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Welcome back to the deling pod near Oliver. You were about to start a
conversation and I stopped you because I wanted to have this on air about
when it was we did the podcast live event. I think it might have been,
I mean, obviously I should have researched this. I think it might have
been in 20...22?
Gosh. Well, I think about it. It would be that it was the live event
in a venue in London that was most recent rather than anything we've
done remotely like this. But it's certainly years since we did this.
And it's...one of the things I wanted to talk about was really to
catch up with you on where you are now because I remember I was at
the time, even though I was a newbie to this crazy world, I was
further down the rabbit hole than you at that time. And I was trying
to tease you on stage. I mean, not to annoy you, but I was trying
to take you further than perhaps you were ready for at that stage.
You asked me where I am now. I'm completely open minded.
One of my symptoms is lack of certainty.
Yeah.
Full stop. And there's almost nothing that I would dismiss out of hand.
I'm very much in a state of mind where I'm interested and
enthusiastically listening to anything anyone has to say.
And I don't trouble myself too much with, you know, proving
and disproving anything if you want to get pedantic about it is
very hard. I mean, ultimately, you're taking whatever, gravity
or... As a non-scientist and non-specialist like
myself, I mean, I have to trust some of what I'm told because
I don't have the means available to, you know, to go after evidence
in an absolute sense. And so when it comes to what were once
bracketed, well, which are still bracketed as conspiracy theories
and content that I would have until very recently have dismissed
as hokum, I don't have much in that file now, if anything.
It's all open now.
But you trust the guy in the wig, in the long wig.
Who's that?
I'm gravity. Newton.
Not necessarily no. I mean, I'm just...
There are things that I know are there.
There's an effect that I feel there are phenomenon that I sense.
Yeah.
You know, phenomenon that I sense.
But I'm not big on belief, but I'm strong on faith.
I don't mean a religious faith, but I...
You know, as the WB Yates poem has it, you know, the best
lack all conviction while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.
I'm a bit there. I lack conviction because I've been so rattled
over the last few years that I don't want...
It's like going from... It'd be like getting divorced,
having found out that your spouse had been serially unfaithful
and then just immediately getting married again.
I'm wary once bitten.
Yeah. Well, funny enough, I was having that conversation
with another friend recently, another sort of fellow rabbit whoreless.
And we were talking about how you can tell whether somebody is authentic
or not in our realm, in our sphere.
Not that I believe in spheres.
And... Or globes anyway.
And he said that one of the things...
One of the hallmarks of the true truth seeker is permanent skepticism
and a lack of dogmatism.
I think dogmatism is usually a tell that somebody is either compromised
or at least they haven't learned the lesson yet.
Yeah. I mean, dogma, I'm not... I do not adhere to dogma.
Even skepticism, I find that slightly pejorative.
It has slightly negative overtones about it.
I know it needn't.
But when someone says, insists to me that the following is true,
I just... I try not even to be skeptical.
I just listen to them and let it lie as a possibility.
I've just become completely open-minded.
Sure, but you must have started heading towards a grand...
It's a dangerous way to start a sentence, James. I must. Must I?
No, you don't have to. But I'd be surprised if you didn't.
I think there was something slightly...
Well, odd about you.
In as much as...
Surely the curiosity that has led you to your position now
is saying to you, well, the truth exists.
Don't you kind of want to find out what the truth is?
Yes, I believe... I believe that there is truth.
But I think it's hard to find.
I'm not... I don't mean that.
I just... I'm so much more open-minded now than I was.
And I take almost nothing as read.
I'm prepared to believe in alternative...
However many alternative explanations,
I hear for a phenomenon or a sequence of events.
I'm prepared to listen to them.
But I don't come down hard with certainty on anything.
Yeah.
I'm just... Like I say, I'm just rattled.
That's where I am. You said, where are you now? I'm rattled.
Yeah.
And I don't mind. I don't mind.
I feel quite a load off my shoulders, I suppose.
One of the things I did...
We met because when we all started going down the rabbit hole together
around about the time of the Covid madness,
we were sort of flailing around for people that we could trust
with whom he has something in common
that would give us an insight into what was going on.
And there was this weird...
Mostly our friends and families didn't follow us down the rabbit hole
and thought we were nutcases.
And we found ourselves in this strange room
full of all these people that we never met before
and turned out to have at least one big thing in common with us
which was that we'd all gone down the chute at the circus
at the fun fair and we didn't know why.
And one thing I noticed was that from each profession
one person was given to us to be a...
Well, not a skeptic, but to have woken up.
So from tennis...
Actually, I don't know about tennis because you had sort of packed...
Novak Djokovic.
But I'm not sure about them, but definitely from the realm of football
you had...
What's his face?
My brain's called blank.
Which realm?
Football.
Matt LaTisier.
There you are.
You had Matt LaTisier.
I mean, I didn't know anything about football,
but I understand from people who know about football
that Matt LaTisier was really good.
He wasn't just a kind of a semi-shit player
that we now know of down the rabbit hole
because he's down the rabbit hole.
He was really, really good.
So...
And then...
What else to be...
Well, we had me from the mainstream media.
I don't think anyone else really from the...
Certainly not from the...
We might have some from the tabloid end,
but we didn't have anyone from the kind of
spectatory telegraphy end.
So I was that person.
And so on and on it went.
We had from the realm of pharma,
we had Mike Eden.
And there was you.
And you...
What's my realm?
Well, you were the guy from the BBC kind of lifestyle.
Lifestyle?
Well, I call it light documentary.
Yeah, okay.
So you were the token guy from the light documentary thing.
And you must have...
I mean, like, you must look around now
and pinch yourself.
Look at all these light documentary characters
who used to be your fellow travelers
and your comrades.
And now, I bet, do they even talk to you?
Some of them have blocked me.
Yeah.
I mean, I find that I was having this conversation...
A period we have this conversation with
my wife and other people.
The act of blocking,
for those unfamiliar with it,
it's an option on X, previously known as Twitter,
where you can prevent someone from seeing anything
you put up on that platform.
And it's called blocking.
But it's a very personal attack, really,
because the only person that knows about the block
is the blocky and the blocker.
It's not like you can look someone up
and see who blocks them.
Or you can't see who a person has blocked
unless they tell you.
You know, so the act of someone blocking someone else
is a very direct attack, mano a mano.
It's just, I want you to know that I, you know,
I'm shutting you out.
But yes, I mean, people that I previously worked with,
you definitely have blocked me, which I find...
And without exceptions, people that I wasn't following anyway.
It's very funny.
But yes, I...
That's been a big thing for me, that I, at the time,
when it all started to happen for me six years ago,
I genuinely waited and assumed that some of the silverbacks
would step forth and do what had to be done.
Especially people who had, over the years,
if not decades, cultivated a reputation as sort of a maverick,
a bit of a rebel, you know, a bit sweary,
a bit ready to get up in the face of the man.
Maybe there were people for whom that was part of their shtick.
Did you think about Gordon Ramsay?
Well, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I just, yeah, but not, I mean, I'm not singling him out,
but yeah, he would be a perfect example.
But, and then, you know, obviously now he's advertising,
I can't believe it's not butter.
And I'm, you know, like the rest of us,
I'm like the rest of us out there as, you know,
as a raving anti-semi, whatever, anti-vaxxer,
all the rest of it.
And I, but at the time I thought,
these people will step forward.
People with clout, people with reputations
that give them the clout to say,
hold on a minute, this is out of hand.
This is out of order.
We cannot, as a civilization, go down these roads.
And they didn't.
And I've used analogy before.
For me, it was a bit like, you know,
the classic airplane disaster movie
where the pilot's dead, the co-pilot's dead,
and the stewardesses are, you know, are incapacitated
and some, you know, you know,
lug from the cabin, from coach has to come forward
and take control of the plane
because there's nobody else.
And I still can't believe that after all this time,
I'll let you say the people that were my fellow travelers,
many of them far more, you know,
far, far bigger names than me still are,
are still there, you know.
And increasingly, I noticed that, you know,
the faces on television, you know,
they so remind me of death becomes a, you know,
these increasingly desiccated, superannuated people
that are still doing variations
on the theme that they were doing all those years ago.
And I find it tragic.
I think we're surrept, the people that so many,
in Hollywood, in politics, in various professions,
all these people, and I find them
almost without exception, tragic, you know, jokes.
Except, I mean, I share your feelings
about the disappointment, let's say,
about the failure of people in our realm.
Who should have done what we did and didn't.
But at the same time, you must have come across
the theory that nobody in the realm of entertainment
achieves any level of prominence
without having pre-sold their soul.
That it's part of the deal.
Yes, I'm certainly aware of that.
I'm certainly aware that there are, you know,
deals struck with the devil, so to speak.
I mean, I also will acknowledge openly
that I'm still routinely daily
dismissed as controlled opposition myself
because there is a purity test out there
that I don't think anyone can pass.
You know, everyone is somebody's shill.
Everyone is somebody's, you know, soulless grifter.
You know, so I ignore, I suppose,
because you just have to assert the amount
on a constant basis of, yeah, yeah,
he's sold out to whoever.
And you can't, it's like I say,
it's a purity test that's unpassable.
I agree for a certain,
because I mean, after all,
we're all to a greater or lesser extent
batshit crazy tinfoil hat loons.
So inevitably in that realm,
you're going to get the kind of people
who react, who treat you in the way that they do.
I get this as well.
There is a certain, I'd say we're probably
talking about less than 1%.
We may be talking about even 0.01%
of the awake people out there.
And those people think
Dellingpole, Oxford, mainstream media,
former friends of prime ministers,
MI5 at the very least,
probably possibly lower tier Illuminati.
And they will never think otherwise.
I've even had people do analyses
of my face shape
and they've decided that I'm actually female
or something, yeah.
Interesting.
But I've seen that happening with you as well,
that the purity testing thing going on,
that anyone who achieved any prominence in the BBC,
and you did, I mean, you were a name.
People can still write to you, can't they?
Yes, I was saying, I was middle ranking.
You know, I was never premiership.
I had to watch football either,
but I know what the premiership is.
I was a middle manager.
You know, I was never, you know, on contract.
I was never employed directly by anyone.
I was always self-employed,
and I just used to be hanging about,
waiting on the phone to ring in the classic way.
You know, from my agent to say,
oh, such and such a production
looks like it's going ahead
and you're the named presenter
that they're prepared to entertain for it.
You know, my agent dropped me as well.
Do you think it was,
because you've got that kind of attractive regional accent,
so that must have been part of the pale?
He's not, he hasn't got any...
I used to think, look, before this happened, James,
and I'm not, this is not,
I'm not mining for pity here at all,
because I don't want, I don't feel the need,
but way before, I mean,
right from the beginning of being on television,
I didn't fit within the establishment.
I mean, I became, like I say,
a lower ranking.
I kind of had a, I had an always temporary pass.
You know, I never had my own set of keys.
I was always just had to be accompanied by a member to get in.
But I never fitted,
because, and you say I had a regional accent.
You know, I was never, you know,
you said yourself that you're Oxford and whatever.
I was, I am council house, state school,
Scottish, you know, no letters after my name,
apart from an, you know, an MA from Glasgow Uni,
a thousand years ago,
not an expert, not a lecturer,
no academic credentials.
And long before I got exiled to the purda
of the perdition that I've been put in
by the intelligentsia now,
I never fitted anyway.
I was, I did, I mean, I had as many projects get bended.
I mean, I was on the same, you know, daily rate
from the BBC in 2016 or something
when I did my last gig for them,
as I had been on when I did my very first gig for them
all those years before.
You know, I was just on a day rate that never changed.
I was in, but not in.
I was, I was, I was, I was just hovering on the fringes
and always ready to be, you know, evicted.
Anyway, I think, I think I failed, I failed,
I failed the test anyway long before I came out as a,
you know, a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist,
granny killer.
I mean, I was already not one of us.
Okay.
But even though you were not one of, one of them really,
you at least were on the inside for a while.
And have you ever wondered?
Like I said, accompanied by a member.
You know, I couldn't get through doors on my own.
Right.
But you, but you saw things when you were
accompanied by a member, you do see things
when you're accompanied by a member.
And I'm just wondering, because I'm, I'm often
looking back on my, I mean, I was like, what, 25 years,
30 years in the mainstream media at sort of, you know,
successful columnist level.
And I never noticed at the time that there was anything
rum about the industry that I was operating in.
You know, if somebody had said to me at the time,
you do realize that you're producing propaganda for the,
for this predator class, which, which wants to turn you
and people like you into slaves or to kill you,
have no respect for you.
They hate you.
They like you're part of a lie machine.
People told me that at the time I'd gone,
you're just like a nutcase can spirit spirit weirdo.
And now I'm looking back, thinking about what did I miss?
Was I maybe given clues at the time and stuff?
And anyway, I was wondering whether, whether you ever went
through this process and thought back.
Yeah, I never suspected anything either.
I mean, I didn't, I was oblivious.
I've said this to the blue in the face.
I didn't catch on right away either.
You know, I wouldn't, I was, I was panicked into wanting
my kids out of school and back in the house
because I thought the black death was coming.
I mean, I, I was, I wasn't far, you know,
first out of the traps by any stretch of the imagination.
But at the time I was doing it, no, it never, it never occurred
to me because I was, you know, I was preoccupied
with what I was doing.
And as a lot of self-employed people are,
I was always just looking for the next gig.
And I was desperate enough, you know,
for finances all the time that I wasn't bothering
to second guess whether I thought something was,
you know, for the greater good of the species.
Far less given much house room to the notion
that I was pushing propaganda, which, you know,
I now see that I was a, you know, I was a willing,
a willing dupe or whatever.
I just didn't, I always, I've said over and over,
I thought that they were out there really
with our best interests at heart.
I didn't, it never occurred to me
that they might be trying to kill me
or sterilize my children.
It never occurred to me.
That, I think that's why, in a way,
you and I are, have a useful role to play
in that we can, because there's a lot of,
a lot of people listening to this,
who are going to be, who are going to, yeah, loads.
Neil, you have no idea how big I am.
Actually, you've no idea how big I would be
if I weren't so heavily suppressed.
I think that's certainly true.
I think I do quite well.
You probably do alright too, but we'll never get there
because we're suppressed.
But the thing I'm, I'm often trying to explain to people.
I was on this, I was doing this guy's podcast the other day
and he was full of hatred, hatred for Douglas Murray
and he wanted to tell me how much he hated Douglas Murray
and he wanted to tell me how horrible Toby Young was.
He was really angry about Toby Young.
Do you, do you, do you come across Toby Young?
I do, I do.
I used to, I think across these, I did, I did.
Let me think, I was on the Mark Stein show.
Yeah, yeah.
When, when he, indeed when he was with GB News.
Right, again.
In that kind of, you know, self-cannibalizing thing
we used to be each other's guests to some extent
and I was a guest on Mark's show when he was still with the,
with the show.
Yeah.
And the other, or at least one of the other guests on the same night
was Toby Young and Mark took us both out to dinner.
Oh yeah.
After.
So I spent, you know, a very pleasant couple of hours
in their company.
Yeah.
Chatted to Toby.
And apart from that, and then when I did get, well,
when I was having some of my early troubles with getting
cancelled and accused of this, that and the other,
you know, I was, I had joined the, what's that?
Free speech union.
And so I was able to, I was able to cash in my chips
and get help.
And I have to say Toby was extremely helpful
and was a sympathetic ear.
Yes, exactly.
So you make my point for me.
And I was, I was, I was trying to explain to this,
this angry man.
If you think that this world is all about people
consciously selling their souls and consciously lying
to their audiences and being,
being deliberately, willfully evil.
You misunderstand the mechanism by which these people
consolidate their power and rule over us.
If Toby Young is a good example of this,
because I mean, I was, we were university contemporaries
and we used to do a podcast together
and we were mates.
I mean, you know, we probably meet maybe once a year,
possibly by accident and have a drink and a chat.
And Toby Young is, even though I think he is
basically shilling for Israel, for example,
and shilling for all manner of causes
which I think are morally suspect.
I don't think Toby is even aware of this.
I just think he's just a guy trying to make a buck,
trying to be, he likes being in the House of Lords.
He likes being able to afford expensive wine,
as he's written about in the spectator.
He thinks Israel is good because it's,
it's kind of like a bastion of Western civilization
in the Middle East and the Israelis are just like us,
except they're Jewish and so on.
He's never got beyond that stage.
Well, you'll have seen, well,
either you have or you haven't that clip of Noam Chomsky.
Now, open brackets, you know,
we've all had the opportunity to revisit our opinions
about Noam Chomsky closed brackets.
But nonetheless, he skewered Andrew Maher very effectively.
You did?
I can't remember what it was about.
We're, you know, he's suggesting that,
well, it's the propaganda machine
and Andrew Maher, you know, bristles and says,
well, you know, I don't have anyone telling me what to say.
And Noam Chomsky in that kind of gotcha moment says,
well, yes, but you wouldn't be sitting where you are
unless you had been filtered through the system
and you were saying what you say anyway
without any need for coercion on our part,
because the bigger project has worked on you
and you now, without us having to put your arm up your back
or threaten your children, you're doing it
because you believe it.
That's why you occupy the seat that you do, Andrew.
And, you know, there's a momentary, you know,
you can see it on Andrew Maher's face
where he certainly seems to get Noam Chomsky's point.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does add an extra layer of nuance to it, doesn't it?
The fact that we know that Chomsky
was off on regular duels to Epstein Island.
Nevertheless, just because you're an Epstein habituator
doesn't mean to say that you can't occasionally
make sensible points about how the world works.
Well, even a stop clock tells the right time twice a day.
Yeah.
But I mean, so you said you're still not,
I kind of imagine you might have become a Christian by now
just because a lot of us have.
I'm not, I have no, that's a subject in which
I have boundless, limitless interest,
but I'm not, if it's an official religion,
it's not for me.
I believe, I think the Christianity as it's offered
in terms of whether it be from Rome
or whether it be the reformed church,
whether it be church of Scotland, whether it be whatever,
I think Christianity is the perpetuation of the Roman Imperium.
The one thing went into the shadows
and the other thing emerged into the light.
So Christianity was the perpetuation of the Roman Imperium.
But there's nothing, but all,
I think all the organized religions,
be it Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam or Judaism
or Seventh Day Adventists or Scientologists, Mormons,
whatever, Methodists, I think these are all just,
in that area, I mean in that terrain,
I'm firmly of the David Ike constituency where he says,
so I'll just attract.
But I don't, so I'm not, so I have faith.
I have faith and I do as much as I can
in terms of the reading that I do
and the path that I follow.
I know there's truth out there,
but in as far as it goes, I think there's a,
I think the most, well,
possibly the most profound lines in the Bible
are the opening of John's Gospel.
The light shines in the darkness
and the darkness comprehended it not,
but which I interpret as meaning
whenever the truth appears as a kindled flame,
the darkness seeks to smother it.
And I think the truth has manifested
in what I would regard, let's say,
as the actual Jesus message
has been utterly traduced over the last 2,000 years
to the point where it's just become another noose
to put around people's necks.
But that does not in any way impugn
what Jesus said.
It's just that it's very hard to find out what he did say.
I suppose when I was asked,
when I said whether you become a Christian or not,
I wasn't necessarily saying
I had expected Neil to become Orthodox
or Catholic or Baptist or whatever.
I possibly jumped down your throat a bit there, James.
Well, no, not particularly.
I actually wondered, well, I found it a sort of
an unhelpful digression
because it stopped me,
or delayed me from reaching the point
I was trying to make.
But by the way, do you believe
Jesus was the Son of God or not?
Well, only in as much as from what I gather,
he only said that we all are.
Sam 82 and all of that,
you are all sons and daughters of the Most High.
I think that's what I mean about what he actually said
is hard to discern in amongst the redacted
and rewritten and transliterated
and interpolated pages
that we see bound within the edifice
called the Holy Bible.
But I mean, I don't think even, I don't think, you know,
it's almost, it's a difficult question to answer
because I don't think it's a question that he ever asked himself.
Right.
He may or may not have been,
but he didn't as far as I am concerned,
explicitly make a great distinction
between himself and everybody else.
Right.
Now, I wasn't really trying to put you on the spot.
I was just trying to see, trying to place you on the kind of,
on the spectrum.
And I believe in the transcendent absolute,
I believe in Sunyata for the, you know, for the Buddhists.
And I don't think there's any distinction between that
and the, you know, the apophatic message
that, you know, Pseudo Dionysius the Areopagite
had to offer.
I don't know what apophatic means.
What does that mean?
Well, it's an acceptance that there's absolutely nothing
that we can say or know about the divine
because it doesn't, there's no words you can use.
It's ineffable.
Right.
So there's the via...
Global warming is a massive con.
There was no evidence whatsoever
that man-made climate change is a problem
that is going to kill us,
that we need to amend our lifestyle
in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff
to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition
of my 2012 classic book Watermelons
which captures the story of how
some really nasty people decided to invent
the global warming scare
in order to fleece you,
to take away your freedoms,
to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011 actually,
the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when the people behind the climate change scan
got caught red-handed,
tinkering with the data,
torturing till it screamed
in a scandal that I helped christen Climategate.
So I give you the background
to the skull-juggery that went on
in these seats of learning
where these supposed experts were informing us
we've got to act now.
I rumbled their scan.
I then asked the question,
okay, if it is a scan,
who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is,
but I've written two new chapters,
one at the beginning and one at the end,
explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands up.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from
jamesdellingpole.co.uk
forward slash shop.
You'll probably find that,
just go to my website and look for it,
jamesdellingpole.co.uk
and I hope it helps keep you informed
and gives you the material you need
to bring round all those
people who are still persuaded that
oh, it's a disaster,
we must amend our ways and appease the gods,
there we go, it's a scan.
Right.
He may or may not have been,
but he didn't as far as I am concerned,
explicitly make a great distinction
between himself and everybody else.
Right.
Now, I wasn't really trying to put you on the spot,
I was just trying to see,
trying to place you on the kind of,
on the spectrum.
I believe in the transcendent absolute
I believe in
Sunyata for the,
you know, for the Buddhists
and I don't think there's any distinction between that
and the,
you know, the apophatic message that,
you know,
pseudo-dionysius the areopagite
had to offer.
I don't know what apophatic means.
What does that mean?
Well,
it's an acceptance that
there's absolutely nothing
that we can say or know about the divine
because it doesn't,
there's no words you can use.
It's ineffable.
Right.
So there's the via negativa
and there's the negative way and the positive way.
There's cataphatic is the alternative to apophatic.
Cataphatic theology as laid out is
the things you can say about God.
He is omniscient.
He is, you know,
but the apophatic line says
you can't say anything about God.
It's not possible.
Words do not describe
and we lack the comprehension
to know anything about God
and Dionysius,
the pseudo-dionysius the areopagite
put all that in some books
that were written probably in the five or six hundreds
and then surfaced in Europe
in the high medieval period
and they affected the thinking of people like
I don't know, you know,
Albertus Magnus and Maester Eckhart
and Thomas Aquinas and so on
and these people.
So I think I'm more inclined towards
and Sunyatta is the same.
I mean, that's that Buddhist idea
that there isn't anything you can say.
Augustine of Hippo said,
you know, someone said to him,
what do you understand about time?
And Augustine said,
I know, but when you ask me, I don't.
Which is a kind of an expression
of the apophatic mind set.
Right.
Well, there's some further reading I've got to do.
Yet another kind of rabbit hole,
an intellectual rabbit hole I've got to explore.
So the only reason I was asking you about
the question question is because
a lot of people who enter the conspiracy realm,
their questions increasingly boil down to
OK, if all this terrible stuff is going on in the world,
why are they doing it?
And who are they?
Who is doing this stuff and why?
And people come up with various theories.
But a lot of us, me, definitely,
come to the conclusion that
the bad guys are either descendants of
or, yes, the descendants of fallen angels
and that their boss is Lucifer, Stroke, Satan.
They seem to be a sort of similar entity
with perhaps different facets of their personalities.
Lucifer is more about the light and the intellect
and Satan is more about darkness and other stuff.
But anyway, if you accept that, as I certainly do,
that Satan is the CEO on Earth by God's permission,
you kind of want to understand how the company operates.
And it seems to me that the company operates
on a need-to-know basis.
So clearly Satan, he knows what's going on
and so do his left-tenants.
I mean, they're just sitting around in their boardrooms.
They're going to the Bilderberg group and stuff like that.
They're in no doubt that their job is to poison,
poison the slave, et cetera, et cetera.
All the things they do.
But then you go further down the pyramid
and people do the bad stuff that they do
because they think stuff like,
well, I want to make my wife happy.
I want a better life for my children.
It's how the game works.
Everyone else is doing it.
It's just what you've got to do to get on.
At that level, people aren't saying,
yeah, well, of course, I love doing evil
because I'm wicked and I've solved my...
It doesn't work like that.
And I think the nature of evil is misunderstood
by a lot of people on our side of the argument.
They point to Tobi or whoever or Netanyahu
and they go, I hate these people because they are baddies.
And it's not as simple as that.
I mean, they are baddies, de facto.
But they're not necessarily aware of it.
I mean, Netanyahu probably.
Most people aren't.
Don't you think it's a bit...
We already touched on some of the explanations for that
when the thing about Andrew Maher
and being skewered by Noam Chomsky.
He thinks he's being Andrew Maher
just to use...
He believes that he's worked the things out for himself
and that he is a critical thinker maybe
and that he's drawn his...
But as Noam Chomsky said, well, no, but you've been selected.
You just don't know you've been selected
but they're quite happy for you to sit in that chair
because you will without prompting say the things that we want said.
And so I think in the kind of people you're talking about,
the kind of middle management factotum figures
that are doing the things that are bad for us,
they probably think they're just doing, like you say,
that they're satisfying the requirements
of their annual performance review,
that they're looking to get a bonus this year
and they think anyway that what they're doing is broadly okay,
but they are certainly not in any way privy
to the details of what's really going on.
And if you go all the way back to the sort of Adam Wieshocht,
the Illuminati, the papers that were whatever came to light
in Bavaria in 1786, two or three years before...
When the guy was struck by lightning.
Ah, yeah.
And that seemed...
How cool is that?
And that seemed to...
Well, it's all a bit...
You do wonder about why these things come to light
when they do and is it organic and spontaneous
or is it...
It's like the man with no name,
the World War II legend of the false plans for D-Day.
The guy fan washed up on a beach.
Yeah, and it sold the Germans the wrong idea ahead of D-Day
and so on.
You don't know why things come to light when they do,
but what I was going to say was the strategy
as laid out by Adam Wieshocht, whoever he was
and whoever his ultimate bosses were,
if he wasn't the ultimate boss,
was that it was a net.
It was a net of conspiracy.
And each person in the net
was only aware of a handful of other people
and they knew that those people were watching them
and reporting on their behavior
in the same way that they were expected
to watch the handful of people around...
And they all reported on each other.
You know, that kind of...
Who guards the guards kind of...
And so, and according to the Wieshocht papers,
it was all about these people were just functionaries.
They were never made privy to the big plan
and they were doing certain things
and it spread into freemasonry
and it co-opted in a sort of a,
you know, a kind of a metastasizing cancer way
into the freemasonry
and it took over that because it was structured
in much the same way.
I mean, your average freemason attending the lodge
every month or whatever is utterly unaware of anything
other than what they're made aware of.
Like you say, that's a long ramble
but I'm basically agreeing with you
and saying that these people that we get invited to look at,
be it Boris Johnson or Benjamin Netanyahu or anything,
they're doing what they're doing
and I think at some level they think that, you know,
it's what they're on earth to do
but they don't necessarily privy to the ultimate agenda.
But, so this is where it gets interesting.
Clearly on the sort of grunt level,
on Toby Young level they don't know.
And you talk about being kind of,
what was the phrase you used to describe your position
at the BBC, sort of middle tier?
You were telling me a leak.
I was second division at best.
But when you get to surely Gary Linnaker,
David Attenborough level at the BBC
or Jimmy Savile level, let's say.
To be naughty.
What an unlikely triumvirate.
Actually, yeah.
It would be very tough to decide who'd be first out of the balloon.
Yeah, Jimmy Savile, Gary Linnaker and who was your other one?
David Attenborough.
Yeah, walk into a bar.
I mean, it's like the start of the unlikely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But the BBC, I mean, I shared your naivety about the BBC
as I demonstrated by agreeing to have a BBC horizon crew
round to my house and they completely did me over.
Did they? I don't know anything about that.
Oh, awful. Absolutely awful.
A guy called...
You see, I was so, so naive, so innocent.
People think...
How long ago?
Whoa.
This would have been about...
2010.
Oh, goodness me.
You were just a cowboy then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was so innocent.
I was so innocent.
I thought the BBC was just kind of misguided rather than malign.
Malign by design, which I now know it to be.
And I wouldn't break bread at all with the BBC.
There was another incident.
I was very, very...
I was very good-natured about it
because it was a bit like when the husband has an affair
and the wife blames herself and forgives the husband.
It was a bit like that.
There was an occasion where Andrew Neil stitched me up
on a sort of a late-night BBC politics program.
And again, I was...
He was chairman of the spectator at the time,
and I wrote for the spectator.
I still write for the spectator.
So obviously it was important to me
that I shouldn't fall out of his favour.
But I genuinely sort of thought at the time it was my fault.
But the other occasion was much worse,
which was when Paul Nurse, who was the head of the Royal Society,
a Nobel Prize-winning cancer specialist.
I mean, all these things,
which now I realise are signs that he was evil,
at the time I thought were badges of distinction.
Yeah, Royal Society, horribly compromised.
Cancer, a Rockefeller racket,
a big pharma death machine.
Nobel Prize, only goes to wrongs.
And this guy had been chairman,
president of Rockefeller University in New York.
I mean, he was absolutely 50 square miles of bad terrain.
He was awful.
And I let this vampire across my threshold
for the BBC, Horizon, another BBC science programme,
another sign of evil.
I was so innocent, I didn't know any of this.
Why am I telling you this?
I don't know, I'm loving it.
I used to trust the BBC.
I too was that naive.
And I now recognise that from the off,
from the moment it was a twinkle,
an evil twinkle in Lord Reed's eyes.
Yeah, I was in the...
It was really funny.
I've listed this, all these people,
not to you right here and now,
but I have in the last few years regularly listed
all the people that dropped me
in all the associations.
Because when you're a middle-ranking BBC presenter,
you get invited to be patron of this ambassador for that.
Charitable things.
They all dropped me.
But very late in the day,
before it all started to happen to me, really,
I was invited, because you have to be,
to become a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh,
which is not quite as august as the Royal Society,
but it's, you know, it's up there.
It's very old, it's an 18th-century thing.
And I was invited to be it,
and you have to be vetted by the members.
You changed the ceremony by the chance?
I didn't get hazed.
I don't remember waking up
with my trousers on back to front or anything.
And anyway, I was in.
But I was no sooner in.
I was in literally for less than a year,
a matter of months.
And I was saying...
It was probably on GB News or something,
a monologue I had delivered.
I don't know, don't ask me which one it was
and what it was about, because I don't know.
I was on holiday with my family in Crete,
and I got an email from whatever the secretary
of the Royal Society of Edinburgh saying,
the members are very upset with what you've said,
and they want you to publish an apology
and retract what you said.
See, honestly, hand on my heart.
I can't remember what it was.
I don't know what I said.
I've said so much.
And I immediately, in high chagrin,
just replied and said, well, I'm out.
Not only am I not apologising, I'm out.
I don't want any to do that.
If that's the Royal Society of Edinburgh,
you know, you can shove it in your puckered ringpiece,
because it's not the kind of company
I'd be prepared to keep now that I see what they're really about.
Yeah, it was the only one.
In the whole list of people that had dropped me,
I kicked the Royal Society of Edinburgh into touch
and told them they could shove it.
And that sort of weasley way they got rid of you,
what the members, which members?
I mean...
For all I know, it may have been just
that one individual who was the secretary.
I mean, maybe something I said on a Saturday night, you know,
upset them.
I have no idea.
But like I say, it was so trivial.
By that point, I had been castigated and, you know,
and scorned by so many that I don't even remember
what it was I was supposed to have done to upset them.
Slough, yeah, whatever.
Get lost.
So, I was going to ask you about GB News,
because I feel
on GB News we've been sold a pup
in as much as at the beginning,
it used to have,
even used to have people like me on it.
And it sort of,
it promoted itself as this kind of
a genuine alternative to the mainstream.
And it's clear to me now
that all this was just a strategy.
Its intention was always to get where it is now,
which is essentially to be what sort of
sort of Farage is England, I suppose.
Farage is fake opposition England.
And it's not an opposition to anything.
It's completely part of the mainstream,
which presumably is why they got rid of you.
Well, they haven't got rid of me at all.
I still record pieces that go on GB News online.
I'm not on the television channel anymore.
That's how they sideline you there.
But honestly, again, I say this with no,
this is the truth.
It is what it is.
And I am in the same way that I come on your,
this podcast here.
I say yes to absolutely everyone.
I mean, I'm not always able to do every podcast.
I mean, I get invited on to scores and I only do some
because there's only so many hours in a day.
And I don't bother.
I've long since stopped worrying
because I want to be able to speak
in as many contexts as I can.
I would walk into hell or whatever
if I was going to get good numbers
for what I was going to be invited to say.
Most of what I hear coming from,
that goes out on GB News, I don't agree with.
I don't agree with the line on this and that,
but I mean, I don't know how on board
with everything that was on your newspaper,
what paper was it you were columnizing for?
The Sunday Times, the telegraph?
No, telegraph.
I don't know how much of it you agree with.
I don't trouble myself with that.
People are on it as presenters and hosts and guests.
Dr. Hilary Jones was a guest on GB News the other day.
I didn't see it.
It's just somebody in high dodging asked me online
what I thought of it and I didn't reply.
I didn't answer.
But oh God, right.
Really, Dr. Hilary Jones,
he have the jabs and wearing a mask
when you go in the sea and all that kind of carry on.
I don't even know what he was on to talk about.
I just know he appeared.
Probably wearing a mask in the sea.
It's his field of expertise.
I mean, if somebody invited me,
I'd probably go,
if I thought I was going to get the opportunity
to vent spleen or give my opinion about something,
I would turn up on the platform.
You know, it doesn't...
Honestly, I speak from the heart.
Yes.
I say that.
And of course that will be used against you as well,
the fact that you are...
I do say.
You know, we are all just...
We are all just...
Anyway, that's my position on that.
It gets, you know...
It's a platform.
It gets good numbers in certain areas,
and that works for me.
Yes.
I've been on...
I went on Tucker Carlson's podcast,
which I've very...
He took me and my wife out
to New England to do it.
I did not know this.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, he got in touch.
How was it?
It was brilliant.
I mean, I had a great time.
He took us out and, you know,
we had dinner with him the night before
and we had a great session
of doing the podcast in his barn.
And, you know...
It was great.
Would he fly you out there?
Yeah.
To America.
Absolutely.
And I've been on...
You know, I've been on Alex Jones.
I've been on the info...
Is it Infowars?
Is that Alex?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've been with Alex Jones a couple of times.
Great.
I mean, great fun.
Great.
Did you go to Texas?
No, no, I didn't.
The only one that flew me out was Tucker.
And, you know, I mean, regular contact with Tucker,
I've been on with Candice Owens, you know,
who I love and fascinates me
and I think she does the most amazing forensic
interrogation of people like, you know,
whatever from Brigitte Macron
through to what's going on at TPUSA
and all of that.
And I...
It's all part of life's rich tapestry.
And if someone invites me on, I'm there.
You know, if the scheduling enables it.
I'm going to have to look up your Tucker.
Got nearly a million viewers, James.
Did it make you famous?
Did it have any influence on your...
Did you notice any impact?
I would hope it maybe made people in America
aware of me who previously hadn't been aware of me.
I mean, his audience is vast.
You know, you're talking...
You know, Candice Owens, I believe,
is the biggest podcast in the world at the moment.
And, you know, I'm in contact with Candice.
You know, we chew the fat about things
and, likewise, Tucker.
Love them.
Great fun to talk to.
And, you know, they've got their...
People are levelling their brick bats at them
and they're in the crosshairs of this and that
and whatever.
And we share, you know, we laugh
in that kind of gallows,
and we assume our way about the predicament
in which we all, independent of one another,
have found ourselves.
It's great.
Even though I think Tucker is CIA.
Sorry, but he is.
Well, he gets that leveled at him all the time.
I mean, because he is.
But doesn't mean to say that I don't love him
and find him entertaining on most accounts
and on point on a lot of things.
Yeah.
I just, I mean, I think he's incredibly brave.
You know, I do think he puts himself in a very...
Even if you don't believe that he's, you know,
likely to be assassinated or something,
I think he's incredibly brave
and that he puts himself in line for so much abuse.
And that is, that takes an enervating toll on a person.
Whoever you are,
being constantly deluged with hatred is, you know,
it's a tough one.
And Candice, likewise.
I mean, she's a young mum and she's out there being loathed
and accused of this, that and the next thing.
And I just think, you know, good on you for being out there
doing what you do.
And the French intelligence services are trying to kill her.
Only for pointing out that Bridget Macron
is what's named dad.
Yeah.
So...
Which she is, isn't he?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, Bridget...
Emmanuel Macron's married his dad, yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So, okay, so you're with me on that one.
You're with me and Candice on that one.
Are you...
Charlie Kirk.
Is he living in Bahá'u'lláh, Ireland?
Like, right at the start of this, you know,
I said this thing about lacking certainty.
I just don't know what happened that day in that place.
Yeah.
I saw the fascinating podcast that you did
with a man with a northern European Germanic accent.
He may have been Scandi, I can't remember.
He was a...
Damagard.
Ole Damagard.
Could have been.
And, you know, he was saying that it never happened.
It was, you know, rent a hysterical crowd.
Yeah.
It didn't happen at all.
I listened to that and thought,
my God, that's, you know, that's good listening to that.
Very fascinating.
I lack certainty about what happened to that man
in that place.
Honestly, that's where I am with that.
I know for a fact that he was not shot
with a 306 rifle by...
No.
That's nonsense.
It was much messier, wouldn't it?
Of all the million things, you know,
in the, you know, in the, you know,
the million monkeys typing on their typewriters,
you know, the least credible explanation
for what happened to that human being that day is
he was shot by Tyler Robinson with a 306.
That's the worst of it.
Anything else?
Well, I'll wait and see if the day ever comes
when there's what could be regarded as, you know,
undeniable veracity I'll see.
I just don't...
I just know that's not what happened to that man
that day in that place.
Yeah.
Well, look, I think that's a very respectable position.
I mean, and there are lots of things out there
that it's good to keep an open mind on
until you've done your deep dive.
You know what it's like for me, James?
You've made me think I'll just jump in and say this
because I'll lose the train of thought, maybe.
To me, the whole experience has been a bit like
having been a blind person, suddenly gifted sight.
Now, I don't mean X-ray vision or anything magical.
I just mean the one of the five senses
that everyone takes for granted if they have them.
Yeah.
But, you know, people who are born blind
function and go about their lives
being told, oh, red's like a hot stone and blue's like...
Which is precisely, you know, you can only say
what something is like.
You can't actually use words to say what something is.
You can only use words to liken something to something else.
And for me, it's been like I was suddenly
tapped on the shoulder with a magic wand
and now I have sight.
And so everything amazes me.
It's like a child in a room suddenly given sight.
I'm just looking around at everything in amazement,
going, oh, wow, this is what it's like when you can see.
And something being able to see doesn't mean
that you're accurately interpreting all the things that you see
because at that point you become at the mercy
of optical illusion and sleight of hand and distraction
and all the things that magicians use
and in the modern context, AI and CGI
and all of the rest of it, you know, being able to see
does not proof you far from it, from anything.
And it's just, I'm still going through the wide-eyed amazement.
Oh, this is what it's like to see.
I don't think I'm looking at everything
and properly identifying everything that the photons bouncing off
of everything are actually...
I don't claim to be interpreting it all with 100% accuracy.
I feel I haven't exhausted the Tucker question yet.
When he's not doing a podcast with you
and you say in something...
Which is most of the time.
Does he go like that?
Does he do his Tucker?
I can honestly say I found him in the flesh.
I found him to be exactly the same person.
He was like that.
He's kind of slaughtered.
Well, all the time I was with him,
all of his mannerisms, his body language, his laugh,
all of those things that he does when he's interviewing you.
He does anyway.
That's all I can say. He was just that person.
Can I say, this is Envy speaking, Neil.
It's not bitchiness.
I do like him.
I think it's like a friend of mine knows a Rothschild
and the Rothschild person loves my friend
and is helping him out with something.
It's not as simple as...
Just because Tucker CIA probably doesn't mean
that I wouldn't love to be on his podcast and don't think he's great.
In the same way, just because we know that the Rothschilds
are one of the most evil families in the world
and they help run the world doesn't mean to say that on an individual level
they couldn't be lovely to you and they couldn't be your best friend.
The world is much more complicated than they think.
Surely you could be born with the Rothschild surname.
None of us gets to choose our anything.
Neil, I would have said that.
I still think you're maybe three or four years behind me
on the journey down the rabbit hole.
I would have said that, but all the research I've done
into the bloodlines, families and the behavior,
how they treat their progeny,
it's all about turning them into kind of mind controlled psychopaths.
So they're sexually abused from a very early age.
The kids that don't make the grade,
that don't become psychopaths themselves,
tend to die of drug overdoses and in car accidents and things.
They tend to weed out the aberrant good members of the family.
So you're never going to get any saints in the Rothschilds
or the Rockefellers or the Van Dynes or the DuPonts
or the Collins ears.
So what does that mean about your friend's friend?
Well, what it means is that people are more complicated
than just simple cacklingly evil.
They're nice to their friends. They can be charming.
They can be...
I was just talking to the man who's planting some trees
in my garden at the moment,
and he was telling me about how he'd been invited
to the stately home of the local toff
and he was saying how delightful the chap had been
and how charming.
And I said, well, of course he was charming.
That's what they're trained to do at Eaton
and in their upbringing.
People are too quick to say,
oh, I've met so-and-so and they're lovely.
They're absolutely delightful
because I've spent time in their company being charmed by them.
Well, charm is a useful quality to have.
I have it myself occasionally,
but it's also a devilish quality.
The devil has got charms and spades.
In the same way, I'm sure that saints
could occasionally be grouchy miserable so-and-soes.
We're all a bit mixed.
It's not all black and white.
Almost.
I think that's where I am about everything.
I just don't know.
But, Neil, the reason I didn't drink enough water this morning,
I did it because my wife went to the office
and didn't have breakfast with me today.
I did the thing where you intermittent fast.
I skipped breakfast and I know it's good for you,
but then I had a very, very salty tagine
and I haven't got enough water and I'm drying up.
I'd treat you to that personal.
I'm not going to let you off the hook
as regards grand universal theories of everything.
You're obviously a really bright, well-read bloke.
You used that word on me that I didn't understand,
but you have to explain to me.
Tell me the word again.
Apophatic.
And there was another word you used to say.
Apophatic.
Cataphatic.
The positive way and the negative way.
You know slouch in the intellectual department
and you are more or less a batshit, crazy, conspiracy theorist
and you've been down the rabbit hole for a while now.
So you must have asked yourself the question,
all this bad, bad shit that's going on in the world
and it's really horrible and it's getting worse.
It really is.
I mean potholes, for example.
We could talk about potholes.
We could talk about everywhere.
There's a spectrum that goes from potholes all the way
to children being sacrificed to Satan for their adrenochrome
and everything in between and this is all happening now
as we speak and it's getting worse.
You know all this, so you must have asked yourself
who's doing this and why
and you must have come up with at least a kind of sketchy theory on this.
I've got so many theories.
Don't tell me it's the anarchy.
I think broadly what I think is that there is an agenda
that predates most of what most people regard as history.
There's a determination, as I say,
I think it wasn't coined for the first time by John in his gospel
but that idea of wherever there's a light,
there's a determination to counter it.
Okay.
I often think there's a film that I saw years ago
and it's based on a novel by Peter Straub.
It's called Ghost Story.
It's a big fat book and it became a film probably in the 1990s
and it's the idea that there's an evil entity
and it keeps on manifesting.
It's essentially immortal
and it has manifest into the lives of a bunch of men
in mid-20th century in the context of the novel
and it comes to them in the context of a,
in the guise of a young woman
and they wrong the young woman
and the entity then comes after them
in the classic Ghost Story vengeance style
but the entity is able to keep on leaving the guise that it has had
and take on something else
and it's called, for the sake of the novel,
it's called the Manitou,
which if you look up in sort of Native American lore,
a Manitou is a kind of an eternal spirit
that appears and then becomes something else
and I think, you know,
you're asking me what I think.
I think there's an agenda,
an intention to subvert the natural order
and it is the dark, you might say
and its intention is to do,
well the dark is what is there when there is no light.
The dark isn't really anything in and of itself,
it's an absence of light
and I think there's a darkness and a dark intent
and it keeps on manifesting time and time and time again
taking on and being, you know, hiding within
and being and disguising itself
but I think there's an intention that's very old
that is to subvert the natural order
and at the moment I think it's approaching
a climactic moment, you know,
it's shit or get off the pot,
fish or cut bait, it's going for it at this time
and that's why more people are becoming more aware
because it's becoming more obvious than it's,
I'm not going to say more obvious than it's ever been
but I think it's becoming more obvious in our time
than it has been for maybe a long time, maybe ever
although I doubt it
and I think that ultimately it's to subvert the natural order
I think it's anti-human,
I think it means that's why it attacks
at the fundamental level, family, community
even what it is to be human and alive
that's why it's got the transgender, the trans-human aspect of it
it's even inviting people to be uncertain about
what even is human
but all of the subversion of the natural order
is manifesting itself and that's why
because I am middle management in every way
I say to myself well if you've noticed
it must be pretty noticeable
because there's nothing particularly intuitive
or perceptive about me
I'm not the dullest blade in the drawer
but neither am I the sharpest
I'm just workman like cutlery
Who is the sharpest blade in the drawer?
Oh, you mean alive and walking around today?
Yeah
I don't think there is anyone
I think everyone's got feet of clay
I don't think there's anyone who's
still not that unaware of
You can still be the sharpest blade in the drawer
with maybe a clay base
I think definitely what we're seeing
which I won't deny I do find satisfying
I think the more on paper
qualified people are
you intend to work
they're the most gulled
they've just spent more of their lives
being indoctrinated by the indoctrinating
negative force
the more letters someone has after their name
I tend to think, oh dear
I'm so glad I haven't got a doctorate
Yeah, me too
I keep saying to people
Mr's good enough for Spock and Sherlock
so it's good enough for me
Yeah
Now I suppose what I was getting around to
in your case was you made a very
interesting observation
which I think is true by the way
I agree with everything you say
what you said about evil and stuff
and it's the kind of antithesis of light
but you mentioned that this force
is anti-human
Now
in my schematic
which is actually not a million miles from yours
except I'm more explicit about it
in my schematic
this is all very clearly explained
that the fallen angels
hate mankind
because God made us
in his image
they felt jealous of him
they wanted to replace God
create a simulacrum
of God's creation
but a human, well a sort of
fallen angel
straight human version of it
which is why they built the tower of Babel and so on
all this stuff is explained very clearly
in the Bible
actually it's not very clearly
but it is explained in the Bible
and we've had to sort of fill in the blanks
but it is pretty much spelled out
I'm just wondering why you don't go
yeah basically
it is some
the fallen angels and their offspring
rebelling against God
with the help of some human accomplices
well that's why it's so interesting
that all of that material is so interesting
and hard to interpret obviously
certainly for someone like me
but I am aware for example
that when you say
God created man in his image
he created Adam
in his image
Adam uniquely was not born
he was not carried just
dated within a woman's body
and given birth
he was created
out of the clay let's say
as far as Genesis
would have it
but everybody else is born
of
well in the Bible
telling everybody else is
born of Adam and Eve
in the conventional way
so when you talk about
the fallen angels
being angry about God's image
there's only
Adam
they would only have that
in your schemata
be levelling that kind of ire
at Adam specifically
because everybody else is born of Adam
I think that's a
really fair point
we can infer very clearly
that the fallen angels
the Bible is constantly talking about
the son of man
and by the son of man they mean
the sons of Adam
but it is assumed
there is a kind of ellipsis
which takes place there
which is for Adam
see also all men thereafter
I think it's a nice
point but I'm not sure it's a very valuable point
and also the
Sethian heresy
in inverted commas
insists that there's a prologue
to Genesis
and that you detect it
between Genesis 1
1 and Genesis 1
2
so the Sethian heresy
which has
some
things in common with the Manichaeanism
and other
heresies
and I'm just using the word
I'm just saying they are called heresies
you know but
so there are
I'm not hard and fast
about interpreting
the Bible because I think
I've read enough and seen enough
to know that there are as many
loopholes if you like
there are ways in which brighter minds than mine
have spotted a hold on
this might be what's meant
by that
and you talk about the fallen angels
there's probably
even a distinction between
you know people
talk about
presumably the ultimate fallen angel
is Satan
yeah but presumably
this is one of the hard things
it's hard to work out
but etymologically
Satan means the
adversary
someone who sets
himself against
his opposite
or god
and then there's the devil
and the devil means accuser
and then there's Lucifer which is the son
of the morning
morning star
and all of the rest of it
so the ultimate fallen angel
is
Satan but Satan
according to the Bible
plainly walks the earth
you know he's not in hell
because
in Job for example
he rucks up and God asks him what he's been up to
and he says I've been wondering about and I've spotted your man
Job and I think I can do a number
on him and God says well if you go
and do your work so Satan's roaming
the earth and God knows it
and you're talking about
the angels
you're talking about the angels that fall
in as much as they give
into their lustful tendencies
and they see
and covet the
daughters of
the daughters of man
and they want in amongst them
and they breed with them
and it's only
you know the fallen angels all seem to be male
there aren't any
there aren't any fallen
feminine
angels that couple with
sons of
it's always male angels
so and they are
they are of a different
they are progeny are the
Nephilim which are the Watchers
you know which there's a great deal
more about in the book of Enoch
than there is in Genesis
so there's a bit more detail
in the book of Enoch about who exactly
is there in that context
all I mean
all I mean is that it's
I certainly do not claim to have
the necessary knowledge nor
wit
comprehensively to interpret what is there
in the redacted
rewritten interpolated
translated entity
that's called the Bible
I'm listening to what you're saying
and I listen to what
scores of other people say about it
and there are as many into it
I don't think to counter your
point that it is that cut and dry
that you just read the Bible and get
the truth I don't think it's
anything like that
nor was I
asking you to
um
agree with me although nothing you've said actually
what you just told me is that
you've read a lot about this stuff and you've been
you've been keeping your powder dry
and waiting for me to
to approach your
the palace aid
before giving me the full volley
but no I mean I don't disagree with anything
that you say and I'm aware of all these
these inconsistencies
but it seems to me
to be
a cop out if you like
to say well there's this
elemental force of
evil
which is the opposite of light
and it's kind of like a man or two and
stuff I
I think there's
it's not
even if you don't have to be right
and you don't have to be
adamant
but I think that you need
a better working theory than you've
got at the moment you don't even have a theory
I don't even have a theory
well that yeah and that's what's
troubling me slightly I'm puzzled
as to why because
I mean we're human
we're trained to watch
we like watching dramas
and we've
taught ourselves maybe it's innate
to try
and work out the motivations
and if it's just
motorless malignity
we feel uncomfortable with it because we kind of want
to know what people are doing
I think it works in
what I think is I think it works in that way
again I go back to the line in John about
the light and the dark
I think
the lesson that's there
is that
the dark or the evil
or the
absence of God I mean there's as many ways
of expressing the thought
it is
what happens unless people are
actively good
I think the dynamism
comes from
the light
and the
evil
the devil
darkness
wickedness manifest
is what happens when
the active
good
drops its
you know drops its burden
you know I think it's beholden
on the other side of the equation
to be
actively the light
because it's in the absence of that
it's when the
shoulders slump
and the burden is set down
the dark
the evil is then
that's what you get
I think that's what's there
encapsulated in the prologue to John
do you think
are you
I don't want to
dump
terms on you if they're not fair
but would you say that are you sympathetic to the new age
what do you mean
by the new age
well the teachings of sort of Madame Blavatsky
and
no, not particularly
again I find the Theosophy movement
interesting and I find the anthroposophy
of
Steiner
yes, Rudolf Steiner
I find all of these things
interesting because I think
more in the case of Steiner
than Blavatsky I think he was
genuinely striving
I think there's something
there's a limit
to which I just
on the face of it I accept
wisdom that's
accomplished by
clairvoyance and mysticism
I'm not sure about that
and that's obviously what makes me
because Steiner
thought that he was
absorbing
what he knew
out of the ether almost
and maybe he was, maybe he wasn't but
I certainly wouldn't be certain about it
so I've got more time for anthroposophy than
than Theosophy
but I just, I'm interested
and open to people
who I think are genuinely
questing genuinely
trying
trying to manifest good
and I think some people genuinely are
how would you go about this
I mean what would the world look like
what would people be doing more of
in a good world
yeah, I mean
if that's the answer
if we're going to defeat this evil
I think it's infinitely fascinating
I believe
I don't think
I think a lot of the trouble in the west
is because
the Old Testament was bracketed on
to the New Testament and the whole thing
was called the Holy Bible
you know, Oregon
and in particular was
incensed about
the wrongness of doing that
of bolting
like a dead
elephant onto the
wing of the little light Cessna aircraft
that was the New Testament
you know, he couldn't believe that they had
done that to the
I don't think Oregon used that
I don't think he used that metaphor either
but you know what I mean
you know, he couldn't believe
that they had so burdened
and so traduced
the New Testament by bolting
it together with the Old
and so when you say
what would the world look like
I think the message
that Jesus
came to deliver
was extremely simple
and I think it all boiled down to
well, you know what it boils down to
it's
treat everyone like you'd wish
to be treated, you know, it's that golden rule
and I think if the world
was made up of people
earnestly doing that
then you would see
what you would see, you know
Francis Hutchison who had the chair of moral
philosophy at Glasgow University
in the middle of the 18th century
part of the Scottish Enlightenment
I mean he preached that happiness
was not random manna from heaven
manna incidentally is an interesting word
it means I don't know what that is
so the thing that the
Israelites were eating in the desert
they were literally saying I don't know what that is
but so
Hutchison said happiness is not
just random it's not a lottery win
it's on the contrary
it's what happens when you give
all of your effort to making other people's lives
better
and if you do that with every fibre of your being
then a collateral benefit
is some happiness for you
and that then
when one of his students, John Witherspoon
was invited to become
the second president of what is now Princeton University
he
he took that teaching with him
and there are good reasons for thinking that the line
he is a signatory of the Declaration of Independence
also Witherspoon
and there are good reasons for thinking that the line about the pursuit of happiness
made its way into that document
because of Witherspoon
and ultimately because of the teaching
of Francis Hutchison
who said
if you give out all of your effort
to making other people better off
then that will make you happy
that's the pursuit of
that is the earnest pursuit of happiness
and I think
I don't think because of all the interpolations
and all of the
all of the agenda-riven
reinterpretations of
whatever Jesus and others said
I think the only
as much of it
and I would even leave a qualifier there
for it I think the line about
treat everyone like you would wish to be treated
if we saw that manifest
in the world
then the world would be a better place
oh I think
I think no question
yeah so that's
you know
that's what I think about that
that's
so I agree that that's I mean
it ain't gonna happen unfortunately because
because
because of the
well
it's almost systematically embedded isn't it
bad behaviour
is the system encourages
amoral
behaviour
it's
you look at the kind of things that
kids are taught on
graduate training
new schemes and they're all these
these artificial
values that are imposed upon them
which have a sort of
virtual adjacent field to them
like sustainability
everyone knows that sustainability is good without
really having questioned the origins of that
of that term
or the whole
diversity, equity and inclusion
these are all sold to us as
as good things and they're not
necessarily well in fact not at all
but I agree
with you that
if we all loved our neighbour as ourselves
it would make a huge difference
but it doesn't really answer the question
about why things have got
that feeling you've got
and I've got that we're approaching
the kind of
well what people might call end times
but we're seeing it about
as bad as it's ever been
why is that
why people's
why is it happening
I think
it
it's partly
I think the consequence
of
soft living
by which I'm referencing the idea
that
a hard working entrepreneurial
go-getter establishes
a fortune
and then the next generation
squander it and then the third generation
finally throws it all away
and ends up in the gutter with a needle
in their arm you know that kind of
trajectory
and I think
in the west certainly
I certainly can't speak to
parts of the world in which I was not
raised and
the idea of which I
have not absorbed
but I think we've been
I am too
we've set aside
too much of what it means
to be human and alive
you know and I think for example
in my case
I would say and many like me
we've allowed to be
denatured
of our masculinity
and again
I can't speak to the feminine because
I'm not a woman I am only
I am only a man
but I'm aware of the fact that
the kind of warrior creed
you know and
you know that the innate
potency of
violence
properly
mastered and channeled
is what you want from a man
and you don't want just
arbitrarily casually violent
men but that
teaching that if you think that you're
a nice person and you have no violence
in you then you're much more dangerous than
a violent person
and the best of all
is someone who has
accepted the presence
of the monster
and has
mastered it
you know the word
meek
the meek shall inherit the earth
everyone most people think meek
means just whatever
weak really soft
but when you follow its translation
out of the Greek it comes from
prose
and it's about
the images of
a wild horse
which in and of itself is a skittish
uncreditable creature
that's labelled to hurt itself and others
if it's provoked
but once it's mastered
by its rider it becomes meek
which is to say it becomes
an incredibly effective channeled
power
that's meek
mastered power
and so I think
we've had too long of being told
the things that we've been told
in the west I can't do anything
I can't go into the wild
and hunt
and provide in practical terms
for my family I'm dependent
on shops and I'm dependent on all of it
so I think we've denatured
ourselves
or we've been denatured
well yes
it's a chicken and egg situation
because we have
I suppose the animal
if the animal is offered
honey it will gorge on it
we will go to the sweet
we will go to
you would naturally
set aside your hammer and your
shovel and live a soft life
if it's offered to you because
it's there and it's innate
in the species not many people
will pick the ascetic spartan life
if something
furlined and sweet is offered
as an alternative
you know so and that
that tendency of the animal
has been identified long ago
you know you give them bread
and circuses and all of that
then comes into play so you say
why did it why has it happened
I think it's because
life has become too easy
and we have become
soft and
that has been our undoing
it's going to be I'm feeling
quite depressed now Neil
it's not I don't think
I am not depressed
I think
you know sadness
or whatever gets a bad rap
I think
you're sold a version
of life which is about happiness
which I think is really
akin to drunkenness
which is fun but it's not really
a way to live a life just being drunk
you know you need to be sober
as well most of the time
to get things done
and there's a whole rich
texture of
of reality
of what it is to be human and alive
and we've been
we've been brow beaten and
MKUltraid and
brainwashed
into thinking that you know unless
you've got three Range Rovers
a Lamborghini
infinite upgrades on your phone
and you never have to work and everything's
I think Gordon Ramsay has
that's a complete
that's a complete travesty
you know that which
we have been sold
is our undoing and I think
you say I'm depressed
I think it's
infinitely thrilling
you know
to contemplate
the fullness
the rich texture
of what it is to be human and alive
and I think you can
you know
you know success is counted sweetest
by those who never succeed to comprehend
an actor requires sores need
I think you know it's
sores need
is what comes back
into your life
if you're splashed in the face
or slapped in the face with the realisation
that a soft easy life is not worth
having at all
and you know that
it's
it's once you're confronted with that
then even if you don't achieve it
but being invited to
strive you know
to strive and not to yield
you know these things are true
and even if you
fall and fail
you know not one of all the purple
host that took the flag today can tell the definition
so clear of victory as him defeated
dying on whose forbidden ear
the distant sounds of triumph burst agonised
and clear
what's that from
that's Emily Dickinson but
I don't know the name of the poem but
you know that
even if you don't make it
even if you fall in the battle
even if you don't taste
the ambrosia even if you don't
what matters
is to know it's there
and to live your life
you know in the pursuit of it
that's
we've been
we're handed this
this nonsense
ersatz
success and happiness that is not
that is neither
yeah look I agree with everything you're saying
but I'm
recognising the irony of this here
look there you are in your nice
um
I've already said I am one of those
that's what I mean
so we're preaching this stuff
but actually
really
I've got my nice microphone that you've got
I don't preach this stuff I don't think
I'm an exemplar of anything
I'm just interested
all I'm saying is
that
should we really even be talking
what we should be doing
is going and
pumping iron
and
being learning
martial arts skills
while we still have an ounce of strength
in our failing
feminised bodies
I mean this is
I think some shits about
the hit the fan and although I've got
I've planted some garlic this year
I'm happy about my garlic
I'm happy about the small
measures I've taken
towards self-sufficiency I recognise that they're
pitifully inadequate
I also subscribe
to some extent to the notion
that you know the whole a lot of
you're talking about you know fallen
angels and all of the rest of it and you'll
have read into the you know the whole
you know the idea of the demi-urge
and you know and that the whole
of the whole physical real
world that we experience is the
creation of
you know an artisanal
lesser being the demi-urge
you don't bind to that but
that's noctisism which I
well you call it I'm not
I'm not saying that I'm just
saying it's another thing to
consider you know there's a
the
the cathars
you know who were you know who were
wiped out in the
you know the 13th and 14th centuries
Alba Jensen Crusade
now
their version of whatever
belief
strange to say is very
much mirrored in
Nusairi
which is
well I suppose better known as
the Alawai sect that was
in Syria
but since Syria and up into
Turkey there's a you know
there's a sect of belief
that is Nusairi
and it's very similar
to what was
manifest amongst the
cathars and
there's a lovely
Nusairi prayer
which is about
deliverers from these
human forms and
reclothers in light among
the stars
and
it's about I suppose it's a
mindset that contemplates the possibility
that all of this is just all of this
and that we are
immortal
beings of light
that we are of the
Sunyata the void the
ineffable you know
sons and daughters of the most high
whatever language you want to use to try
and encapsulate the thought
you know there's a
whether you ever become
warrior or whether you ever
you know live the ascetic
life and grow
your own food and you know bring
down a caribou and provide for your children
with the strength of your back
ultimately we are brief
manifestations of
matter islands of matter
in an ocean an infinite ocean
of
spirit mind
really and so
this I sometimes think that
where we are now is like a
an escape room
you know those things where you pay to go in
and you get shut in and you have to solve
a series of questions
or riddles or challenges and then you get
out yeah I think
it's a I think there's that's another
possibly
slightly helpful way of contemplating
what we're experiencing that
you know you're going to get out of this
whether you believe in
whatever you believe you know
even if even the most
you know convinced
atheist thinks you're
going to get out of here
even if it's into nothing
in the case of an atheist
but everyone thinks
that this is temporary
and the faithful in whatever
whether they be Buddhist or Christian
or whatever
they believe they're going to get out of this
and so you know
delivers from these human forms and reclothers
in light among the stars you know it's like
yeah
yeah I like
that I like that
I think we'll end on that thought actually that's a good one Neil
thank you
good fun talking to you James
that was very interesting
I'm glad
I'm going to look up apophatic theology
oh well
you'll find it enriching
is there any
book I need to read about this
oh gosh
well the
the works of
the individual who is called
pseudo Dionysius
the Areopagite are there
there are a series of books
you just love saying pseudo Dionysius
the Areopagite
I also I'm very taken with
I'm very taken with the teaching of another
heretic really the
arguably the original heretic who's Pelagius
who bumped heads
with
Augustine of Hippo
in the
in the 300s
and Pelagius was a layman
a lay preacher if anything
and he
Augustine was determined about
the fallen nature of man
that we are hopeless
fallen creatures
and that our only hope of
salvation comes through the church
priests
confession, absolution
and so on and so on
but Pelagius said no no no no that's a cop
out we're all responsible
for our own
doings and it's
possible to aspire to live a life as close
to that of Jesus as you possibly can
you're never going to be Jesus
you're never going to be that good
but that's the model and you don't need
intercession
and I like Pelagius
if I'm anything
in the Christian realm
I'm more in that realm
I'm more in that direction
Pelagius
yes I have heard of the
of the
Pelagian heresy
yeah exactly
so that would make sense
yes it's all those people who say that
good works make no difference
you're already saved
through
the intercession of Jesus
and stuff and yeah
in fact that's one of the topics that causes
most
dissent I think among Christians
because I must say
I
tend towards your
position that
well
and it's not enough
that one is
saved through
Christ and through
the church you've got to put your back into it
I think it's more complicated than that
yeah
yeah it's the ultimate
rabbit hole I think Christianity which is why it's so endlessly fascinating
step 100
on the staircase of
disbelief it is
I've got to get him on
sometime it's Neil Kramer isn't
that's right I couldn't
swear to his first name funnily enough but yeah
is it Mark I can't remember
I don't know I thought it was Neil but I don't know
anyway
oh I see well I suppose
you're called Neil so maybe it
one has a blind spot
one among nine
I think he might even be any
anyway
Neil
where can we
where can we find you
clearly we can find you at GB news still
yeah absolutely
I am the coast guy
is my handle on X
I have my own channel
on YouTube and rumble and
TikTok and all of that
so I
do my own content I interview
my own choice of people and I do my
own monologues and there's also
lots of history there because really my heart lies
in you know history
books and so there's plenty of
my most recent book is
hauntings a book of ghosts
and where to find them which is about
ghosts but it's also really addressing
some of the you know asking
some of the questions about you know
what's it all about
have you seen a guest
not
not in the classic sense
but I have and they're detailed in the
book I've had some you know
the
some of that has passed
has brushed past me like a stranger in a crowd
right
but it's there in the book that's my most
recent book I've got another book in the hands
of my publisher at the moment and that's
just the process begun again
to getting something out so
but yes and you're a hard
working boy
well I've got a mortgage to service
my wife keeps on saying
if we were controlled opposition and had money
from Qatar she'd have a new kitchen
and would have an extension
yeah yeah you're full
you're full
it's been great catching up on you
and I think I might have to have you back on again
when I've read your ghost book and
and find one else
I love the
conversations we've had
not enough too few
no let's do another one
definitely been too long
I'll have you on my channel I'll return the favor
that would be good
yeah you don't have to
if you want
I can talk about stuff probably
I believe that I've read that about you
thank you and everyone else
if you've enjoyed this podcast
which obviously you have
do please keep
signing up
supporting me spreading the word
you can still try and support me on
substack I think it's a honey trap
I don't trust their intentions
but try
or go to my website
jamesdellingpole.co.uk
and I think you'll soon find a way of
being able to fund me directly
instead of going through the other places
buy me a coffee
and thank you again Neil
thank you
and let me send me a link
so I can find this as soon as possible
oh I'll do that