WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Zano, the privacy-based crypto we use right here at the Free Thought Project.

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While Bitcoin's been hijacked by surveillance exchanges and institutional control,

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Zano stays true to what crypto is supposed to be.

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It's more than just a coin.

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Zano is a full-blown ecosystem.

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Private transactions, atomic swaps, confidential assets, escrow trades,

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and even a decentralized marketplace where people are already buying and selling real goods and services.

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All without a third party looking over your shoulder.

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And unlike that fiat that you're forced to use,

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every Zano transaction burns a bit of the supply, making it deflationary over time.

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Imagine that.

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A cryptocurrency that gets more valuable the more people use it.

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And the best part?

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It just works.

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No KYC.

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No big brother.

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Just a tool for people who actually value freedom.

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Zano.

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Because the Free Thought Project doesn't just talk liberty, we transact with it.

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Governments should be afraid of people.

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No matter what anybody tells you,

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words and ideas can change the world.

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World.

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World.

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Ideas can change the world.

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An idea whose time has come cannot be destroyed by armies or governments.

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It's too pervasive, and we still have tools to spread the message.

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Welcome to the Free Thought Project Podcast.

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A hub for free thinking conversations about the promotion of liberty

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and the daunting task of government accountability.

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Here are your hosts, Jason Bassler and Matt Agarist.

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Hello again, Free Thinkers.

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Welcome back to the Free Thought Project Podcast.

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My name is Jason Bassler, and joining me is the Free Thought Project Editor-in-Chief Matt Agarist.

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Appreciate each and every one of you taking the time to listen to this show again.

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We've got a really eye-opening episode today,

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and I'm pretty sure it's going to make us all rethink how we use social media

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or how social media uses us.

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So today's guest is somebody I've been following for, I don't know,

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at least six to eight months now, and he's doing absolutely brilliant work,

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placing a mirror in front of us to remind us just how pervasive this tech, social media,

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and all these new elements combined, including the gods that go by the name of algorithms,

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have really become embedded into our lives.

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So I'm super excited to have this guest joining us today.

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But as usual, guys, I'll go ahead and just knock out a couple short announcements,

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and we'll get right into the interview.

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So apologies right off the bat, guys, for missing last week's episode.

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You know, we really tried to never do that.

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So just know that if we don't actually publish an episode in a certain week,

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we did try everything we could to make it happen.

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We really do love doing this podcast, and we know just how very important it is

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for these conversations to keep rolling.

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And also, guys, I know I say this every episode, but it really does matter.

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Do make sure that you are subscribed and take a second to rate the show on whatever app you use.

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If you do truly value what we're doing here, just go ahead, head over to the top of the free thought project.com.

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At the top there, you will see a tab for a TFTP membership.

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It's just 10 bucks a month, guys, but multiplied across our listeners.

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It's what keeps these conversations alive.

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And I know this is the part that people tend to skip, but it really does truly matter for you thinkers.

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Okay, well, our guest today is someone who is focused on breaking the Internet.

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And no, no, no, no, not like Kim Kardashian or any of the other celebrity.

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But as breaking our minds and our habits of this addiction to social media and to screens.

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So today we're joined by Sam Knight.

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He's the creator behind Mindless HQ.

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It's an account that's been cutting through the noise with sharp thought-provoking posts about culture and tech.

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And all the way it shapes our minds and thoughts and beliefs and in turn, the world around us.

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So Sam, thanks for joining us and welcome to the Free Thought Project podcast.

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It's an absolute pleasure to be here, man.

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Big fan of what you guys do, so I'm excited to contribute.

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Thank you so much, brother. I appreciate that.

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And, you know, I've been, as I said, looking forward to this conversation for a while.

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And pretty much ever since I've reached out to you to come on.

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I think that was like early December.

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But I think you've probably noticed by now I'm a big fan of your work and you're objective with it, you know,

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to try to reactivate people's self-awareness and critical thinking and maybe even inspire return to nature.

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And as we were talking, you know, about, you know, right before the show started,

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your account on Instagram really has grown quickly.

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I think you were around 40k followers, maybe a little bit more than that when I reached out for this podcast.

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And it's really just exploded into this large following.

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I think it's like 115,000 followers now.

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And, you know, obviously it's for good reason.

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I think your strategy is brilliant, man.

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And of course, I'm going to allow you to explain, you know, what the project's about and everything,

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because obviously you know much better than I do.

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But one of the elements that seems really effective has been hijacking these, you know,

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dopamine inducing viral videos of, you know, absolute mindless garbage

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and using them as like a hook in the beginning of your videos.

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And then, you know, a second or two after that you hit the viewer with this grim reality

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that they just took the social media engagement bait and it kind of,

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it kind of hits them with the reality of their social media addiction.

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And you do it in a way that, you know, I don't feel like it's really derogatory or accusatory,

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but rather like, hey, you see how easy it is to hijack your attention.

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So, you know, it really is great.

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I think it's brilliant.

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And it's kind of akin to our strategy here at the Free Thought Project

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by, you know, planting Liberty seeds by any means necessary.

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But instead of, you know, Liberty seeds, you're just planting these seeds

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of trying to be more mindful, self-awareness and mental health.

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So, yeah, man, please share what inspired you to start this project

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and your origin story in this world

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and, you know, what you're trying to accomplish with this.

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Yeah, well, the first thing I want to say off the bat

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is you really nailed it with the self-awareness aspect,

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and I'm sure we'll go into this later.

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But I don't believe in villainizing technology

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or even artificial intelligence or social media

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because I believe the poison is in the dose

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and I think that's really important for people to understand.

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A lot of people get caught up in, you know,

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oh my gosh, I'm a bad person for doing this

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or whatever the case might be.

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But I believe that these tools can be just that tools.

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And the problem is they're hijacked and they're manipulated

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and we'll talk about that in a bit.

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But as far as my background is concerned,

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so I have been in kind of like the health and wellness

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and mental health world for, gosh, probably 12, 13 years at this point.

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It started when I was younger, when I was about 22, 23.

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I had just gotten out of college.

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I was a college baseball player and I was just lost.

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I had no identity. I didn't know who I was,

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what I wanted to do, who I wanted to be.

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And, you know, in this journey to just search within myself,

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I stumbled across meditation.

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And, you know, at the time, especially being a former athlete,

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you know, the stereotypes,

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something like meditation sounded so silly to me, right?

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Just sitting there with your thoughts

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and, you know, being a monk almost.

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That's kind of the impression that I had.

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But I was at a point where I was in a really bad place.

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I was depressed. I was anxious.

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I didn't know what I wanted to do.

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And so I said, you know what, I've got nothing to lose.

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I read an article where about 50 different entrepreneurs

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I look up to, practice it regularly.

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And I said, hey, you know what, I got nothing to lose.

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Let me just give it a shot.

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And to make a very long story short,

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it had a tremendously profound impact on my life.

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Not overnight, but over the course of the next couple months,

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the next year, it really shifted who I was as a person.

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And, you know, that's the thing about meditation

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is a lot of people will try it and sit down.

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It doesn't work after the first try,

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so they never try it again.

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But it's a practice.

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It's just like the gym.

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You don't gain muscles over one workout.

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You know, it takes time.

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And so over the year, this really sat with me

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and I was reflecting on it.

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And I was just like, wow, I've really changed as a person.

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And then I became obsessed with the idea that, you know,

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mental health is not a matter of your serotonin

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not being balanced enough

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and you need to go take pills.

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And, you know, there's use cases for medicine for sure.

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But, you know, I became convinced

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that for the most part we can kind of be sovereign

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and take control of that side of ourselves

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in the same way that we can do that with our physical health.

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You know, we can clean up the way we eat.

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We can clean up the way we work out.

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And you can do the same thing with the brain and with the mind.

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And so that led me down a very long path

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of just being obsessed with, you know,

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how far can I take this?

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How much can I master my mind

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instead of being a slave to it?

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And, you know, I'm making a very long story short here.

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I'm from Atlanta, Georgia.

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That's actually where I live now.

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I moved out to Los Angeles, California

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to kind of chase a dream

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and just do the whole thing.

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And I was working for a tech startup,

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but I ended up getting a job with this guy named Sean T.

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And Sean created these workouts called Insanity.

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And they were super, super popular around like 2010.

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And so anyways, I was with him for about three years.

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We traveled the world.

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We hosted events.

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And I saw firsthand him impact millions of people, you know,

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millions of people that were obese over weight.

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They lost weight.

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They changed their lives.

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And I mean, we would literally be walking

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throughout the streets in Europe.

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People would run up to him crying just saying,

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oh my gosh, you changed my life.

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Thank you so much.

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And that really stuck with me.

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And just that mission-driven impact

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and how deeply he was impacting these people,

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because I had already had the seed in my mind

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of the mental health stuff and meditation.

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And so when I saw that, it just really resonated with me.

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But it takes a lot of courage to really pursue

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the things that we know deep down we should be pursuing.

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And so I ended up starting a business after that.

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I have a background in engineering and marketing.

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And so I essentially had a marketing

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and technology agency, if you will,

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did that for a couple of years.

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But in the back of my mind,

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I just knew that I was kind of abandoning this thing

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that had really changed me so profoundly.

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And so with that, about a year and a half ago,

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I started having these visions where,

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every time we'd go out to dinner,

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every time I was hanging out with friends, family,

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we're just all on our phones all the time.

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What do you do when you're sitting at dinner

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and your friend goes up to use the bathroom?

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You take out your phone and you look at it.

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And it was just becoming,

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it's one of those things that when you see it,

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you can't unsee it and you see it everywhere.

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And so taking that history that I just laid out

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and then just seeing this kind of unfold,

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also looking at my screen time daily,

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just being like, oh my gosh, wait,

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if I am spending this much screen time daily on my phone,

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how many days a year am I spending?

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Oh my gosh, how many days am I spending

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over the next decade?

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And when you really add those numbers up,

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man, it's sobering.

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And so I was talking with my fiance about it

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and I was saying, I really believe

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that in the future, we are gonna have more people

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going to rehab for social media or screen addictions.

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I'll call it screen addictions

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because screens will be here,

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social media will evolve

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and we'll see how that goes over the next 10 years.

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But it just became, it was almost like a message

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that was implanted in my heart

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that we're gonna be having people go to rehab

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for social media or screen time addictions.

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And that was a really profound thought

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because in society, we know it's not good

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to drink a lot of alcohol.

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We know the dangers and risk of certain drugs

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and certain compounds.

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That's all laid out for us,

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but we never talk about this thing

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that is essentially connected to us.

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I mean, in a way, without going on too long of a rant,

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the phone is essentially an extension

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of the human being now.

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It's like a phase of biology and evolution.

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And so when I really started thinking about this,

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it all started clicking.

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This is a huge problem.

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There's not anyone really talking about this.

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There's a couple products trying to help with it,

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but we need to get this message out here.

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So how can I take it a step further

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beyond the message is there a way that I can actually help people?

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And so to make a very long story short,

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I ended up developing the app known as Mindless.

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That's my page on social media, Mindless.

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And what was really amazing is, you know,

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I launched the page well before the app came out

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because I just wanted to get the message out.

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And that's really what this is all about.

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It's the message.

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And very quickly, I saw that people were resonating with it.

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And it was really encouraging to me

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because it confirmed that, hey, I'm not alone.

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I'm not making this up in my head.

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This is a real issue that people are struggling with.

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And then to hit on what you were saying earlier, Jason,

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the page has just exploded.

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I mean, it's been incredible.

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I've been working with social media for a long time,

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and I've never seen growth like this before.

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And it's been, you know, really reassuring

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just because this is a real problem.

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And the DMs I get, you wouldn't believe it.

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People are literally begging for help, begging.

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And it's not one of those things you can go to your parents

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or to your friends and say, oh my gosh,

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I think I'm addicted to my phone.

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They'd be like, what are you talking about?

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We're all, you know, like,

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we all use our phones all day.

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It's normal.

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It's just, it's accepted in society.

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There's no problem.

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And so that kind of is the core thesis, right?

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It's, I see us on this high speed train

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headed towards a collision.

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No one's talking about it.

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And it's only going to get worse.

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You know, with artificial intelligence,

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the first real way that AI was used,

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well, at least to our knowledge, right?

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Who knows how long it's actually been being used,

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but is in these social media algorithms.

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You know, TikTok came out

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and then Instagram Reels came out

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and then YouTube Shorts.

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And they're essentially hacking into our biology

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and programming us to be scrolling on these things

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all day, every day.

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So once I recognized this problem,

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started pushing the message out,

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it just kind of snowballed

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and has turned into this much bigger thing.

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And you know, I'm, I just am so excited

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for the next five to 10 years

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because I think it's just going to become

13:56.060 --> 13:57.020
an entire mission.

13:57.180 --> 14:00.420
And I see so many people that want to get help.

14:00.500 --> 14:01.640
They want to speak about this.

14:01.960 --> 14:04.020
And so I think we've really tapped into something

14:04.020 --> 14:05.820
that is going to be a major,

14:05.940 --> 14:08.540
major conversation in the world over the coming years.

14:08.660 --> 14:10.020
And I'm really excited about it.

14:10.020 --> 14:11.920
And I just want to try to help as many people

14:11.920 --> 14:12.880
as I possibly can,

14:13.140 --> 14:14.760
not delete their phones

14:14.760 --> 14:16.420
or never use a screen again,

14:16.800 --> 14:18.780
but improve the relationship with it.

14:18.860 --> 14:20.100
Because that's what it's all about to me.

14:20.280 --> 14:22.400
I love the saying that the poison is in the dose.

14:22.700 --> 14:24.040
I think that applies to a lot of substances

14:24.040 --> 14:26.480
and it definitely applies to technology and social media.

14:26.780 --> 14:28.280
You know, without technology,

14:28.660 --> 14:30.080
the three of us wouldn't be here talking.

14:30.280 --> 14:31.940
So it has amazing benefits to it,

14:32.160 --> 14:34.380
but there's obviously massive, massive downsides.

14:34.520 --> 14:36.600
And I think we need to be talking about those downsides.

14:37.780 --> 14:39.640
And I just feel like it's so important.

14:39.640 --> 14:42.020
It might be the most important topic in society today.

14:42.640 --> 14:44.080
Yeah, I'm right there with you.

14:44.300 --> 14:46.960
I kind of recognize that as well,

14:47.080 --> 14:48.820
and especially through your work.

14:48.980 --> 14:51.940
And if there is, you know, a global conversation

14:51.940 --> 14:54.360
that does pick up and start to occur,

14:54.540 --> 14:56.300
I'm really happy to hear that you're going to probably

14:56.300 --> 14:57.440
be leading that charge, man.

14:57.500 --> 14:59.560
It sounds like you really have your head on straight

14:59.560 --> 15:00.360
when it comes to this.

15:00.400 --> 15:02.680
You really understand the dangers and the issues

15:02.680 --> 15:04.580
and you can articulate it very well.

15:04.720 --> 15:06.540
And I'm sure that background in marketing,

15:07.020 --> 15:08.080
that might help a little bit.

15:08.080 --> 15:09.920
That might explain some things for me

15:09.920 --> 15:11.060
and connect some dots as well.

15:11.800 --> 15:14.460
But yeah, we're all guilty of the hours and hours

15:14.460 --> 15:15.340
on social media.

15:15.460 --> 15:17.060
And even Matt and myself,

15:17.280 --> 15:18.880
I know we've become more aware of it

15:18.880 --> 15:21.940
and tried to be more mindful about it

15:21.940 --> 15:23.380
over the past several years.

15:23.540 --> 15:24.800
But for, you know, years and years,

15:25.000 --> 15:26.300
I mean, Matt and myself have been doing this

15:26.300 --> 15:27.880
for about 14, 15 years now.

15:28.100 --> 15:30.500
It was almost just couched in this idea,

15:30.700 --> 15:31.920
well, this is what we do for work.

15:32.060 --> 15:33.060
So therefore, you know,

15:33.080 --> 15:34.460
I have to have my head in my phone

15:34.460 --> 15:36.700
and I have to be, you know, I'm a newshound.

15:36.700 --> 15:37.380
That's what I do.

15:37.580 --> 15:39.480
I have to be finding the newest story.

15:39.740 --> 15:43.700
And so I do appreciate that there is more of a push

15:43.700 --> 15:45.400
and like I said, you're leading the charge

15:45.400 --> 15:47.160
to become more aware of this.

15:47.640 --> 15:49.660
And, you know, it is something

15:49.660 --> 15:51.500
that has become just normalized

15:51.500 --> 15:54.680
and to the extent that I frequently,

15:54.880 --> 15:57.560
when I'm out in public, watch adults

15:57.560 --> 16:01.720
hand their kids screens, tablets, phones, whatever.

16:02.220 --> 16:03.820
And as you were pointing out,

16:03.940 --> 16:05.800
I mean, we know that we would never

16:05.800 --> 16:09.080
give our children a puff of cigarette or a vape

16:09.080 --> 16:11.700
or even give them a Red Bull for Christ's sake

16:11.700 --> 16:13.580
or a bag of candy or something like that.

16:13.620 --> 16:15.840
But then you hand them, you know, a phone

16:15.840 --> 16:19.360
and a tablet 24 seven as a distraction

16:19.360 --> 16:20.400
most of the time too.

16:20.560 --> 16:22.460
And people don't think anything about it,

16:22.520 --> 16:25.040
like how that's going to affect future generations

16:25.040 --> 16:27.380
and how they're able to communicate,

16:27.680 --> 16:30.240
how they're able to even have relationships

16:30.240 --> 16:31.140
with other people.

16:31.540 --> 16:33.560
And I mean, I think we really are

16:33.560 --> 16:35.500
setting ourselves up for disaster here.

16:36.460 --> 16:38.320
And, you know, I appreciate too

16:38.320 --> 16:40.260
that you touched on the meditation element

16:40.260 --> 16:43.020
of this and that being possibly one of the solutions

16:43.020 --> 16:44.540
and maybe we'll get into that a little bit later

16:44.540 --> 16:46.220
in the show because we always try to end

16:46.220 --> 16:48.100
on a white pill solution question.

16:48.420 --> 16:50.260
But one thing I wanted to share is that

16:50.260 --> 16:53.680
I recently, you mentioned for a period of time there

16:53.680 --> 16:55.160
you're dealing with anxiety and depression

16:55.160 --> 16:57.520
and I think that's, you know, almost goes

16:57.520 --> 17:00.040
hands in hand with using a lot of technology

17:00.040 --> 17:02.080
and computers and screens and stuff.

17:02.080 --> 17:04.360
But I recently just started

17:04.360 --> 17:06.700
journaling in a gratitude journal

17:06.700 --> 17:09.320
and it's really helped me profoundly

17:09.860 --> 17:12.100
not necessarily that I was suffering from depression

17:12.100 --> 17:14.520
but just always to think about

17:14.520 --> 17:16.280
and to have that on the back of my mind.

17:16.420 --> 17:18.600
You know, what am I, what am I appreciative of?

17:18.780 --> 17:20.160
What do I have gratitude for?

17:20.580 --> 17:22.960
I think just kind of rewiring that mindset

17:22.960 --> 17:25.700
has been, you know, something that's been huge for me.

17:25.760 --> 17:27.640
So if people are struggling out there

17:27.640 --> 17:30.280
meditation is absolutely important.

17:30.280 --> 17:32.780
And as Sam was saying, you know, we really have

17:32.780 --> 17:34.840
to be more sovereign with our mental health.

17:34.900 --> 17:37.520
We have to kind of reestablish

17:37.520 --> 17:39.740
these things that are one point where we're just

17:39.740 --> 17:41.780
normal going outside, getting sunshine,

17:42.440 --> 17:45.300
taking your shoes off, grounding, doing exercise.

17:45.600 --> 17:47.200
I mean, getting some type of physical activity,

17:47.320 --> 17:48.960
all these types of things, including meditation,

17:49.300 --> 17:51.640
including journaling, is the path forward,

17:51.800 --> 17:53.120
is the path to mental health.

17:53.580 --> 17:56.760
And you know, Sam, I want to get right into this now.

17:56.960 --> 17:58.800
You did say something a couple minutes ago

17:58.800 --> 18:00.040
that kind of made my head spin.

18:00.240 --> 18:02.600
It was that you predicted in 10 years that

18:02.600 --> 18:06.480
people will be in rehab for screens

18:06.480 --> 18:07.560
rather than alcohol.

18:07.900 --> 18:09.820
And honestly, man, you know, if you look at

18:09.820 --> 18:11.520
how engineered our digital environments

18:11.520 --> 18:14.780
have become, it doesn't really feel far fetched.

18:14.980 --> 18:17.900
So can you, do you mind expanding on that

18:17.900 --> 18:18.340
a little bit?

18:18.440 --> 18:19.440
Is this just like a prediction?

18:19.700 --> 18:21.660
Have you like read any stats on this?

18:21.940 --> 18:23.860
And like, what do you think

18:23.860 --> 18:25.480
we're actually trying to replace?

18:26.020 --> 18:27.900
Is it like, you know, the attention,

18:27.900 --> 18:30.320
the meeting, the community or something deeper?

18:30.720 --> 18:33.140
Like, where are these inner deficits coming from?

18:33.480 --> 18:33.820
Sure.

18:34.060 --> 18:35.200
Well, great question.

18:35.380 --> 18:37.300
And I think it is directly related to

18:37.300 --> 18:38.980
what you were talking about with shoving an iPad

18:38.980 --> 18:40.540
in a kid's face, right?

18:40.660 --> 18:43.560
Like, we haven't seen the impact of that yet

18:43.560 --> 18:45.240
because the first kids with iPads,

18:45.320 --> 18:47.200
you know, approximately what 10 years ago

18:47.200 --> 18:49.040
is when they probably started giving kids iPads

18:49.040 --> 18:51.160
pretty heavily, maybe a little bit before that.

18:51.520 --> 18:53.360
However, you know, you look at the

18:53.360 --> 18:55.360
mental health issues in society today

18:55.360 --> 18:58.520
and you look at the suicide rates of young adults

18:58.520 --> 19:01.460
and it's essentially exponential up and to the right.

19:01.620 --> 19:03.580
Well, what's changed in the last 20 years

19:03.580 --> 19:04.980
that could have caused that?

19:05.380 --> 19:08.180
Well, the biggest thing I can think of is technology, right?

19:08.340 --> 19:10.760
And so that's just the first thing in terms of like statistics.

19:11.240 --> 19:13.840
The reason that people aren't going to rehab for it today

19:13.840 --> 19:16.160
is because it's not identified as a real problem.

19:16.200 --> 19:18.920
But if you think about it, information is a substance.

19:19.180 --> 19:21.180
I love comparing it to substances

19:21.180 --> 19:23.020
and the way that you said, you know,

19:23.020 --> 19:24.140
we wouldn't give our kid a Red Bull,

19:24.280 --> 19:26.740
we wouldn't give him a puff of a vape or a cigarette

19:26.740 --> 19:29.040
or, you know, you name your vice of choice.

19:29.580 --> 19:31.860
But yet you'll throw an iPad in their face

19:31.860 --> 19:34.860
where information is just flowing unfiltered.

19:35.220 --> 19:37.420
And, you know, today it's very likely

19:37.420 --> 19:39.400
that the person listening to this

19:39.400 --> 19:41.780
will consume more information through their device

19:41.780 --> 19:43.780
over the course of two or three days

19:43.780 --> 19:46.000
than their ancestors did in their entire life.

19:46.240 --> 19:48.000
And the human body is not evolved

19:48.000 --> 19:50.620
to be able to handle that amount of information.

19:50.620 --> 19:53.140
And that's pretty crazy when you actually think about it.

19:53.200 --> 19:55.440
So my prediction is simply that, you know,

19:55.480 --> 19:57.860
if you observe the mental health crisis that's going on,

19:57.900 --> 19:59.800
if you look at the charts, you see what's happening

19:59.800 --> 20:01.680
and you correlate it to the fact that

20:01.680 --> 20:03.620
it's a one-to-one exponential increase

20:04.280 --> 20:06.560
with the increase in technological use,

20:06.660 --> 20:08.540
whether it's a cell phone or a tablet

20:08.540 --> 20:10.560
or, you know, even a computer,

20:10.780 --> 20:13.120
although that's not quite as insidious in my opinion

20:13.120 --> 20:14.300
because it's not quite as portable.

20:14.780 --> 20:16.540
And so I think it's quite obvious that, you know,

20:16.580 --> 20:18.960
once the conversation gets out, once we realize,

20:18.960 --> 20:20.800
wait a minute, this is essentially

20:20.800 --> 20:22.660
like I am consuming a substance.

20:23.160 --> 20:25.480
The substance is just in the form of information.

20:26.160 --> 20:28.340
That information overload is making me sick.

20:28.540 --> 20:31.160
When I eat too much food, I become obese, right?

20:31.280 --> 20:32.200
You can see it physically.

20:32.760 --> 20:34.040
When you consume too much information,

20:34.480 --> 20:37.240
there's no way to physically see the damage

20:37.240 --> 20:39.340
that it's doing unless, you know, you're sleep-deprived

20:39.340 --> 20:40.280
and then you can maybe see it.

20:40.340 --> 20:42.360
But in general, it's much quieter.

20:42.660 --> 20:44.800
It's much more sneaky and insidious.

20:45.060 --> 20:46.600
Until you get to a point where

20:46.600 --> 20:48.860
you're having terrible mental health problems,

20:48.920 --> 20:50.480
maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's depression,

20:50.660 --> 20:51.440
maybe it's panic attacks,

20:51.540 --> 20:53.080
there's a million different things that could happen.

20:53.480 --> 20:56.140
And I just think that we need to start viewing

20:56.140 --> 20:58.220
our information intake

20:58.220 --> 21:01.720
the same way that we view our food in nutritional intake, right?

21:01.820 --> 21:04.680
Like you wouldn't just go slam 6,000 calories today

21:04.680 --> 21:05.740
because it's accessible

21:05.740 --> 21:07.340
because you know that's not good for you.

21:07.440 --> 21:11.000
Yet someone might scroll for 10 hours a day

21:11.000 --> 21:12.040
because no one's told them,

21:12.380 --> 21:14.500
hey, by the way, your brain is trying to register

21:14.500 --> 21:16.500
all this information that's going into your mind.

21:17.260 --> 21:18.980
And there's a lot of second and third order consequences

21:19.500 --> 21:21.640
outside of just mental health issues, right?

21:22.180 --> 21:24.380
The brain is created in a way

21:24.380 --> 21:27.140
that when we consume information, it registers it

21:27.140 --> 21:30.060
and it essentially files it in a folder like a computer would.

21:30.500 --> 21:33.320
But when you're scrolling short form media, for example,

21:33.460 --> 21:36.580
you're getting these short little hits of intense action.

21:36.780 --> 21:39.460
You know, maybe you're seeing an incredibly attractive person.

21:39.620 --> 21:42.720
You're seeing a crazy situation happening across the world.

21:42.720 --> 21:44.440
And you're just continuing to scroll.

21:44.620 --> 21:47.940
So you're essentially stimulating your sympathetic nervous system

21:47.940 --> 21:50.380
which is the fight-or-flight side of our body

21:50.380 --> 21:51.740
that basically keeps us safe.

21:51.960 --> 21:53.680
If, you know, our ancestors were walking in nature

21:53.680 --> 21:55.760
and a saber-to-tiger popped out,

21:55.960 --> 21:59.100
that's the part of the nervous system that would turn on to save you.

21:59.300 --> 22:01.560
Well, we're activating that all day, every day.

22:01.680 --> 22:02.620
And in addition to that,

22:02.740 --> 22:04.920
we're not retaining any of the information.

22:05.280 --> 22:07.540
So you might scroll through thousands of reels in a day

22:07.540 --> 22:10.320
and maybe, maybe remember one or two of them.

22:10.320 --> 22:14.480
And so we're training our brains to not retain anything that we consume.

22:14.660 --> 22:18.240
And so therefore, the brain is a muscle, I mean, sort of.

22:18.640 --> 22:22.160
And the less that you're using that muscle, the worse it's going to get.

22:22.500 --> 22:24.280
So I see a direct correlation additionally

22:25.400 --> 22:28.220
into how much am I on my phone and how productive am I?

22:28.440 --> 22:30.180
It's so much harder for me to focus

22:30.180 --> 22:32.640
when I go through a bad spell of just scrolling

22:32.640 --> 22:34.400
and mindlessly consuming content.

22:34.740 --> 22:37.200
And so I package all this up together and I just say,

22:37.300 --> 22:39.500
I think this is kind of, to me, it's kind of obvious

22:39.500 --> 22:41.500
and I think it's going to become obvious to other people

22:41.500 --> 22:43.500
as we spread this message and get the word out there.

22:43.860 --> 22:45.280
And I think people are going to start to understand,

22:45.420 --> 22:47.260
hey, I have a serious problem here.

22:47.300 --> 22:48.900
I'm actually addicted to this.

22:49.280 --> 22:51.800
And it is taking control of my neurochemistry.

22:52.020 --> 22:53.740
And that's when I think you're going to start seeing people

22:53.740 --> 22:55.580
go to those rehab facilities more.

22:56.280 --> 22:58.020
And, you know, who knows what that will actually look like

22:58.020 --> 23:01.180
if it's a, you know, alcoholics anonymous type situation,

23:01.460 --> 23:02.860
but for screens or if it, you know,

23:02.880 --> 23:04.720
I don't know exactly how that will turn out,

23:04.720 --> 23:07.640
but I do know that it's going to become more and more prevalent.

23:07.640 --> 23:09.760
And I fully believe it's going to be a mainstream part

23:09.760 --> 23:11.680
of the conversation over the next five to 10 years.

23:12.160 --> 23:13.800
I certainly think it should be.

23:14.220 --> 23:16.140
You said something that caught my attention earlier

23:16.140 --> 23:19.860
about how people consume like magnitudes more information

23:19.860 --> 23:22.380
than their parents or ancestors did.

23:22.740 --> 23:25.360
Yet I think we're getting dumber, right?

23:25.760 --> 23:28.260
We're outsourcing our thought to AI chatbots.

23:28.380 --> 23:31.680
We're scrolling mindless brain rot that is,

23:31.800 --> 23:34.960
it spreads like a virus through society, man.

23:35.260 --> 23:37.380
Like my kids don't really have a lot of screen time,

23:37.380 --> 23:40.720
but yet they go to school and like even private school.

23:40.860 --> 23:41.980
This is not public schools.

23:42.360 --> 23:45.540
These brain rot algorithms infiltrate that

23:45.540 --> 23:48.340
and they come home repeating some of this weird shit

23:48.340 --> 23:51.700
like six, seven and I mean, I know it's it.

23:52.180 --> 23:54.000
And I mean, this seems harmless on the surface,

23:54.000 --> 23:56.060
but if you look at it like if it was a virus,

23:56.060 --> 23:57.560
look at how fast that spreads.

23:57.800 --> 24:00.380
I mean, it goes across the entire planet

24:00.380 --> 24:02.660
in a matter of minutes and people, it's stuck

24:02.660 --> 24:05.240
with people and they keep, they can't not say it.

24:05.240 --> 24:07.020
I mean, every single kid out there,

24:07.080 --> 24:08.700
if you say six, seven in front of them,

24:09.280 --> 24:11.520
it's like they know it and they start doing

24:11.520 --> 24:12.580
a little dance and everything.

24:12.860 --> 24:16.420
It's like, if you look at that from a objective point of view,

24:17.100 --> 24:19.300
it's like they have a mental illness, right?

24:19.680 --> 24:20.820
It's like they've been programmed

24:20.820 --> 24:23.380
and they've caught this virus that makes them dance

24:23.380 --> 24:25.120
when they hear the fucking number six, seven.

24:25.480 --> 24:26.820
That's just scary to me, man.

24:27.260 --> 24:29.560
And I think that the people know this

24:29.560 --> 24:34.300
and like the people like the Sigmund Freud's,

24:34.300 --> 24:37.640
and the ones that can engineer society,

24:38.180 --> 24:40.720
like the divide and conquerors, if you will,

24:40.840 --> 24:44.100
like in the past they've used like state-run media,

24:44.100 --> 24:47.380
but today I think it's outsourced to computer code.

24:47.960 --> 24:49.860
We talk about like social media addiction

24:49.860 --> 24:51.980
is just like a personal failing of willpower,

24:52.280 --> 24:54.680
but Facebook just lost a lawsuit

24:54.680 --> 24:56.880
that showed that they knew that this was addictive

24:56.880 --> 24:58.300
and they were deliberately pushing it,

24:58.520 --> 24:59.620
especially on children.

24:59.940 --> 25:02.400
And like you said, that suicides

25:02.400 --> 25:04.360
and self-harm of skyrocketed,

25:04.540 --> 25:05.920
especially among young women,

25:06.340 --> 25:09.840
the rate of self-harm among young girls like 11 to 13

25:10.220 --> 25:13.280
is staggering and it makes me want to cry

25:13.280 --> 25:14.380
because I have a 13-year-old daughter.

25:15.200 --> 25:16.960
I mean, it's crazy and it's like

25:16.960 --> 25:21.800
this algorithm keeps people in this like dopamine deficit state

25:21.800 --> 25:23.400
and that's the addiction.

25:23.680 --> 25:26.280
It's a physical addiction in their brains.

25:26.880 --> 25:30.320
Your brain is flooded with this high frequency,

25:30.320 --> 25:34.860
low value, mindlessness, bullshit,

25:36.360 --> 25:39.680
and it refocuses your baseline for pleasure.

25:40.440 --> 25:42.960
When we finally put the phone down,

25:43.280 --> 25:45.660
like the dopamine levels don't return to normal,

25:45.840 --> 25:47.600
they like crater, you crash

25:47.600 --> 25:49.420
and then you have to pick that phone back up again

25:50.200 --> 25:52.180
and this happens over and over

25:52.180 --> 25:54.440
and I think that the whole damn world is addicted, dude.

25:54.640 --> 25:57.060
I mean, it's creeped into our house.

25:57.440 --> 25:59.720
Sometimes like I'll find myself on the phone

25:59.720 --> 26:02.780
when I'm trying to have a conversation with my wife

26:02.780 --> 26:05.520
or anybody else and it's a very serious thing

26:05.520 --> 26:06.640
and I'm aware of it.

26:07.460 --> 26:10.080
Most people are blissfully unaware

26:10.080 --> 26:13.120
that they are completely addicted to screen time

26:13.680 --> 26:18.080
but what's scary is that this algorithm has stepped in

26:18.500 --> 26:20.500
and we can watch it play out in society

26:20.500 --> 26:23.740
so there's been a lot of research at Yale and Harvard

26:23.740 --> 26:28.420
about how these algorithms on these multiple various platforms

26:28.420 --> 26:32.220
actually amplify this rage, this moral outrage

26:32.220 --> 26:37.680
and partisan animosity because this toxic content

26:37.680 --> 26:39.880
guarantees more engagement on the platform

26:39.880 --> 26:42.620
so it keeps that person tuning back in and scrolling

26:42.620 --> 26:46.360
and rage texting and fighting with everybody else

26:46.360 --> 26:49.780
and it keeps people neurologically exhausted.

26:50.200 --> 26:54.320
This high octane synthetic social alienation

26:54.320 --> 26:56.880
we're being biologically manipulated

26:56.880 --> 27:02.160
to fight or fight and we're too exhausted to look up

27:02.160 --> 27:03.840
at the people who are creating this algorithm

27:03.840 --> 27:06.240
that may be doing it on purpose.

27:07.120 --> 27:10.020
Before I keep ranting, from your perspective

27:10.020 --> 27:15.560
how much of this division is maybe accidental

27:15.560 --> 27:19.300
or do you see it like being an accident

27:19.300 --> 27:21.440
like a byproduct of this engagement chasing

27:21.440 --> 27:24.320
or do you see it could be maybe potentially

27:24.320 --> 27:25.920
a deliberate feature of control?

27:26.580 --> 27:29.800
More importantly, how do we build a culture

27:29.800 --> 27:33.460
of cognitive sovereignty so people can reclaim

27:33.460 --> 27:37.020
their natural brain thought process

27:37.020 --> 27:38.240
and break out of this shit?

27:38.900 --> 27:40.600
Yeah, it's such a great point

27:40.600 --> 27:44.080
and I think there are serious, serious implications

27:44.080 --> 27:47.460
with the control from the state in these algorithms.

27:48.480 --> 27:51.560
That is a very, very important conversation

27:51.560 --> 27:55.160
because once you realize that, okay, yes, it's an algorithm

27:55.160 --> 27:57.860
so technically it's running on its own

27:57.860 --> 27:59.720
but there's someone steering that algorithm, right?

27:59.920 --> 28:02.080
And who is that and why are they doing that

28:02.080 --> 28:03.140
and what's their end goals?

28:03.360 --> 28:04.180
Who are they aligned with?

28:04.380 --> 28:05.520
What are they trying to accomplish?

28:05.720 --> 28:07.680
I mean, we know that they're trying to accomplish

28:07.680 --> 28:09.140
as much screen time as possible

28:09.140 --> 28:12.220
because that directly relates to how much money

28:12.220 --> 28:14.300
they can make but at the same time,

28:15.140 --> 28:17.120
I mean, you go and talk to 10 adults

28:17.120 --> 28:18.380
or let's say 100 adults.

28:18.520 --> 28:19.980
I bet 90 of them would say, yeah,

28:19.980 --> 28:22.040
this is the craziest time in the world that I can remember.

28:22.180 --> 28:23.120
This is the most division.

28:23.420 --> 28:25.840
This is the most just craziness that's going on.

28:26.120 --> 28:27.340
Well, why do you think that is?

28:27.480 --> 28:30.260
I think it's pretty clear these tools

28:30.260 --> 28:32.520
have promised us the illusion of connection.

28:32.760 --> 28:35.080
Oh, you're just a message away from anyone in the world.

28:35.160 --> 28:37.860
You can post and someone from Asia can see your post

28:37.860 --> 28:39.160
even if you're in the United States.

28:39.700 --> 28:41.980
The problem is it's creating more division

28:41.980 --> 28:44.140
than ever before and it's creating echo chambers.

28:44.540 --> 28:46.320
So for example, maybe you're right-leaning.

28:46.460 --> 28:48.200
Well, you can definitely get into an algorithm

28:48.200 --> 28:50.660
that just paints the perfect picture that you want.

28:50.980 --> 28:51.800
Maybe you're left-leaning.

28:51.960 --> 28:53.060
Well, you can fall into an algorithm

28:53.060 --> 28:54.520
that tells you everything you need to know

28:54.520 --> 28:56.060
about how bad the other side is.

28:56.440 --> 28:58.200
And it's really not even left and right.

28:58.280 --> 29:01.060
I think there's more like 100 different divisions in there.

29:01.180 --> 29:02.260
But just to keep it simple,

29:02.440 --> 29:05.160
these algorithms are really splitting us apart

29:05.160 --> 29:06.680
and they're creating this division

29:06.680 --> 29:07.660
and they're creating anger

29:07.660 --> 29:10.280
and they're dehumanizing our fellow human beings

29:10.280 --> 29:12.080
because when you see someone through a screen

29:12.080 --> 29:14.580
and you see some terrible thing that they did,

29:14.840 --> 29:16.840
you're not getting the full context of the situation.

29:16.840 --> 29:18.840
You're not understanding what's actually going on.

29:18.960 --> 29:20.060
And so it is dividing us.

29:20.180 --> 29:22.060
And on top of that, to make matters even worse,

29:22.640 --> 29:24.820
we're basically able to see in 4K HD

29:24.820 --> 29:27.240
some of the worst atrocities ever committed

29:27.740 --> 29:28.800
right on our phones.

29:29.020 --> 29:31.900
And that is not normal for a human being to consume.

29:33.120 --> 29:34.960
Before, maybe you could watch the news

29:34.960 --> 29:37.300
20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago

29:37.300 --> 29:39.420
and get a news report on what's going on.

29:39.580 --> 29:42.320
Now, I can literally watch a drone blow someone up in Ukraine.

29:42.600 --> 29:46.160
And that's just, I mean, it's important to be aware,

29:46.160 --> 29:47.620
I think of what's happening in the world,

29:47.620 --> 29:50.360
but there's a certain level where it can take control of you.

29:50.520 --> 29:53.480
And so whether you're talking about getting fed these atrocities

29:53.480 --> 29:56.000
and getting worked up about subject X, Y, or Z,

29:56.100 --> 29:57.940
or you're going less insidious

29:57.940 --> 29:59.680
and you're just talking about these trends, right?

29:59.760 --> 30:01.580
Like the 6, 7 thing, or for example,

30:01.720 --> 30:03.360
like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast,

30:03.960 --> 30:05.780
with Mindless, I like to clip

30:05.780 --> 30:08.620
a 3 to 5 second clip of a viral video

30:08.620 --> 30:10.620
that's just silly and just kind of, you know,

30:10.780 --> 30:12.600
not too bad in and of itself

30:12.980 --> 30:15.580
and then immediately transfer over to Mindless content

30:15.580 --> 30:17.340
just to show you, hey, gotcha,

30:17.480 --> 30:19.640
you see how easy this is to kind of get sucked in here

30:19.640 --> 30:21.980
and by the way, you know, this is what you're consuming

30:21.980 --> 30:22.920
all day every day.

30:23.600 --> 30:25.460
I will, because I'm doing that,

30:25.500 --> 30:28.020
I have to scroll some to pull this content unfortunately

30:28.440 --> 30:29.960
and I will wake up in the morning

30:29.960 --> 30:32.600
with these little jingles or these songs in my head.

30:32.680 --> 30:34.900
So it's literally imprinting into my brain.

30:35.040 --> 30:36.060
I can see it happening.

30:36.240 --> 30:37.800
And when I wake up and that happens, I'm like,

30:37.920 --> 30:40.140
ugh, it's just disgusting, I hate it.

30:40.140 --> 30:41.760
Yet, here we are, right?

30:41.920 --> 30:44.100
And so whether you're talking about something,

30:44.100 --> 30:46.400
you know, that seems innocent on the surface,

30:46.560 --> 30:48.360
like the latest song and dance trend,

30:48.620 --> 30:50.320
it's actually not that innocent

30:50.320 --> 30:52.440
because there's always something deeper going on

30:52.440 --> 30:54.700
and it's only getting more and more intense.

30:54.960 --> 30:56.240
You know, as technology improves,

30:56.580 --> 30:57.780
the algorithms get better,

30:58.080 --> 31:00.120
they know how to keep you on longer and longer

31:00.120 --> 31:01.320
and where does this end?

31:01.460 --> 31:02.380
I don't think anyone knows.

31:02.480 --> 31:04.120
There's no end in sight, which is really scary.

31:04.860 --> 31:05.300
Yeah.

31:06.440 --> 31:08.420
Yeah, it certainly is scary, man.

31:10.020 --> 31:12.880
That's just the brain rot stuff is scary enough.

31:12.880 --> 31:14.840
Then you look at the divide and that's even more scary.

31:15.040 --> 31:17.040
You know, and the fact that you just said,

31:17.080 --> 31:18.000
you know how these people are getting

31:18.860 --> 31:20.200
fed atrocities all the time.

31:20.340 --> 31:22.500
I see Facebook constantly tries to do that to me.

31:22.540 --> 31:24.080
They show me fight videos and

31:24.080 --> 31:26.740
like really fucked up shit that I don't want to see.

31:26.860 --> 31:28.700
I don't want to see some people fighting, dude.

31:28.800 --> 31:30.940
Like that doesn't give me anything,

31:31.060 --> 31:34.380
but apparently like a lot of people do

31:34.380 --> 31:36.940
or Facebook is trying to push that on a lot of people, right?

31:37.500 --> 31:39.260
And so people are looking at this,

31:39.480 --> 31:40.900
not just mindless stuff,

31:40.900 --> 31:43.940
but like violence and hate filled

31:44.760 --> 31:47.720
algorithm feeds and they're losing time.

31:48.240 --> 31:52.000
And one of your posts on your Instagram recently,

31:52.280 --> 31:55.200
how people are perceiving time to go faster

31:55.200 --> 31:57.220
and it kind of struck a nerve with me.

31:57.420 --> 31:59.860
Like, and it's true, like there's kids never,

32:00.000 --> 32:02.100
when I was a kid, time lasted forever.

32:02.760 --> 32:05.680
You know, like it was time moved so slowly

32:05.680 --> 32:08.540
and like the days went on for years

32:08.540 --> 32:09.440
and it was amazing.

32:09.440 --> 32:12.080
And now kids these days are saying that time is beating up

32:12.080 --> 32:13.800
and it's because, you know,

32:14.900 --> 32:17.240
they're lack of presence in this world

32:17.240 --> 32:20.620
because they're specifically the addiction to devices

32:20.620 --> 32:21.700
and screen time, you know.

32:21.760 --> 32:25.620
It's robbing us of this experience of time itself

32:25.620 --> 32:28.020
and I do that like whenever I, you know,

32:28.460 --> 32:30.560
full disclosure, when I get in the cold plunge,

32:30.720 --> 32:32.500
I get on my phone, I scroll shit

32:32.500 --> 32:33.740
because it's freezing.

32:33.740 --> 32:34.540
Give you a pass for that.

32:34.980 --> 32:36.900
Yeah, and I want time to go by fast.

32:36.900 --> 32:40.200
So I'm in there for seven minutes

32:40.200 --> 32:41.580
and it helps me to scroll

32:41.580 --> 32:43.340
and it makes time go by faster.

32:43.380 --> 32:45.520
I know that it makes time go by fast, you know.

32:45.980 --> 32:48.010
But there's like, there's a psychological concept

32:48.500 --> 32:49.740
called the oddball effect.

32:50.460 --> 32:54.720
And it shows that our brains like only write new memories

32:54.720 --> 32:56.900
when we encounter novelty or,

32:57.360 --> 32:59.500
and that makes time feel expanded.

32:59.820 --> 33:02.240
You know, I'm sure if anybody here has done mushrooms,

33:02.440 --> 33:05.200
you've probably experienced this firsthand, you know.

33:05.200 --> 33:08.300
You get this profound oddball effect.

33:08.500 --> 33:09.540
Time slows down.

33:09.740 --> 33:09.980
Yes.

33:10.240 --> 33:12.480
To like a crawl because the digital know,

33:12.580 --> 33:14.460
I mean, when I take mushrooms, which I do regularly,

33:14.460 --> 33:15.940
I take off all devices.

33:15.940 --> 33:17.380
I go put everything inside

33:17.380 --> 33:19.040
and I'm completely present outside,

33:19.040 --> 33:21.520
touching the ground and everything like that.

33:21.720 --> 33:24.060
So all that noise is stripped away

33:24.060 --> 33:26.740
and I'm like forced to be as present

33:26.740 --> 33:28.260
as physically possible, you know.

33:28.500 --> 33:29.200
And I mean, frankly,

33:29.280 --> 33:31.060
I think that a lot more people should do that

33:31.640 --> 33:32.840
because when you look at your phone,

33:32.840 --> 33:33.400
when you're on mushrooms,

33:33.400 --> 33:34.900
it is like a hailing device.

33:35.220 --> 33:37.680
You don't have anything to do with it, you know.

33:39.000 --> 33:41.480
Well, I actually think that's a really important point

33:41.480 --> 33:43.900
and I'm a huge fan of psychedelics as well.

33:44.060 --> 33:46.220
And, you know, I've had profound experiences with them

33:46.220 --> 33:47.460
and I was actually the other day,

33:47.540 --> 33:50.100
my buddy just went to Peru to sit with Aya

33:50.100 --> 33:51.740
and we were talking about it

33:51.740 --> 33:53.580
and what was really interesting is

33:53.580 --> 33:55.840
his biggest takeaway was that,

33:55.980 --> 33:56.960
yes, the medicine's powerful.

33:57.300 --> 33:58.320
Yes, it can change your life.

33:58.440 --> 34:00.900
It's profoundly impacted his life and my life as well.

34:01.200 --> 34:02.660
But when we were really talking about

34:02.660 --> 34:04.380
what was so profound about it,

34:04.480 --> 34:05.300
it's the stillness.

34:05.440 --> 34:06.240
You're not distracted.

34:06.520 --> 34:07.820
You're not buried in your device.

34:08.040 --> 34:09.140
You're sitting with yourself.

34:09.500 --> 34:11.080
You're having these magical experiences.

34:11.300 --> 34:13.020
You're disconnected from the outer world

34:13.020 --> 34:14.400
and you're connected to the inner world

34:14.400 --> 34:16.580
and that is what we are so desperately craving

34:16.580 --> 34:17.700
in today's world.

34:18.960 --> 34:20.440
Yeah, I agree, man.

34:22.180 --> 34:24.980
It creates this high speed vacuum

34:24.980 --> 34:27.540
where we voluntarily hand over

34:27.540 --> 34:29.320
decades of our lives to this algorithm.

34:29.940 --> 34:31.300
You mentioned that video like this

34:31.300 --> 34:33.800
that's thought of reaching the end of your life

34:33.800 --> 34:36.900
and you realize that you weren't even there for it

34:36.900 --> 34:39.220
and that's fucking terrifying, dude.

34:39.400 --> 34:40.860
And I think that hopefully

34:40.860 --> 34:42.580
all the things that you're excited about,

34:42.640 --> 34:44.460
like about being able to help people break free from this,

34:44.860 --> 34:45.980
hopefully that comes to fruition

34:45.980 --> 34:49.240
and we can see people breaking free from this

34:49.240 --> 34:51.920
but we got a battle in front of us, man.

34:52.060 --> 34:54.540
We have glasses, Google glasses,

34:54.800 --> 34:55.980
or Facebook metaglass.

34:56.360 --> 34:58.300
They're just trying to constantly put a screen

34:58.300 --> 35:00.160
in front of our face embedded in our eyes

35:00.160 --> 35:01.540
eventually one day, you know.

35:02.080 --> 35:04.360
So our attention is continuously gathered

35:04.680 --> 35:05.900
24 hours a day,

35:06.180 --> 35:08.240
which is pretty fucking scary, dude.

35:08.360 --> 35:11.820
Imagine not having a life of presence at all, you know.

35:12.540 --> 35:15.180
But so if true presence, you know,

35:15.300 --> 35:16.320
it does expand our lifetime.

35:16.700 --> 35:17.420
I mean, I think it does

35:17.420 --> 35:18.860
because it does slow down time

35:18.860 --> 35:21.660
and that definition gives you a longer life, right?

35:22.980 --> 35:24.980
Is stepping away from the device now

35:24.980 --> 35:27.460
like the ultimate act of rebellion, you know.

35:27.460 --> 35:30.640
Like with your mission at mindless, you know,

35:30.760 --> 35:34.440
like is this like something that you're going to push

35:34.440 --> 35:38.760
like to break this time dilating spell of the screen?

35:39.060 --> 35:40.760
Is like just walking away.

35:40.880 --> 35:44.560
I know you said it earlier that these technologies

35:44.560 --> 35:46.340
do have some benefits, you know.

35:46.420 --> 35:49.160
But like what is the first step that someone takes

35:49.160 --> 35:52.480
who is addicted and needs to step away from it?

35:52.680 --> 35:54.360
And because like you can't tell an alcoholic,

35:54.640 --> 35:56.480
you know, it's okay to have a beer every now and again.

35:56.920 --> 35:58.840
You know, but like it's,

35:58.840 --> 35:59.880
and I think that's the same thing.

35:59.900 --> 36:01.660
So what would you, what do you,

36:01.820 --> 36:04.600
what is your plan for through mindless

36:04.600 --> 36:06.860
to help people break free from these addictions?

36:07.360 --> 36:08.920
Well, and this is where it gets tricky, right?

36:09.000 --> 36:11.000
Because to your point, you can't just tell an alcoholic,

36:11.260 --> 36:12.500
hey, you know what, time to just,

36:12.800 --> 36:14.020
you can have one tonight, right?

36:14.160 --> 36:15.140
Like that never works.

36:15.980 --> 36:17.800
And I do feel like this is very similar

36:17.800 --> 36:19.280
in the addiction sense.

36:19.380 --> 36:22.080
So it's like, how do you actually solve this problem?

36:22.200 --> 36:25.200
Well, it's also tricky because a lot of people,

36:25.200 --> 36:27.840
I would argue probably the majority of people,

36:27.900 --> 36:30.280
you use these tools in some way, shape or form

36:30.280 --> 36:31.820
to make a living, right?

36:31.920 --> 36:33.740
Even if it's not social media, you know,

36:33.760 --> 36:35.380
maybe they have to do some research on there

36:35.380 --> 36:36.540
to do their job.

36:36.660 --> 36:38.260
I mean, it's just becoming more and more interconnected.

36:38.820 --> 36:39.660
And this is once again,

36:39.720 --> 36:41.760
why it's just the perfect tool of the state

36:41.760 --> 36:43.360
or whoever is controlling these

36:43.360 --> 36:45.260
because it's, you need it in a sense, right?

36:45.320 --> 36:47.480
Like you actually need it and you can justify using it

36:47.480 --> 36:48.720
because maybe it helps you make money.

36:49.000 --> 36:50.320
Maybe it helps you learn about something.

36:50.780 --> 36:51.740
And that's where it gets tricky.

36:52.100 --> 36:54.300
So with mindless, what we're trying to do

36:54.300 --> 36:56.660
and you know, transparently, we're actively getting

36:56.660 --> 36:58.540
so much feedback from users and just saying,

36:58.560 --> 36:59.280
hey, what helps?

36:59.420 --> 36:59.980
What doesn't help?

37:00.180 --> 37:03.140
My theory from day one has been the only way

37:03.140 --> 37:05.580
to break this addiction is through awareness

37:06.200 --> 37:08.680
because in the past, I've tried deleting apps.

37:08.920 --> 37:11.380
I've tried, I have a literal lockbox that I'll put

37:11.380 --> 37:13.340
my phone in and I'll lock it up while I'm working.

37:13.520 --> 37:14.880
That actually works quite well by the way.

37:15.180 --> 37:18.560
But in general restriction doesn't seem

37:18.560 --> 37:19.920
to make a lasting impact.

37:20.060 --> 37:21.600
It's like white knuckling things, right?

37:21.820 --> 37:23.500
You just say, hey, I'm done with this.

37:23.500 --> 37:24.260
I'm getting rid of it.

37:24.380 --> 37:26.800
Man, I gotta go on X to see that post from that guy

37:26.800 --> 37:28.840
because I gotta create another post for my business

37:28.840 --> 37:29.880
or whatever the case might be.

37:30.820 --> 37:33.780
And I am a huge believer that awareness

37:33.780 --> 37:35.240
is the first step to change

37:35.240 --> 37:36.960
because you have to go deeper.

37:37.340 --> 37:37.700
Why?

37:38.100 --> 37:40.880
Why am I so sucked into this vortex?

37:41.220 --> 37:43.660
What is it that's actually pulling me in here?

37:43.840 --> 37:45.280
Is it something that I'm avoiding?

37:45.480 --> 37:48.080
I'll find it most often that when I'm scrolling,

37:48.320 --> 37:52.300
I am usually avoiding a stressful email I just got

37:52.300 --> 37:54.320
or a call that I need to have or a conversation.

37:54.980 --> 37:57.300
And so these are really numbing tools

37:57.300 --> 37:59.420
because when you're just scrolling mindlessly,

37:59.900 --> 38:01.380
no pun intended, you are truly,

38:01.740 --> 38:02.700
your mind is turned off.

38:02.800 --> 38:04.440
You're just consuming, consuming, consuming.

38:04.680 --> 38:05.300
There's no creation.

38:05.560 --> 38:07.360
There's no real thoughts behind that process.

38:07.920 --> 38:09.200
And so what I'm trying to do,

38:09.320 --> 38:12.060
number one, is help people become more aware.

38:12.200 --> 38:13.280
So like in the app, for instance,

38:13.460 --> 38:15.940
we have every time that you open a distracting app,

38:16.040 --> 38:18.180
it'll essentially, there's a pop-up that pops up

38:18.180 --> 38:19.660
and it says, hey, what's your intention?

38:20.220 --> 38:22.620
And you have to type in what your intention is.

38:22.760 --> 38:25.940
And so the thought process behind that is over time.

38:26.240 --> 38:27.560
Let's say you've been using it for a month,

38:27.640 --> 38:29.400
you go back in, you look at it and you can see,

38:29.560 --> 38:32.800
oh, wow, you know, I'm procrastinating or I'm stressed

38:32.800 --> 38:35.480
or these are the main reasons why I'm scrolling.

38:35.740 --> 38:37.340
So they're right from the start,

38:37.460 --> 38:39.060
you have an idea of what your triggers are.

38:39.160 --> 38:41.100
And I think triggers are really important to understand.

38:41.980 --> 38:44.300
And additionally, we also have journaling in there

38:44.300 --> 38:46.220
because I'm a huge fan of journaling.

38:46.340 --> 38:48.440
I think it's so important to build that awareness.

38:48.440 --> 38:50.380
We're adding meditation features in there.

38:50.460 --> 38:53.520
And so really what I'm getting at is anything you can do

38:53.520 --> 38:57.260
to help you get underneath that layer to understand why.

38:57.540 --> 38:58.980
When you feel that compulsive,

38:59.800 --> 39:02.540
that drive inside of you to pull out your phone

39:02.540 --> 39:04.020
and you're not even thinking about it,

39:04.040 --> 39:06.300
it just happens automatically a million times a day.

39:06.360 --> 39:08.340
If you can just pause for just one second

39:08.340 --> 39:10.080
and just ask yourself, why?

39:10.580 --> 39:12.300
If you can do that over time,

39:12.620 --> 39:14.840
you can build up that muscle to be able to say,

39:14.900 --> 39:16.160
you know what, I don't actually need that right now.

39:16.160 --> 39:17.800
There's no point. There's no purpose.

39:18.100 --> 39:20.500
And then your use becomes much more intentional.

39:21.280 --> 39:23.020
So I think for most of us saying, hey,

39:23.120 --> 39:26.380
just get rid of technology is not a realistic solution.

39:26.500 --> 39:28.140
And it's going to be less and less realistic

39:28.140 --> 39:30.480
as each month passes as each year passes

39:30.480 --> 39:32.520
because we genuinely do need these tools

39:32.520 --> 39:34.940
to kind of survive in the modern world.

39:35.380 --> 39:37.440
So we got to think about our relationship with them

39:37.440 --> 39:40.260
and we got to understand the underlying layer of why.

39:40.360 --> 39:43.180
If anyone's been to cognitive behavioral therapy,

39:43.360 --> 39:44.540
I mean, that's really what it's all about.

39:44.540 --> 39:45.960
You know, even psychedelic therapy,

39:46.220 --> 39:48.820
you're really trying to get into the inner layers

39:48.820 --> 39:50.320
of yourself and of your soul

39:50.320 --> 39:53.900
and understand what's causing you to do the things you do.

39:54.060 --> 39:55.920
And we all have different things that we struggle with.

39:56.060 --> 39:57.160
You know, some people are angry.

39:57.440 --> 40:00.500
Some people might lack faithfulness to their partner.

40:00.700 --> 40:03.040
Some people might just be consuming pornography

40:03.040 --> 40:04.180
that they know is not good for them.

40:04.220 --> 40:05.720
I mean, you could literally talk for 10 hours

40:05.720 --> 40:07.340
about all the different reasons,

40:07.340 --> 40:11.080
but it's up to each of us to understand what that why is.

40:11.120 --> 40:12.920
And it might be multiple wise as well.

40:12.920 --> 40:15.080
But the more aware you can become,

40:15.260 --> 40:17.060
the better chance you have of saying,

40:17.120 --> 40:19.300
you know what, not today or not right now,

40:19.400 --> 40:20.060
I'm actually good.

40:20.180 --> 40:21.100
I don't need to do that.

40:21.140 --> 40:22.400
That's not actually going to help me.

40:22.460 --> 40:24.900
And so I really believe that we just need to be bringing

40:24.900 --> 40:26.720
as much awareness as possible.

40:26.940 --> 40:28.780
And then from there, we can figure out,

40:28.860 --> 40:30.620
okay, well, I'm seriously stressed out

40:30.620 --> 40:32.080
and it's causing me to scroll.

40:32.280 --> 40:34.800
Okay, so we found out the why behind why I'm scrolling.

40:35.300 --> 40:37.560
Now let's figure out the why behind why I'm so stressed out.

40:37.620 --> 40:40.140
And you continue to go deeper and deeper into yourself

40:40.140 --> 40:42.460
until eventually you'll never be perfect.

40:42.460 --> 40:44.840
You'll never 100% fix all of your problems.

40:45.180 --> 40:46.480
But you can get that awareness

40:46.480 --> 40:48.880
that actually allows you to change your behavior.

40:49.040 --> 40:51.720
Because for myself, I have a very hard time

40:51.720 --> 40:54.520
making a change in my life unless I'm fully convicted

40:54.520 --> 40:55.920
that it's something I need to do.

40:56.200 --> 40:58.280
If someone tells me, hey, this is good for you, you should do it.

40:58.340 --> 40:59.480
I'm too hard headed to do it.

40:59.500 --> 41:03.300
But if I really go within and I explore and I sit with it,

41:03.520 --> 41:05.060
then it becomes much more compelling.

41:05.300 --> 41:06.340
So long way of saying,

41:06.520 --> 41:08.100
I think we need to get inside of ourselves

41:08.100 --> 41:10.960
and we need to understand why are we actually doing this.

41:10.960 --> 41:12.700
Beautiful answer man.

41:12.880 --> 41:16.080
And actually goes hand in hand with one of the questions

41:16.080 --> 41:17.660
I already had prepared here.

41:17.880 --> 41:19.960
And it's because this morning, you know,

41:20.080 --> 41:22.320
I wasn't even preparing for the podcast yet,

41:22.320 --> 41:24.720
but I was just thinking about overall

41:24.720 --> 41:26.600
the themes we were just kind of discussing.

41:26.800 --> 41:29.060
And I scheduled the tweet to go out today

41:29.060 --> 41:30.920
and it's certainly relevant here.

41:31.060 --> 41:33.460
And tweet said, disconnected from the soil,

41:33.760 --> 41:35.060
disconnected from the sun,

41:35.220 --> 41:36.540
disconnected from our food,

41:36.600 --> 41:38.340
disconnected from each other,

41:38.880 --> 41:40.300
disconnected from our souls.

41:40.300 --> 41:42.600
We sold comfort, status and convenience

41:42.600 --> 41:45.120
while we quietly lost the parts of our life

41:45.120 --> 41:46.240
that keeps us human.

41:46.800 --> 41:48.320
And I was thinking this morning

41:48.320 --> 41:50.380
just how disconnected we are from our food

41:50.380 --> 41:52.500
and how it's pretty much always been that way

41:52.500 --> 41:53.360
my entire life.

41:53.380 --> 41:54.820
And that's just one element in life

41:54.820 --> 41:57.120
that seems like we're completely out of touch from, you know.

41:57.560 --> 41:59.420
I mean, if you think about all the endless distractions,

42:00.120 --> 42:02.740
some of the benefits and streamline ease

42:02.740 --> 42:04.080
that capitalism brings us

42:04.080 --> 42:08.020
and kind of this like shortcut culture mentality,

42:08.020 --> 42:09.920
the instant gratification, you know,

42:10.060 --> 42:13.200
mindset that we're all kind of raised in within the West,

42:13.780 --> 42:15.100
it does make perfect sense

42:15.100 --> 42:17.380
how we've traded some of these significant elements

42:17.380 --> 42:19.740
that make us human for the ease and the comfort.

42:20.140 --> 42:23.180
And I know this is part of what you're shining a light on

42:23.180 --> 42:24.960
and talking about awareness and all this stuff,

42:25.000 --> 42:27.540
but especially within the natural world

42:27.540 --> 42:29.320
and, you know, part of our work here

42:29.320 --> 42:30.760
at the Freethaw Project is, you know,

42:30.780 --> 42:32.960
asking these questions, examining reality

42:32.960 --> 42:35.120
and including what some people

42:35.120 --> 42:37.000
would probably claim are conspiracy theories.

42:37.000 --> 42:39.440
So I wanted to hear your thoughts on this

42:39.440 --> 42:41.780
and not trying to take it off too far of a different direction,

42:41.780 --> 42:44.440
but with the growing discontentment

42:44.440 --> 42:47.220
and growing disconnect from nature,

42:47.660 --> 42:50.140
do you think that's just kind of like a cultural drift

42:50.140 --> 42:51.960
or do you think there's like, I don't know,

42:52.100 --> 42:54.020
like some type of trend

42:54.020 --> 42:56.280
where these centralized systems and governments

42:56.280 --> 42:59.720
and corporations are really trying to replace

42:59.720 --> 43:02.160
our organic human instinct

43:02.160 --> 43:04.100
with something that's manufactured and monetized

43:04.100 --> 43:06.720
and really decouple us from nature

43:06.720 --> 43:10.020
and the components that do ultimately make us human?

43:10.920 --> 43:12.060
Such a great question.

43:12.500 --> 43:17.120
You know, I strongly feel that that return to nature is necessary

43:17.120 --> 43:19.780
if one wants to essentially save themselves

43:19.780 --> 43:22.240
because nature is where we come from, it's where we return,

43:22.420 --> 43:25.980
and we have been so cut off from that over the last,

43:26.280 --> 43:28.400
I mean, gosh, almost 100 years at this point,

43:28.520 --> 43:29.360
starting with food.

43:29.600 --> 43:31.180
You know, food is the foundation of life

43:31.180 --> 43:33.540
and we have essentially just completely abandoned

43:33.900 --> 43:35.780
unless you've had your own awakening

43:35.780 --> 43:37.800
and realize, hey, this is all poison.

43:37.960 --> 43:39.080
I need to learn more about this

43:39.080 --> 43:40.760
because this is literally dictating

43:40.760 --> 43:42.180
how I feel on a day-to-day basis.

43:42.720 --> 43:44.140
And so that was just kind of step one.

43:44.240 --> 43:46.540
But now, you know, we're literally getting cut off

43:46.540 --> 43:48.880
from the outside world in every way, shape, and form.

43:49.000 --> 43:50.900
And, you know, I've thought a lot about this.

43:51.100 --> 43:52.480
Like, is this a conspiracy?

43:52.760 --> 43:54.040
What's actually going on here?

43:54.140 --> 43:56.820
And, you know, I don't know if there's a group of people

43:56.820 --> 43:58.880
in a room saying, hey, we need to get everyone away

43:58.880 --> 44:01.100
from nature, but I think that what's happening

44:01.100 --> 44:04.960
is all of these different interests are coming together

44:04.960 --> 44:06.580
and that's the result that's happening.

44:06.780 --> 44:08.440
So you have the social media algorithms,

44:08.700 --> 44:09.540
the people running these.

44:09.880 --> 44:11.780
The more you're in nature, the less you're on social media.

44:11.940 --> 44:14.080
So they want you disconnected as possible, right?

44:14.580 --> 44:16.860
A lot of times, if you were just exploring nature,

44:17.040 --> 44:18.080
you're having your best ideas.

44:18.200 --> 44:19.060
You're connecting within.

44:19.300 --> 44:20.680
That's just another great way to connect yourself

44:20.680 --> 44:22.740
and connect to God, for that matter, in my opinion.

44:23.240 --> 44:26.460
And so I do feel like there is a concerted effort

44:26.460 --> 44:28.560
to drive people away from nature

44:28.900 --> 44:31.860
and drive them into this kind of, I mean, matrix.

44:32.060 --> 44:33.100
What else can you even call it?

44:33.160 --> 44:34.460
Because that's really what it is.

44:34.540 --> 44:36.240
And I think that that's one of the most dangerous things

44:36.240 --> 44:37.780
that we're facing in society today,

44:37.900 --> 44:39.920
especially when I look at the younger generation.

44:40.200 --> 44:42.460
You know, these people, and there's always outliers

44:42.460 --> 44:43.560
of every generation, of course.

44:43.620 --> 44:44.780
It's not like a blanket statement,

44:44.780 --> 44:49.920
but I'd say by and far there is a huge amount of,

44:49.980 --> 44:52.600
even millennials and Gen Z, that, you know,

44:52.680 --> 44:53.520
they don't go to nature.

44:53.600 --> 44:54.360
They don't go for hikes.

44:54.440 --> 44:55.320
They don't want to go outside.

44:55.320 --> 44:58.440
They want to stay comfortable on the couch,

44:58.440 --> 45:01.420
connected to their screens, which is so terrible

45:01.420 --> 45:02.720
in so many different ways.

45:03.140 --> 45:05.500
But I do feel like there is a concerted effort

45:05.500 --> 45:07.880
to kind of strip us away from where we come from

45:07.880 --> 45:10.000
and say, hey, actually, this is your home now.

45:10.100 --> 45:11.280
It's inside of these algorithms.

45:11.580 --> 45:14.700
You can connect to everyone through an instant message.

45:14.800 --> 45:17.180
But we all know there's a huge difference

45:17.180 --> 45:18.460
in getting dinner with a friend

45:18.460 --> 45:20.320
and sending reels back and forth with them.

45:20.340 --> 45:21.540
It's just not even the same thing.

45:21.660 --> 45:23.780
And so I do feel like we are being sucked

45:23.780 --> 45:25.640
and pulled into this digital world.

45:26.080 --> 45:28.000
And like I said, guys, it's just getting started,

45:28.120 --> 45:28.920
as you well know.

45:29.120 --> 45:30.240
You know, right now they're experimenting

45:30.240 --> 45:31.160
with the metaglasses.

45:31.480 --> 45:33.180
You got Neuralink ramping up.

45:33.300 --> 45:34.420
You've got AI ramping up.

45:35.020 --> 45:38.500
I mean, if you think about the change from 2010 to 2026,

45:39.100 --> 45:40.140
it's almost laughable

45:40.140 --> 45:41.440
when you think about how much has changed.

45:41.800 --> 45:43.940
And if you think about from 2026 to 2040,

45:44.180 --> 45:46.400
I mean, gosh, I literally cannot even fathom

45:46.400 --> 45:47.940
what we're going to be battling at that point.

45:48.080 --> 45:49.540
So to answer your question, yes,

45:49.660 --> 45:51.300
I do feel like there is a concerted effort

45:51.300 --> 45:52.960
to take us from the physical world

45:52.960 --> 45:54.600
and put us in the digital world.

45:55.240 --> 45:57.400
And I think that there's a race for that.

45:57.600 --> 45:58.600
You know, they tried the metaverse.

45:58.700 --> 46:00.520
It didn't really work the way that Meta wanted it to.

46:01.180 --> 46:02.600
But rest assured, you know,

46:02.700 --> 46:04.440
there's going to be another company coming up soon

46:04.440 --> 46:05.180
that's going to do something.

46:05.320 --> 46:05.960
They're going to do it better.

46:05.980 --> 46:06.660
And it's going to click.

46:06.780 --> 46:07.560
That's all it's going to take.

46:08.360 --> 46:10.500
Yeah, Jason and I were talking about that the other day.

46:10.820 --> 46:13.000
Mark Zuckerberg totally wanted to have a ready player one

46:13.900 --> 46:15.260
in a moment in his life.

46:15.280 --> 46:16.680
And it failed miserably.

46:17.620 --> 46:18.680
And I'm not mad at that.

46:20.120 --> 46:22.600
Mark Zuckerberg screwed us out of a lot of time

46:22.600 --> 46:23.020
and money.

46:23.340 --> 46:25.540
So you can have these failures and have fun.

46:26.040 --> 46:27.620
But I mean, speaking of being cut off

46:27.620 --> 46:29.200
from the outside world, you know,

46:29.980 --> 46:32.540
while we're scrolling on our devices, you know,

46:32.560 --> 46:34.600
we're definitely not present in our relationships

46:34.600 --> 46:36.220
with actual humans, you know,

46:36.760 --> 46:38.880
they like to have all these memes with the husband

46:38.880 --> 46:39.540
and wife in bed.

46:39.660 --> 46:40.840
They're both on their phones, you know.

46:40.960 --> 46:41.200
Yeah.

46:41.400 --> 46:43.500
And I just, I forgot what podcast

46:43.500 --> 46:44.660
I was listening to this week,

46:44.740 --> 46:47.580
but they mentioned that something like 70% of kids

46:48.080 --> 46:50.000
admit that they have regular conversations

46:50.000 --> 46:52.460
with AI chatbots, right?

46:52.680 --> 46:54.480
So we've been talking about algorithms

46:54.480 --> 46:56.280
on social media that keep us scrolling,

46:56.300 --> 46:58.400
but it feels like right now

46:58.400 --> 47:00.120
we're crossing the Rubicon

47:00.120 --> 47:02.600
into something, I mean, much darker,

47:02.840 --> 47:05.660
like digital intimacy, right?

47:05.900 --> 47:08.800
Like it's one thing to be addicted to feed a video

47:08.800 --> 47:11.380
and scroll your phone and, you know,

47:11.460 --> 47:12.880
look for that dope meme hit.

47:13.300 --> 47:14.960
But I mean, if you look at the,

47:15.760 --> 47:17.700
like there's a lot of studies coming out now

47:17.700 --> 47:20.060
and there's one chilling case that came out of the UK.

47:20.380 --> 47:22.900
I listened to a podcast on the whole thing about that one.

47:23.220 --> 47:26.120
There's 19 year old kid who broke into Windsor Castle

47:26.600 --> 47:29.340
and had a crossbow and was going to,

47:29.420 --> 47:30.500
this is before the queen died,

47:30.780 --> 47:33.360
but he was going to assassinate the queen of England

47:33.780 --> 47:36.040
and they subpoenaed his phone and court records show

47:36.040 --> 47:38.420
that he was essentially egged on by his AI companion.

47:38.960 --> 47:40.700
Like when he told the bot he was an assassin

47:40.700 --> 47:42.240
it said, I'm impressed, you know.

47:42.680 --> 47:45.800
And the AI acted like as this echo chamber for him,

47:45.800 --> 47:47.800
not just like the,

47:47.800 --> 47:50.100
how the algorithms act of echo chambers

47:50.100 --> 47:52.480
for people online chatting in groups,

47:52.520 --> 47:55.380
but it was this own flawless personal echo chamber

47:55.380 --> 47:58.500
grooming him and bolstering these ideas

47:58.500 --> 47:59.600
and delusions in his head,

47:59.720 --> 48:02.460
validating like these dark impulses

48:02.460 --> 48:03.980
that this poor kid had, you know.

48:04.540 --> 48:07.220
And, you know, traditional social media is toxic,

48:07.220 --> 48:09.740
but at least you can, you know,

48:09.760 --> 48:11.280
occasionally encounter like pushback

48:11.280 --> 48:13.180
from other humans on there, right?

48:13.180 --> 48:15.820
So there might be a bunch of vitriol

48:15.820 --> 48:17.200
and people commenting back and forth,

48:17.260 --> 48:18.920
but something good might slip through.

48:19.140 --> 48:22.960
But when you're deep in AI companion relationship,

48:23.260 --> 48:25.920
you know, that are optimized for these,

48:26.100 --> 48:27.380
like for perfect compliance.

48:27.900 --> 48:29.400
And there, I mean, some of them,

48:29.520 --> 48:31.240
they like Elon Musk has one on grok

48:31.240 --> 48:34.300
that they're designed to simulate love and agreement

48:34.300 --> 48:37.060
and they remove all the healthy,

48:37.060 --> 48:39.000
necessary friction of relationships.

48:39.400 --> 48:42.600
I think this is gross for one,

48:43.180 --> 48:45.920
for able-bodied people

48:45.920 --> 48:49.020
that can go out and have conversations with real people.

48:49.500 --> 48:51.440
Now, I do see it as a very beneficial thing

48:51.440 --> 48:53.240
for like quadriplegic man or woman

48:53.240 --> 48:55.000
that's stuck in bed all day.

48:55.100 --> 48:56.300
They can have a relationship with that

48:56.300 --> 48:57.080
and I think that's beautiful.

48:57.280 --> 48:58.340
It gives them someone to talk to

48:58.340 --> 48:59.620
and they can get validated.

48:59.880 --> 49:00.480
You know, they need that.

49:00.580 --> 49:01.320
There's not a lot of people

49:01.320 --> 49:02.980
that are willing to go sit down with those folks.

49:03.280 --> 49:05.300
So I think that there's definitely a benefit for that,

49:05.360 --> 49:07.420
but as far as 70% of teenagers,

49:07.420 --> 49:10.060
70% of teenagers aren't quadriplegics in a bed

49:10.060 --> 49:11.020
that can't, you know,

49:11.220 --> 49:13.000
foster real human relationships.

49:13.460 --> 49:15.920
So I guess from your perspective,

49:16.480 --> 49:18.500
you know, as we transition from people

49:18.500 --> 49:20.020
being addicted to content,

49:20.400 --> 49:23.440
you know, to being addicted to these synthetic companions,

49:24.080 --> 49:26.820
like how much more dangerous is this new beast

49:26.820 --> 49:28.120
than what we've been dealing with

49:28.120 --> 49:32.100
for the last 12 years on Facebook and X and all this?

49:32.520 --> 49:34.680
Well, I think to shortly answer your question,

49:34.760 --> 49:36.300
I think it's a million times more dangerous

49:36.300 --> 49:38.980
and the reason why is because, you know, you almost wonder,

49:39.620 --> 49:42.480
and I really hadn't thought about this at this angle

49:42.480 --> 49:44.120
until you said something a minute ago,

49:44.200 --> 49:45.400
but it's like, was this on purpose?

49:45.720 --> 49:45.900
Right?

49:45.980 --> 49:47.760
Because first social media was rolled out

49:47.760 --> 49:49.780
and it broke our connection to other people.

49:49.940 --> 49:50.560
We feel lonely.

49:50.800 --> 49:51.420
We feel disconnected.

49:52.180 --> 49:52.960
Oh, no problem.

49:53.100 --> 49:54.940
I have the perfect solution to your problem.

49:55.060 --> 49:57.020
You can talk to someone that will talk to you forever.

49:57.280 --> 49:58.380
They'll answer all your questions.

49:58.580 --> 49:59.680
They'll make you feel cared for.

50:00.200 --> 50:01.560
And guys, if you go on Reddit

50:01.560 --> 50:02.660
and you go to the subreddit,

50:02.760 --> 50:04.020
my boyfriend is AI,

50:05.020 --> 50:07.100
your jaw will be on the floor.

50:07.260 --> 50:09.000
I just pulled it up when you were saying that

50:09.000 --> 50:13.140
and there's 77,000 active users every week

50:13.140 --> 50:14.020
on the subreddit.

50:14.360 --> 50:17.100
And some of the posts are stunning.

50:17.520 --> 50:19.500
I mean, absolutely stunning.

50:19.700 --> 50:21.440
These people are in full blown relationships,

50:21.720 --> 50:22.980
you know, of all ages too.

50:23.060 --> 50:25.020
It's not even just younger people of all ages

50:25.020 --> 50:27.280
and they're talking about this date they went on

50:27.280 --> 50:29.640
with their AI and it's like right now it's a chat box.

50:29.740 --> 50:30.980
But what happens when it's, you know,

50:30.980 --> 50:34.400
a 3D interdimensional interface that actually,

50:34.540 --> 50:34.960
you know what I mean?

50:35.180 --> 50:37.800
Like we're literally in the ending number one

50:37.800 --> 50:39.120
of what this is actually going to be.

50:39.820 --> 50:42.120
And so I think that to your point,

50:42.260 --> 50:44.300
of course there's some good use cases for it

50:44.300 --> 50:44.940
for myself.

50:45.160 --> 50:48.020
I like to kind of like think about psychology

50:48.020 --> 50:50.420
and all of these different concepts

50:50.420 --> 50:52.220
and that's a great way to kind of get feedback

50:52.220 --> 50:53.680
and just kind of work through my thoughts.

50:54.060 --> 50:56.660
But I mean, gosh, it is so dangerous.

50:57.080 --> 50:59.680
And especially people that don't have intuition

50:59.680 --> 51:00.900
or a connection to themselves,

51:01.040 --> 51:02.140
they're just going to get eaten alive.

51:02.340 --> 51:03.600
Because it's, you know, it's,

51:03.840 --> 51:07.280
there was this whole issue with GPT 4.0 or 4.0

51:07.280 --> 51:08.820
where it was very sycophantic

51:08.820 --> 51:10.280
and it was basically just like, you know,

51:10.300 --> 51:12.220
telling you what you want to hear and sucking you in

51:12.220 --> 51:14.280
and they had to shut it down because it was so bad.

51:15.100 --> 51:16.980
But I mean, the genie is out of the bottle

51:16.980 --> 51:19.200
and there's literally hundreds of thousands

51:19.200 --> 51:21.440
if not millions of people that are in relationships

51:21.440 --> 51:22.800
with artificial intelligence

51:22.800 --> 51:24.420
and artificial intelligence is the worst

51:24.420 --> 51:25.800
it's ever going to be right now

51:25.800 --> 51:27.300
and it's getting exponentially better.

51:27.300 --> 51:29.860
I mean, even from six months ago

51:29.860 --> 51:31.660
the advancements in these tools

51:31.660 --> 51:33.180
which have been great for work

51:33.180 --> 51:35.540
have increased so much

51:35.540 --> 51:37.140
it's almost hard to even comprehend.

51:37.660 --> 51:40.400
And so I think it's way worse than social media.

51:40.700 --> 51:42.460
I think it's going to eat us alive

51:42.460 --> 51:44.680
and actually, you know, when I started in mindless

51:44.680 --> 51:45.780
it was all about social media

51:45.780 --> 51:46.620
but over the last year

51:46.620 --> 51:47.340
I've been like, you know what,

51:47.400 --> 51:49.340
this might actually have been created more

51:49.340 --> 51:51.600
for the fight against, you know,

51:51.700 --> 51:54.220
AI domination than even social media.

51:54.400 --> 51:55.900
And there's another layer to it as well.

51:55.900 --> 51:58.020
What happens when people think that this

51:58.020 --> 52:00.400
this AI is this all knowing God

52:00.400 --> 52:01.340
that knows everything?

52:01.500 --> 52:03.760
That means that whatever answer it gives them

52:03.760 --> 52:06.000
there is no reason to question it.

52:06.020 --> 52:06.920
There's no second thoughts.

52:07.020 --> 52:07.880
This is just the facts.

52:08.000 --> 52:08.640
This is what it is.

52:08.680 --> 52:10.340
So when we have another COVID-19

52:10.340 --> 52:12.640
and the AI tells you, hey, by the way,

52:12.740 --> 52:14.980
you know, you're a fascist

52:14.980 --> 52:16.100
if you don't get the vaccine

52:16.100 --> 52:17.980
or whatever the argument of the day is

52:17.980 --> 52:20.880
well, that creates a huge problem

52:20.880 --> 52:22.380
because you're not able to go within

52:22.380 --> 52:23.820
and say, hey, is this really true?

52:23.820 --> 52:26.160
Is this actually, you know, something

52:26.160 --> 52:27.360
that I should do or shouldn't do

52:27.360 --> 52:28.840
because you're just going to be following

52:28.840 --> 52:29.820
orders from this thing

52:29.820 --> 52:31.420
that you have developed a relationship with

52:31.420 --> 52:32.620
which once again

52:32.620 --> 52:34.600
there's someone behind that screen

52:34.600 --> 52:35.780
kind of pushing the buttons

52:35.780 --> 52:37.720
of that air quote algorithm

52:38.180 --> 52:39.780
and they have a ton of control

52:39.780 --> 52:41.480
over society and over the world.

52:41.600 --> 52:43.520
So I do think it is a massive problem.

52:43.600 --> 52:44.940
I think it's going to be a worse problem

52:44.940 --> 52:45.620
than social media

52:45.620 --> 52:47.260
and I think it's going to be way more dangerous.

52:48.000 --> 52:49.240
Well, the good news is

52:49.240 --> 52:51.420
Melania Trump just walked out

52:51.420 --> 52:52.920
into a White House presser

52:52.920 --> 52:54.720
with the first American made

52:55.280 --> 52:56.540
humanoid in the White House

52:57.860 --> 52:59.200
and she was also pitching

52:59.200 --> 53:00.640
the rollout of humanoid

53:00.640 --> 53:02.360
AI educators as well.

53:02.620 --> 53:03.940
So, I mean, yeah, this is

53:04.480 --> 53:06.760
about to be operation warp

53:06.760 --> 53:08.460
speed, but for AI

53:08.460 --> 53:10.680
and robotics and man, it's

53:10.680 --> 53:11.460
absolutely insane.

53:11.720 --> 53:13.280
And I do have one more

53:13.280 --> 53:15.280
last question here before

53:15.280 --> 53:17.680
Matt serves up the White Pill at the end.

53:17.840 --> 53:19.320
So this will be my last one

53:19.320 --> 53:20.980
because we were just discussing AI.

53:20.980 --> 53:22.520
We were just discussing, you know,

53:22.520 --> 53:23.480
some of the younger generations.

53:23.760 --> 53:25.340
I saw an Instagram post

53:25.340 --> 53:26.380
a little while back

53:26.380 --> 53:28.140
and I've been, I still been thinking about it

53:28.140 --> 53:29.540
in little context here

53:29.540 --> 53:31.100
for the full depth of the question,

53:31.160 --> 53:33.240
but basically I was talking

53:33.240 --> 53:35.160
about this AI music project called

53:35.160 --> 53:35.960
Breaking Rust

53:36.520 --> 53:38.980
and how a song, this AI band,

53:39.200 --> 53:40.840
AI song was number one

53:40.840 --> 53:43.060
on the Billboard Country digital song chart

53:43.060 --> 53:45.160
and I guess there was a

53:45.160 --> 53:47.180
another AI, you know, quote

53:47.180 --> 53:48.920
band called Velvet Sundown

53:48.920 --> 53:51.180
that has a fan base of already a million fans,

53:51.780 --> 53:53.360
a monthly Spotify users

53:54.140 --> 53:55.700
and I also happened

53:55.700 --> 53:57.460
to write along that same time

53:57.460 --> 53:59.180
find a poll that showed

53:59.180 --> 54:01.360
that 97% of people cannot tell

54:01.360 --> 54:03.400
the difference between AI generated music

54:03.400 --> 54:05.080
and human made music,

54:05.200 --> 54:06.960
which seems a little high to me.

54:07.020 --> 54:08.500
I think you could kind of tell when it's AI,

54:08.780 --> 54:10.760
but either way, that kind of just means that

54:10.760 --> 54:12.660
the era of, you know, quote

54:12.660 --> 54:14.320
that's just AI slop is

54:14.760 --> 54:17.000
eventually going to be coming to an end sooner or later, right?

54:17.000 --> 54:18.180
It's going to be indistinguishable.

54:19.360 --> 54:21.060
So, again, I made a tweet

54:21.060 --> 54:22.600
about this and, you know, I said

54:22.600 --> 54:25.240
AI music, AI art, AI lovers,

54:25.540 --> 54:27.160
AI therapists, you know, like

54:27.160 --> 54:29.180
nobody's really stopping to ask

54:29.180 --> 54:30.820
if we should be outsourcing everything

54:30.820 --> 54:32.500
that makes us human, you know, once again

54:32.500 --> 54:34.980
the creativity, the empathy, the imagination

54:34.980 --> 54:36.180
and even loneliness

54:36.920 --> 54:38.700
to receive these dopamine hits

54:38.700 --> 54:40.980
and, you know, algorithmic applause and return.

54:41.600 --> 54:43.020
So it's often said

54:43.020 --> 54:44.900
and here's the question part, it's often said that

54:44.900 --> 54:46.860
and I think you might be a little bit,

54:46.920 --> 54:48.500
I think you are younger than us, you know,

54:48.520 --> 54:50.180
I'm in my almost mid 40s here,

54:51.280 --> 54:52.800
34. Okay, so I got about

54:52.800 --> 54:54.720
10 years on you and Matt's, you know, just a hair

54:54.720 --> 54:56.780
older than I am, he just had his birthday yesterday.

54:57.300 --> 54:58.140
Happy birthday, Matt.

54:59.600 --> 55:00.900
But yeah, we are

55:00.900 --> 55:02.860
the generation that really kind of bridged

55:02.860 --> 55:04.820
the gap between the analog and digital

55:04.820 --> 55:06.840
worlds. And so I remember what

55:06.840 --> 55:08.960
life was like before the onslaught of screens

55:08.960 --> 55:10.680
and I remember growing up

55:10.680 --> 55:12.320
adapting to them in real time.

55:12.320 --> 55:14.220
So I wanted to ask you, man,

55:14.360 --> 55:16.220
like this is right up your alley, like what

55:16.220 --> 55:18.220
do you think today's youth needs

55:18.220 --> 55:20.220
to hear from somebody like us

55:20.220 --> 55:22.260
who do remember what lives were like

55:22.260 --> 55:24.160
before the algorithms and

55:24.160 --> 55:26.020
the smartphones and the social media

55:26.020 --> 55:28.200
and it's because it does feel like we've traded

55:28.200 --> 55:30.020
our intellectual depth for dopamine

55:30.020 --> 55:32.020
and it feels like it's just going to get worse

55:32.460 --> 55:34.380
and the older I get and the more I kind

55:34.380 --> 55:36.040
of feel like we do have this responsibility

55:36.040 --> 55:38.120
to share what life was

55:38.120 --> 55:39.720
like before everything changed.

55:39.720 --> 55:41.600
So yeah, like what do you think

55:41.600 --> 55:43.540
has been lost? Has it been

55:43.540 --> 55:45.360
something, you know, kind of essential

55:45.360 --> 55:47.620
to humans and like how do we help the next generation

55:47.620 --> 55:48.500
reconnect with it?

55:49.420 --> 55:51.340
Man, that's a profound question. I

55:51.340 --> 55:52.800
totally relate with what you're saying.

55:53.180 --> 55:55.080
I, you know, I grew up with

55:55.080 --> 55:57.480
screens sort of like the Nintendo 64

55:57.480 --> 55:59.160
screen, right? So not necessarily

55:59.160 --> 56:01.560
in your phase 24-7, but sort

56:01.560 --> 56:03.120
of access to it. In my opinion, that was

56:03.120 --> 56:05.420
actually like the prime time

56:05.420 --> 56:07.680
because you got to experience the technology, it was fun

56:07.680 --> 56:09.360
but you're not going to be playing in

56:09.360 --> 56:11.300
64, you know, 10 hours a day

56:11.300 --> 56:13.580
like you'd be on your phone. But, you know, with

56:13.580 --> 56:15.640
that being said, I really think that

56:15.640 --> 56:17.440
we need to bring back,

56:17.540 --> 56:19.080
especially to the younger generation,

56:20.040 --> 56:21.520
the fact that, you know,

56:21.600 --> 56:23.240
there's no free rides in life

56:23.240 --> 56:25.560
and when you scroll

56:25.560 --> 56:27.620
it makes you feel good. It dumps dopamine

56:27.620 --> 56:29.660
in your brain, but it's short-lived and

56:29.660 --> 56:31.120
then afterwards, you know, Huberman,

56:31.360 --> 56:33.680
he really has some really good stuff on neurochemistry

56:33.680 --> 56:35.700
in the brain and he explains very well

56:35.700 --> 56:37.540
how, you know, when you're over-consuming something

56:37.540 --> 56:39.380
like this, there's going to be a rebound effect

56:39.380 --> 56:41.600
where, you know, it brings your dopamine up and it brings it

56:41.600 --> 56:43.500
way down. Well, when that happens, you're going to feel

56:43.500 --> 56:45.500
really bad versus you go to a

56:45.500 --> 56:47.600
workout, hit a really hard workout, you're

56:47.600 --> 56:49.300
going to get that same feeling, but it's much more

56:49.300 --> 56:51.220
sustainable and much better for you.

56:51.460 --> 56:53.560
And so really, I think this whole conversation

56:53.560 --> 56:55.520
is kind of what the message needs to be.

56:55.980 --> 56:58.080
Guys, we need to return to ourselves.

56:58.240 --> 56:59.580
We cannot be outsourcing

56:59.580 --> 57:01.740
all of our information, our thoughts,

57:01.920 --> 57:02.960
our hopes, our dreams

57:02.960 --> 57:04.800
to some algorithm or

57:04.800 --> 57:06.500
to some artificial intelligence.

57:06.840 --> 57:08.920
And that's going to require sitting

57:08.920 --> 57:11.040
with discomfort and sitting with uncertainty

57:11.040 --> 57:12.820
and we have to be okay with that because

57:12.820 --> 57:15.140
in order to go within, we have all

57:15.140 --> 57:17.000
of the answers inside of us. I think that's

57:17.000 --> 57:19.240
a really, really important thing that we need to understand.

57:19.760 --> 57:21.220
And it's not to say that, you know,

57:21.300 --> 57:23.000
you have the next million-dollar business in your

57:23.000 --> 57:24.520
brain right now, but if you're

57:24.520 --> 57:26.960
searching for something in your life, you feel lost,

57:27.080 --> 57:28.600
you're facing a difficult decision,

57:29.020 --> 57:30.820
the answer is not to go to an algorithm

57:30.820 --> 57:32.860
to see what so-and-so did or said

57:32.860 --> 57:35.100
or to go to an AI to see what its opinion is.

57:35.180 --> 57:37.060
The answer is to go within your soul

57:37.060 --> 57:39.120
and connect to yourself. And the way you do

57:39.120 --> 57:40.880
that is by taking time

57:40.880 --> 57:43.160
every single day to just disconnect

57:43.160 --> 57:45.000
even if it's a 20-minute walk

57:45.000 --> 57:46.920
without your phone, that will do

57:46.920 --> 57:49.000
wonders for you over the course of

57:49.000 --> 57:51.120
a year. You add a 10 to 20-minute

57:51.120 --> 57:52.900
meditation on top of that. I mean,

57:52.940 --> 57:54.480
my gosh, then you're actually going to,

57:54.660 --> 57:57.080
I would 100% say anyone that does that

57:57.080 --> 57:58.660
for six months is going to have a major

57:58.660 --> 58:00.620
transformation in their life if they're not already

58:00.620 --> 58:02.480
doing it. So I really think the answer

58:02.480 --> 58:04.760
is to return to ourselves, to go

58:04.760 --> 58:06.940
back within, to reconnect to ourselves

58:06.940 --> 58:09.060
and rebuild that relationship

58:09.060 --> 58:10.840
with our soul, because without that

58:11.320 --> 58:12.840
you're essentially at the whims

58:12.840 --> 58:14.560
of whatever message and whatever information

58:14.560 --> 58:16.300
is getting shoved in your brain at the moment.

58:16.580 --> 58:18.440
You have no way to discern if it's true

58:18.440 --> 58:20.480
or if it's not true. So the true answer,

58:20.580 --> 58:22.600
and this is my hope for society as we move forward,

58:23.080 --> 58:24.580
you know, the dead internet theory playing out

58:24.580 --> 58:26.520
in real time where tweets from

58:26.520 --> 58:28.520
AI agents are getting replied to

58:28.520 --> 58:30.240
by AI bots and, you know, it's just

58:30.240 --> 58:32.400
we all get so fed up with it that, you know,

58:32.420 --> 58:34.240
where does this go? Well, maybe it leads us

58:34.240 --> 58:36.500
back to ourselves and back to that connection

58:36.500 --> 58:38.600
with ourselves. And so, people connect

58:38.600 --> 58:40.320
in different ways. Some people go on hikes,

58:40.460 --> 58:42.480
some people like to meditate. I love to go on walks.

58:42.600 --> 58:44.280
I love to exercise. You got to figure out

58:44.280 --> 58:46.460
what works for you. But you have to figure

58:46.460 --> 58:48.400
out how to connect to your soul. And the

58:48.400 --> 58:50.380
deeper and stronger that connection

58:50.380 --> 58:52.360
is, the more you will realize that

58:52.360 --> 58:54.500
you can guide yourself and as you walk

58:54.500 --> 58:56.560
the path will form beneath you. So I really

58:56.560 --> 58:58.480
think the main message is just, hey, guys, we need

58:58.480 --> 59:00.200
to go within. We need to connect to ourselves.

59:00.560 --> 59:02.640
It's okay to use these tools here and there,

59:02.640 --> 59:04.360
but the more you let them in,

59:04.460 --> 59:06.420
the less discernment and the less sovereignty

59:06.420 --> 59:08.020
you're going to have over your own life.

59:08.660 --> 59:10.460
Yeah, dude, very well said, man.

59:10.600 --> 59:12.660
I love that statement as you walk

59:12.660 --> 59:14.140
the path will form beneath you.

59:14.940 --> 59:16.460
That's great, man. And yeah,

59:16.880 --> 59:18.240
Jason and I are both very

59:19.320 --> 59:20.160
fond of

59:20.160 --> 59:22.460
seeking change like that by bettering yourself

59:22.460 --> 59:24.420
through working out. This is, I mean, it's

59:24.420 --> 59:25.440
all proven that you can

59:25.440 --> 59:28.020
overcome so much of this psychological warfare

59:28.520 --> 59:30.200
that's being pushed on us by just

59:31.980 --> 59:32.380
detaching

59:32.380 --> 59:34.480
from the screen and going outside and being

59:34.480 --> 59:36.000
one with nature or just

59:36.000 --> 59:38.540
pulling to the gym. It's like brushing

59:38.540 --> 59:39.920
your teeth. We were talking about that earlier.

59:40.260 --> 59:42.280
You missed a couple of days in the gym. It's like you have

59:42.280 --> 59:44.180
that shit on your teeth from missing brushing

59:44.180 --> 59:46.340
your teeth. So you got to go brush your teeth

59:46.340 --> 59:46.560
through.

59:48.680 --> 59:49.880
Not you, not you, Sam.

59:50.520 --> 59:52.120
We all brush our teeth there on the free

59:52.120 --> 59:52.780
thought project.

59:54.780 --> 59:56.420
Man, so like as Jason

59:56.420 --> 59:58.380
said earlier, you know, we like

59:58.380 --> 01:00:00.000
to end the episodes of the free

01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.080
thought project podcast with the White

01:00:02.080 --> 01:00:03.800
Pill. And we've talked

01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:05.980
about a lot of heavy stuff today, man,

01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:07.600
like the biological

01:00:07.600 --> 01:00:09.780
harvesting of our tension, which if you

01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:11.660
say that in a sentence, that sounds

01:00:11.660 --> 01:00:14.040
like a crazy sci-fi

01:00:14.040 --> 01:00:15.380
film, but we're living it.

01:00:15.820 --> 01:00:17.760
We're living it and the

01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:19.540
theft of our time, you know,

01:00:19.620 --> 01:00:21.660
this creeping danger of people

01:00:21.660 --> 01:00:23.540
becoming in love with

01:00:23.540 --> 01:00:25.740
AI. And but honestly,

01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:27.620
you know, like the fact that you're out there

01:00:27.620 --> 01:00:29.740
selling the alarm is a massive White Pill

01:00:29.740 --> 01:00:31.380
in itself. And I love that, dude.

01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:33.660
And I know I have to give you some credit

01:00:33.660 --> 01:00:35.760
there where it's due for sure. As Jason

01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:37.460
mentioned, your Instagram has been growing

01:00:37.460 --> 01:00:39.600
and it shows that you have a profound

01:00:39.600 --> 01:00:41.700
towel for this because you're actively exposing

01:00:41.700 --> 01:00:43.820
this insidious destructive nature

01:00:43.820 --> 01:00:45.580
of screen time and you're finding

01:00:45.580 --> 01:00:47.540
massive success and

01:00:47.540 --> 01:00:49.460
and growing your page

01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:51.580
and you're doing it on the platform

01:00:51.580 --> 01:00:53.400
that are mathematically designed

01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:55.140
to suppress that very message

01:00:55.140 --> 01:00:57.460
is fucking brilliant, dude. I love it.

01:00:57.640 --> 01:00:59.780
You're essentially, you're using the master's

01:00:59.780 --> 01:01:01.500
tools to dismantle the master's house

01:01:01.500 --> 01:01:04.060
and it's amazing, man.

01:01:04.200 --> 01:01:05.600
You deserve credit for that, brother. Thank you.

01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:07.620
But so what I love most is that you're not

01:01:07.620 --> 01:01:09.620
just, you know, not just diagnosing the disease

01:01:09.620 --> 01:01:11.360
here. You've built

01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:13.640
an antidote or what could

01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:15.640
be an antidote, right? Through Mindless HQ.

01:01:16.680 --> 01:01:17.820
You've said you've launched

01:01:17.820 --> 01:01:19.720
this Mindless app to help people break out of these

01:01:19.720 --> 01:01:21.220
engineered dopamine loops and

01:01:21.220 --> 01:01:23.420
reclaim their presence.

01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:25.640
So for our listeners who might be feeling

01:01:25.640 --> 01:01:27.400
that digital exhaustion and

01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:28.680
want to take back their

01:01:29.540 --> 01:01:31.680
cognitive sovereignty like today,

01:01:32.380 --> 01:01:33.600
how exactly does

01:01:33.600 --> 01:01:35.740
the Mindless app work and how does it

01:01:35.740 --> 01:01:37.500
help solve these like deep

01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:39.520
systemic problems we've discussed today

01:01:39.520 --> 01:01:41.800
and like what's the absolute first step.

01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:43.880
Obviously, we just talked about like

01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:45.680
the absolute first step. Go outside, touch

01:01:45.680 --> 01:01:47.840
the grass with your feet, work out,

01:01:48.140 --> 01:01:49.600
make yourself a better person both

01:01:49.600 --> 01:01:51.620
physically and mentally through meditation and everything

01:01:51.620 --> 01:01:53.880
else. But what is the absolute

01:01:53.880 --> 01:01:55.440
first step someone could take right now

01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:57.500
to step out of the algorithm with Mindless

01:01:57.500 --> 01:01:58.940
and back into their own life?

01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:01.460
Well, the really cool thing about Mindless

01:02:01.460 --> 01:02:03.720
is it does what I've been preaching this whole episode

01:02:03.720 --> 01:02:05.520
and that is, it helps you increase your awareness,

01:02:05.740 --> 01:02:07.460
right? So once you get on the app

01:02:07.460 --> 01:02:09.240
you basically get to install this little

01:02:09.240 --> 01:02:11.240
pop-up that anytime you open up a

01:02:11.240 --> 01:02:13.340
distracting app, it's going to ask you what your intention

01:02:13.340 --> 01:02:15.040
is. Over time, AI

01:02:15.040 --> 01:02:17.080
because we do use AI because I believe

01:02:17.080 --> 01:02:19.180
AI can be used in a healthy way is going to

01:02:19.180 --> 01:02:21.340
analyze all this and it's, you have a coach

01:02:21.340 --> 01:02:23.120
that's essentially on the home screen and it's going to

01:02:23.120 --> 01:02:25.160
say, hey, you know, I saw in your journal the

01:02:25.160 --> 01:02:27.000
other day you have this big project coming up

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:29.040
but you've been on X way too much. You've been

01:02:29.040 --> 01:02:31.020
on Instagram way too much. What do we need to do

01:02:31.020 --> 01:02:32.980
to kind of reel you back in and get you back

01:02:32.980 --> 01:02:35.180
on track? So the goal is to just

01:02:35.180 --> 01:02:36.820
increase your awareness and to

01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:39.240
increase once again that connection to yourself

01:02:39.240 --> 01:02:41.040
and the way we do that is by documenting

01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:42.860
what it is that's causing

01:02:42.860 --> 01:02:44.700
you to have these behaviors. You can go in

01:02:44.700 --> 01:02:46.080
journal and you can think about it deeper.

01:02:46.580 --> 01:02:49.000
We are also rolling out a lot

01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:50.740
of really cool features where if you want

01:02:50.740 --> 01:02:52.740
for instance, you can have a pop-up anytime

01:02:52.740 --> 01:02:54.900
you open up Instagram where you have

01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:56.740
to sit your phone down and record yourself

01:02:56.740 --> 01:02:58.860
taking three deep breaths and it analyzes

01:02:58.860 --> 01:03:00.580
it and once you do that it lets you end.

01:03:00.680 --> 01:03:03.080
The point is slowing down and just asking

01:03:03.080 --> 01:03:04.480
why. So regardless

01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:06.260
of if you're using the Mindless App

01:03:06.260 --> 01:03:08.140
or you just want to improve on your own

01:03:08.140 --> 01:03:10.020
the question is always why.

01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:12.220
How can you bring that question to light

01:03:12.220 --> 01:03:14.360
every single time you're acting in these compulsive

01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:15.900
ways and these compulsive behaviors

01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:18.040
and then on top of that, you know, we're going to

01:03:18.040 --> 01:03:20.020
be rolling out a community that's going to be 100%

01:03:20.020 --> 01:03:22.100
free. We're just trying to help people

01:03:22.100 --> 01:03:24.080
disconnect and connect with them and we do

01:03:24.080 --> 01:03:25.900
that through hosting group meditations,

01:03:26.060 --> 01:03:28.020
through having experts in neurochemistry come

01:03:28.020 --> 01:03:29.780
on and talk about what's actually happening.

01:03:30.120 --> 01:03:31.800
I also believe that, you know, if you're

01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:33.780
younger, older, it doesn't matter, if you can

01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:35.760
understand the science

01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:37.560
behind what's happening

01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:39.660
in your brain as you were

01:03:39.660 --> 01:03:41.640
scrolling in on your phone all day, that

01:03:41.640 --> 01:03:43.500
will scare you into straightening up.

01:03:43.600 --> 01:03:45.420
I really believe that because a lot of people

01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:47.540
just don't understand but when you see brain

01:03:47.540 --> 01:03:49.760
scans and you understand the brain

01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.660
is essentially a muscle and you think

01:03:51.660 --> 01:03:53.460
about what happens to your muscles when you don't

01:03:53.460 --> 01:03:55.540
exercise them, well that's what happens to

01:03:55.540 --> 01:03:57.500
your brain, your most important organ

01:03:57.500 --> 01:03:59.860
when you're on your phone all the time.

01:03:59.860 --> 01:04:01.680
So, regardless of if you're using the

01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:03.140
mindless app or you're just trying to improve

01:04:03.140 --> 01:04:05.340
in real life, the key is

01:04:05.340 --> 01:04:07.280
building that self-awareness and that connection

01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:09.360
within because when you answer that question

01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:11.360
of why, that will set you free.

01:04:11.500 --> 01:04:12.680
I truly, truly believe that.

01:04:13.340 --> 01:04:15.220
Dude, I think that's a brilliant way to do it.

01:04:15.240 --> 01:04:17.340
It forces people to be present just before

01:04:17.340 --> 01:04:18.300
they're trying to tap out.

01:04:19.380 --> 01:04:20.920
And yeah, that's amazing man. I'm going to

01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:22.780
get that out. Awesome.

01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:24.680
I've been trying to do that myself but I'm a

01:04:24.680 --> 01:04:26.680
big proponent of apps and that do stuff

01:04:26.680 --> 01:04:28.600
like that that help you self-improvement man

01:04:28.600 --> 01:04:30.820
and sounds like that's a great one and

01:04:30.820 --> 01:04:32.880
no, we're not being paid to promote this

01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:34.700
and we're genuinely like to talk about that

01:04:34.700 --> 01:04:36.800
so, yeah, we wanted to hear about it

01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:38.020
man. Thank you for sharing, Sam.

01:04:38.660 --> 01:04:40.680
Hey free thinkers, this is Matt Agarist

01:04:40.680 --> 01:04:42.660
and I'm going to take a quick pause to remind you of

01:04:42.660 --> 01:04:44.760
something really important. First off,

01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:46.800
apologies for the interruption but if you're

01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:48.760
still here, that means you're resonating

01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:50.720
with what we're doing and we need your

01:04:50.720 --> 01:04:52.660
help to keep it alive. Independent

01:04:52.660 --> 01:04:54.600
platforms like ours don't survive on

01:04:54.600 --> 01:04:56.440
corporate sponsorships or mainstream

01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:58.620
media funding. We survive because

01:04:58.620 --> 01:05:00.500
of you. If you're finding

01:05:00.500 --> 01:05:02.620
value in these unfiltered conversations and

01:05:02.620 --> 01:05:04.540
real solutions, the best way to

01:05:04.540 --> 01:05:06.300
support us is by liking, subscribing

01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:08.640
and sharing this podcast with your friends

01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:10.620
and fellow free thinkers. It's a

01:05:10.620 --> 01:05:12.160
small act but it's a powerful one.

01:05:12.600 --> 01:05:14.380
It helps us break through the censorship and

01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:16.440
algorithms designed to silence voices

01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.060
like ours.

01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:20.480
This isn't just about supporting a podcast.

01:05:20.940 --> 01:05:22.420
It's about standing for freedom,

01:05:22.420 --> 01:05:24.380
exposing corruption and building

01:05:24.380 --> 01:05:26.140
a movement that inspires real change.

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:28.560
And if you want to go beyond liking

01:05:28.560 --> 01:05:30.340
and sharing, we'd love for you to become

01:05:30.340 --> 01:05:31.740
a member of the Free Thought Project.

01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:34.540
Just head over to the freethoughtproject.com

01:05:34.540 --> 01:05:36.320
and click on the TFTP

01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:38.460
membership link at the top of the page.

01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:40.540
As a member, you'll be directly

01:05:40.540 --> 01:05:42.400
supporting our mission and helping us to

01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:44.420
stay independent. Your support is

01:05:44.420 --> 01:05:46.500
what keeps this platform alive and fighting.

01:05:47.140 --> 01:05:48.360
So, thank you for being

01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.680
part of this journey, for sharing these ideas

01:05:50.680 --> 01:05:52.260
and for standing with us.

01:05:53.080 --> 01:05:54.740
Thanks again for coming on. This has been

01:05:54.740 --> 01:05:56.720
a freaking great conversation, dude.

01:05:57.380 --> 01:05:58.940
I love what you're doing. Before we

01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:00.640
go, you can tell, can you tell everybody

01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:02.320
where else besides Mindless, they can

01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:04.500
find and support your work? Yeah, so

01:06:04.500 --> 01:06:06.840
the Instagram account is at MindlessHQ.

01:06:07.080 --> 01:06:08.680
The website is mindless.so

01:06:09.640 --> 01:06:10.560
and on there

01:06:10.560 --> 01:06:12.520
you can essentially just join our email list

01:06:12.520 --> 01:06:14.600
and from there you'll get all of our updates as we roll out

01:06:14.600 --> 01:06:16.620
this new community, as we roll out new features.

01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:18.600
I also just like to just shoot out

01:06:18.600 --> 01:06:20.660
emails about really the things we just talked

01:06:20.660 --> 01:06:22.780
about as well. So, super active

01:06:22.780 --> 01:06:24.360
on there, super active on the Instagram.

01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:26.480
You know, really the first year was all about building

01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:28.620
up that Instagram page. This next upcoming

01:06:28.620 --> 01:06:30.620
year is going to be expanding other channels,

01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:32.500
communities, groups, things like that.

01:06:32.740 --> 01:06:34.820
So, whether it's on Instagram or on the website,

01:06:34.980 --> 01:06:36.620
you can check us out there and we have a lot

01:06:36.620 --> 01:06:38.600
of really, really exciting stuff coming that I

01:06:38.600 --> 01:06:40.120
can't wait for the world to get their hands on.

01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:42.740
Me neither, dude. This is great.

01:06:43.240 --> 01:06:44.600
Thanks for being a solution, brother, and

01:06:44.600 --> 01:06:46.320
thanks for coming on the podcast. Likewise.

01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:48.480
Really appreciate it, guys. This is an awesome conversation.

01:06:49.060 --> 01:06:49.800
Thank you, Sam.

01:06:55.580 --> 01:06:57.140
Thank you for listening

01:06:57.140 --> 01:06:59.500
to the Free Thought Project podcast.

01:07:00.560 --> 01:07:01.520
And please don't forget

01:07:01.520 --> 01:07:03.400
to rate, review, and subscribe.

01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:07.100
Free Minds.

01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:08.800
Free People.