WEBVTT 00:02.030 --> 00:08.390 Get ready to take a flamethrower to the official narrative and learn what the elites don't want you to know 00:08.390 --> 00:11.930 You're listening to the Tom Woods show 00:18.500 --> 00:20.460 Hey everybody Tom Woods here it's episode 00:21.580 --> 00:28.540 2747 of the Tom Woods show with John Hoffman who is a research fellow at the Cato Institute has been fantastic on 00:28.540 --> 00:29.860 Everything that's been going on 00:29.860 --> 00:34.200 With regard to the United States in Iran as you can see I'm not in my natural habitat here 00:34.200 --> 00:38.500 I am actually at that. I don't want to say where but I'm in Las Vegas 00:38.500 --> 00:45.440 Which is where my wife was born and raised and I'm in front of the drapes and back of me which are hypnotic 00:45.440 --> 00:51.220 But I I assure you we are trying to persuade you through the strength of our arguments and not through 00:51.220 --> 00:55.360 Hypnotic shapes in the background but but in any case John 00:55.360 --> 01:01.720 I'm I'm glad to have you back and I read you on so-called X and you know 01:01.720 --> 01:03.660 You're you're doing very very important work 01:04.400 --> 01:08.820 You know this thing this conflict whatever it is with Iran 01:08.820 --> 01:15.440 Changes so quickly that unless everything I do is a live stream, you know, I'm afraid I'm gonna be out of date 01:15.440 --> 01:17.920 You know even six hours later or whatever 01:17.920 --> 01:24.740 So so I want to see what we can do from a a bigger picture standpoint here to talk about issues 01:24.740 --> 01:31.120 Related to this that will still be I think important even weeks months years from now 01:31.120 --> 01:31.960 So for example 01:32.680 --> 01:39.940 you've had a lot to say about the the so-called special relationship between the United States and Israel now 01:39.940 --> 01:44.620 This is a topic that I feel like I've been forced to talk about. I mean I I 01:45.940 --> 01:51.160 Guess I talked about it before but it wasn't top of mind. I have a million other things 01:51.160 --> 01:53.240 I want to talk about so it's not that I'm 01:54.000 --> 01:59.160 Obsessed with the topic. It's more that the topic has forced itself on me 01:59.160 --> 02:01.840 You know current events have forced this on me 02:01.840 --> 02:06.040 I don't really want to spend all my time on this but it really really is important 02:06.040 --> 02:10.900 and I guess the the thing I want to ask you and and I want you to take your time with with this is 02:13.080 --> 02:18.040 The debate well, there wasn't a debate up until recently but now there is a little bit of a debate 02:18.620 --> 02:24.520 over the over whether that relationship is a net positive or negative for the United States and 02:25.300 --> 02:29.940 Now some of the debate is you're an anti-Semite even for raising the question. All right 02:29.940 --> 02:34.900 Well with the 5% of people who are capable of having an actual conversation about this 02:34.900 --> 02:40.160 It has boiled down to the interests of Israel and the United States are in fact 02:40.160 --> 02:43.200 Coordinate so it's a good thing that we have this 02:43.200 --> 02:48.100 Relationship the other side says the interests of the United States and Israel 02:49.040 --> 02:52.040 Diverge in major major ways and then of course 02:52.040 --> 02:56.800 I suppose there's a third middle of the road position which would be that as with any pair of countries 02:57.300 --> 03:02.060 Sometimes their interests are consonant with one another, but other times they diverge 03:02.680 --> 03:04.220 of those three 03:04.220 --> 03:05.120 options 03:05.880 --> 03:08.840 Which one describes your view the best? 03:09.300 --> 03:14.300 Well, let's start there. Which one described one two or three? I 03:14.300 --> 03:21.780 Would say probably what describes my view the best is that US interests do not equal Israeli interests 03:21.780 --> 03:22.440 These are two 03:23.100 --> 03:23.660 distinct 03:25.480 --> 03:31.740 Matters that we're talking about here. Sure. Can there be areas of overlap sure just like with any other country on planet earth? 03:32.080 --> 03:33.920 but from a 03:33.920 --> 03:35.340 baseline assumption 03:36.040 --> 03:43.140 That US foreign policy is supposed to work on behalf of the security prosperity and freedom of the American people I 03:43.880 --> 03:49.420 Do not see US interests as concomitant with with Israeli interests particularly today 03:49.420 --> 03:53.200 Okay, so what I'd like to know is 03:54.060 --> 03:56.240 What do you think of as? 03:57.400 --> 04:02.580 The United States interests in the Middle East for instance in particular 04:03.140 --> 04:09.760 What what are the United States is into what the United States like to see in them in the Middle East and and 04:10.220 --> 04:16.260 vis-a-vis itself and other countries in the Middle East and what would Israel like to see in what specific ways 04:16.260 --> 04:19.120 to their visions for 04:19.420 --> 04:27.200 The Middle East diverge and and how does that translate into specific policies and maybe as you formulate that answer 04:27.200 --> 04:28.740 Why don't we start in fact with? 04:29.520 --> 04:35.160 What is it that makes this the quote-unquote special relationship with Israel, which is a term everybody uses 04:35.900 --> 04:38.120 What is it that makes that? 04:38.640 --> 04:42.100 Relationship special. Where did this come from? 04:42.320 --> 04:45.140 But what's the origins of that and then maybe from there? 04:45.660 --> 04:47.240 explore some of these other issues 04:48.840 --> 04:53.000 Or so I think you know the US Israel relationship is special 04:53.000 --> 04:57.800 it is unique it is unlike any other the United States currently has abroad and 04:58.400 --> 05:02.360 You see this for example in the rhetoric of American officials 05:02.360 --> 05:03.760 You'll never hear 05:03.760 --> 05:08.400 American officials go to the lengths that they go to justify the US relationship 05:08.400 --> 05:11.700 With any other country as they do with Israel 05:11.700 --> 05:17.820 I mean the the term special relationship came from JFK that he called this a special relationship akin to 05:18.360 --> 05:20.540 Only what we have with the United Kingdom 05:21.300 --> 05:25.560 President Joe Biden used to say if we if there wasn't in Israel, we would have to create one 05:26.120 --> 05:33.980 Nancy Pelosi said at an apex summit that if the US Capitol came crashing to the ground the only thing that would remain would be our 05:35.040 --> 05:36.420 steadfast support for Israel 05:36.420 --> 05:37.820 So, you know, that's pretty 05:38.460 --> 05:41.260 astounding rhetoric and that's coupled with more than 05:41.260 --> 05:47.200 $330 billion just for inflation in aid since World War two primarily military aid 05:48.240 --> 05:50.000 in the slew of other, you know 05:50.680 --> 05:53.920 Arms deals intelligence cooperation and so on and so forth 05:53.920 --> 06:00.280 But I always get asked, you know, why is this relationship special and I and I point to three reasons 06:00.280 --> 06:04.120 They're not mutually exclusive. They overlap. They reinforce one another 06:04.120 --> 06:10.780 But the three reasons are broadly the first being normative the more cultural moral 06:11.840 --> 06:18.780 Arguments, you know post World War two this feeling of guilt, you know, this association with this country in the Middle East, you know 06:18.780 --> 06:23.680 This idea that the United States has grafted an American image on to Israel 06:23.680 --> 06:27.780 It's a Western outpost in a barbarous land so to speak 06:28.400 --> 06:33.000 You know, and there's this idea of Israel being the quote-unquote only democracy in the Middle East 06:33.000 --> 06:36.140 So we need to support it. That's the more normative 06:36.800 --> 06:37.880 Angle of things 06:38.440 --> 06:44.520 The second one is the domestic political, you know, what we always hear about, you know, the Israel lobby and so on and so forth 06:44.520 --> 06:51.780 It's you know, the constellation of different actors who try to push us foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction 06:51.780 --> 06:55.740 And you're often not rewarded for for going against 06:55.740 --> 07:03.580 That consensus and then the third is strategic the idea that American interests equal Israeli interests, you know 07:03.580 --> 07:07.480 Lindsey Graham calls Israel our eyes and ears in the Middle East 07:08.020 --> 07:12.880 Benjamin Netanyahu calls Israel America's unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East and 07:13.260 --> 07:21.600 It's that third one the strategic one where I usually focus in on and I argue that this is fundamentally not the case that 07:21.600 --> 07:23.440 American interests in the Middle East 07:23.440 --> 07:27.900 do not equal Israeli interests in the Middle East and 07:28.980 --> 07:36.520 viewed from a perspective from a very limited perspective of American interests our interests in the Middle East are our 07:37.800 --> 07:43.380 Limited and easy to accomplish I would say we have three the free flow of oil out of the region 07:44.160 --> 07:47.020 preventing a terrorist attacks against the American homeland and 07:47.800 --> 07:52.720 Preventing the emergence of a regional hegemon any one actor to dominate the region all 07:52.720 --> 08:00.620 Of those pretty easy to achieve and don't require special relationships with Israel or or any other country in the Middle East 08:01.680 --> 08:02.160 No 08:03.560 --> 08:05.520 The United States has a particular 08:06.460 --> 08:12.500 Reason for being and by the way that you another reason you way you can tell that I'm out of sorts and out of my normal 08:12.500 --> 08:17.120 I think I have my my mic flag upside down this this goes to show it's like when the 08:17.120 --> 08:21.100 Maybe it's because we're in wartime, you know or it's a desperate situation 08:21.100 --> 08:28.440 That's like the when the US flag is hung upside down. This is the same here. That's a it's a distress signal that this thing is this way 08:28.440 --> 08:32.680 But but but anyway, the United States obviously has 08:33.340 --> 08:38.420 particular reason to dislike Al Qaeda and yet it seems like 08:38.980 --> 08:45.940 The Israel does not have that same reason or that that same animosity toward it and is rather 08:45.940 --> 08:50.220 You know has its own issues with Hamas and Hezbollah and so on it 08:50.220 --> 08:57.660 Seems to prioritize that to the point where nobody seems to bat an eye that we have a former Al Qaeda guy now in 08:58.200 --> 09:04.260 Syria, you know running Syria and this is just like oh well, you know, everybody has a bad background 09:04.260 --> 09:11.840 You know, everybody has some things in his background with the way this was explained to the American public. Well, yeah, I suppose we all you know 09:12.500 --> 09:16.480 You know, maybe maybe you've smoked a cigarette behind the high school or something 09:16.480 --> 09:20.700 But you know, you don't really have that kind of a kind of a background 09:21.500 --> 09:28.740 To what extent is can you elaborate on this? I mean because it does seem that the United States would pride 09:28.740 --> 09:33.420 If it were pursuing its interests would prioritize particular 09:33.420 --> 09:38.240 Bad actors in the Middle East in a different order from how Israel does 09:39.520 --> 09:42.820 Absolutely, I would agree and this is a point that 09:43.580 --> 09:47.520 Is a fantastic point because so many people gloss over this is 09:48.100 --> 09:50.060 the different types of 09:50.060 --> 09:52.860 Islamist inspired actors in the Middle East 09:52.860 --> 10:00.640 The ones that we are opposed to and that threaten the United States are fundamentally different than those that threaten 10:00.640 --> 10:04.960 Israel those that threaten us Al Qaeda and ISIS are part of a global 10:05.620 --> 10:10.100 Transnational Salafist jihadist movement that would wants to target the so-and-so far enemy 10:10.740 --> 10:16.500 Being the United States in the West for propping up dictators in the region meddling in the Middle East and stuff like that 10:17.180 --> 10:20.640 the Islamist oriented groups that 10:21.460 --> 10:28.580 Israel fights like Hamas and Hezbollah are are rooted in a local context. These are rooted in 10:29.440 --> 10:33.260 Resistance primarily to occupation and they use terrorism and so on and so forth 10:33.260 --> 10:40.640 But they are not part of this broader global Salafi jihadist movement as is Al Qaeda as is ISIS 10:40.640 --> 10:48.080 These are we're talking about two different entities here, both of which appeal to Islam and try to use that to motivate 10:48.940 --> 10:54.080 You know motivate people to join them and to do horrible things, but that 10:54.710 --> 10:58.120 Ultimately have two very different political 10:58.830 --> 10:59.180 objectives 11:00.160 --> 11:08.520 Then if what you're describing for what the United States is interests in the Middle East would be like what what it wants to see 11:08.520 --> 11:10.340 Happen what it doesn't want to see happen 11:11.240 --> 11:19.580 There's obviously a difference between that and what Israel's goals would be and some of that has become clear in the course of this 11:19.580 --> 11:27.240 War with Iran that it it looks as if it's very hard to read Donald Trump period this time or any other time 11:28.080 --> 11:31.100 but as it looks as if he's trying to 11:31.800 --> 11:33.680 wind things down or 11:34.500 --> 11:38.700 It insert some some level of restraint into the equation 11:38.700 --> 11:47.140 Then all of a sudden the Israeli government launches some in you know major infrastructure attack on Iran as if to say not so fast 11:47.140 --> 11:48.960 you are not getting out so it's like 11:49.780 --> 11:55.480 Obviously, it is not in the interest of the United States to be involved in a long in a prolonged 11:56.140 --> 11:56.640 quagmire 11:58.380 --> 11:59.380 but is 11:59.380 --> 12:06.080 There a sense in which it is in the interest of Israel for the United States to be involved in a quagmire because the quagmire would 12:06.080 --> 12:07.500 Continue to degrade 12:08.480 --> 12:11.000 Iranian capabilities over time. There's no question about that 12:11.000 --> 12:16.180 But at what cost well at no cost to Israel, but at great cost of the United States 12:17.520 --> 12:22.660 So I say I would say Israeli foreign policy at the current moment and we can argue 12:22.660 --> 12:29.340 You know how long this is held but Israeli foreign policy is focused on what I would call a very expansionist and aggressive 12:29.900 --> 12:31.780 foreign policy and 12:31.780 --> 12:34.140 Because of the special relationship 12:34.140 --> 12:39.280 The the US Israel relationship. They're able to pursue this agenda 12:39.280 --> 12:47.300 While being insulated from the political economic and military costs that are needed to pursue such an agenda the United States 12:48.920 --> 12:56.620 So seduces this agenda, you know, whether it be through money whether it be through military force like we're seeing now in American lives 12:56.620 --> 13:00.060 But the United States has a 13:00.060 --> 13:03.960 And I think the war with Iran is is the perfect example 13:04.500 --> 13:08.720 Look at those three interests that I mentioned that the United States has in the Middle East oil 13:10.140 --> 13:11.180 terrorism and 13:12.900 --> 13:13.940 hegemony on 13:13.940 --> 13:16.680 The oil matter look at the global oil market right now 13:17.540 --> 13:24.640 Nothing that we're doing vis-a-vis Iran secures that interest. In fact, it's the opposite oil is this is the largest disruption in the global energy market 13:24.640 --> 13:29.920 In history according to the IAEA and this is because the United States went to war with Iran 13:30.680 --> 13:36.480 Look at the counter-terrorism question. I'm never one to saber-rattle about, you know 13:37.220 --> 13:43.840 Terrorism threat to the United States. I think it's been overblown for a long time and used to justify a lot of horrible policies 13:44.320 --> 13:44.760 but 13:45.360 --> 13:47.080 Things such as this 13:47.740 --> 13:54.920 Generate the animosity towards the United States that feeds nefarious actors that want to target and hurt the United States 13:54.920 --> 14:02.460 I mean the term blowback itself that the very term that we use all the time now blowback was coined by the CIA in 14:02.840 --> 14:08.960 1953 when it was discussing operation Ajax in Iran to overthrow Muhammad Masada and reinstall the Shah 14:09.560 --> 14:15.960 Talking about the possible ramifications negative ramifications for the United States. So these policies come with real risks 14:16.840 --> 14:20.220 And you know to me as an American 14:21.760 --> 14:28.600 What Israel is doing in the Middle East is first and foremost designed to advance that 14:29.440 --> 14:36.380 Expansionist and aggressive agenda and I would argue that this agenda is not concomitant with American interests 14:36.380 --> 14:37.700 I would argue that 14:38.460 --> 14:45.320 The the very logic of the special relationship hinders our Washington's ability to recognize this 14:46.000 --> 14:54.660 Whether they fear the political costs of going against it or whether they genuinely believe that you know subsidizing this this agenda 14:54.660 --> 14:57.200 You know somehow benefits the United States 14:57.740 --> 15:02.200 But I think it's you know going back to the original point that you had at the beginning of the show 15:02.200 --> 15:04.900 You know this topic being forced on us 15:04.900 --> 15:09.160 It really has because it's so blatant and it's so out in the front 15:09.160 --> 15:14.520 I had friends who come to me who know what I do for a living who have zero interest in the Middle East or anything like that 15:14.520 --> 15:17.040 And they say you know, hey, did you see what Israel did today? 15:17.440 --> 15:19.320 And I was like, I didn't even know you like kept up with this 15:19.320 --> 15:25.540 Yeah, but you know it has been forced on the American public because it's just so out in the open now 15:26.420 --> 15:31.000 Hey gang once the new year is no longer new you get past the holidays the decorations are gone 15:31.000 --> 15:35.280 Regular life takes over again. 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So how would you steal man the argument? 18:43.800 --> 18:50.700 That israel is in fact a strategic asset to the united states now as I say I hear this argument made 18:51.400 --> 18:55.960 Not that often, but I do hear it made most of the time. It's just you're an anti-semite 18:55.960 --> 19:00.040 For criticizing israel. I mean that really is what it's reduced to 19:00.600 --> 19:05.660 I I do hear people saying oh, you're not necessarily an anti-semite for criticizing israel. Yeah 19:06.200 --> 19:09.320 Quote not necessarily. It's just that everyone who does it gets called that 19:09.320 --> 19:12.400 So I guess someday down the road a thousand years from now 19:12.400 --> 19:16.760 Somebody will successfully criticize the government of israel without being called an anti-semite 19:16.760 --> 19:20.680 But among people who actually want to have a discussion the three percent out there 19:21.480 --> 19:27.380 They do make an argument that in fact at the the relationship with israel advances 19:27.380 --> 19:34.020 Certain strategic goals of the united states or in in some way benefits the united states. Can you steal man that argument? 19:35.200 --> 19:36.280 Absolutely and 19:36.280 --> 19:41.120 Again, I think you hit on a critical point is this argument's often not made 19:41.120 --> 19:47.880 It's often just taken as a given that that israeli interests equal american interests and people are, you know 19:47.880 --> 19:51.860 Are often confused when you ask them to explain well, hold on 19:52.450 --> 19:56.940 How are these interests aligned and and how do israeli actions advance american interests? 19:57.340 --> 20:01.740 And that's where you know, you often get uh at hominem attacks or or you know 20:01.740 --> 20:04.880 Just looks of confusion because they take it as as a given 20:04.880 --> 20:08.240 But to steal man this argument. There's a couple things 20:09.060 --> 20:11.840 The first and foremost thing that I think you will 20:12.440 --> 20:18.200 That the advocates of this relationship will put forward is america is fight or israel is fighting america's enemies 20:18.200 --> 20:22.400 They're fighting them over there. So we don't have to fight them over here 20:22.400 --> 20:25.040 uh, that is typically what is 20:25.620 --> 20:30.200 Part and partial to the strategic asset narrative if you will 20:30.760 --> 20:33.660 That's always what I refer to it as is the strategic asset narrative 20:34.200 --> 20:40.900 And this had been the case since the cold war. They'll point to, you know, combating arab nationalism and keeping the soviet union out of the middle east 20:40.900 --> 20:43.680 They'll point to, you know, terrorist groups 20:44.220 --> 20:44.880 in the 20:45.380 --> 20:52.280 Uh, we already discussed how that's not really the case though because the islamist inspired groups that they they face are fundamentally different than ours 20:52.800 --> 20:58.040 Um, and then they'll point to combating rogue states like iraq and iraq 20:58.740 --> 20:59.180 um 20:59.180 --> 20:59.320 um 21:00.000 --> 21:01.180 I would argue 21:01.900 --> 21:06.280 That many of these enemies even dating back to the cold war with the arab nationalism 21:06.960 --> 21:13.200 Many of these enemies were either a product of the special relationship or exacerbated because of it 21:13.200 --> 21:19.840 One of the chief reasons why the arab national states turned to the soviet union was because the united states emphatic embrace of israel 21:19.840 --> 21:26.180 They were just this wasn't, you know, some crazy, uh out of nowhere thing. They were counter balancing against a superpower 21:26.920 --> 21:30.660 Casting its weight behind their adversary. So they turned to another superpower 21:31.700 --> 21:33.280 and the same thing with, uh 21:34.020 --> 21:39.180 Or not the same thing, but you know, we discussed how the islamist inspired groups like hamas and hezbollah 21:39.840 --> 21:47.060 root their agenda and, uh, uh, their focus in in in a local context 21:47.060 --> 21:52.920 Uh, this is fundamentally different from the salafist jihadist movement that you know 21:52.920 --> 21:58.720 Was spurred during the the the war in afghan the soviet invasion of afghanistan and which grew into 21:59.180 --> 22:02.320 al-qaeda and these groups that came to target the united states 22:02.320 --> 22:04.680 They're just two very different 22:05.320 --> 22:05.680 things 22:06.280 --> 22:10.120 um, and the third one rogue states like iraq and iran 22:10.760 --> 22:11.200 uh 22:12.720 --> 22:19.620 These iran in particular, I think is is the epitome of this is iran's ability to undermine american interests in the middle east 22:19.620 --> 22:24.160 Are inherently limited. They pose no threat to the american homeland 22:24.840 --> 22:33.880 The uh, the threat that that iran does pose to american interests is often exacerbated by our own militarism like we're seeing now 22:34.440 --> 22:39.820 And these states are not problematic for us. They're primarily viewed as problematic for israel 22:40.340 --> 22:42.780 Uh, so again, you're seeing this 22:43.580 --> 22:49.260 Aquating of israeli enemies with with us enemies and you're you're equating 22:49.260 --> 22:53.900 Uh, the american interests with with israeli interests 22:54.540 --> 22:56.040 And I would also add 22:56.540 --> 23:00.500 Probably the thing that I receive the most also as a pushback 23:00.860 --> 23:10.040 Is the idea that israel provides the united states with critically needed intelligence. Um, I get that all the time. Yeah, uh, and 23:10.620 --> 23:13.160 Again, I caution folks here because 23:13.680 --> 23:20.080 The intelligence that they provide us is on israel's enemies groups like hamas and hisballah and stuff like that that are only 23:20.080 --> 23:22.880 Relevant to the united states because of the special relationship 23:22.880 --> 23:27.100 You would never hear the words hamas and stuff like that if it wasn't for the special relationship 23:27.720 --> 23:28.880 So it's on their enemies 23:30.380 --> 23:35.220 It behooves them to give us that intelligence if they view these actors as as so threatening 23:35.220 --> 23:38.080 It would behoove them to share this intelligence with the united states 23:39.180 --> 23:40.400 Third I would say 23:41.160 --> 23:45.840 israeli supplied uh intelligence to the united states is often uh 23:46.660 --> 23:51.020 Dramatically, uh inflated designed to push the united states in a 23:51.780 --> 23:55.540 Specific direction, you know, the the intelligence is often inherently political 23:56.200 --> 24:01.060 And then also, you know, I'm not a fan of the the national security state if you will 24:01.060 --> 24:07.820 But let's not pretend ourselves that the united states doesn't have a global intelligence apparatus capable of surveilling just 24:07.820 --> 24:08.980 You know just about anywhere 24:09.680 --> 24:14.220 And does not need israel to be its eyes and ears in the middle east or elsewhere 24:14.220 --> 24:18.320 All right, so I I've been wanting to I want to talk about this 24:18.320 --> 24:19.840 topic in 24:19.840 --> 24:27.280 In the future as well with other with other guests because as I said, this is the debate that nobody for some reason wants to have 24:27.280 --> 24:27.780 Even though 24:28.400 --> 24:30.440 This is a this is a practical question 24:30.440 --> 24:35.880 You know, either the relationship is beneficial or it isn't, you know, and we you know, it seems like 24:36.400 --> 24:39.240 Reasonable question to to ask I've been going back 24:39.840 --> 24:41.160 Reading some of the history 24:41.800 --> 24:47.740 Of the united states and israel back to the late 40s from the the very moment of truman 24:48.420 --> 24:49.260 Harry truman 24:50.120 --> 24:53.340 implicitly extending recognition to the new state of israel 24:54.000 --> 24:59.200 Apparently 11 minutes after it officially, you know declared its independence 25:00.000 --> 25:01.800 And from that moment 25:02.200 --> 25:03.200 You can see 25:04.220 --> 25:06.660 Specialists domestic policy advisors 25:07.280 --> 25:12.340 Officials throughout the u.s. Government. I'm reasonably certain george marshal among them 25:13.220 --> 25:18.600 All speaking about tremendous pressure that the president is under to take a particular 25:19.360 --> 25:20.080 side 25:20.720 --> 25:22.800 Well the israeli side, of course, but to 25:22.800 --> 25:27.700 adopt particular policies vis-a-vis israel and some of that pressure 25:27.700 --> 25:29.780 Well, especially early on 25:30.360 --> 25:31.200 We read 25:31.860 --> 25:34.880 Clark cliford who was a domestic policy advisor to truman 25:35.680 --> 25:38.860 Saying just frankly saying you have a whole lot of 25:39.720 --> 25:42.320 Jewish voters and they're going to want you to do this 25:42.900 --> 25:45.940 And you have people in the state department other 25:46.460 --> 25:53.220 U.s. Officials saying that is not the reason that the the commander-in-chief should be making decisions 25:53.680 --> 25:57.520 It shouldn't be a matter of we have to balance domestic political considerations 25:57.520 --> 26:03.280 We should do what's best for u.s. Interest and you see these words the word the words pressure 26:03.280 --> 26:08.980 And influence used over and over again throughout the u.s. Government at various levels 26:09.720 --> 26:16.180 Describing what's happening with the president and middle east policymaking that word pressure comes up over and over again 26:16.180 --> 26:17.860 And sometimes they're talking about 26:18.820 --> 26:25.460 On the domestic side because they think there's a voting bloc that votes in this way now parentheses today 26:26.080 --> 26:28.500 I would say that it's not the case 26:28.500 --> 26:34.380 That american jews vote as a bloc in favor of policies like the war in iran 26:34.380 --> 26:37.880 I think to the contrary they would be more likely to vote against it 26:37.880 --> 26:41.780 A whole lot of them. So that's not even clear that that that holds 26:41.780 --> 26:47.280 It could still be that there are big donors and that sort of thing but in terms of domestic politics 26:47.280 --> 26:53.260 It's not so obvious that an ultra ultra lakud position is is a is a winner politically 26:53.260 --> 26:59.600 But but but there's that but as time goes on the word pressure then starts to be used to refer to 27:00.260 --> 27:03.620 The government of israel exerting pressure on the united states not 27:04.140 --> 27:10.300 domestic pressure groups as much as the government of israel and a lot of people will say well, how dare you 27:10.300 --> 27:14.720 Accused donald trump of being influenced by the government of israel 27:14.720 --> 27:18.640 You are depriving him of then they use this left-wing word agency 27:18.640 --> 27:24.300 You know can't he make his own decisions and ultimately of course the buck does stop with him and doggone 27:24.300 --> 27:27.260 He should be making his own decisions, but I think it's 27:28.400 --> 27:29.760 We're capable of saying 27:30.860 --> 27:34.840 Metaphysically, yes, he absolutely can make his own decisions, but in the real world 27:35.440 --> 27:39.140 He does seem to have been put. I don't know what the nature of the pressure is 27:39.720 --> 27:46.200 But it does certainly seem as if he's been influenced by israel and by certain 27:46.200 --> 27:50.620 Hawks in in in the u.s. And I think in his case 27:51.400 --> 27:58.820 He's uniquely susceptible to pressure because I think he's in in a sense like a george w. Bush that 27:58.820 --> 28:03.560 He's not super learned. He's not particularly book smart 28:04.060 --> 28:09.560 And so it's a case of it can be a case of whoever speaks to him the most recently 28:09.560 --> 28:14.260 Gets his ear. I mean you saw that vivek ramaswamy talk to trump 28:14.820 --> 28:18.480 Like that like one day before he gave a speech about 28:20.560 --> 28:24.980 Cbdc central bank digital currencies trump hadn't known a thing about that the day before 28:24.980 --> 28:30.860 Vivek tells him no no no we got to be dead set against it and he comes out completely against it the next day 28:30.860 --> 28:33.740 So I think he is a very suggestible guy 28:34.340 --> 28:37.980 I I don't think there's anything wrong with noting the obvious about it 28:38.700 --> 28:40.500 Well, I would completely agree 28:40.500 --> 28:44.640 I think we know now, you know trump is often 28:45.260 --> 28:50.260 This might be oversimplifying it but often influenced by the last person he spoke to, you know, he's just 28:50.980 --> 28:56.060 In him, you know somebody who is amenable to being influenced if you put it that way 28:56.060 --> 28:58.060 But I want to go back to your point 28:58.060 --> 28:58.980 uh 28:59.600 --> 29:06.220 About pressure and so on because it's really important and we often are told, you know 29:06.220 --> 29:08.560 Oh, this pressure doesn't exist so on and so forth 29:09.260 --> 29:14.000 I for a project that i'm working on I I read through harry truman's memoirs 29:14.000 --> 29:22.400 Uh, uh very long and dry. Um, but if I could read one, uh, uh sentence to you here where he's talking about, uh 29:23.240 --> 29:27.260 Um the the pressure that he faced at the time for recognizing israel and he said 29:27.260 --> 29:34.600 The facts were not only that were there pressure movements around the united nations unlike anything that had been seen there before 29:34.600 --> 29:39.740 But that the white house too was subjected to a constant barrage 29:39.740 --> 29:43.360 The persistence of a few of the extreme zionist leaders 29:43.880 --> 29:48.640 Actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats disturbed and annoyed me 29:49.160 --> 29:56.420 This is from harry truman's, uh, uh very long, uh memoirs. Um, and what we see is 29:57.200 --> 30:02.800 And this is that that second, uh of those three reasons that I gave you why the the special relationship exists 30:02.800 --> 30:10.260 And what makes it special this is the second part the domestic political part. Um, and it has as we 30:11.540 --> 30:13.480 Progressed since 1948 30:14.960 --> 30:18.260 Those three reasons have oscillated in terms of importance 30:18.260 --> 30:23.420 So at the beginning of the us-israel relationship the strategic part wasn't even a thing 30:24.080 --> 30:24.720 it was 30:25.600 --> 30:27.120 purely, uh 30:27.120 --> 30:31.060 This or 99 percent this idea that 30:31.060 --> 30:31.920 Uh 30:32.660 --> 30:36.760 There was a normative connection with israel and the domestic political part 30:37.440 --> 30:39.580 All right, everybody. 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Government and israel 33:41.900 --> 33:44.140 Have got themselves in a position in which 33:45.560 --> 33:46.920 in order to 33:47.760 --> 33:52.140 Accomplish the goals that they at least implicitly seem to have set out for themselves 33:52.880 --> 33:56.880 They would have to and get I don't know that that short of nuclear weapons 33:56.880 --> 34:02.620 You could accomplish that at this point and at least the us doesn't want to be the pariah of the world 34:02.620 --> 34:05.620 So probably would not go that route 34:06.100 --> 34:10.280 So if you have to stop short of replacing the regime 34:10.820 --> 34:16.380 Well, you've now made the regime worse. Yes, it's true. You've degraded their conventional military capabilities 34:16.980 --> 34:21.220 But well, that's a short-term outcome. They'll rebuild those 34:21.220 --> 34:26.580 So is the result now that we're just going to have a a war with iran every five years. I mean what 34:27.240 --> 34:30.100 What could the future possibly look like in this situation? 34:30.420 --> 34:33.800 Yeah, I would say going off the point first about this 34:34.460 --> 34:38.980 This disconnect between, you know, we've seen many tactical successes 34:38.980 --> 34:44.040 I don't think there was any doubt that the united states and israel could drop a lot of bombs kill a lot of people destroy a lot of stuff 34:44.600 --> 34:45.120 um 34:45.120 --> 34:50.460 But it was always a question of to what strategic end and of all the various 34:50.980 --> 34:57.680 Justifications that we saw or heard for this for this war who took precedence the nuclear program and the regime 34:58.400 --> 35:00.820 And on both ends, I think we have 35:01.600 --> 35:08.860 Pretty clearly not reached those ends the the the highly enriched uranium is still in iranian hands 35:09.400 --> 35:17.080 They will likely retain this after the war. You can't bomb away research and development know-how anyways. They they have the technological 35:18.460 --> 35:25.680 Know-how of how to proceed with their program. That was why everybody really was stressing at political solution because that's really the only way to 35:27.080 --> 35:30.960 Quote-unquote stop the program was a diplomatic solution 35:31.680 --> 35:37.000 But the regime now is hardened. It is led primarily by a more extreme cadre the 35:37.760 --> 35:41.480 IRGC guys much taba hamane the new supreme leader 35:41.480 --> 35:45.680 There was actually a great deal of controversy around whether he was supposed to be 35:46.200 --> 35:49.700 Supreme leader if we if if ayatollah hamane would have died 35:50.280 --> 35:52.240 Not in the context of a war 35:52.900 --> 35:57.840 I think we could be pretty safe in saying that much taba hamane would not have been supreme leader 35:57.840 --> 36:02.920 He didn't have the religious credentials the islamic republic was founded on rejecting dynastic rule 36:03.480 --> 36:09.060 But given the ongoing war the IRGC was able to essentially force this guy through 36:09.640 --> 36:10.000 um 36:10.000 --> 36:16.940 So you're now dealing with a more hardened regime that the the leader of this regime now much taba hamane has had his father 36:16.940 --> 36:18.280 His mother his wife 36:19.120 --> 36:24.920 And his daughter killed. Um, I don't think he's going to be ready to sit down with the united states for meaningful negotiations 36:24.920 --> 36:27.120 If that's even possible, um 36:28.020 --> 36:33.260 So it begs this question that you mentioned earlier about american and israeli interests 36:33.260 --> 36:38.660 I would say the foremost american interest right now is not getting bogged down in a long 36:38.660 --> 36:43.620 Prolonged war of attrition with iran that they are positioned better than we are to win 36:43.620 --> 36:47.320 It's on their home turf for them victory is just survival 36:47.900 --> 36:51.140 Uh, and we've already you know, we've already seen what can happen 36:51.140 --> 36:53.320 You know given the impacts on the global energy market 36:53.940 --> 36:57.980 And if trump doubles down it sends ground troops and so on and so forth 36:57.980 --> 37:00.760 Then I think you're going to see that get a whole lot works 37:00.760 --> 37:08.540 Uh because iran has been holding back in certain capacities in terms of going all out on energy infrastructure and so on in the region 37:09.600 --> 37:12.700 If trump escalates they will likely escalate in kind 37:12.700 --> 37:19.560 So I think the foremost interest for the united states is not getting bogged down in another costly middle east war 37:20.460 --> 37:22.500 But from the israeli perspective 37:23.400 --> 37:32.500 The israelis want the united states to continue, uh, uh destroying iran's conventional capabilities and in israel wants to be able to adopt 37:32.500 --> 37:38.380 It's so called mowing the mowing the lawn strategy that it adopts in gaza and has uh 37:39.240 --> 37:45.680 Lebanon which is this idea that will launch periodic military raids to continue degrading our enemy and keep them in a state of chaos 37:45.680 --> 37:50.740 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and this is something that a lot of us raise the alarm 37:51.440 --> 37:54.440 About prior to the war even starting because we said hey 37:55.780 --> 38:02.620 The iranis hear this rhetoric right like they hear people say like, you know, the israeli officials talk about mowing the lawn in iran 38:02.620 --> 38:03.880 they hear this 38:04.400 --> 38:10.920 And iran is going to want to demonstrate to the united states and to israel that you can't do that here 38:10.920 --> 38:14.760 And the only way to do that is to inflict pain on 38:14.760 --> 38:18.200 Uh, the united states and on israel and for iran 38:18.200 --> 38:26.180 Uh, they're the key of their strategy right now is to raise the political and economic costs on donald trump of this war 38:26.180 --> 38:30.900 Primarily through the energy market until he feels that the uh feels the heat needs to back down 38:31.560 --> 38:35.580 Um, and in that sense the iranians have the advantage here 38:35.580 --> 38:42.960 Uh, it seems that washington was quite unprepared for this even though just about anybody could tell you 38:42.960 --> 38:48.560 You know that iran was going to target energy infrastructure first and foremost and go after the straight of four moves 38:49.020 --> 38:52.680 But now we're in this, uh strange position where 38:53.340 --> 38:58.420 trump wants to you know, see some sort of victory, but also, uh, not 38:58.420 --> 39:02.300 You know in an ideal world get out before things get a whole lot worse 39:02.980 --> 39:03.580 and 39:03.580 --> 39:09.320 If I had the ear of the president what I would say is take the tactical victories that you've achieved 39:10.200 --> 39:13.460 And get out try to make a deal with iran here 39:14.160 --> 39:20.420 Recognize that the only options that you have primarily further escalation are not going to yield any further benefit 39:20.420 --> 39:22.280 You we've reached the point of diminishing returns 39:23.600 --> 39:28.160 And do not fall for the trap of a prolonged war with iran 39:29.880 --> 39:31.660 It's hard to see what more 39:32.380 --> 39:38.200 What more you could get at this point and as I say you walk away and a critic 39:38.780 --> 39:39.520 could say 39:40.200 --> 39:46.500 Well, yes, we know as you say we know you're physically capable of dropping bombs. Nobody needed that demonstration 39:46.500 --> 39:52.140 You could do that and that could harm the conventional uh capabilities of of iran 39:52.820 --> 39:53.120 but 39:53.900 --> 39:59.180 You have not made it impossible for them to uh, or you have not 39:59.180 --> 40:00.840 installed a regime 40:01.440 --> 40:04.760 That you could be assured would never conceivably 40:05.400 --> 40:05.700 uh 40:06.220 --> 40:12.380 Have a nuclear weapon. It's it's it's still quite conceivable. You have an even more hostile regime now 40:12.380 --> 40:15.440 So it's hard to walk away from that and say 40:15.900 --> 40:17.640 We're better off than we were before 40:18.200 --> 40:19.920 Obviously and and and not to mention 40:20.480 --> 40:23.320 By all accounts other than whit cough and cushioner 40:24.260 --> 40:26.480 It seems to me by all accounts 40:27.280 --> 40:28.020 there was 40:28.020 --> 40:34.120 A you know if you're concerned about nuclear weapons in the possession of iran 40:34.120 --> 40:37.480 There was a pretty good deal developing on the table 40:38.140 --> 40:39.140 such that the 40:39.140 --> 40:45.940 Uh, oh the omani representative, you know, who is helping facilitate the the talks 40:45.940 --> 40:49.160 Went and talked to jd vance try to explain to him 40:49.160 --> 40:54.420 What was going on that it looked like it was a genuine breakthrough and and incidentally you can say 40:54.420 --> 40:55.820 Oh, well, I've 40:56.360 --> 41:02.020 You can say a lot of things about iran like. Oh, well, they can't be trusted to keep this or that 41:02.780 --> 41:06.060 But really which which is the side that can't be trusted by the way 41:06.700 --> 41:10.440 I was I'm here in las vegas. I was waiting to get my rental car the other day 41:10.440 --> 41:14.380 So I'm stupidly reading the news on twitter. You know, which is where I you know 41:14.380 --> 41:19.100 I I get a lot of newsletter ideas. I read what people I I follow right 41:19.740 --> 41:22.320 And and somehow I was in this thread 41:22.920 --> 41:29.660 Where in which somebody described iran as 90 million radicalized islamists 41:30.300 --> 41:32.540 And I thought it is unbelievable 41:33.380 --> 41:36.180 What americans have allowed themselves to be 41:36.180 --> 41:40.720 Snookered into belief. I mean even the official position of the u.s. Government is not 41:41.300 --> 41:45.100 That iran is 90 million radicalized islamists 41:45.660 --> 41:50.180 I don't know where that came from. I don't even think mark levin thinks that because remember after all 41:50.180 --> 41:55.520 Initially, they wanted to quote liberate these people which means they believe at least some fraction of them 41:55.520 --> 42:01.800 Uh, it are not quote radicalized islamists if you look at or go to tehran 42:01.800 --> 42:03.960 That is not what you encounter 42:04.640 --> 42:11.080 But yet for some reason I've somebody put it really well that we have a a chunk of america 42:11.080 --> 42:13.680 That is so, uh 42:13.680 --> 42:19.940 Misled that they brainwash themselves. They propagandize themselves with arguments that our own 42:20.560 --> 42:27.080 Uh, it isn't isn't even making but anyway, I'm throwing too much at you at once, but it for some reason that 42:27.780 --> 42:31.580 That it enraged me so much that this person is so out of it 42:31.580 --> 42:36.120 And yet that person has just as much of vote as you do john hoffman 42:36.960 --> 42:37.440 Oh 42:38.060 --> 42:44.460 Iran is ideologically diverse, you know, uh, there's a lot of genuine opposition to the regime and the people 42:44.460 --> 42:46.600 A lot of people do not want clerical rule 42:46.600 --> 42:50.160 Of course, the the regime does have a certain base within the country 42:50.160 --> 42:50.800 but 42:51.600 --> 42:58.120 The story of iran for anybody who studies iran will tell you what the the very first thing is diversity 42:58.120 --> 43:05.100 I mean even the 1979 revolution itself was not a predetermined islamist victory 43:05.100 --> 43:08.840 There was a lot of competing factions nationalists communists 43:08.840 --> 43:13.640 Uh, just you know ordinary folks middle class. Um, you know 43:13.640 --> 43:18.660 So this idea that we're up against a country of 93 million 43:20.400 --> 43:25.600 Radicals who want to get a a nuke tomorrow to wipe out every american is just 43:26.400 --> 43:30.060 Beyond the path. Let me ask you a personal question. Uh 43:32.240 --> 43:38.700 I always want to know why people wind up doing what they do what gets them in the position they're in and 43:39.220 --> 43:41.260 In your life and so here you are of 43:42.040 --> 43:44.760 Research scholar in in foreign policy 43:45.410 --> 43:47.980 Now is that an interest that you developed? 43:48.600 --> 43:54.860 Uh in school was it an interest you developed because you were influenced by some great thinker 43:54.860 --> 43:59.920 Was it an interest you developed because of an event that occurred that made you think 44:00.590 --> 44:04.300 A lot of people have really bad misconceptions about foreign policy 44:04.300 --> 44:09.080 And I want to contribute to overturning those I'm just curious about what was it in your particular case 44:10.820 --> 44:12.920 It's hard to pin it on any one 44:13.940 --> 44:18.000 Individual factor, but when I was when I was in high school, you know at my generation 44:18.620 --> 44:20.900 I'm 30 years old. We grew up only 44:22.460 --> 44:25.060 Yeah, yes, don't let the lack of hair 44:25.560 --> 44:30.060 Fool you, uh, well, I mean, I don't know when I hear re you know, you're a research fellow 44:30.060 --> 44:35.200 I don't know for some reason that that there's so much dignity to that that I assume you have to be 40 to be 44:35.760 --> 44:41.220 Okay, no, so I I finished I finished my phc program early. Thankfully, um 44:42.120 --> 44:50.580 But you know for me it was growing up primarily in post 9 11 america and being sold a bill of goods 44:51.560 --> 45:00.320 That just when you start pulling at the threads of these narratives, they just collapse almost immediately and you know, I 45:01.060 --> 45:02.320 went off to to 45:02.320 --> 45:06.120 George mason and started studying this and had some great professors 45:06.960 --> 45:10.760 And you know, it was one of the few things I was good at 45:11.620 --> 45:19.040 And then George mason offered for me to stay and do a master's in a phd program and you know to me 45:21.080 --> 45:23.180 Preserving the american republic 45:25.500 --> 45:27.960 Requires more perhaps than anything else 45:28.900 --> 45:35.480 Curtailing the warfare state abroad and this is something I genuinely believe in and it's something that you know 45:35.480 --> 45:37.960 the kato institute believes in and 45:38.580 --> 45:42.620 It was kind of you know, when I left my phd program and came to kato 45:42.620 --> 45:49.760 It was it was a a great home for me to push for a foreign policy that works on behalf of the american people 45:49.760 --> 45:51.140 not elites in washington 45:51.720 --> 45:53.920 She so you must have been five or six 45:54.520 --> 45:55.940 Uh when 9 11 happened 45:56.480 --> 45:57.280 Yes, six 45:58.560 --> 45:59.040 so 45:59.040 --> 46:01.120 Now I was 46:01.120 --> 46:06.120 When it's not the same thing obviously, but I remember being eight years old when john lennon was shot 46:06.120 --> 46:09.840 And I came home from school and my mother told me all about it 46:09.840 --> 46:14.140 And I vaguely knew john lennon was in the Beatles, but it didn't really mean anything to me 46:14.140 --> 46:22.080 But I still distinctly remember my mother telling me about that and that was of much less significance than 9 11 46:22.080 --> 46:26.220 As a six-year-old, I'm just curious like were they talking about it in school 46:26.220 --> 46:29.720 Did they know how to talk to six-year-olds about something like that? 46:30.840 --> 46:36.860 The only thing that I remember from that day was school ending us getting out early 46:37.360 --> 46:37.840 um 46:37.840 --> 46:38.840 and 46:39.300 --> 46:44.980 My parents being very concerned because we had family members who lived in and around dc and up in new york, so 46:46.340 --> 46:48.400 That's really all I 46:49.020 --> 46:50.740 remember from that day 46:51.280 --> 46:52.820 But I think growing up 46:53.460 --> 46:54.820 hearing these narratives 46:55.540 --> 47:01.640 About you know existential threats in the middle east or you know the narrative that we just spoke about you know 47:01.640 --> 47:06.440 90 million islamist extremists in iran ready to you know come at our throats 47:07.060 --> 47:07.320 it 47:08.180 --> 47:14.960 For me these narratives were often put forward or the special relationship with israel put forward and just taken as a given 47:14.960 --> 47:23.820 Uh, nobody you know growing up especially you know challenge these narratives wanted to get you know behind the real roots of the problems 47:23.820 --> 47:26.060 And to me it was just far too simplistic 47:26.640 --> 47:31.320 Uh, and I think we see now today the united states 47:31.940 --> 47:38.980 Continuing a lot of the mistakes and failed policies that led to you know previous disasters 47:39.780 --> 47:40.120 but 47:40.760 --> 47:44.060 I think the american people if washington isn't changing 47:44.960 --> 47:52.020 I think the american people from the bottom up are starting to recognize the disasters of us foreign policy 47:52.020 --> 47:57.620 And I think are truly my generation and the generation below me are truly set up 47:58.280 --> 48:03.220 Yeah, I understand that I I'm telling you and I sorry. I don't mean to sound like your dad 48:03.800 --> 48:04.080 but 48:04.880 --> 48:09.740 But I you know I was I was already teaching at the time of 9 11 48:10.340 --> 48:12.660 And I'm I'm telling you the before and after 48:13.220 --> 48:14.500 it really was a 48:15.140 --> 48:16.760 It was a major change 48:16.760 --> 48:19.080 I think in the psyche of americans because 48:19.080 --> 48:25.060 We really had had this kind of glorious independence from the rest of the world in the sense that we had the 48:25.060 --> 48:27.380 You know, we had the two oceans the whole thing 48:27.380 --> 48:33.980 You know and and then suddenly this radical vulnerability appeared on the on the scene 48:34.580 --> 48:40.140 And at that time of course a lot of americans could not for the life of them fathom what was going on 48:40.860 --> 48:43.380 Uh virtually none of them knew anything about 48:44.040 --> 48:49.580 The the recent history of the past several decades that would have involved a foe 48:50.840 --> 48:55.440 That despised the u.s regime that much that it would carry out an atrocity like that 48:56.060 --> 48:56.320 and 48:57.000 --> 48:59.200 That was a moment where um 48:59.820 --> 49:01.420 I remember thinking to myself well 49:02.160 --> 49:06.120 I mean for for all we knew this was going to keep happening. There were going to be more attacks 49:06.120 --> 49:07.820 You know, we how how were we to know? 49:07.820 --> 49:14.840 But it really was was a question of well now the question is has to be posed to america has to be posed 49:14.840 --> 49:18.000 It's either it's either uh live like this 49:18.680 --> 49:22.880 And maintain your empire or be a be a republic again be a normal country 49:23.580 --> 49:27.820 And you know, there's no guarantee that bad guys won't still come after you but um 49:29.720 --> 49:36.980 The the the history of u.s involvement abroad over the past 75 years is one of 49:38.120 --> 49:45.800 Massive goodwill toward the united states in the middle east massive goodwill being not only squandered 49:45.800 --> 49:51.760 But completely inverted to the point where uh, the u.s is is viewed so negatively 49:52.610 --> 49:54.160 in place after place 49:54.810 --> 49:55.120 that 49:55.120 --> 49:57.060 Yes, I understand if 49:57.710 --> 50:02.520 If somebody did something bad to me or bombed, you know my town 50:03.170 --> 50:07.100 I wouldn't just go out and shoot random people in response to that I get that 50:07.100 --> 50:13.760 Like that is an alien way to to handle situations like this. I totally get that. I don't excuse that in any way 50:14.460 --> 50:16.920 But what but what I was thinking at the time was 50:17.420 --> 50:21.080 It's not a matter of excusing it. It's a matter of just knowing this is going to happen 50:21.080 --> 50:24.980 If you play the empire game, this is going to happen 50:25.580 --> 50:31.760 And so the question is is it worth it to the american public not to policy makers not to 50:32.370 --> 50:37.440 War profiteers not to foreign countries. Is it in the interest of the united states? 50:38.200 --> 50:45.200 To to play the empire game when we know what the collateral damage of it of it is apart from the the expense 50:45.690 --> 50:46.740 the loss of life 50:47.330 --> 50:52.640 The the pointlessness of it all the the opportunity cost all the things that could have been built 50:52.640 --> 50:56.180 But it weren't built because the money was squandered at some point 50:56.180 --> 50:57.860 We have to have this conversation 50:57.860 --> 51:03.860 Do we want an empire or not and even after 9 11 in the years that went by 51:04.460 --> 51:09.400 Nobody sat down with america and spoke frankly and honestly and said 51:10.180 --> 51:11.440 If we want an empire 51:12.260 --> 51:13.340 They're going to be costs 51:14.020 --> 51:19.400 It was I guess I guess ron paul came the closest to in effect putting that to america 51:19.840 --> 51:25.880 How much do you really want this empire doesn't doesn't benefit you in any way the british empire did not 51:26.180 --> 51:34.100 Benefit the average person in britain in any way other than making him feel puffed up and proud of himself. Well, that's cool, but 51:34.800 --> 51:37.440 But in terms of your pocketbook, this is not helping you 51:38.360 --> 51:44.340 We don't get these conversations because we're never spoken to frankly by anybody in the regime and why would we be 51:44.340 --> 51:48.100 We're spoken to in cartoons. We're spoken to in ways that flatter us 51:48.100 --> 51:53.460 Oh, the only reason that our government might be disliked around the world is that we're all just super awesome 51:53.460 --> 51:55.640 And they're envious of us. It's all just crazy nonsense 51:55.640 --> 52:00.160 It turns out the rest of the world doesn't like hillary clinton any more than we do, you know 52:02.300 --> 52:04.360 Oh, I mean you're you're not wrong and 52:05.340 --> 52:09.140 The only thing that you know, a lot of times i'm asked in interviews, you know 52:09.640 --> 52:14.420 About the war and stuff like that and it is all very, you know depressing and a lot of doom and gloom 52:14.980 --> 52:21.320 But I think there is room for for optimism if we look at polls in the united states 52:21.320 --> 52:23.060 I think the american people 52:23.580 --> 52:25.560 Yeah, like I think this is 52:26.060 --> 52:27.560 Coming to the forefront 52:28.120 --> 52:30.680 whereby americans are fed up with this 52:30.680 --> 52:38.300 They they recognize this disconnect between uh, uh empire and republic and 52:38.720 --> 52:43.480 If it and I think this whole ethos of of america first, you know 52:43.480 --> 52:45.440 If american interests are the safety 52:46.140 --> 52:48.720 Prosperity and freedom of the american people 52:49.280 --> 52:55.100 I believe empire undermines all three of them and I think the american people are starting to agree 52:55.100 --> 52:58.020 It creates enemies faster than we can deter them 52:58.480 --> 53:05.040 It squanders our resources and it grows the executive and and the overall, you know 53:05.040 --> 53:08.820 National security state here at home to the detriment of our civil liberties 53:09.420 --> 53:09.720 so 53:10.340 --> 53:11.200 and I think 53:11.780 --> 53:18.800 We're starting to see the formation of a very interesting coalition left and right and you know academic nerds like myself 53:18.800 --> 53:24.660 Uh who are starting to push back and are are starting to get real traction 53:25.880 --> 53:34.120 I guess the the remaining problem is that even though you're right about the the changes in attitudes and what the public opinion polling shows 53:35.420 --> 53:40.760 It's it's like it doesn't matter which side you pull the lever for because you're still going to get those policies 53:41.200 --> 53:43.540 And it's the the question is are these shifting? 53:44.300 --> 53:49.480 Are these trends in public opinion ever going to manifest themselves in real life in real policy making? 53:49.800 --> 53:51.840 And I mean maybe eventually 53:52.380 --> 53:54.060 But but who knows how long that'll take 53:55.120 --> 54:01.000 No, that's the problem is is you know, the political capital is not behind this 54:01.000 --> 54:07.220 Uh new way of thinking yet, uh, I think we're moving in that direction. I get asked all the time 54:07.220 --> 54:12.060 You know, when do you think this change will happen? And I I mean it's truly impossible to know 54:12.720 --> 54:14.420 but the more that 54:15.200 --> 54:21.560 You know that that the american people are able to put forward these alternative ideas challenge 54:22.140 --> 54:26.960 These conventional narratives not be pressured into silence and you know to really 54:26.960 --> 54:33.560 Uh question what should be america's role in the world? What are we after? What does it mean? 54:34.120 --> 54:36.720 Uh to be an american and so on and so forth 54:37.220 --> 54:41.560 I think more people are asking those questions today and 54:41.560 --> 54:47.060 I'm hopeful in the sense that this leads to better policies even if 54:47.060 --> 54:54.620 We're fighting an uphill battle and it takes a while. I think now this constituency cannot be ignored 54:55.260 --> 54:57.040 John, how do people follow you? 54:59.180 --> 55:08.300 Sure, so they can follow me uh on twitter my twitter handle is at hoffman h o f f m a n the number eight and then john j o m 55:09.540 --> 55:13.340 All right, so i'll link to that tom was a comm slash 27 47 55:14.000 --> 55:14.440 um 55:14.440 --> 55:18.900 Well, I appreciate your time as I say I wanted to talk about things that 55:19.360 --> 55:25.480 Would still be of importance even if by the time people hear this the whole thing has somehow miraculously wound down 55:25.480 --> 55:30.940 These are still open questions that we're going to have to reckon with one way or another so john hoppin. Thanks so much 55:31.940 --> 55:33.360 Thanks tom always an honor 55:34.120 --> 55:35.660 Thank you ladies and gentlemen 55:37.820 --> 55:43.100 Make yourself and those you love less vulnerable to the regime both mentally and physically 55:43.100 --> 55:49.880 Get more forbidden information at tom's free books dot com and be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen 55:49.880 --> 55:51.400 See you next time 55:59.790 --> 56:06.970 Like the sound of the tom wood show my audio production is provided by podsworth media check them out at podsworth dot com 56:07.570 --> 56:11.610 Enter code woods 50 to get 50 off your first order 56:11.610 --> 56:17.190 If your recording sounds rough the podsworth app can make it not only listenable but professional 56:17.710 --> 56:23.950 Remember when you use code woods 50 you'll get half off your first order and you'll also be supporting this show