn them later
or to realize that those are falsehoods,
but there are things that maybe at one point
you championed and thought were the truth
and that's happened to me over and over again.
So it's actually freeing getting the point
where you're perfectly okay saying, I don't know,
but I'm curious and I'd like to know,
but understanding that the truth is a slippery thing
that you might not be able to pin down ever ultimately,
but you can get closer to it by starting
to eliminate falsehoods.
Exactly, process of elimination.
Sacred purpose is the same way, by the way.
And yeah, that I don't know.
It can be really uncommon.
I'd say I'd gravitate much more recently,
especially to people that are willing to say that.
And when people don't know,
there is a propensity,
especially I find in the truth world to just,
and I'll say it affectionately,
I said it yesterday again, make shit up, right?
When they don't know,
they put their mind like a computer to work
and they're connecting dots
and they don't know they're making dots
and there's assumptions behind things
that they just consider to be truth to move forward with
and they're based on false assumptions.
So it's, and the end product can make a lot of sense, right?
Oh, that sounds logical,
but it just has no basis in reality at all.
Yeah, and they get caught up in their own narratives
and then their ego gets wrapped up
into whatever that narrative is.
And then they go on defense and on attack.
And yeah, it's interesting to see
how the personalities play out in the truth or sphere,
but what I'm really grateful for
and is like the people that I'm in contact with now,
having spoken at a bunch of events
and made friends with a lot of people
who I was admiring from a distance through podcasts
and presentations and is all of the people
that I have the most respect for
are willing to admit when they're wrong,
willing to admit when they don't know,
but are sticklers for really digging into things
before making claims about them
and actual adhears to the scientific method as well,
like not just paying it lip service
but really following it in a pedantic way.
It's amazing because they're so alternative
in their thinking and most of what they believe
is not in alignment with the mainstream beliefs
or narratives on just about anything,
but these people are experts in their field,
they're specialists, they're incredible minds
and intellectuals and wonderful people,
but they're also humble and like I said,
willing to say I don't know when they don't
and it's as opposed to what you were describing
and just making shit up coming up with a theory tale
and then thinking it's fact.
Yeah, and getting attached to it with their ego
and then next level is always
they got attached to it financially
that somehow whether it's products
or they just don't wanna admit that
if you go back in their streams,
it does not write anymore
or because they've been monetizing
and all that kind of thing.
So, and I'm not against it, I love entrepreneurs,
I am one myself, I come from my parents
who were self-made people in that respect.
So, but there comes times where
you're gonna have to sacrifice,
this is actually one of my favorite questions
that I'll ask you right now is
what did you feel was true
that maybe has evolved in the last six years
in particular?
What were any assumptions that you had moving forward
about our reality, you know,
you could be in the tech world
or the ancient history world that you're very versed in,
things that you were putting forth as true
that you realized just don't have a base?
Oh, wow.
Well, I mentioned The Emperor Wears No Clothes,
I read that at 23.
So that kind of woke me up to the power structures.
And then another book the same year
was Behold a Pale Horse by William Cooper.
So he was laying out the power structures,
the secret societies, things like MKUltra,
you know, all the different projects of different sorts
that have now been declassified.
So we know that they existed,
it wasn't just a conspiracy theory of one sort or another.
So I kind of woke up to all that stuff 35 years ago now.
So my truth or journey has been long.
And then, you know, 9-11 came around,
I saw through that right off the bat,
you know, even before like loose change
and these other things came out,
I just, I knew there was something rotten in Denmark.
And then, you know, Earth shape and being,
digging into NASA and space agency fakery in general
and questioning the actual shape of the Earth,
that's going back 10 years now.
And that is a massive rabbit hole unto itself
that touches on every other rabbit hole.
I call it the skeleton key of conspiracy theories
because you don't have to know what shape it is
to know what shape it isn't.
And the deeper you go into that,
the more it starts to put the pieces of the puzzle together
and things that don't seem to be related suddenly are
and it makes sense.
It's like the tapestry starts to fill in.
And then COVID with, you know, virology,
I suspected things about the jabs and all that stuff,
but I never really contemplated the idea
that the entire ology was based on pseudoscience.
And now it's pretty clear that that's the case,
that all of the supposed seminal studies
that were proving the existence of the pathogen
are hopelessly flawed in their methodology
and their conclusions.
And there's a whole bunch of really amazing people
that have exposed that thoroughly,
but not that it's reached,
well, they were the most heavily censored people
through those COVID years.
So it's not surprising that it hasn't reached the level
of the zeitgeist when it comes to that understanding
because that's absolutely one of the biggest lies there is.
And it's the fear porn of keeping everyone worried
about the next pathogen is a huge one.
So yeah, those are the biggies.
And then about eight years ago getting onto these topics
of things like hidden history and ancient civilizations,
not from an ancient aliens perspective or the Gaia network,
but like looking into things
like the former existence of tardary, star forts,
mud floods, world's fairs, orphan trains, baby incubators.
I mean, all kinds of wild stuff,
the zeppelins that were everywhere, but are now not,
that these are things that have a ton of evidence
that each one of those things I just mentioned
is a narrative destroyer in and of itself.
And then when you really dig into them,
instead of just hand wave dismissing them,
you find that they all actually dovetail
and they create this very cohesive tapestry
of a past that's completely different
from what we were taught.
And that led me to start questioning
the nature of our physical reality,
because if they can lie to us about something as big
as the earth itself and something like virology,
then what else are they lying to us about?
And so these other rabbit holes start to clue you in
to what that what else is.
And then that's what led to my investigations
into geology because all of a sudden now
we've got these possibilities of like, wow,
maybe there were once titanic trees or titanic beings
or the things that we were taught about how stone forms
and comes about are maybe not necessarily accurate
and petrification might not take millions of years
like we were taught, but could actually happen
in a very short amount of time.
And is there any evidence for that?
And it turns out that there's a ton of evidence
that contradicts mainstream narratives
when it comes to geology.
So that's kind of become my forte is covering that stuff
and my investigations into those things,
which interestingly enough are not just theory tales,
but they are extremely rooted in empiricism
and my attempts to the best of my knowledge
to follow the scientific method.
And yeah, so that was a long answer,
but I know it's good time.
Yeah, I like that theory tales too, by the way.
And this is Mike's channel
if you want to go over and sub to him.
And I was curious, like, is there any,
are there any of the rabbit holes, theories, anything
like within the considered within the truth or world
that have become bunk to you
over maybe particularly the last six months?
Hmm.
Well, pretty much anything that's dealing with like space
or aliens or that kind of stuff,
I have a high degree of skepticism
towards anything that has to do with what's happening
out there and the claims that are made by any agency,
I don't have any trust in.
Is there a big truth or contingent on the aliens side?
And I'm just totally not seeing it.
Well, I mean, when you look at, say,
Flat Earthers versus ancient aliens,
I mean, what is it, a hundred to one or something?
You know, that's mainstream alternative.
People like Graham Hancock are mainstream alternative.
You know, they're getting millions in abuse,
whereas the people who I consider the real truthers
are lucky to get thousands.
Yeah, yeah.
And they're often shadow banned.
Their channels aren't necessarily taken down,
but you can just see that there's no organic growth.
I mean, that's the case with my channel
and has been for a long time now.
I shot up to 20,000 in about 18 months
and it's taken me five and a half years
to get another 12,000.
And YouTube does not show my material
to any new people at all.
I only reach about one tenth of my audience
and I could compare the statistics from the first two years
to what has happened over the last couple of years.
And the content that I'm producing now
is more comprehensive.
It's far better organized.
It's visually better appealing.
I'm much better at delivering the information
in a more concise way, more rapidly.
So all of that should lead to a faster growth
and it's like, I'll get a few subs
and then YouTube will siphon off a few.
So it's not that I'm looking to grow the channel
or I want more subs,
it's that I just want that information to reach new ears.
I didn't wanna create like a cult of personality
where I've got my groupies,
the people who love everything I do.
I mean, I have some incredible people
who've been following my work for years
that I'm very appreciative of
and they've praised a lot of what I've done
and I'm thankful for that
because it motivates you
because clearly finances are not a motivation.
Yeah, that's the one.
Is it? Yeah, do you wanna play that?
Sure, go full screen with it.
Okay, and are you hearing the sound just for that?
Yeah.
A few seconds?
Okay, so I heard that.
Okay, I'll blow that up here.
All right.
In February 1985, an 18-year-old Kirkland, Washington man
pled guilty to four counts of computer trespass.
The defendant was accused of gaining illegal access
to four large Seattle area firms.
Would you state your name, please?
My name is Mike Wilkerson.
The way it's set up is you dial in on one line
and it calls you back on another
so that you can't get supposed to be the ultimate security.
What you do is you break into Cosmos
and you find out all of the phone numbers
that that company owns
and you call until you find the two
that are hooked up to data
and then you get the callback modem
and you set a call forwarding on that line
so it call forwards to your phone number.
That takes a lot of work,
but for a real healer,
you just don't think you're gonna get caught.
You ask any hacker out there that hasn't been caught yet,
if he thinks he's gonna get caught,
he'll tell you now.
And if they tell you yes,
it's because somebody close to them
just recently got busted
and they have a feeling of being watched.
Whether you're curious about the 80s hacking scene
and some of its most infamous characters,
or if you care to indulge in a bit of nostalgia
for the early days of computing,
or if you just simply like to kick back
with a light-hearted coming-of-age tale,
then this book is for you.
Ta-da!
Very nice video.
Grandios.
You've got hackers from Heaven,
so there's a longer video here.
I'll grab this link for people as well
so they can watch this one.
Oh yeah, that's that conversation I had
with Gary McKinnon.
That's an interesting conversation.
We take up some other topics like Julian Assange,
and yeah, that's a good one
for people who are interested in hacking.
Because we had never spoken before,
and at the very beginning of the call,
I was just like, you know,
I've got an unusual story you haven't heard.
Everyone knows your story,
because it was plastered all over the papers for a decade.
And I'll bet people would be interested in hearing this,
so he was like, yeah, let's record it.
But that footage,
I didn't mention this,
but the green footage of me,
I was 19 at the time that was filmed,
and that was part of my plea bargaining agreement
was that I agreed to conduct an interview
with the law enforcement,
the heads of security from the companies I'd infiltrated,
and there were, I think the FBI
and the Secret Service were there as well.
There were at least two of the letter agencies.
So there was like 12 of us in this room,
and they recorded me for like two hours.
And I had never seen that footage,
and I didn't know it still existed,
but about five years ago,
I reached out to the prosecuting attorney,
and I hadn't had any contact with him in 35 years,
and he was absolutely thrilled to hear from me,
because he had always wondered what happened, you know?
Because I didn't conduct any interviews,
I never wrote a book,
and I never showed up on the radar again.
I wasn't in hiding, I just wasn't in tech, you know?
And also the newspaper articles,
when I was busted in 1985,
went to jail in 1986,
digitization of newspapers didn't begin until 1989.
Everything was microfiche up until that point.
So you could go to the library,
and if you knew the date,
you could find articles,
but you had to know what you were looking for.
And so like it doesn't,
until I started trickling out information,
it didn't even show up on Google searches.
There was almost nothing on the internet about it,
even though I was the first, you know,
to go to jail for that crime.
So I reached out to him,
and he was just blown away.
And so we ended up having these long email exchanges.
He had Parkinson's,
which had damaged his vocal box,
so he wasn't able to do like a video call with me.
But we started having these exchanges,
and he said, hey, you remember that interview you did?
I was like, yeah.
There was a whole chapter in my book about it, you know?
And he's like, I think I might still have that cassette.
And so he went looking at his archives,
and it was on beta.
It was that long ago.
It wasn't on DHS.
And so he managed to digitize it,
and most of it was corrupted,
but he got about 15 minutes of it.
And that green, it looks like it's a filter or something.
That's just the way it came out from the damaged video.
So it's just like perfect,
because it's got that matrixy color and look to it.
But I had never seen that footage,
and he sent it to me 35 years later.
He sends me a link,
and I download the file,
and I was like, I couldn't believe it.
And that clip that I played there,
they asked me a very tough question there.
They're asking me,
how would you bypass this particular form of security?
And if you'd asked me that now,
I wouldn't have had a clue, you know?
But I just like, you know, I just laid it out there,
and you hear the guy,
it was either the Secret Service guy or the FBI guy,
after I finished saying what I said,
he chuckles because he realizes that what I said
actually would have worked.
Which is exactly why they had me in that room in the first place there.
They wanted to use the whole thing for training purposes,
for law enforcement.
Yeah, so that was just a real boon,
and he and I ended up being friends,
which is funny because like I said,
he's like the nemesis through the first two thirds of the book.
Right, right.
Oh, so fun.
Yeah, I caught that chuckle.
That was interesting.
Let's see, I'd like to ask you
at least a few more questions if you still have time.
Sure.
And there was one, I don't want to let this go,
so maybe I will go right to it.
The same lady's asking about your opinion on CBDCs
and could they be hacked?
Anything can be hacked.
And the problem, I mean, this is the thing,
there was a guy named Robert Steele,
he passed away a few years back.
He was a CIA agent,
and he once described hackers as the minute men
of the digital era, you know,
like Paul Revere and his ride, you know,
the red coats are coming, the red coats are coming.
The minute men were the ones that could be ready
in a minute to defend the country
against some unexpected attack.
Okay.
And so he saw them as a beneficial force.
And I think as we enter into this increasingly totalitarian
digital era, it may be, you know, the,
I don't know, the weaponized autists
or the, you know, the true hackers,
computer geniuses that save us in some way
from this seemingly unavoidable conclusion
that is, you know, rolling out.
Like, we keep talking about waking people up
and what's it going to take, you know,
and we've just got to stand up,
but, you know, the power structures that are in place
are, you know, unfathomable.
So how are the little guys with their sticks
and, you know, pitchforks or whatever
going to, you know, I mean,
well, take a page from the Nepal playbook,
obviously it can be done, right?
But in a place like the U.S.
where there's so much advanced weaponry
and everything, it's not like, you know,
overthrowing the government of a third world nation.
Like, how is that going to happen?
How does the revolution happen without
just incredible amounts of bloodshed?
Well, one truly genius hacker
could have an incredible impact on a whole lot of things
for positive or negative.
But ultimately, I think that there could be
positives that come about from people
that have that kind of knowledge.
That said, I would never, in a million years,
be a hacker in today's world because
it is so easy to get caught.
And in acquiring the skills necessary
to do whatever you would want to do,
you're probably going to show up on their radar
anyway because you're going to make mistakes
along the way that are going to make them aware of you.
So I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into hacking.
White hat hacking, yes, because you can...
Like, this is the thing.
If I had known how things were going to go
10 or 15 or 20 years later,
I would have stuck with tech probably
because I did like computers,
but I didn't want to spend my life in front of one.
But now they have bug bounties
where it's like you're literally brought in
as a white hat hacker trying to crack systems
and if you find a major flaw,
you get a lot of money for it.
Like, I know the son of a woman I know,
or Cammie Nodell, Bob Nodell's wife from Globusters.
Her son is a hacker.
He got busted for cracking Fortnite
and giving away like new skins or something to people
that was like in a coming update.
So he got busted for that.
She sent me an article that was in Forbes magazine
about him, you know.
Well, he was last year at...
I can't remember what they call it,
but it's basically like it's not DEF CON,
but it's some big event where they're doing
like white hat hacking.
He took third place.
He got like 75 grand in a weekend.
You know, so that...
There's a lot of money to be made
for people who have incredibly deep knowledge
about these things.
So...
But I...
Yeah, I...
I walked away from it, so...
I hear you. I hear you.
And so would you say the scale of hacking
is exponentially
accurate to like the scale of technology now?
Did it...
Yeah, I mean, any system has the ability
to be, you know, tinkered with
or hacked or, you know, thwarted.
So...
It's so much more complicated now
because you have
not just the complexity of computers today,
but you have all the legacy
computers from before,
because there's still lots of old technology
out there that's online that's running things,
you know.
So you have to have such a vast amount of knowledge
and programming skills
and there are all these different
tools that are used by that community
for, you know,
hacking in different ways.
And it's...
It's a...
The amount of knowledge you need
to be able to do it
and not get caught if you're doing
illegal things is
not even...
It's not even something to consider really.
I think
the game is lost before you've begun
if you take that route.
Right, right.
And so would you say there's a lot
more people doing it
or much fewer?
Oh, I think that... Well, just in general
there's so many more people using
technology in so many different ways now
than back then.
And there's a lot more white hat
hackers. And then you got the gray hats
and, you know, the black hats.
But
like when it comes to DEF CON
just to give you some numbers...
Oh, right.
That's like 75,000
people
in Las Vegas every year
for a hacking convention.
Oh, I hope you get a spot.
And the funny thing about that
those conventions is they actually had
their origin in the
meetups that I was having with
hackers on the east coast.
They were called hack cons
hacking conventions.
They weren't conventions at all.
It was just a bunch of guys getting together
in an apartment or a house
and hanging out
and then going out on the town
for hijinks.
I went once to
Margate, New Jersey
and we were being
rambunctious on
the Atlantic City Boardwalk
and trying to get into casinos
and just doing silly stuff.
And so
those were the actual
seeds that
became DEF CON.
Those hack cons.
So I would
think if any of the people
in charge of the event read my book
they'll want me as a speaker there.
So I have to wait
until January to apply, but
I was too late last year.
Okay, okay.
That's really my target audience
like the Truth or Community
my own channel.
I've done several interviews now
talking about this stuff
and it hasn't necessarily resulted
in book sales.
It doesn't sound
well, I mean I've sold some
but if I were to
reach that kind of group
I'm sure it would start
to take off more because that's really the demographic
of people who would be most
interested in this. But it's not a tech
book for people who are like
it said in the thing for
technophiles and technophobes alike.
It's not at some
high level with the tech that people
are just going to like eyes glaze over
and tune out. No, I was really pleased
with that. It's extremely approachable
and written in a kind of like
you're having a conversation with
the narrator so yeah
I really like it.
There was a thing
that I heard Dan Brown
was being interviewed one time
and they were asking like
how do you do this? You know he's written so many best
sellers and they're just incredible page
turns. I read four or five
of his books and it's like
you can practically read the book in a single
sitting you know because they're
they're it's not
some high level pros but
you know it's engaging and it makes
you want to know what's going to happen next in the
story. And so they were asking
him how do you do that? And he said
it's very simple
I sit down
to write and when I do
I envision that there's another person
that's across the table from me
and I'm going to tell them a story
and I want that story to be so engaging
that they don't want to get up from the
table until they've heard it to the end
and I thought that's a good
way to do it you know because
I'm not I'm not writing Shakespeare here
so might as well make it engaging
and fun so that was
that was a good inspiration. Yeah if
you can write like people talk then
then you can easily engage them
and you're not trying to be over
their head and sound so smart
so they can think you're so great
that's that's really not how to
reach people
at all yeah yeah
that's beautiful
so I'm curious
you talked about the catharsis of
writing the book if these are maybe
you know what I want to make one one comment
quickly just about
you're saying how
just
backtracking a little bit that
the hackers might end up
being the
you didn't use the word heroes
it's a better word not saviors
but yeah they might be showing up for us
and in some poignant moments
and it reminds me of the movie I believe it was
Endgame one of the Avengers
I didn't really see much of any of all
of that but for some reason I saw that movie
and and do you remember
if I'm correct there was the character
I can't remember is it brute
or like grotes or
something like that
Groot thank you
Tree guy
and then so the whole time along
he's got parents that are going like
get off that phone get off that game
always kind of writing him and he's got
his head in the technology
and then he is a saver of the
day at the end he comes
to life and uses his skills
and assists
in the journey and nature
wins out over technology
oh interesting
yeah the symbolism
of his character exactly or his superpower
yeah
yeah yeah really fun
yeah so that's sort of
baked into the story
a little bit there
well the hackers from heaven
title for that interview
that you posted the link to
that comes from
the judge
was contacted by a man
who was the founder
of the national coalition for
children's justice
and he saw me on television
after my arraignment and
he got the idea
that wow maybe
maybe we could
utilize his hacking skills
because he had this idea
of creating a network for tracking
missing children because there was
no national network
and if children were taken
across state lines there was
no follow up because there wasn't
interstate cooperation
and the people who were abducting
children knew this
and so they just like
grabbed kids close to the border
and they were gone
and then
the extent of what the government seemed to be
trying to do to solve the problem
which is still huge to this day
I mean if you do
a google search for how many kids go
missing just in the united states alone
it's
mind boggling
and
they were
the extent of what
they were doing was basically putting pictures on milk cartons
which was really just a
trauma based mind control thing
in my opinion where kids are starting their breakfast
with like oh there's another child
that went missing
and so
I don't think those milk cartons
saved a whole lot of kids
but that was the idea
good point
but the thing was
that
he didn't have the funds to
hire some corporation
and so he got the idea that maybe
kids who'd run a muck of the law
that were generally
good but
made some bad choices
might be utilized
for
for good
instead of bad
so he got this idea
he called it the hackers from heaven
program that's where that title came
from
so
I met with a couple of my hacking friends
and we actually went to Vermont
and met with him and his family
and toured the foundation
and stayed in their log cabin
it was a pretty amazing
experience
and so that
led to some inroads
but it didn't ultimately lead to
some nationwide network
that he had originally dreamed of
and he knew
early on that the reason for that
is still the reason
as we know from Epstein
and all the
all the revelations in the last 20 years
is that
it goes up to the highest corridors of power
so it's
that's their currency
humans
so
I think
ultimately
it may be something like Ready Player One
or Endgame
where
people with these kinds of skills
they come out of the woodwork
and they stop
really really bad things from happening
it's a dream I have a dream
I also have a dream that's the king hero dream
if there's some kind of beacon
to pull them out
from could be
one of the shadows of the Alchemist archetype
is hiding the superpowers
using the superpowers to hide the superpowers
and it's like calling all kings
well it's interesting
if you think about Lord of the Rings
you've got this
kind of technological takeover
Sauron and Saurumon
are basically destroying the realm
in order to create
this machine that can't be beaten
to enslave all of
humanity and all the species
really and if you think
about the people running the show
that's kind of who they are
I see them as dark wizards
that
have convinced humanity that magic isn't real
and so that renders them muggles
because they no longer believe in magic
and they don't have any idea
how much power they have
inside of them and that they've got
that spark of the creator within them
and that's what they're doing
their best to try and suppress
in all of us
and so
I think it's interesting
there must be white wizards
there must be demons
and there must be angels
but why don't we hear from them
why don't we see them
and I think it's kind of like
the prime directive in Star Trek
where they're following the rules
which are the rules of engagement
which is that you don't interfere
in a way that would affect
the natural evolution and growth of the individual
but maybe you
taps on the shoulder
or little synchronicities
or save their life
in some miraculous way
but
ultimately they're not there going
hey here we are, we're the good guys
come fight with us
they're behind the scenes
doing something, so the demons are out
in the open, they're showing their cards
and Satan worship
is very alive and well
and is front page
and center when it comes to media
so
we know that the evil forces
exist, we're the good ones
and I think it's interesting
why I brought up Lord of the Rings
is because you've got Gandalf
but then there's another wizard whose name I forgot
and he's just like this goofy little
troll guy that's out in the forest
friends with all the animals
and he's one of the most
powerful wizards of all
and I think that may be kind of what's happening
is that there are people who are maintaining
the balance and keeping
the spark alive
that are
they might be in a hut in the rainforest somewhere
but they're this incredibly powerful being
and
ultimately maybe we all have
the potential
to become like that if we tap in
and
apply ourselves to
learning more
nice and then the collective
my dream is that if there's a
critical mass number of people
who just go into
their lane
and slave to purpose
don't slave to a system anymore
slave to your purpose, slave to the divine
do that work
when you're called do the work
whatever it is
and if enough of us were doing that
it doesn't have to be everybody
then I think that will polarize
and you know greater
probably greater divide but we've already
seen that there's no turning back
from there
and then yeah I mean
to me that's the definition of uncontrollable
right
that you have a higher
yeah and this is where
finding the others is so crucial
because so many people who start to
awaken to things are isolated
and we talked before
about losing family members
you know are not losing but losing
relationships with family members
because we have beliefs that
challenge them in a way that triggers
cognitive dissonance and instead
of having that intellectual maturity
if this person believes different from I do
maybe they have a different religion than I have
whatever but back when I was young
it was a hallmark
of a mature intellect that you could
actually maintain friendships
or relationships with people who didn't
believe the same as you and that has
been drummed out of people to the point
where they're constantly trying to polarize
us and get us to pick sides
and so people have lost
that awareness that oh wait a minute
it's okay for somebody to believe
something different you know but
but when you're isolated and
you can't really speak to your families
and family members and
friends because the ideas
are so radical and they will
alienate you that's when you got
to go find the others and that's what I was
doing as a hacker like I was getting abused
in school for
you know for years and
it was that was my outlet
and I found like-minded
people who accepted me for who I
was and actually appreciated
me and considered me a valued member
of the group well there
are groups out there that are like that
and you can find them especially
now with the internet and
you know so for earth shape
I would recommend Dave Weiss's app
you know and there's
all kinds of meetups that are happening
there's the way forward
network with
with you know Alex Zek and that whole
crew they're connecting
people I bought
the app and there was one person
in all of Spain I was like
you know it's like
one in the whole country you know
yeah I was wondering
guess what that one person
lived 20 minutes away
from me amazing and
is now a friend
okay yeah like that's
how it happens synchronicity kicks in
two of my like
one of my best friends now is a guy
who recognized me from my
YouTube channel on the street
in a town far from here
he turned out to be a big
fan of Alex Michaels the
conspiracy music guru and he's
an incredible musician and now
they're jamming together and making songs
all the time and it's only because
he saw me and recognized me from my channel
on the street so you know
you got to take the time put yourself out there
take risks but find
the others and find people you can talk to
without worrying all the time like
what what are the consequences
going to going to be
you know and that's what I was doing back in the
80s with with all these people in our party
lines and stuff so
so here we are four decades later
nothing's changed
wow yeah
see that's the sign of secret purpose right there
that you've got that thread
you're on it and
I think
the last thing I wanted to talk about you're getting some good appreciation here
hello to Paul on the X
I appreciate the comment
almost no one finds me on X
so I appreciate you being
out there and yet Rick said
have wise, enjoyable, authentic
guests especially Mike so
let him know he's appreciated
of course, thank you
Hamcrete bearers here and quite like
Tenberry you guys seem to come as a pair
lots of bears
yeah very good
Big Bear has been talking about biogeology
tell him to get me on
oh yes
in natural I was watching a bit of
tofer talk about it
yeah and then speaking
of these two bears that I see
also in have you come across Garrett Smith's
work
the name rings a bell but I can't
place it
maybe I could get with you
not that I can't talk about it he's an
ND and so
you know how there's outliers
a naturopathic doctor
so there's outliers
and then there's outliers
among outliers
and he's that
and he
turned me into it not that he did that
just because I wanted to go deeper
you know that
I appreciate a lot of the
knowledge in the
natural health world
I'm a cancer survivor
I nearly died and
tried hard for a natural cure
I failed right I
couldn't do it despite spending
thousands of dollars working with the
best ND in
Canada moving across the country to do that
now I know why
that was a fail now I know
but it's taking all of these years
because there's so much
you know like if I could sum it up
without starting a whole new
live stream and happy to talk
after and follow it up in
anyway is that the natural health
world is more
weaponized or at least
equally weaponized against us
than the mainstream
hmm
yeah that's a scary thought but
if you look at if you follow the money
yeah I don't I don't trust vitamins
anymore
right well I like
I get you know whole foods
and stuff I or
this is the natural health
Psiop don't trust
pharmaceuticals like vitamins
and do trust food
well
you would be
disturbed the scale of the lie
that that is
of the lie that
trusting food is
well yeah food is also
completely corrupted
I'm surprised any of us is live at this
point yeah and then and then the kicker
is that the truthers don't like it
they don't like
the greater truth
of it that has
staggering amount of
receipts and research
and it's
you can't look away
you cannot look away you know the first
interview of him I watched I'm like oh no
that can't be true nope
made me watch again I don't
want to watch anything again nothing
almost convenient truths
very inconvenient truths
I watched the second time I'm like darn it
that sounds like it's
explaining all the mysteries
or a great deal of mysteries third time
I watched I'm like okay I got to talk to this guy
I had him on once
I'm still a little bit on the edge by the
second time I'm like there is absolutely
no denying this
and and and I've been a very
close student with a lot of
productive results to show
for it and I'm not the only one there's
like you know literally
hundreds of people around him
getting results with this stuff
where the other stuff you can see
if you've had any serious it's good
you can play in natural health all day long
and if you're young
you can get away with that but you might notice
how as as you get older
I've no idea how old you are Mike but
you know it the
the bottom line is toxicity accumulates
and becomes much more of a
nemesis over time
and detox slows down
over time especially for women
and so so
yeah if you give me permission
I will share a few things with you
sure and if you're brave
braver than most truthers
I love my friends
I'll talk to them anyway but
they I have been
discounted offhand like I'm
surrounded by people who live on black
pills so
excellent
I don't know if you're familiar with Mark
Devlin and this just the whole idea
of you know that God
might not be
you know the benevolent
creator that we were taught
I'm not of that mindset
personally but I understand the
argumentation and
when they lay out the arguments
it's kind of hard to deny
the perspective but I just
I have the conclusion
that I think it's
more profound and complex
than we can understand
and so
the things that they're saying about that are not
necessarily true but
there's a lot of other subjects that
that can be said about as well
right and there is truth to be had
it's raised the standard of
the research and the
evidence so-called evidence I'm willing to accept
because all of a sudden now
this is off the charts and
most people are making claims that
really don't have a base
and being heavily invested in that
anyway I'm going to get off that soapbox for
a second because it doesn't end
and the very last question
I would love to ask you bringing attention
back to your work and this actually
quite great accomplishment
is that you mentioned that it took you
through a catharsis
and that's what I noticed as I
wrote my book and edited my book
and re-edited my book is that
it brought waves and waves
and waves of my own
inner experience to the surface
things that I really didn't know were there
you know I thought I had healed
from my
cancer for example and
then I could still
make myself cry by reading my
own book and so
I'm curious what that was
like for you if you feel like sharing
well the catharsis
for me was more just
bringing the project
to fruition I mean there were
times I went
through a separation
after 25 years that about
five years ago so
I've never shared that on my channel at all
like what the things that were
going on in my personal life but there was
I had some of the roughest years
of my life even as I was
having a lot of fun
things and praise from the
work that I was doing and
the last couple years being invited to a lot
of different events to speak that's all been
amazing but it's you know it's been
juxtaposed by my
you know
like family life being in
tatters in many ways
so
so there were times
throughout that period where I was just like
am I going to die
before this book gets out
like you know what if something
happens to me there's some
book that I read a long time ago I don't
remember the exact words but it was basically like
you know
so
don't die with your song
unsung you know
and not that that was
my song like that it's
a song it's a story
but I have another five books
that I'd like to write two of
them I've already started
one is basically half written so
I've got a lot
you know that I want to accomplish
but the catharsis was
like focusing
and the discipline
to bring it to
fruition and to make it
a product that I could be proud of because
I'm a very slow worker
but I'm a perfectionist also
and usually when I finally do do
something and it comes out it's a very
high quality
but it's I'm like
it's like kicking a donkey
I can go through very long periods of time where
I'm unproductive because I'm
you know ruminating and musing over
all kinds of different ideas and I
and I beat myself up for
for you know not
being more effective or productive
or making better use of my time and
I just have to honor like
that is a use of time also
the rumination is an important part of
the process but it's been
it's been very cathartic
to finally finish that
and have it done and
and it's the first time in my life I have an asset
you know because even as a chiropractor
I'm trading
I'm trading time for money
I don't see it that way I'm trading my skills
for money a lot of people come
in thinking I'm trading my time and they're like
well this is expensive for the amount of time
you spent it's like no you're not paying
for the time you're paying for the
expertise just like I had to
pay you know a hundred grand to go
through chiropractic school to get that expertise
you know so they they're
focusing on the wrong thing
you know they're focusing on the time
spent rather than
how effective was the time spent
you know time for dollars
is the biggest tool of slavery
right there yeah and so
so this is the first time in my life
I've got something that's like it's out there
and it'll well always
is a sketchy word to use
but you know unless something
weird happens or the world
you know starts to really go into chaos
that's going to be there for a long time
to come and hopefully it'll be enjoyed
by a lot of people and like I said maybe
it'll be a screenplay someday and
a movie but
that that was a cathartic thing for me
to to complete
it and to to have
have that like feather in my
cap finally after all this time
nice nice so I'm going to
post the link again
and yeah it's a really
emotional kind of a process
to go through like a hero's
journey of its own I
always amazed I'm writing about the hero's journey
but I'm going through a hero's journey
writing that's our
book and getting it out so
there is the link I hope you can
let me know if you can you can tap on that
or if you can click on
that you should be able to
click the link part and
I do recommend that I'm going to go grab
a copy for my son and praying that he'll sit
and read a book
if not I'll have to wait for the
the
my son is my son is
reading it right now and he was
fun he's like
he said
there was very well written
and he's he's 21
and
and he's like I can't
I can't believe that it's you
like and I was like yeah I
can't either it's like it feels
like a different lifetime so
it's it's an
interesting thing my daughter
read it she was really she loved it
she read the second half
on the plane back from Australia
and she kept looking
over at me as she's shaking her head the whole
time like
because you have to have gotten to the exciting stuff
if you're at the halfway part man it's
it's just speeding up
but good for your I don't
know how old your kids are they're probably not kids
but good for them 24
and almost 22 okay fantastic
yeah yeah good for them I think I kind of
made my son read the book and it's
it's such a gift to them and anyone
you know down the line
that you're leaving this legacy
my my grandma wrote a book she never
did publish it but having written it
her mother's story you know so
that you you realize
very quickly when I lost both my parents
and then I lost the majority
of the extended family to the
COVID thing that
like how quickly lines
disappear and and all of the data
that is
the real and true stuff
that gets passed down right the
the living data
so good for you
yeah I wish like my grandmother
lived to be 102 and she was
still pretty pretty sharp
you know right up to the end
but I would have loved to talk to her
about like pottery and
world's fairs and things
like that because you know
she probably knew stuff
you know that that would have been
interesting and yeah
that's like
the legacies and the heritage
and the traditions and the
the wisdom
of plants and all these things that
it's just like steadily being
done away with but it's all
there to be found if you go looking
for it on the internet now as long
as we have that
you know but they need
that they need all that structure
to control us so
I don't see it going away anytime soon
yeah
exactly excellent point yeah
yeah well
I think we did a really good job
this is a beautifully
satisfying yeah yeah it was a nice
conversation I really
I appreciate it when
when I don't have to go into
presentation mode and like show a
bunch of stuff because I like the dialogue
and I like the way with each
each person it
leads to like different directions
and I don't like telling the same
stories the same ways over and over
again I get bored hearing myself talk
so I love it when questions
are insightful and
you know meanders
nice nice
that's beautiful well thank you so much for coming
any last words you wanted to share at all
no thank you all for
listening those of you who are
and
yeah I know
hi to all the bears there's
few of them in there
yeah I'm always on
I've had a couple of exchanges with Owen
actually I talked to him once on I was
at Mike Winners place
and
I was leaving and he was actually
interviewing Owen
so I talked to him for about
10 minutes but I don't know if you remember that
oh very good
yeah he's he's I don't
want to make any meaning but he's avoided
me I've made a few attempts
that inviting him and
there there's
not the interest or the
I don't know what it is
yeah
Andrew Treggly I don't know to turn your
book into a screenplay is I've
not heard of Andrew Treggly
I don't know who that would be
so Paul or about him or why
would I contact him yeah
if Paul and I are in context
so if you want to send me any more details
I can pass that on to Mike if you like
and yeah that
would be epic definitely
definitely would be
all right my dearest well I'm going to play us
out showing out to my son who does
both the intro and the extra music
for the king heroes dream podcast
he's psycho on YouTube
his
that's his hacker name it is
in the notes below if you feel to go and
sub to him he's got a full-time job and a full-time
girlfriend now so he's not really
making any
any
on your own now
exactly
empty nester syndrome
totally I know it's
I've been trying to call him today are we
on for dinner we on for dinner not getting
through so we'll see
wish me luck me too I have more freedom
than ever now but
there's like oh what am I going to do
with all that freedom
right exactly
exactly
okay my dear well thank you so much for being
here what a joy for the invite
it was wonderful to to be here
you're very take care everybody
okay lots of love
bye for now